Monday, June 1st, 2009...4:43 am
Offseason Breakdown: Small Forward
The one spot on the Spurs roster that deserves a stick of dynamite is small forward. The frontcourt needs work, but the type of work that merely adds to a solid core. You understand this. You’ve left a hundred comments amen-ing the sentiment. The reconstruction of the Spurs’ wing is not an easy project. Essentially, the Spurs need to replace Bruce Bowen’s defense, add another ball handler, find someone who can score off the dribble and has three point range.
At this point, you should be laughing. Doesn’t every team want a player like that? And of course it would really help if said player were Hedo Turkoglu long. But while it’s not an easy project, it’s not an impossible one either.
It’s easy to see that combination of skills and toss your arms to the sky in a hopeless exhale. When players like that come along, teams lock them up with big contracts. The sort of contracts the Spurs can’t afford apart from landing a cap crushing salary dump. But don’t despair.
It’s not inconceivable that the Spurs simply hit reset on their small forward situation. They can do this by trading Bruce Bowen’s semi-expiring deal (or waiving it) and letting Ime Udoka walk. That would leave only Mike Finley as a SF reserve, assuming he opts in for the final season of his contract.
As I’ve thought about the Spurs wing situation, I’ve become increasingly hopeful. Why? Well, the Spurs do not have to arrive at their final destination overnight, they just have to start moving in that direction. If they can find one player this offseason who improves their wing rotation, then they’ve gone a long way. He doesn’t have to be a perfect composite of all the things listed above, but he needs to bring a couple of those characteristics. Adding depth behind such a player would then become a high priority, but the Spurs can show patience in that process. This is the first reason not to worry.
The second reason is that the Spurs should have plenty of options this offseason—the summer is setting up nicely for San Antonio. I would be amazed if the Spurs went into next fall without having made at least one significant move toward small forward recovery. And I suspect they’ll have taken two large steps on that front, one through trade or free agency and the other through the draft. Let me explain.
The Spurs are walking into an offseason that presents a perfect storm of possibility. Think about it. The price on free agents is coming down due to a hard economy and the ever present class of 2010 looming large in the background. Teams won’t want to spend. And some of those same teams will want to rid themselves of overpaid but otherwise useful players. This combination puts the Spurs in a good spot-they’ll have opportunities to improve through the trade market or in free agency, if they want.
I’m not going to pretend to know which direction the Spurs will choose, whether they’ll make a bold move or cleverly refine the edges. Personally, I like some of the oft-discussed bold move scenarios, and others not so much. The same is true of more subtle refinements. I’m stating the obvious, but it depends on who we are talking about and how much they cost.
But I came away from the Combine with a sense of optimism about the offseason ahead. The Spurs should be able to pull a decent Austin-bound prospect out of this draft. If they move into the first round, as recent rumors suggest, they could land a player who gets a shot at meaningful minutes next season.
So, I’m not going to include a list of players in this post. I’ll let you do that in the comments, and for good reason. Rather than publish the laundry list-one that ranges from Vince Carter to Tyler Smith, and stops at all points in between-I’ll let you talk it through. How do you think the Spurs should fix their small forward situation? Your conversation will demonstrate my point: they have plenty of opportunities to improve themselves at wing. There is reason for optimism.
65 Comments
June 1st, 2009 at 6:16 am
Good points. I would be on the side of getting a youngish guy. I think Carter would be nice, as would several other guys, but would he really work? He might, but I’d rather have a guy that can be molded into what the Spurs need. Carter isn’t that guy. He’s a chucker.
I’d like to see a young SF free agent or a draftee come in a see some solid minutes and produce. Granted, this means more time of lower quality play, but I think it’d be better than blowing a large chunk of cap space on a filler like Carter.
June 1st, 2009 at 6:16 am
Im going to make a suggestion for a small forward that almost fits all this criteria…Trevor Ariza…your thoughts
June 1st, 2009 at 6:24 am
As you mentioned there are a variety of options. I prepared a list of free agent players (only) who could be in the mix for the Spurs small foward position. http://theorangerock.blogspot.com/2009/06/spurs-potential-fix-for-small-foward.html
June 1st, 2009 at 6:39 am
Wondering about thoughts on Pietrus from Orlando. Obviously, the Magic don’t want him gone, but he seems a defender in Bowen’s mold, and is comfortable taking that corner three.
June 1st, 2009 at 7:24 am
4 players off the top of my head:
Marvin Williams
Marquis Daniels
Josh Childress
Walter Herrmann
I’m also fairly certain that a combination of Bowen’s expiring contract plus maybe Roger Mason and/or Matt Bonner would be able to net us something. If I were completely idealistic I’d say Tayshaun Prince or maybe Wilson Chandler and Jared Jeffries’s contract.
June 1st, 2009 at 8:32 am
Personally, my perfect storm is for the Spurs to grow internally, with one of their Toro investments making it as the SF of the future. They have invested much time and effort in making the Toro’s their minor league team, and thus far, there has been no payout. I think this is the perfect time for that payout.
June 1st, 2009 at 8:47 am
Linas Kleiza in free agency? He has great 3 point range and can create his own shot.
June 1st, 2009 at 9:19 am
The Spurs didn’t have enough trading power at the trade deadline to get Miller and Salmons from Sacramento but Chicago may look to move Salmons (29 years old) who is on a 3 year deal and well worth 6 million next year. He defends and shoots the 3 and we have plenty of expiring contracts. Derrick Rose will need to renegotiate in 2010 and Chicago is likely to look for a big time star like Amare. Luol Deng (24 years old) also has a 5 or 6 year contract. Both of these options are big commitments but they would both be major upgrades in the ever shrinking Duncan window.
I’ve heard his name a few places but Grant Hill can still shoot especially if TP/TD are getting him great looks. He is a smart, high character player who would be a good leader at that spot with a draft pick behind him. He is set to make only $2 million next year which is much cheaper than other options.
Another option could be trading for Gerald Wallace (26 years old). Larry Brown and MJ have been incredibly active trading and Gerald Wallace has the length and athleticism we need. He gets to the foul line at a good rate (.56 FTA/FGA). He is expensive but not Carter/Jefferson expensive and he would help win now. A year playing for Brown has to be helpful before coming to Pop’s defense too.
June 1st, 2009 at 10:37 am
If the goal is to try to maintain our 2010 cap space, I like the Grant Hill and Marquis Daniels suggestions (only if he would sign a 1-year deal, or a longer-term deal with a team option for the second year). They do a little bit of everything, including handling the ball as needed. I think Hill especially might be available — if Amare is already talking about moving on next summer and Nash is serious about wanting an extension to start at $14million/year, Phoenix very well might decide to blow things up this summer.
In terms of younger players, I haven’t seem him play much, but what are your thoughts on Malik Hairston as a role player that might fit a need without adding a big contract? He D’s up well, and his offensive numbers were surprisingly quite good in the D-League last year (53%FG, 44% 3-pt, 5.5 RPG, 3.7 assists).
June 1st, 2009 at 11:18 am
Other guys available that might fit the swing position need (Disclaimers: 1. These suggestions do nothing to help us get much younger — they’re geared more toward making the most of our championship window in a cost-effective manner. 2. On some of these suggestions, I’m going out on a limb as a brainstorming exercise — they’re just for thought & to generate discussion if you find them interesting):
FREE AGENTS:
Dahntay Jones — Denver will likely try to keep him, but he’s unrestricted
TRADES (ALL 2010 CAP FRIENDLY):
Mike Miller — Given that he refused to shoot the ball much last year, it seems like maybe he doesn’t want to play in Minnesota. Depending on who the Wolves draft and how badly they’re doing financially, there’s an off chance that our two partially guaranteed deals plus a small contract would be enough to land him given that his play last season probably drove his trade value down.
Mo Evans — If Atlanta wants to shed a contract so they can resign Williams, Childress, and/or Pachulia, maybe they’d be willing to just give Evans away for a partially guaranteed deal. He’s not a great defender, but his shooting might help us on some nights when our offense becomes stagnant.
Shaun Livingston — This idea is probably crazy, but he’s 6’7″ and has a great basketball IQ. If he’s having trouble readjusting after his injury as a PG, could he play minutes for us at SF, where he wouldn’t have to try to stay in front of lightening-quick guards 6″ shorter than him on D? Imagine having him, Tony, and Manu on the floor all at once, though — all 3 can pass and drive. He’d also double as the veteran, back-up PG, so we’d be filling 2 needs with one player. Would it be worth the gamble given that he has a minimum salary contract?
June 1st, 2009 at 12:21 pm
Didn’t Grant Hill say he’d retire if he didn’t return as a Sun?
I actually would go for Jamario Moon before Gerald Wallace.
June 1st, 2009 at 12:39 pm
Hairston should be considered. Finley can still play and would be a great backup in limited minutes. Marvin Willams would look good in Spurs uni. Here’s a thought what about Trevor Ariza he’s improving and young.
June 1st, 2009 at 1:18 pm
Jonas Jerebko is a player that seems like he’d be perfect for the spurs. not quite the best player offensively, but he’s a great role player, he’d fit in perfectly with this team.
June 1st, 2009 at 1:20 pm
Great discussion, the RealKMan thanks for your list. Joe I like that you want to win now. Lots of possibilities out there,
but it’s best to try to seperate the players YOU NAMED into functional categories, namely
1) Unrealistic:
I don’t see Spurs offering Ariza, Artest, Marion, Lee, Odom, Turkoglu more money than another team. Or its hard to gauge the Wolves’ price tag for a Mike Miller trade. The Magic like Pietrus just as much as everyone else.
2) Diamonds in the Rough,
Bulls’ John Salmons, Gerald Wallace, the Hawk’s small forwards, Singleton with Mavs, Jamario Moon, Walter Herman and then the
3) Deals we will be complaining about next year:
Here’s where I’d put Grant Hill, Dante Jones, the Shawn Livingston suggestion, Marquis Daniels and Vince Carter (don’t get me wrong I wanted Vince, but not at the Nets’ “Jason Kidd price” and he’ll be another year older).
So my question is, who is on your NO, HELL NO list?
For me, Odom, MDaniels, Dante Jones and Marion top the N,HN list.
June 1st, 2009 at 1:25 pm
Also, Sam, you are accurate in your assessment that the Spurs should not ignore a roster spot for Austin, I like Hairston, but right now the SF position requires experienced help.
June 1st, 2009 at 2:28 pm
With the amount of Lakers tape that Pop must watch there is no way the Spurs would go for Odom (thankfully). He commits too many blunders / mental errors to fit into Pops rotation.
How about Austin Nichols? He is the French League MVP, the guy can obviously ball.
I’d trade for Tayshaun Prince, Josh Childress, or Richard Jefferson if the price is right.
I’d say hell no to Gerald Wallace, Mike Miller, and Odom,
June 1st, 2009 at 2:32 pm
Finley has been below average for a while, but his regression has been modest, and in fact he actually had his best season as a Spur last year, at least in my opinion. That said, I expect him to really “jump the shark” next year and fall off worse than Bruce did.
Given that our current situation is so miserable, I appreciate the optimism in that we can’t get any worse. But for the moment, we’re still terrible at the 3 spot. I’d rather save money and roll the dice on Gist and Hairston for the first half of the season and then if they don’t show anything worthwhile, try to see what we can get at the trade deadline. I realize the Summer is the time to deal with our expiring contracts, and if we can get a quality player then there’s nothing wrong with that.
But getting Vince Carter? That seems to be the wrong gamble. I’d rather hope for progress than pray against inevitable decline and resulting salary cap anxiety.
(Editors: where can we start a discussion on the Toros? I’m curious about the idea of the Spurs trying to get a European coach to teach the Toros. I realize we have Snyder who won an award, but I think the D League would be a GREAT place to test a full-on European coach for the NBA. (Besides, I still consider Snyder’s hiring to be a result of connections more than anything else.)
What better place to bring over a European coach than with SA? Pop loves to send players (like Gist) to Europe for seasoning. Why not try to replicate that experience in Austin even more? I realize this sounds outlandish to many, but why not a bold experiment? Anyway, just an idea. I’m curious if this idea has been discussed here before and what others thought. Obviously we could still send players to Europe, but if the goal is to re-train Americans with European skills then why not push it further? All the talk about D League players learning the Spurs “system” hasn’t seen results yet, at least in my opinion.)
June 1st, 2009 at 2:50 pm
Here’s my big idea for the coming season. I say that we do as little as possible until we have an opportunity to cash in on a “lop-sided dump” trade.
From my perspective, that is the new trade jack-pot (it probably always has been) in the NBA. Look back over the last few years; when a player has become restless and demanded a trade for whatever reason, or the Franchise has decided to go another direction and clean house of talent at bargain basement rates, the teams that benefit from the resultant trades have consistently gone on to major improvements if not titles. See: Rasheed Wallace to Detroit, Pau Gasol to Los Angeles, Chauncey Billups to Denver.
For whatever reason, one or two very lop-sided trades happen every season. With everyone all a titter over the 2010 free agents, there are bound to be some short-sighted moves by struggling GMs. So what better time to have a huge stock-pile of expiring contracts.
Amare Staudamire is the most obvious example of a A-list (marginally, I think) player who is likely to be moved with little recompense. I’m big on Gerald Wallace too, and wouldn’t be surprised to see him moved in this way.
Anyway, my main point is when you make moves in the off-season, it may affect your chance of landing one of the lop-sided deals mid-season.
June 1st, 2009 at 3:26 pm
Gist showed with a > 40 % 3 pt percentage that he can shoot. We know he can run, jump, dunk, and block shots from the weak side. I expect he can defend the wing which means we need to get him here!
June 1st, 2009 at 4:56 pm
[...] permalink Offseason Breakdown: Small Forward The one spot on the Spurs roster that deserves a stick of dynamite is small forward. The frontcourt needs work, but the type of work that merely adds to a solid core. You understand this. You’ve left a hundred comments amen-ing the sentiment. The reconstruction of the Spurs’ wing is not an easy project. Essentially, the Spurs need to replace Bruce Bowen’s defense, add another ball handler, find someone who can score off the dribble and has three point range. At this point, you should be laughing. Doesn’t every team want a player like that? And of course it would really help if said player were Hedo Turkoglu long. But while it’s not an easy project, it’s not an impossible one either. It’s easy to see that combination of skills and toss your arms to the sky in a hopeless exhale. When players like that come along, teams lock them up with big contracts. The sort of contracts the Spurs can’t afford apart from landing a cap crushing salary dump. But don’t despair. It’s not inconceivable that the Spurs simply hit reset on their small forward situation. They can do this by trading Bruce Bowen’s semi-expiring deal (or waiving it) and letting Ime Udoka walk. That would leave only Mike Finley as a SF reserve, assuming he opts in for the final season of his contract. As I’ve thought about the Spurs wing situation, I’ve become increasingly hopeful. Why? Well, the Spurs do not have to arrive at their final destination overnight, they just have to start moving in that direction. If they can find one player this offseason who improves their wing rotation, then they’ve gone a long way. He doesn’t have to be a perfect composite of all the things listed above, but he needs to bring a couple of those characteristics. Adding depth behind such a player would then become a high priority, but the Spurs can show patience in that process. This is the first reason not to worry. The second reason is that the Spurs should have plenty of options this offseason—the summer is setting up nicely for San Antonio. I would be amazed if the Spurs went into next fall without having made at least one significant move toward small forward recovery. And I suspect they’ll have taken two large steps on that front, one through trade or free agency and the other through the draft. Let me explain. The Spurs are walking into an offseason that presents a perfect storm of possibility. Think about it. The price on free agents is coming down due to a hard economy and the ever present class of 2010 looming large in the background. Teams won’t want to spend. And some of those same teams will want to rid themselves of overpaid but otherwise useful players. This combination puts the Spurs in a good spot-they’ll have opportunities to improve through the trade market or in free agency, if they want. I’m not going to pretend to know which direction the Spurs will choose, whether they’ll make a bold move or cleverly refine the edges. Personally, I like some of the oft-discussed bold move scenarios, and others not so much. The same is true of more subtle refinements. I’m stating the obvious, but it depends on who we are talking about and how much they cost. But I came away from the Combine with a sense of optimism about the offseason ahead. The Spurs should be able to pull a decent Austin-bound prospect out of this draft. If they move into the first round, as recent rumors suggest, they could land a player who gets a shot at meaningful minutes next season. So, I’m not going to include a list of players in this post. I’ll let you do that in the comments, and for good reason. Rather than publish the laundry list-one that ranges from Vince Carter to Tyler Smith, and stops at all points in between-I’ll let you talk it through. How do you think the Spurs should fix their small forward situation? Your conversation will demonstrate my point: they have plenty of opportunities to improve themselves at wing. There is reason for optimism. http://www.48minutesofhell.com/2009/…small-forward/ [...]
June 1st, 2009 at 5:37 pm
Clark: Amen on Gist.
I’m also pretty well sold on Kleiza and Herrmann as prospective Spurs.
June 1st, 2009 at 5:54 pm
Hollywood,
Pop and the Spurs send players to Europe because the competition is better and they get paid better. Can you imagine a player of Manu’s skill playing in the D-League for 30-60k a year or whatever they are paid? And yes, I know Manu is probably the most extreme example.
June 1st, 2009 at 6:24 pm
Kleiza - big yes from me after watching him for a few seasons.
Ariza - as a player, I say yes. As a contract, I am leery. I really hate the idea of signing a player after he’s had potentially a career-defining season. He’s not a high-skill player, and while his athleticism would be worth many points and many plays, I think that there is someone equally talented who has yet to break out. Pop and RC have proven time and time again that they can find that guy (think Mason this year).
June 1st, 2009 at 6:33 pm
I would love to see Prince come in, but that said isn’t Demarcus Nelson someone who has been described as a point forward? Is he big enough to give strong minutes at the wing spot? Is he a solid enough defender.
I’m with a few of the above guys who would like to see the growth of some of this in house talent. Hairston, Nelson, Gist and possibly bringing in Austin Nichols (who sounds like a wonderful prospect).
Miller is just not good enough athletically/defensively to fill that niche, though i am intrigued by G.Wallace. He is a wrecking ball and stuffs the stat sheet, and plays good D, I am just very very wary of his inury history.
Salmons is a good fit but his not long term, the next contract he hunts for will be his last one, and it is doubtful he will be looking at a price that the spurs will want to pay. He is also more of a ball stopper than a ball mover.
In a perfect world give me Hedo.
June 1st, 2009 at 6:34 pm
I like Childress for the full mid level. It’s realistic and serves a number of purposes. He’d fit in that he’s a glue guy as was seen in Atlanta, where he hustles and does all the things that coaches love. The Hawks would be unlikely to match as they have a glut at the SF and if they did, you go straight out and offer Marvin the money.
June 1st, 2009 at 6:46 pm
Great organizational and summary post, ChillFan. I agree with all of the guys you listed as unreasonable (with the exception of Mike Miller — if you say he’s an unreasonable goal while 2 others on the list think they’d never want him, I’m inclined to think that his ‘objective’ value is somewhere in the middle, assuming Minnesota wants to save some money next year). I’d also add a few more names to the unreasonable list, and here’s why:
A point on the Hawks’ forwards — I think that either one of them would look great in a Spurs uniform; however, I don’t think that Atlanta is scared of teams like us that can offer those guys just the full mid-level exception. Both are restricted FAs, and I think the Hawks would simply match a MLE offer for either of them. I just don’t see those guys as being realistic targets for us, especially if it means that we’d be on the hook for 2 weeks or so waiting to hear whether the Hawks would match. I don’t recall our front office ever gambling on restricted FAs in recent memory; it just doesn’t seem like something they’d go for if they have other options on the table.
I also doubt that the Bulls will make John Salmons available. If I understand his contract situation correctly, he’s the one good swing player they have right now that doesn’t interfere with their 2010 cap plan. They seem pretty close to getting their books in line for next summer — if they can move either Deng or Hinrich without resigning Gordon, they’ll have the space they need. It might be worth it to make the phone call to see whether he’s available, but I don’t think anything would come of it.
Regarding Gerald Wallace, I agree with Jaceman and Duaneofly. I don’t think he’d be a great fit, especially not at that price tag. His style of D strikes me as not being the same kind of D we emphasize — he’s more of a gambler who plays passing lanes and tries to swat every shot that’s near him rather than bodying up and staying in front of his man. He also seems to be one reckless play away from a career-altering injury, which would kill our cap for years to come.
June 1st, 2009 at 7:11 pm
My point with Salmons and I mentioned Deng was that Chicago has every other deal besides Hinrich coming off the books by 2010. So thats a lot of players they will have to renegotiate to keep like Rose, Thomas, and Noah plus if they decide to keep Gordon. Deng and Salmons tie up ~16 million dollars a year so they may look to move one of them.
Bushka,
The great thing about Salmons is we don’t have to worry about the long term. He has a 3 year deal which locks him in for the Duncan window and then we can either resign him or let him walk when we try to sign another big star when Duncan retires. Salmon way over performs his 6.5 million a year. But he is so good I would understand Chicago keeping him.
He fits just about every need we have which is why I bring him up even if he is a longshot. He is a physical, tough defender. He can be physical on offense and take it out to the three (>40%) and he can play the big time minutes we need him to (especially if Duncan/Manu are going to be resting on back to backs).
June 1st, 2009 at 7:16 pm
Scattershot response to some of the comments:
Vince Carter is an expensive player, but he’s a game-changer. As David Thorpe would say, he’s a special talent.
Ariza isn’t much of a shooter. I’m not sure if he’d fit the system.
Pietrus is under contract and I can’t see any scenario wherein the Magic move him.
I love the ideas of Childress or Williams, but I don’t think the Knicks would part with Chandler.
Toros payout coming shortly, I assure you.
Kleiza is a good fit and he isn’t-he’s not known for playing good defense.
Gerald Wallace is too injury prone, to put it mildly.
Mike Miller is a smart suggestion. Very plausible target.
I suspect Hairston will be in the mix as a reserve wing.
Jerebko profile forthcoming. He and James Gist both play for Biella. I’m sure the Spurs have had plenty of opportunity to scout him.
Gist is a power forward.
DeMarcus Nelson is a point. Marcus Williams is a point forward. They were both Toros last season.
June 1st, 2009 at 7:17 pm
Good stuff, therealkman.
June 1st, 2009 at 7:23 pm
One downside to Salmons is he is an emotionally guy. I’ve heard several times before and either Tim or Graydon posted on here once as well, is that when he isn’t a starter he gets pissy.
Since Pop has no problem yelling at or benching players who goof up, I don’t think Salmons would work out well for us
June 1st, 2009 at 7:44 pm
BlaseE, I think that Salmons is a great suggestion if we can get him. I think the argument about whether Chicago would want to move him or keep him in relation to the 2010 cap issue might be a glass half full/half empty problem. You’re right — if they want to keep all of their young guys, too, they’ll be lucky to resign everyone in the same summer. On the other hand, having as many contracts as possible expire in one summer frees up the kind of cap space that lets you sign 1, if not more, all-nba caliber FAs. The impression I’ve gotten based on what I’ve read is that Chicago has been trying to clear cap space rather than keep guys under long-term contract. However, if they’re able to land Bosh or Amare in a trade this summer so that they don’t have to wait until next summer, then I agree that your argument for why they might move Salmons over Deng in a deal with us makes a lot of sense.
June 1st, 2009 at 7:51 pm
Actually you have changed my mind on Salmons. If he could mould himself into the teams ethos & style he would be the perfect fit and retain a lot of value in terms of his contract.
June 1st, 2009 at 8:12 pm
I’ve listened in on a lot of conversation regarding Salmons. I’m a closet kings fan (my little bit on the side you might say), and retain an interest in the bulls as well and he was broken down and critiqued endlessly on Sactownroyalty and consequently blogabull.
Just to clarify. He is not really “pissy” as a reserve, he is just not as effective as a reserve. His other weakness statistically is that he is a poor rebounder for his position and is not necessarily a spot up shooter.
He is a great man defender however. Has a tendancey to over dribble and stop the offensive flow even though it is a productive thing in terms of his scoring. I think he is a very smart player though and would be able to mould himself into a spurs style. If he does that he brings D, scoring, and a decent 3 ball.
All for as pointed out the bargain budget price of $6 million bucks.
Chicago has to trade him in my opinion. They are not in win the title now mode with the team they have, and by the time they are Rose will be needing extending, and Salmons will be ready for his payday.
June 2nd, 2009 at 8:07 am
One player I always wanted the Spurs to get is Eduardo Nájera. He is a gritty defender, hustles more than anyone in the league, he is a below average defensive rebounder for his position but a great offensive rebounder and for the last few seasons, he has been able to shoot the 3. He doesn’t need the ball at all to get his points and despite his size he usually guards the other team low post scorer. Something like a cheaper, not-so-young version of a young Malik Rose with a longer range.
Maybe he is now too old now, but I would certainly like him better than Bonner.
June 2nd, 2009 at 9:09 am
Let me add a few names not mentioned in the comments:
As stated in the blog post, the ideal SF would be athletic, able to defend, shoot the 3, and create his own shot. Tall order.
Stars… Caron Butler and Andre Iguodala.
Is a trade for either conceivable? Would Washington take back Roger Mason (hometown boy?), Tiago Splitter (best center in Europe?), Bruce Bowen and Kurt Thomas (veterans with friendly contracts?) if they wind up drafting Jordan Hill and need to play Jamison at the 3? Does a new coach in Philly mean a new direction with Thaddeus Young and Elton Brand at the forward spots? Highly unlikely.
Additionally, while the scoring prowess of both players would be tremendous, neither would be able to spread the floor with the same 3-pt range as good ol’ Mike Finley. The Spurs would also be left with few assets to go after a big man to start ahead of Bonner (and need his ability to open the court even more).
Minny twins… Ryan Gomes and Rodney Carney.
If you knew Ryan Gomes scored >100 3-pointers last year, kudos to you. The dude’s got good size and an ability to play inside or out. Limited defender, but maybe some time under Pop and with Duncan (and Camby!) behind him, a defensive conversion? Also, great community guy. Unfortunately, he’s in the last year of a contract at an affordable $3.8M, and so he’s probably not going anywhere this summer, unless the T’Wolves decide to go with Carney. Minny needs a shooting guard who can handle the ball next to Foye - how about Mason? If Minny throws in their #28 pick, this trade starts to look good.
Carney is a free agent and did a few things last year to gain some attention. He’s a gamble - could muddle through a mediocre career without much motor, could be the next Trevor Ariza (toiled for 4 years before breaking out). He’s an athlete with 3-pt range that may just need to land in the right spot.
Horry resurrected… James Posey.
Posey has 3 more years at almost $7M/yr - that’ll blacklist a guy known as a spot player. The Hornets got flack for this contract, but is he not the perfect Spur? A great defender, a clutch veteran, a deadly 3-pt shooter, and a team-oriented player that would share the floor with the Big 3. Not young, but will compete during the Duncan era. Is there a 3 in the NBA (besides LeBron) better at hassling Dirk? If the cash-strapped Hornets can’t dump Peja (or Rasual Butler) how can they afford to keep Posey?
Side note: Rasual Butler is a very good 3-pt shooter and has decent length. He has a reasonable salary, may be a good fit on the wing, but wouldn’t be much of an upgrade over Finley (Spurs’ starting SF would still be ranked in the bottom 1/3 of the league).
Young, dumb, and…
Anthony Randolph. Clashed with Don Nelson, troublesome attitude, but teeming with talent. Hey, R.C. went after J.R. Smith… Would only be available if coupled with one of Golden State’s horrible contracts, and Jamal Crawford is the most dispensible with GSW’s glut of scoring guards. Despite Crawford’s a bad rap and bad contract, if he clicked could compete for 6thMOY. He’s a better offensive player than Mason, fair to call him an elite scorer. And Randolph would give the Spurs something they haven’t seen for a half dozen years: a big-time prospect.
And finally draft dreams… Victor Claver.
Similar length and skills to Randolph, but he can actually shoot the 3. Dare I say Kevin Durantesque? El Duranto? I’d be psyched if all the stars aligned and he fell to the Spurs in the draft, recovered completely from his injury, and made an easy dash from his European contract. Casspi has been getting great buzz and is probably more NBA-ready. I’ve seen very little of both of these guys, but the clips of Claver actually impress me more.
June 2nd, 2009 at 10:45 am
Potential talent in the league changes so quickly, that whenever one of you proposes someone EVEN I know about, its probably a bad idea.
Juan, back in the day, I liked Najera because he hustles, but his lucha libre style makes his eight NBA seasons seem longer. Bonner’s better.
Don’t the Rockets owe us one for the Luis Scola kindness? They can’t send a wing our way? A good deed never goes unpunished.
June 2nd, 2009 at 12:03 pm
Someone mentioned Jamario Moon…he isn’t outstanding but he is young and very cheap and a cheap risk could be our best option
This is just an shot in the dark not that the Clippers would bite.
Camby(who the FO really wants) and Al Thorton (incredibly athletic and young SF but needs Pop’s defensive coaching desperately) for Bowen or Finley, KT or Oberto, and Mason. Obviously, we’d rather Oberto go but KT is slightly more expensive and LA may want him more. Thorton played 38 mpg last season which helps and hurts his stats. Obviously more playing time is more points, rebounds, etc., but even being that young your efficiency has to come down playing 71 games of 38 minutes.
June 2nd, 2009 at 4:28 pm
Presurez, that was an excellent post, good players for the wish list. Posey would be a great fit, but I’m leary of his contract.
Presurez and BlaseE, I tip my hat to you that you are both seem to consider a frontcourt addition.
I’m venting randomly, but any franchise that trades with us is basically announcing that its forfeiting the coming season. There’s so much untradable weight on this roster; anyone who toyed with the ESPN trade machine understands other teams have to take back 4-5 of our players when trading an impact guy. Deep down, I feel little has changed with teams interest in Bowen, Finley, Bonner, Thomas, Oberto, or (sign&trade) Udoka on the trade front. These players are percieved as unathletic role players who only work for the Spurs. Who were the worse teams in the league, Sacto and the Wiz? I don’t think they’d be more than a few games better if they added ALL of the above mentioned Spurs.
June 2nd, 2009 at 4:30 pm
SHOULD READ: I tip my hat to you that you both seem to consider a frontcourt addition vital.
June 2nd, 2009 at 5:02 pm
I posted this on another page but I believe that the Spurs should make a trade with Nets for Vince Carter and E Najera for Bonner, Mason, GHill, Oberto, Thomas. Those are all contracts that expire in 2010 for the Nets who would love to cut costs and get ready for the Lebron and (anyone from DWade to Bosh etc etc) 2010 sweepstakes where they would have money and the lure of good young players mainly D Harris and B Lopez. The spurs would have then solved the 3 position and they can make up the depth on the squad with young players they have stashed away in Austin and any they get this year in the 2nd round. Also they should sign Rasheed to the mid-level.
June 2nd, 2009 at 8:59 pm
Wow, Johnny, adding Vince AND Sheed? Some would cry about giving up Mason and George Hill, but I say we throw in Bowen and Finley in as well, for free. We’d rule the league, Old School style.
June 3rd, 2009 at 8:37 am
johnny,
you’re okay paying sheed his $8 mil?
I think our best option for a trade is with a big team like Chicago, Detroit, New York, Miami or Nets that have big aspirations for the 2010 summer and the lure of a big market for those players. Teams like SA and Minnesota will be competing for role players but no star would go to either. Thats why we need to focus on stealing great players in trades from those big market teams or stealing quality role players like Carney (Pressurez) now when the market is going to be really shallow with teams not wanting to commit money before 2010. I’m with Varner that the Spurs are in a great position for a quality move. I’m just not sure our dead weight would entice any small market teams who really have no chance of competing for the big names in the first place. ChillFan, is dead on about a trade partner sacrificing a season by taking all of our loose change.
Conjuring up a three team trade is beyond me but that would be one way where our bench salaries could be divided between two teams and no team sacrifices 3-4 spots on their roster. How do draft picks work in balancing the monetary aspect of a trade? I’d love to see the Spurs move up a little to the end of the first round if possible.
June 3rd, 2009 at 9:58 am
I think there is considerably more trade value in a package of our role players for a broader range of franchises than some are suggesting here. If you package together Bowen and Oberto together as pieces of an exchange in which both teams take back equal total salaries, the other team gets to save ~$4 million by waiving both players. If you then add a respectably productive veteran player like Mason, or a well-past-their-prime-but possibly-good-veteran-mentor player like Finley or Thomas, to that package, you have a package that some rebuilding teams are going to find attractive. If you add 1 or 2 of our 3 second round picks, you actually give the other team more tools to rebuild with.
For example, if Minnesota only won 24 games last year anyway, why wouldn’t they trade someone like Mike Miller if it lets them save some $$ and maybe get a guy like Kurt Thomas, who could mentor their young bigs on how to defend the post for a season? If they made us take on Madsen’s contract in the process, they would also actually net an extra roster spot once they waived Bowen & Oberto. They could use that to develop a D-Leaguer or a 2nd round pick on a non-guaranteed contract.
Another type of team that would find those contracts appealing: one that can’t afford to resign a FA, but who doesn’t want to lose them for nothing. Teams like the Bulls (Ben Gordon), Hawks (the forwards & Zaza), Bucks (Villanueva & Sessions), Cavs (Varejao), & Knicks (Lee & Robinson) all fall into this category. If you were one of those teams, would you rather let a quality player walk for nothing, or work a sign-and-trade where you take back partially guaranteed contracts that only leave you obliged with ~$3.5 million in salary for just one season while also picking up either cheap assets (Hill, Mahinmi, or 2nd round picks) or a respectable role player with an expiring deal (Finley or Mason)?
June 3rd, 2009 at 11:04 am
Any ideas on Ike Diogu? He’s more of a 4 from what I’ve seen, but is it possible to move him over to the three position and learn defense from Bowen for a year or two? He’d be relatively cheap from the Kings.
June 3rd, 2009 at 11:16 am
Adding a SF like a Hedo or Marion would be ideal for the Spurs. However, I do see the obstacles and do think they will be hard pressed to get one.
http://therookiecontract.com/
June 3rd, 2009 at 11:53 am
Gist will play (at least on defense) the 3 in the nba. His role with the spurs would be similar offensively to Bowen’s: hit the corner 3. He will add that his is better running the floor and finishing. He should be better driving baseline.
June 3rd, 2009 at 12:09 pm
Jordan,
Diogu is strictly a 4. He can’t play any smaller.
June 3rd, 2009 at 12:12 pm
Clark,
You’re mistaken. I hear from someone I trust that Pop told Gist that he doesn’t have the lateral foot speed to guard the perimeter. He’s more of a small ball 4. But you’ve touched on his toughest obstacle to overcome-he’s a tweener in terms of size.
June 3rd, 2009 at 12:13 pm
Joe,
Good thoughts.
June 3rd, 2009 at 12:14 pm
I’d say Carter still has two more fairly dominant seasons in him, but then he’d swing from the neck like a noose.
Sheed is in decline, which is why San Antonio should not invest too much for too long. But on a short, reasonable deal, he makes sense.
June 3rd, 2009 at 12:15 pm
Johnny,
I see your logic. That deal makes some sense for both teams.
June 3rd, 2009 at 3:00 pm
i just wanna tip my hat to everyone; this is a fantastic off-season discussion.
June 3rd, 2009 at 7:19 pm
Travis Outlaw anyone?
We should try and get the youngsters the Blazers are offloading… Sergio Rodriguez and Channing Frye also want out… they would be great for our 2nd unit. Dont know what the Blazers want from Spurs though, Mason? couple expiring contracts? They would think they can get more for their trio.
June 3rd, 2009 at 9:03 pm
Couldn’t we put together a deal with Portland??
They’ve got some very nice young pieces and Travis Outlaw seems like a good addition in a trade..
Thoughts?
June 3rd, 2009 at 9:09 pm
Just food for thought.
All of you want to get rid of Mason Jr. because he didn’t perform in the post-season. How many of you wish you had Hedo right now? Didn’t he perform well in the regular season and flunk in the post-season and we got rid of him? Now he is plunking down 15 points and 14 assists at the shooting guard spot for a team in the Finals.
Let’s keep Mason for another year, let’s bring up our young guns, let’s make a minor trade or two, and let’s keep our options open for 2010.
I see no reason to panic.
June 4th, 2009 at 5:56 am
The Spurs might get lucky…there is an outside chance the Blazers simply waive Outlaw because of the non-guaranteed nature of his contract. Unlikely, but if they do decide to chase after someone like Hedo in free agency, it could happen.
June 4th, 2009 at 8:02 am
jeff,
For me, it isn’t about not liking Mason but most teams at the trade deadline wouldn’t even talk with us without Hill or Mason being in the conversation. For me, Hill makes more sense to keep because of his defense and athleticism. I can’t mention it enough that his FTA/FGA ratio is that of a PF/C like Manu’s. Ideally we can keep both because TP, Manu, Hill, and Mason would arguably be the best back court of any team in the league.
June 4th, 2009 at 6:49 pm
I go to the beach for 4 days and come back to a 57 comment orgy of Spurs information. I love this blog.
To the suggestions, I’m loving some things, apathetic on some, and disliking others. There is too much for me to give an opinion on, so I will just say something general. We talk about the window being Tim, so I’m assuming the definition is actually Tim’s talent. The window stays open as long as we bring in more talent to offset Tim’s declining talent, until he retires. We, the fans, and the Front Office are all well aware of this and everyone agrees with the general game plan of increasing the talent around Timmy, and the plan would have worked beautifully except for one thing no one saw coming: an economy that fell on its face. So many deals being suggested here that work financially but don’t have the optimal talent balance, while other great talent trades don’t work well financially. Could it be that the economy has shut the window for us? Is one for the thumb worth the risk of joining the rest of the league in accepting the NBA loans? I’m not trying to play the Devil’s advocate, I’m just curious to see how everything is going to play out. I want a 5th ring, but is it possible?
June 4th, 2009 at 7:02 pm
Like Kevin Garnett, ANYTHING IS POSSSIBBLLEEEEEEEE!!!
June 4th, 2009 at 9:25 pm
Keep Mason or he will come back to haunt us like Turkoglu? When Turk left the Spurs won a championship, so a similar result would be a consolation for saying goodbye to Mason. He was so uncomfortable handling the ball and playing D, Id choose Hill over Mason.
The Spurs are much more than “a minor trade or two” away from the nba’s Upper eschelon. How many times have you heard a sportcaster say,” if Manu had been healthy, the Spurs would be here in the Finals.” Wake up, the Spurs need a respectable big and a Quality wing. If the Spurs don’t go beyond the Drew Goodens or Ime Udokas of the league at both of these positions, we might as well trade Duncan.
June 4th, 2009 at 10:49 pm
I agree completely with Travis Outlaw. Ever since he got drafted I’ve been hoping that somehow he would end up in silver and black.
Draft-wise: If things stay the way that they are, picking up someone like Dionte Christmas, Sam Young, or the Aussie that people were talking about would be good.
But as for free-agents, the best option that I see is something like a Marvin Williams. One thing that I liked earlier this year though, was when they had Malik Hairston, George Hill, and Pops Mensah-Bonsu out on the floor at the same time. That was a fun group to watch and it got me slightly excited about the future. But then Drew Gooden happened and Malik got waived and Pops ended up in Toronto. I believe that good things can start if they bring those two guys back.
I apologize for this but I gotta say . . . I gotta have my Pops!
June 5th, 2009 at 6:06 pm
Thanks Tim for seeing my logic. As far as Rasheed goes the reason that I like him so much is just for the Spurs. I think that is obviously not the player that he used to be, but on the Spurs he would be extremely valuable. He plays good defense, especially positional defense which is something that has made the Spurs a great defensive team. No matter how you may view Rasheed right now, I think that you can say that he is an upgrade over Bonner. Bonner better percentage shooter but he needs a lot of room to get off his 3 point shot where as Rasheed does not need a lot of room. Also I think as a spur fan we need to concentrate on the next 3 years and not worry about the post Duncan era. The post Duncan era is not going to result in a Championship unless the spurs get a Duncan like superstar. In order to do that they will need to have high draft picks, so they are going to have to get lucky in a bad season after Duncan retires and get a high pick in a great draft. That is how the NBA works. So go for the Championships while you can, and when that era is over is when you concentrate on building up to make a another run at a championship with another great player.
June 6th, 2009 at 9:11 am
Any chance we could get Kirilenko? He seems to be overpaid in Utah, but I think he could be a great match for the Spurs.
June 7th, 2009 at 1:01 pm
1.greek center
2.ariza
3.jr smith
4.andersen
5.carter
6.d jones
7.wallace
thats my wishlist
June 15th, 2009 at 11:46 am
First off, I want to applaud this website and the members here. I don’t know why I hadn’t found this place before. You guys really know what you’re talking about.
And I’m just going to say, there is a high chance that Hedo Turkoglu will be headed for free agency. There is still hope. Now whether or not this option for the Spurs is plausible, this is the guy that would be the missing piece in my opinion. His ability to create his own shots, shoot the 3, bring the energy that Manu is capable of, and his size. His defense is mediocre, but time with Pop will change this.
Now for the more possible choices, Rasheed Wallace would be great. He’s great on offense, he can make a clutch shot, he can shoot the 3, and play great defense.
Travis Outlaw and Josh Childress seem like a nice choices as well. Oh the possiblities. I’m sure the Spurs will cook up something though. They always do.
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