Saturday, February 7th, 2009...9:57 am
Trade Season Tilt a Whirl: Twirl No. 3
This time around, I’m really starting to feel sick. Quick, lean to your left.
The Star Ledger’s Dave D’Allessandro:
…the Nets are - in fact - going to gauge whether there’s any interest in their most onerous contract right now.
Vince, of course. Yes, it seems unlikely that any owner can sign off on a 32-year-old guy making $33M the next two years without blushing, but it’s not impossible.
Two agents told us today that the Nets have talked to San Antonio, Cleveland, Chicago, and — really, one said this, and we don’t believe him - Toronto. Interesting choices, none of which fit into your “perfect world” scenario.
Spurs: They are contemplating whether Vince puts them over the top in the West, and the key component to any discussion would be Roger Mason ($3.5M) coming East. But the SA payroll is very top-heavy, so that makes it very complicated: They’d have to pile on some contracts to make it add up, and not even throwing in Bruce Bowen ($4.0) and Michael Finley ($2.5) would accomplish that. Still, at least one side believes some creative accounting can get it done (we doubt the Nets would also be able to land George Hill, a kid they like), though it would obviously involve a body count - probably with Bowen/Fin returning to the Alamo after the Nets cut them.
I’ll admit that this one takes me by surprise. And on first pass, it doesn’t appeal to me. Not at all.
Set aside Carter’s checkered past (he is the anti-Ginobili in terms of spirit), and just take a look at that contract. It’s a lot to stomach. It flies in the face of San Antonio’s current cap strategy. It’s like taking in a drunk, jobless friend who just needs a chance to get it straight. He has promise, “if only…” You can sweet talk your wife all you want, but she’s not stupid. She knows the score.
Each season the Spurs are involved in at least one fantastic rumor that just screams, “manufactured to create buzz.” We’re still two and half weeks out from the deadline, but I’ve already filed this one into that category. Still, let’s suspend disbelief for a moment.
Carter would give the Spurs the best backcourt in the league. His ability to slide between wing positions when Ginobili and Parker are on the court would create innumerable defensive problems for opposing teams-and, by opposing teams, I really only care about Los Angeles, Boston and Cleveland. The San Antonio Spurs have quietly remade themselves into a more potent offensive team this season, and adding Carter would seem to ice those efforts. Carter has legit size for a shooting guard, something the Spurs lack. His 3 ball is reliable, so the team could maintain it’s interior, let Timmeh go to work, spacing. VC’s best defensive asset would be his offense-in other words, James, Bryant, and Allen/Pierce would have to work on defense against the Spurs. The days of Kobe Bryant hanging out in the corner with Bruce Bowen will have passed.
If the Spurs move in this direction they would open up several roster spots, and so the notion of Bowen or Finley returning after being cut is attractive. (A quick note about the the body count: to my knowledge, Finley’s contract includes a clause that would require him to sign off on any trade, much like the situation the Mavs encountered last season with Devean George.) In addition to this, the Spurs only have 2.1 left under the cap. They’d have to be creative with that cash, too.
Just for kicks and giggles, an unthinkable and ugly 6 for 2, following D’Allesandro, would look something like this. Oberto’s 2009/10 contract is not fully guaranteed (only 1.9), so you would expect the Nets to waive him, as well. Vince Carter is a lot to give up for Roger Mason Jr. and the chance to rid oneself of Sean Williams. That, and a ferry boat full of free agent cash.
23 Comments
February 7th, 2009 at 11:34 am
Okay, so basically we’d upgrade Mason to Vince Carter. I’d do that trade, if we can sign up Bowen, Oberto and Finley back. Thing is, wouldn’t be have to do that with only the 2.1 left? How does that work, if we plan to stay beneath the cap?
February 7th, 2009 at 11:42 am
The short answer is you can’t resign all those guys. Also, you have to expect that at least one attractive veteran will force a buy out between now and the end of the month. If that’s the case, the Spurs don’t want to lock up, say, Oberto when Joe Smith might be available. I’m just throwing out a name, but you get the idea.
February 7th, 2009 at 1:31 pm
Wow…I’m absolutely speechless. I know they’re just rumors, but are the Spurs this desperate to make a move or are they just the attractive option to bring up in every deal, because of the fact that they’re looking for help?
February 7th, 2009 at 1:47 pm
If Phoenix is willing to trade with a rival, why don’t we just go get Amare? If anybody can do it, Steve can. Then let Bruce walk so he can come back…
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/features/traderesult?players=3041~1727~83~2805~846~866~874&teams=24~24~21~21~21~21~21&te=&cash=
February 7th, 2009 at 2:45 pm
If we can get Carter AND Sean Williams, this trade is a must-do. Sean Williams fills the void of a shot blocking, rebounding 4 - I know he’s a major headcase but with a strong locker-room like the Spurs, he will have a chance to change. His talent is undeniable. Now only if Rod Thorn bites! By the way Carter has been playing really well this year with a PER above 20.
February 7th, 2009 at 3:31 pm
Great post, good commentary. My gut reaction is not to pull the trigger on this deal. While I trust the San Antonio’s management, I’m not sure the benefit is worth the cost in this one. Carter has been playing well and adding him to the Big 3 is a pretty exciting thought, but the contract is large, he’s 32 and somewhat injury prone, and there’s a greater need (albeit scarcer supply) for a big.
February 7th, 2009 at 3:54 pm
I don’t know fellas im not as hyped on the idea of vince as yall are. and on the note of pulling stat from phx I feel that he is not committed to defense to be a spur. and if he wants to be the focal point of any team he’d be further down the list in sa than in phx…
February 7th, 2009 at 4:16 pm
The Spurs would no doubt ask for CDR and for some of the Nets’ young big men in return. Add Boone and throw in a Mahinmi/Splitter swap for Lopez and the Spurs aren’t left so shorthanded.
If the Spurs don’t trade Finley, an expiring contract of $2m would allow the Spurs to spend the full MLE on a player like Ariza or David Lee without going over the luxury tax, which is an actual possibility in this economy, especially with teams looking towards 2010.
I wouldn’t be opposed to a Parker/Harris swap either to help make salaries work- Harris is cheaper, younger, and a better defender than Parker and would play well with George Hill and guard 2s. Not sure who would balk first at that one.
February 7th, 2009 at 4:30 pm
Latin_D, good point, but is Oberto a deal-breaker?
….”Attractive veteran who could force a buy-out” is something I know little about….Who could do this, could ‘Sheed?
John, great point, the Spurs are on the radar as a team hungry to deal. This is all shooting the bull, but I doubt Kerr can keep his job if he trades with Spurs without a third party team.
Jimbo, I agree with you. This isn’t Manu trade talk Vincanity. With VC, the Spurs could make a run at the Lakers for the #1 offense in the league. It’s just more money than we’ve ever spent before.
This Carter trade rumor signals a couple of things. First, the Spurs are actively shopping to win this year, instead of just hoping for things like Rasheed possibilities this summer. Secondly, Roger Mason is at the height of his street cred right now. Mason is not a “Big Three” level type of guy; he wasn’t with the Wiz and wasn’t the other night in his Denver showcase.
You can argue that Carter is overpaid, but you can’t seriously say Mason is better. You can’t even say that in the future we could expect more from Mason. I followed a link off the mysanantonio.com Spurs page where a blogger mentioned that Mason will help in the post-Duncan Era and that Rasheed would be a locker room cancer. Both of these statements could not be further from the truth.
The thing is, I don’t see it happening, because in the end it means significantly less money for two players with Pop’s ear, Finley and Bowen.
The concept of Vince as a cap killer was mentioned. Sometimes, I think some teams put too much stock into salary cap space. Their city and team are not attractive to the top players. For instance, Memphis said they traded Gasol for cap space, but what star did they sign in his place? Varner, would you comment on this, because I really don’t see Spurs landing a superstar (besides Ginobili) in 2010?
February 7th, 2009 at 4:37 pm
Nico, that’s an excellent point, Stat immaturely wants to be “the man” somewhere, which is funny because so did Marion. They could have gotten KG at one point, now who will the Suns get for Amare?
February 7th, 2009 at 4:47 pm
Oberto? Definitely not a deal breaker, of course. He’s averaging 13.7 mpg this season, and I imagine that number would be lower if we consider the games since he returned from injury.
My worry is, where’s the breaking point? Taken individually, none of the players included in those trades is truly important for the Spurs’ long term plans, or ever this season’s championship run (because I really think the days of Kobe/LeBron-slowing are in the past for Bruce). However, as a whole, they do comprise a team that no matter what some ESPN analysts may claim, is currently among the best 5 or 6 in the league. How many scrubs can you give away or replace in a cockamamie trade before either our chemistry or the talent balance comes undone?
I doubt the Spurs would do this kind of trade. It’s not the FO’s style, I believe.
February 7th, 2009 at 4:58 pm
I’m surprised most of you are interested in Carter. He is exactly the anti-spur type of player. Big ego, no commitment to defense, actually no commitment to anything but himself. Has everyone forgot how he quit on the Raptors AND on the Nets! I would think this twice even if he came at a bargain price, both on the trade and salary cap wise.
ChillFan: I agree about small market teams foolishly think cap space means big time players will be racing each other to sign with them, but the Spurs are a very successful small market team and you can’t compare them to Memphis and OKC. Also, as long as they have the big 3 or even with TD and TP, they wouldn’t need another superstar, just a c0uple of above average players like Mason is now.
February 7th, 2009 at 5:00 pm
In my first twirl around the rumor mill circus, I discussed Nick Collison. Taking on his contract would hurt the Spurs future cap, but it’s not as crippling as Carter. That’s the phrase to use with Carter: potentially crippling contract. The size of his contract gives me great pause, not his position or past. I’d be fine adding someone of his talent, even if it cost Mason or didn’t fill an immediate need. In this case, I actually think it does fill an immediate need. Since before the season, I’ve said the Spurs needed another big and wing who could put the ball on the floor and score. Carter can definitely do the the latter. But his contract is massive. There is a reason why New Jersey is the unenviable position of giving him away. Hold onto all that for a moment.
I’m in favor of the Spurs doing what they can to win now, even if that means throwing the 2010 strategy overboard. I think there is an outside chance of landing either Chris Bosh or Joe Johnson that summer, but it’s remote. And then there is the issue of Manu’s extension.
In short, if the Spurs could land an impact player, then I think they should do it. My take on Carter is that his impact will begin to dwindle almost immediately while his contract continues to increase. I’m not sure he’s worth it. He might be, but, given my mood at the moment, I don’t think I would pull the trigger. Of course, adding Carter would give San Antonio even odds with everyone else to win the title this season.
If they did this, it would be suicide to include George Hill. The Spurs will be reduced to filling out most of their roster on rookie or vet minimum salaries for the rest of Carter’s tenure. They’ll need all the overachieving young talent they can assemble to have anything approaching a bench. In other words, Mahinmi, Hill, Hairston, Gist, etc…
February 7th, 2009 at 5:02 pm
Daniel,
Help me. Why is there no doubt the Spurs would ask for CDR?
February 7th, 2009 at 5:03 pm
The Spurs aren’t on any conversations regarding Stoudemire.
February 7th, 2009 at 5:05 pm
The Spurs would send Sean Williams to Austin, methinks.
February 7th, 2009 at 7:19 pm
Juan, thanks for your hilarious take on Carter. At the same time, Mason and some average players around our Big3 are exactly the reason for all this trade talk in the first place.
Latin_D, you speak the truth about Spurs chemistry. But even the HEB commercials are funnier when we are champions.
Daniel, you lost me at Parker for Devin Harris straight up. Its probably been discussed ad nauseum before, but TP’s improved and she’s really, really hot.
I’m not saying Vince is the second coming, I’m just saying its encouraging that the Spurs are considering it.
February 7th, 2009 at 7:30 pm
Seems like a huge risk!
Does Pop really wanna stand in a huddle mid season and say this again “Who are you guys?”!!
February 8th, 2009 at 2:44 am
I sure hope this trade doesn’t happen. Carter is not the type of player who can make a team-first type of commitment. I absolutely hate the idea of this thread, he’s a franchise wrecker à la Marbury, Francis and other supposedly talented guys who never do much more than being locker room cancers.
Actually, I really don’t see why the Spurs should obsess on adding a big name on their roster (as in the Carter, Wallace or Stoudemire trade scenarios), they don’t need a “big 4″ (who does?), what they need is to upgrade a few contracts that are currently worthless for the team, e.g. Bowen, Oberto, Udoka - these guys have almost nothing to contribute. What the Spurs need are good role players, not another super star, especially not a me-first type of guy.
February 8th, 2009 at 8:24 am
1. The trade machine proposal you offered in the last paragraph succeeds without Michael Finley in the mix.
2. Sean Williams does not seem to be a Popovich guy (I could be wrong). So if you take Williams off your proposal and include Jarvis Hayes; the trade succeeds.
3. There is a something missing in all of these ‘trade machine’ plays. The Spurs still own the rights to Robert Horry and Horry has not put in his retirement papers with the NBA.
The big trade last season between NJ Nets and Dallas Mavs included Keith Van Horn in a sign and trade. It was a paper trade as Van Horn never came out of retirement and showed up to the Nets.
The big trade last season between the LA Lakers and Memphis Grizzlies included Aaron McKie in a sign and trade. It was a paper trade as well because McKie (an asst coach with 76ers) didn’t report to the Grizz.
You can read more about the hows and whys here
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/20/sports/basketball/20vanhorn.html?fta=y
So while everyone is playing GM with the Trade Machine; keep in mind there are scenarios that can be made outside the confines of the Trade Machine.
Oh, and Go Spurs Go!
February 8th, 2009 at 5:09 pm
we trading “big shot rog” already? lol
he’s knockin down 3’s like the jackson boys (jaren and stephen) during 2 of our championship years!
February 8th, 2009 at 11:54 pm
Jimbo said: “Sean Williams fills the void of a shot blocking, rebounding 4 - I know he’s a major headcase but with a strong locker-room like the Spurs, he will have a chance to change. His talent is undeniable.”
I dunno, this scenario didn’t work so well for the Spurs in the past. Rodman’s antics distracted the Spurs out of the 94-95 playoffs, and despite Rodman pulling down about 17 rebounds a game in the two seasons he was with the Spurs, I’m having a hard time figuring out whether the Spurs were better off for having had Rodman on the team at all.
And just for fun, here’s a link to a pretty cool highlight mix of Rodman: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icJLs4t0lLo
February 9th, 2009 at 9:19 am
[...] their credit, one of our readers, Cyn, included these remarks under the last Tilt a Whirl post: There is a something missing in all of these ‘trade machine’ plays. The Spurs still own the [...]
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