Tuesday, June 9th, 2009...9:23 am
Ginobili on his Contract Season: “I would prefer to stay in San Antonio.”
From the Argentine Sports Daily Ole via TrueHoop:
“In San Antonio they have not sat down with me to discuss an extension. I have a year to go on my current contract. I do not know what they want to do. I will wait and will continue to play. Contract talks were suspended after the Olympics,” [Ginobili] notes.
The trip to Beijing had no lasting consequence on his relationship with the team: “I know the owner was not happy. But they did not mention a word to me. [Coach] Popovich understands my position. He said he would have done the same thing as I did. I do not think there is anything broken between us. I would prefer to stay in San Antonio for the rest of my career. But, if anything has to change, I will grab my bags and go elsewhere.”
The TrueHoop article includes a second quote as well, in which Ginobili says there is a chance he could be traded. He also says that if the Spurs are healthy they can contend, and he prefers playing with teammates who are “experienced and have a high basketball IQ, even if they are a step slower.”
This is a difficult topic for me to address. Ginobili is my favorite player on the Spurs. But my first loyalty is to the franchise. I believe that if a team is going to succeed it can only have so many sacred cows. It’s dangerous to have more than one player at a time who has so deeply contributed to the team’s past success that they are now untouchable. And in San Antonio that player is Tim Duncan.
In my colder moments, I have said that Ginobili should be traded, or that we should let his contract expire. That between his age and his continuing health concerns, our best chance for a fifth ring lies elsewhere.
But now that I have heard him address it directly, it’s difficult to even consider. I feel like it’s 1941 and I’m sitting at the kitchen table with my brother as he stares down an unopened letter from the War Department. I may believe the cause is just, but now that the possibility of his departure has been made flesh, and I am reminded that the final decision is not his, It’s deeply unsettling. No matter what broader logic may buttress the moment, all I can think is, “Don’t go.”
69 Comments
June 9th, 2009 at 9:26 am
There is hope that he would accept a smaller contract after the current one expires to further help bring a championship back to SA.
June 9th, 2009 at 9:45 am
There is really only one reason to trade Ginobili. That is if they think there’s no way that he’ll fully recover and that the money going his way is better spent on other pieces to try to extend the championship window.
Personally, I think it would be a franchise-killing blow to get rid of Ginobili. He is too well-liked in the community (a Spanish-speaking star in a predominantly Hispanic community), he outperforms his contract (even when he’s playing on one leg), and the intangibles he brings to the team are irreplaceable (leadership, competitiveness, controlled recklessness).
Moreover, the Spurs system is difficult to learn. Trading him will impact the overall team chemistry as whichever person comes here learns the defensive & offensive schemes. As fragile as his body may increasingly be, there’s no guarantee that the person we trade for stays healthy either. There is a guarantee, however, that the learning curve limits their effectiveness for the first year.
Yes, we could implement new offensive sets to make things easier for that person at that half of the court, but that could impact the other players negatively as well.
Final point. Would you want to face an irritated Manu Ginobili in the playoffs on another team, determined as hell to prove that we were wrong for giving up on him? Anybody? Didn’t think so.
I say he stays. (Disclaimer: This post may have been influenced by my man-crush on Emmanuel David Ginobili, and the #20 jersey hanging in the closet)
June 9th, 2009 at 9:58 am
I agree with Jordan, He will accept a smaller contract just like Tim did for the benefit of the team. These guys care about winning first. My guess is he’ll accept a contract at 0r a little higher up than the mid-level exception, where he will then be upgraded to Saint Status. If anyone ever needs the help of the basketball gods then, they can just talk to Ginobili to put in a good word. Ginobili will take your pleads, decide if you want to win for your own benefit or for the benefit of the team, and then talk to the gods for you or not.
Anyways, Graydon you’re saying that you wouldn’t despise your country for sending your brother to war, that loyalty, above else else to the country? You wouldn’t follow your brother to war along with him?
I mean, I like the Spurs just like everyone else, but in basketball, you become so much more enamored by individual players than any other sport. Such is the case with me and the Spurs, sure I like the whole organization and the guys in the back and all, but it’s so much harder to like them when I rarely see them. It’s easy to admire, but it’s hard to really like.
If Manu gets traded, i would immediately like the team that he gets traded to so much more. Sure I would still like the spurs, but a little bit less. Players are the faces of the organizations, so much so that it leads some to refer to them as brothers in a metaphor, well I would follow my brother to war.
Again, I don’t think this will happen, as mentioned all the way above, but it bothers me that people’s priorities are on the organization and fall in love with the players, when the organization would just discard a player if something better came along. Where’s the loyalty? It’s Manu.
June 9th, 2009 at 10:28 am
the little o & Varner:
I wholeheartedly agree that Manu is the catalyst to our success over the years, thus he has become my favorite player. As a person who bleeds black and silver, nothing gets me going more than Manu slashing and dashing then throwing up a prayer of a shot only to see it go down time and time again. But my loyalty is with the Spurs and the FO who brought me the opportunity to watch Manu in action.
Trading Manu would be a wound that only a steady recovery regiment of Haagen Daas, Pizza Hut, McDonalds, and Beer can fix. I would be devastated. But my pain would soon subside in the hope that my bromance was not all lost for naught. Obviously as a die-hard fan, NO trade options seem to be on par in terms of value but the possibilities are intriguing.
In closing, my loyalty lies with the Black and Silver, I love Manu, he embodies what San Antonio is hard working, humble, and cares about the community (or his public image does). But I owe it more to my allegiances to
the Admiral, Timmy D, Sean Elliot, the Iceman, the Little General and the Baseline Bums.
On a side note, LOOOOOVE THE BLOG!!!! I NEED MORE UPDATES! jaja…
June 9th, 2009 at 10:32 am
The NBA is a business and players know that. The franchise has to do what it believes is in its best interest. I wouldn’t blame the Spurs for trading Manu IF they received youth and talent in return. However, it would make me sick to see Manu wearing another team’s jersey. The thought of that is very disturbing.
June 9th, 2009 at 10:49 am
Nicely written Gordian. Thats a very poignant metaphor. /sigh
I hope next season brings good news.
June 9th, 2009 at 11:01 am
Manu has always been my favorite Spur since he came aboard the Spurs train, but he’s too injury prone and has been even before the Olympics. I think it’s time we trade him. Maybe for a first-round pick or a good small and power forward. Have Mace as the starting shooting guard and groom Hill to eventually overtake the starting SG spot (I’d rather see him at point but Pop has said he wants him at SG) Smells like a good team to me.
June 9th, 2009 at 11:04 am
I think you captured the difficulty of the decision well, Gordian, but I think the loyalty issue might be a bit more complicated than this. It’s presented here that the tradeoff is loyalty to Manu vs. loyalty to the Spurs organization, but those aren’t the only loyalties we have to consider. What about our loyalty to the other individual players on the team, especially Timmy, who, with his health issues, may only have a couple of years left on his window?
If, for example, the Bulls actually were to offer the deal that Tim has proposed — Ben Gordon at a reasonable deal (maybe ~$9 million/year?) plus Tyrus Thomas for Manu? With the exception of his issues with the coaching staff, Thomas really seemed to get it at the end of the season, like with a fresh start on a new team, next season he might be ready to put out 17/9 with 2 - 3 blocks/game as a starter. And who knows what a trade might do for Gordon’s effort on the defensive side of the ball, especially if he came to a team like us with such a strong defensive culture? Look at what happened with Ray Allen and Paul Pierce after KG arrived — did anyone see that coming?
I’m not saying that we HAVE to do that deal, but we have to think really hard and do our homework on it before making a decision, right? Don’t we owe it to Timmy, who turned down the offer to go play with Grant Hill in Orlando to stay with us, and Tony, who took a less-than-market-value contract to stay with us, out of loyalty to what they’ve done for the franchise, too, to field the best team possible not just next year, but for the duration of the current core’s window?
The gamble is that if we remain loyal to Manu this summer and pass on what’s available now, we’re banking not just on his health for the next few years, but also that we can use our 2010 cap space to land a key player that’s better than what is on the table this summer in a trade. And the problem with that double-gamble is that the second problem is somewhat contingent on the outcome of the first — if Manu ISN’T healthy come the playoffs next year and we flame out in the first round again, what premier FA is going to think of us as still being a legit title contender? We’ve disappointed in the playoffs for 2 straight years now; I think our cap space next summer becomes far less meaningful if we fail to make at least the conference finals next season.
In truth, I’m glad I’m not employed by the Spurs’ front office, because this is a really tough decision they have to make this summer. I have absolutely no idea what the right thing to do is, and I don’t think anyone really CAN know what the right thing to do is here. I just want to point out that in the case that we do move Manu this summer, we shouldn’t just view the decision as an issue of loyalty vs. business sense — there are a lot of variables involved, and I think the loyalty variable can push you toward either side of the fence, depending on how you look at it.
June 9th, 2009 at 11:17 am
Epic post, Joe.
I completely agree.
What the FO should do is more complicated than just solving the “loyalty to Manu vs. loyalty to the Franchise as a whole” dilemma.
The most salient and pressing point you make, in my opinion, is this: “if Manu ISN’T healthy come the playoffs next year and we flame out in the first round again, what premier FA is going to think of us as still being a legit title contender? We’ve disappointed in the playoffs for 2 straight years now; I think our cap space next summer becomes far less meaningful if we fail to make at least the conference finals next season.”
That is often overlooked in all our discussions. Just because we have the space doesn’t mean we have the pick of the litter. We have to be in a great position to compete where a guy like Chris Bosh can come in, be the missing piece, and win another title. Beyond Bosh, I don’t know any other player with a similar talent level and fit with the organization.
Who exactly are we pinning our hopes on in 2010? Doesn’t it make more sense to make a big trade now?
I’m motivated to do this because I don’t think the team as constituted can win a title, but even if you disagree with me there, you still have to answer those questions. Why do we think the summer of 2010 will save the franchise?
Don’t we have to explore all our options NOW so we don’t waste one of Tim Duncan’s last good years?
Don’t we owe him that?
June 9th, 2009 at 11:19 am
Don’t forget the big picture:
A damaged Ginobili doesn’t help this team, especially not at 16 million on our cap this season. His recovery is the primary factor to be considered here.
Ginobili is one of many hard decisions that this team needs to make. Two seasons ago the Spurs decided not to make any, and as a result we are now beginning our descent into mediocrity. Pop has been stubborn about young players, but if you look at all the contenders over the last two seasons, youth plays a major part in their respective successes (L.A.: Ariza, Farmar; Orlando: Nelson; Boston:Rondo; Cleveland: Sideshow Bob; Houston: Brooks, Scola, etc.).
By no means am I saying trade Manu, I am saying we can’t afford any more rose-colored personnel decisions. If his health is risky going forward, do the right thing for the team.
Sometimes if you’re not moving forward, you’re moving backward. Our failure to integrate young legs has already caught up with us, and its being compounded by the success other teams are having with the same.
As a side note, if Pop’s system is so damn hard to pick up that it prevents us from integrating guys like Gooden, Hairston, etc. inside one season, maybe he should re-evaluate the system.
Which is better: a great system with no personnel to implement it, or a system capable of winning that allows us to get players acclimated in less than two years?
June 9th, 2009 at 11:32 am
joe- just one thing I want to bring up from your post, how have we disappointed the last two years in the playoffs? Last year yes, but the year before we made it to the Western Finals and managed to make it a six-game series without Manu.
June 9th, 2009 at 11:44 am
“I think it’s time we trade him. Maybe for a first-round pick or a good small and power forward.”
I’m not going to comment on this topic, because I’m biased. Regardless… Kai, you’re dead to me. Trade Manu for a first-round pick? Are you completely mad?
June 9th, 2009 at 11:54 am
Mmmm Chris Bosh…. that sure would be nice.
June 9th, 2009 at 11:58 am
come on latin, don’t be like that. You know we need a decent SF and a good power forward/center
June 9th, 2009 at 11:58 am
I agree that they may have to shorten up the playbook. My understanding is that they have a basic set of plays, and then a ton of variations on that play, based on the reaction of the defense.
That’s a lot to pick up, even if you’re a high basketball IQ person, but the problem with shortening up the playbook at this point is you don’t want to force guys like Tim & Tony who know it backwards & forwards to have to start thinking, “Alright, this is the right play to run, but is it one of the ones we cut out?” You don’t want to change the system so much that you impact the productivity of those two key guys.
The beauty of the system is that they’ve been able to run it successfully and win consistently by relying on intelligence instead of otherworldly athleticism. That’s why guys like Finley, Oberto, etc can be successful here with the skills that they currently bring to the table.
The downside is twofold. First, those types of players are even harder to find than folks with the athletic talent, and when you do find them they can be hard to pry loose (unless you’re trading with Chris Wallace, Kevin McHale, or Isiah Thomas).
The second problem is that when they are no longer producing for you, they have less value in practically every other system than they do here. Oberto, with all his faults, can still produce here in limited minutes because his understanding of spacing, his ability (and willingness) to pass, and his ability to defend. He’s not going to be nearly as productive in other places, because their systems don’t necessarily play to his strengths like ours does.
I’ll echo the earlier comments. I’m glad that I’m not in the Spurs front office right now, because I literally see no “win” situations for them, short of plucking some unheard of European that can come in and instantly contribute.
They can’t trade for a salary-dump player, because their complementary pieces all have sensible contracts. They are unlikely to draft an impact player (even with their success rate), because their picks are all in the second round. If they mess with their core Duncan-Parker-Ginobili trio, they’re pretty much guaranteed to not get sufficient talent back to offset the corporate knowledge that’s leaving.
If we do make a trade, the player that makes the most sense to trade, unfortunately, is Parker. His skill set is the most easily replaceable (a short to average height point guard who is primarily a scorer), he has an attractive contract (especially when you compare to his production level), and he’s young enough that teams would be willing to give up more, since he’d be productive for them for longer.
Of course, this only works if Ginobili is fully healthy. Big “if”. If so, he can keep the offense running, and Hill & Mason will be good enough to cover for Parker, along with whoever comes back in a trade.
Yes, Parker was our best player for most of year, but that actually helps prove my point. He isn’t good enough to carry us. Duncan, when healthy is. Ginobili, when healthy, is. Parker, even when healthy, isn’t.
Yes, you’d be crossing your finger’s on Ginobili’s health, but you’re already crossing your fingers on Duncan’s health. If either one of those guys goes down, we’re toast. If they both are healthy, I think the ceiling is championship.
By the way, I think they should call Splitter’s people and convince them to pull a Rubio, and try to go to arbitration for a more reasonable buyout. If they could find a way to get him for this year, to go with a healthy Ginobili & Duncan… nice.
June 9th, 2009 at 12:09 pm
It’s hard to imagine the Spurs trading Ginobili for anyone other than a young blossoming all-star like Kevin Durant. To move Manu for an all-star caliber veteran makes no sense when you factor in the learning curve he would require and small window of opportunity with TD as your post option, not to mention cap concerns. The Spurs need to resign Ginobili so that his contract runs concurrent with Duncan or Parker, resign Gooden, grab one of the Clipper bigs that will become available once they draft Griffin and hold the course for next couple of years.
http://theorangerock.blogspot.com/
June 9th, 2009 at 12:09 pm
Rick,
Gotta say, I agree with you on every point. But I would like to share one of my own observations.
At our best, Pop’s system worked because our defense never failed us. Even when our offense sagged, our defense would keep us in the game. However, over the last couple of seasons, our perimeter D has evaporated. I attribute this to the old legs that can no longer close out on shooters well enough to contend. Finley, Thomas, Mason, Bonner, and (gulp) Timmy all seem to find opposing players just late enough to watch the ball go through the net. IMHO, I think this has been our downfall on defense.
And so when you say “The beauty of the system is that they’ve been able to run it successfully and win consistently by relying on intelligence instead of otherworldly athleticism,” I agree, but at this point I think we lack the requisite athleticism, even if that requirement is somewhere short of otherwordly, to perform in this system. And I attribute that lack of requisite ability to neglect by the FO.
June 9th, 2009 at 12:21 pm
Spurs 4 Life,
Defensive closeouts have been an issue, but the thing that killed us in the Dallas series was the midrange. Our defensive system is predicated on stopping the 3, and protecting the rim. If you have a team with a good mid-range game, you’re going to have defensive issues. Nowitzki and Howard both have excellent midrange games, which caused part of our problems against them.
That being said, I agree that defensive recovery on the perimeter is an issue. In the past, we were able to help on midrange shooters, and recover to the 3 point shooters in time. Finley, Bonner and Mason can’t do that. I’m leaving Tim out in large part because he’s only having to close out on the perimeter when the other guys aren’t doing their jobs.
Hill and Hairston are already substantially better defenders than those other three guys (and will be even more so by the start of the season), and if they can get their offensive games up to the point of not being liabilities, I think we’ll be in dramatically improved. Their defensive ability can give us back some of the leeway we’ve been lacking on the offensive side of the ball.
June 9th, 2009 at 12:32 pm
Agreed again; great insight. Here’s also hoping that Pop finds some court/roster time for Hill/Hairston when it counts.
June 9th, 2009 at 1:43 pm
I can understand the possibility of trading Ginobili, but I can’t see any reason to let it happen. Yes, he’s in the last year of his contract, but when healthy(a negative the last 2 years) he’s a winner. Let him get healthy, Ray Allen was thought to be done with bad ankles in Seattle and he won a championship.
I am of the firm belief that he is one of the few closers (A player that can make an outside shot, finish @ the rim, make game clinching FT’s, and make an assist in the 4th qtr in crunch time, behind maybe only Kobe, Wade, Lebron, and Pierce) in this league. When Duncan made the 3 against the Suns in the playoffs, who was smart enough to make that pass? or the end of game play when Duncan sets a back pick on Finley’s man for the corner 3, who draws the defense to make that great pass? Or the great pass to Horry for the 3 in Detriot?
Or how about 2 years ago the only game we won against the Lakers was when he scored, like 21 pts in the 1st half? or when he outscored Lebron in Cleveland in the 4th qtr, 18 to 15 to win the game in Cleveland?
Or how about the clutch steal of an inbound pass to beat Boston in Boston this year?
A player like Ginobili is hard to come by due to his bball IQ, ability to perform in the clutch, and be a great team player. I would not trade Ginobili.
June 9th, 2009 at 2:06 pm
Don’t forget as recently as February 2008, Ginobili was the the 1st NBA player EVER!, to avg at least 24 pts, 6 rebs, and 6 assists, on a 9 game road trip. Not many 9 game road trips in Nba, but still a phenomenal accomplishment.
June 9th, 2009 at 2:16 pm
Ivmainman… your last paragraph says it all. I couldn’t have said it better myself. Manu should retire a Spur.
June 9th, 2009 at 2:18 pm
I read that quote from “Kobe doing work” and felt a tingle of pride
If you must trade manu, do it while I’m not looking.
June 9th, 2009 at 2:20 pm
Amen, lvmainman, amen.
Could you imagine life if we’d actually brought Ginobili over in ‘99 when he was drafted? Wow, that might have been different.
June 9th, 2009 at 2:39 pm
One of the primary reasons why I wouldn’t trade Ginobili, is because he only has like 2 or 3 more solid years, at most. That being the case, he isn’t going to wind up in a young developing team. The most likely scenario is for him to go to a contending team that needs to get over the hump and win now. In return for Ginobili, that team would give us some young players that they cannot wait to develop at the moment. The spurs fit that description of a team since their window of opportunity of closing along with Tim Duncan, who only has 2 or 3 more solid years to go too.
Therefore, our most valuable, young and still developing player to trade would be Parker.
We can trade him to a young up and coming team for not so old but experienced players (ideally a good small forward and power forward) that will help us win now. However, those players would still need a least more than a year to learn the system. Couple that with the free agent acquisition that would also need at least more than a year to learn the system, and that’s more than two years before we get any production from a trade for parker, that would ideally give us the most win now players.
For this reason, a trade, for either Ginobili or Parker would still take a long time to reap the benefits of. The current system that we have now just doesn’t help us with our ephemeral window of opportunity, and current roster make up.
On a side note, I would like to say that I know see that this isn’t just an issue between loyalty to Manu vs. loyalty to the organization. Before, I just felt frustrated at the some of the fan base for following just a simple logo like mindless zombies, without regard for players getting traded or thrown away. I couldn’t see the humanity. But I now understand that this is also about loyalty to the other players, to the “Admiral, Timmy D, Sean Elliot, the Iceman, the Little General and the Baseline Bums.” There is humanity in the logo after all.
June 9th, 2009 at 3:28 pm
Ginobili should sign for less. He owes it to the franchise. A franchise who had given him the pieces to be successful. If Ginobili, were to do that. They would be able to sign another key free agent. Ginobili’s not done, yet. But if he wants big time money. The Spurs should deal while he’s worth something.
June 9th, 2009 at 4:55 pm
Spurs4life,
How is Ginobili costing $16 million on our cap this season??
If the Spurs trade Ginobili, it will be the biggest mistake the franchise has ever made.
June 9th, 2009 at 6:02 pm
My bad…10.7 million. Idon’t know where I got that number…must have been over at Spurstalk.com
June 9th, 2009 at 6:15 pm
i certainly agree with Rick-if anyone is traded it should be Parker. he is not a team player. he gets carried away by his ego and doesnt throw the baLL to perimeter 3-point shooters. think about this-3 pointers add up much faster than 2 points anytime. parker is short and cant pass because he cant see the open players. i just pray the manu can be healthy and give us some spectacular plays next season. too many times parker was a hindrance. thank you, b. stonaker
June 9th, 2009 at 9:24 pm
I’ve argued on here countless times that if the Spurs are to trade one of the Big 3 it should be Parker, not Ginobili.
The reason: Ginobili is the most versatile player on the team, the toughest, and the most clutch.
Ginobili can shoot the 3, mid-range jumper, get to the rim, convert FT’s, handle the ball, find open teammatess, create steals, get big rebounds, etc.
Tony Parker’s biggest strength is he can get to the rim… but what happens when teams clog the lane??
Manu is a better passer, rebounder, defender, FT shooter, 3pt shooter, and leader than Parker..
Why the hell would we trade Manu????
June 9th, 2009 at 9:25 pm
Great post.
To Rick and Betty: You cannot trade Tony. It is impossible to trade him because his contract is much less than his production. There is no way you can trade a multiple All-Star who could average 25 ppg or more, at such a young age, for anything remotely equal. The numbers simply do not match up. Who would have thought that when he signed for less than he was worth, it would come back and bite us in the ass?
I think the FO leaves the Big 3 alone, at least for the next season, and determines how a full summer of rest treats Manu’s legs. If he’s healthy, give him a new contract and away we go. If he’s hurt a lot, we’ll just let his contract run out. Ginobili is a smart guy, he knows his future rides on his health. If he suffers through another injury riddled season like he had this last season, I would not be surprised if he just retired. He only has one gear, balls to the wall, and I would think that he’d notice if he can’t get to that gear and just call it a career.
To echo many sentiments, I’m glad I’m not in the FO.
June 9th, 2009 at 9:27 pm
Best case scenario, the Big 3 stay in tact and the FO pulls off some great moves
June 9th, 2009 at 10:18 pm
I agree that it would be difficult to get equal value for Parker, for the very reasons you mentioned. My point was that it would be even more difficult to try and get value for Manu.
My guess is they’ll shuffle a bit on the supporting cast, maybe try to move up in the draft, and hope for health and good 2nd year improvement from Hill & Hairston.
June 9th, 2009 at 10:41 pm
I’ve been pulled by multiple arguments about trading one of the Big 3, but at the end of the day I think we need to ride it out and let the chips fall where they may.
June 9th, 2009 at 11:27 pm
I’m going to pose some long-stretching hypotheticals:
I still believe that the Big 3 should remain untouched. We’ll keep Duncan and Ginobili while they are still useful, and Duncan retires while either Ginobili goes elsewhere as a role playing vet or retires a little later as a Spur as well. I’d love to see El Contusion, my favorite player, retire here even for the sake of a championship. Call me crazy, as some say, winning isn’t everything.
Tony, meanwhile, will end up the last of our three to remain and, worst case scenario, we’re simply a playoff team, but not a true contender. This is one reason why I think it would be a good reason to get Bouroussis to create a front court tandem with Timmy and be his mentor simultaneously. He could remain with Tony, after improving his game as well, and we still have 2 great players, one of which at least playing at an all-star level. I think if we can’t get any true talents through trade and whatnot besides Bouroussis (I have high hopes for this), we should simply look toward the draft & Austin to fill the SF position (definitely a young player while we still have Bowen & Fin), and have an experimental 3rd string PG, again with DLeaguers and various sign-ups during the season.
I hope things either meet or exceed my expectations, but nevertheless, GO SPURS GO!
June 10th, 2009 at 7:00 am
The Spurs have all kinds of changes that need to be made. I LOVE Manu but I will not surrender my LOYALTY for Timmy and the San Antonio Spurs. It’s the name on the front of the jersey not the name on the back that represents this city. As far as I’m concerned the Spurs took a back seat to the rest of the NBA as they got younger and more athletic and we stayed the same. I’m not saying trade or get rid of Manu but he’s not worth 11 million especially since now he will be on the decline for the rest of his career. For all you people who think we’ll see the Manu of 2005 guess again. They should keep him but for way less. Also, if a great trade comes along for some good, young talent the Spurs have to consider it. We have holes in our defense that need to be addressed. We need more than just guys who stand around and watch Tony and Manu do all the ball handling and penetrating and just want to shoot 3’s. We need guys that can finish at the basket. We need another big man to help Timmy on the defensive end. A big man with a defensive presence who can rebound and get 1 or 2 blocks a game. Our second leading rebounder before we got Drew Gooden(who by the way the Spurs will let wander off to another team just like they did with Hedo)was Kurt Thomas at 5. You people can not tell me you are not a little concerned about what is going on with this team. Timmy will be gone in 3 or 4 years and then they will have a bigger concern. Now is the time to prepare for that problem so that they stay competitive. Paying an aging star far more than what he’s worth is not smart. Filling a roster with older, slower veterans is not smart especially when the other teams in your conference are getting younger. Trying to fill our offensive holes with guys who can make a shot but can’t play defense worth crap is not smart(Matt Bonner, Roger Mason). Defense won those championships! Like I said the Spurs have all kinds of changes that need to be made and Manu might just be part of that. I love Manu but with is age and health as a major concern and an expiring contract now is the time to pull the trigger.
June 10th, 2009 at 7:21 am
My starting 5 2009-2010 1. Tony Parker 2. Manu Ginobili 3. Lamar Odom 4. Tim Duncan 5. Thomas/Oberto
June 10th, 2009 at 7:31 am
Why are you people hating so much on Tony Parker? Manu barely contributed to our championship season in 2003. Last time I checked Tony Parked had 3 good games that year in the finals and not to mention Stephen Jackson contributed more than Manu. Because of him we closed out game six. Manu’s best years were 05 and 06. I’ll give it to him. Because of his great play he helped us beat the Pistons. But because of his stupid foul in 06 against the Mavericks that most likely cost us the win in game 7. In 07 it was Tony’s year in the playoffs. It was his play in the conference finals and the finals that got us a championship against Lebron and the Cavs. He won NBA Finals MVP not Manu. In the past two years Manu’s numbers have slipped a little bit while Tony has become a 3-time all-star. He’s one of the best point guards in the NBA and you people think that’s who we should get rid of? He’s the reason we even won 50 plus games this year and made the playoffs. He’s the reason we were even fortunate enough to win one game in the playoffs this year. You people sound like Avery Johnson who is no longer a coach who traded Devin Harris for Jason Kidd. Not to mention Parker is only 27 and that’s who need to get rid of?
June 10th, 2009 at 8:31 am
Everyone makes great points here. I think FO will lean towards a big three lineup for this season and Manu resigning will be contingent on no further step backs after some evaluation during the season I suppose. That seems a fair shake.
To ppl who say Manu owes it to Spurs to sign for less, I disagree. The reasons are many but I won’t delve into them here.
Off topic, why is that a lot of us are enamoured with Chris Bosh? That guy hasn’t been a good leader and when has he demonstrated the ‘game sense’ to get things done in the playoffs. This is in regard to building around Bosh after TD.
June 10th, 2009 at 9:06 am
LionZion,
I don’t think it’s fair to say that Bosh hasn’t been a good leader or say that hasn’t he demonstrated the ‘game sense’ to get things done in the playoffs. Take a look at his accomplishments in such a short career.
Bosh has become a four-time NBA All-Star, been named to the All-NBA team, appeared for the US national team (with whom he won a gold medal at the 2008 Olympics). Bosh led the Raptors to their first NBA Playoffs berth in five years, and their first ever division title. He is Toronto’s all-time leader in rebounds, blocks, double doubles, free throws made and attempted, and minutes played. Not only is he a leader on the court but off the court he is heavily involved in community service and philanthropy. He set up the Chris Bosh Foundation to help promote sports and education amongst youths in Dallas and Toronto. And the guy is only 25 years old.
In regards to his ‘game sense’ in the playoffs… Let’s be real. Toronto sucks. He’s yet to play with an experienced playoff caliber team. He’s made it clear that he’s not going to sign an extension this summer and would like to test out the FA market next year. Toronto might be forced to trade him this year or risk getting nothing in return for him next season.
June 10th, 2009 at 9:23 am
One of the reasons Bosh is mentioned so much is because he is from Texas (or so I’ve heard), giving him a better chance of coming via free agency than most other big time players in 2010. It may sound silly, but not everyone is looking forward to come to SA unless they have the chance for a championship and they are willing to “sacrifice” money and fame for it.
June 10th, 2009 at 9:42 am
could you imagine bosh with a handful of years under timmy’s tutelage? super sweet.
June 10th, 2009 at 9:57 am
Sorry — wow, I got really behind in the posts.
KA1Z3R, in response to your question, I thought our performance in the 07/08 playoffs was good up until the WCF series, where Manu was hurt but didn’t say anything about it until after the series. If I remember correctly, we only went 5 games in that one, and in one of the games we lost, we were blown out by 30. Making the WCF and losing to the Lakers isn’t disappointing in and of itself, but I felt like we weren’t really competitive with them. Our standard for this decade has been that if we didn’t win the title, we at least made our last series of the season as close to a coin-toss as you can get. I can see your point that we had a lot of objective success that year, but I think the perception among some observers was that we didn’t put up as much of a fight against the Lakers as they expected (because of Manu’s ankle issues, which he hadn’t made public at the time).
June 10th, 2009 at 1:37 pm
CMoney and the rest of you guys,
I guess its what you said. Toronto sucks. I will be honest and admit, I have barely watched or read much Toronto news. So admittedly I have heard only the bad news coming out. Maybe a change in scenery will change my vibes about Bosh.
June 10th, 2009 at 2:53 pm
Daniel,
The only reason people are hating on Parker is b/c of all the “get rid of Ginobili” chatter.. People just don’t understand the importance of Manu to our team’s success.. Parker had a great offensive season, but I think his stats were inflated b/c of injuries to Tim/Manu.. Parker use to be underrated, but now he’s overrated..
The Spurs will not win another championship in the Duncan era if they don’t keep Ginobili..
Book it.
June 10th, 2009 at 6:55 pm
Manu is a ‘bad boy’ like Kobe said and that’s why the Spurs need him to win a title. Parker is an amazing talent, but lacks the killer instinct to take the Spurs to the promise land. I’m guessing the Spurs will do all they can to resign Manu once he shows he is healthy again and then will leverage our players in Europe and the D-League for at least one more title run. Trading Manu would mean more first-round exits for the Spurs; sure, if he isn’t healthy we are in trouble, but if he is healthy, there aren’t many teams we can’t contend with. I’d prefer to trade Parker for some youthful talent and then rebuild in 2012 when Duncan retires.
June 11th, 2009 at 9:54 am
Manu need to sign for less money and retire as a Spur. If FO trade him I won’t go to the games no more. For all of you guys that would like him to be traded(Lakers and Suns fans) just try to imagine last two championships without Ginobili, ‘05 when Duncan was about to cry on the bench in Detroit, or ‘07 when Manu finished off Denver and Phoenix, and tokk over in game 4 against Cavs. In the other hand, if we gonna speak about taking less money what about Tim. Is he worth 20 mil a year? Pay cut maybe, to make up some cap space.
My roster would look like this:
backcourt: Tony,Manu,Hill,Mason,Nando de Colo(draft him, he is Manu tipe of player), Hairston.
frontcourt:Tim,Thomas,Bourrosis,Mahinmi,Splitter, Alade Aminu(draft him from Georgia), Bruce, Finley, and maybe one more young SF draft pick.
June 11th, 2009 at 10:24 am
The FO is in a really tough position, and it might be too late to turn this old supporting cast around…
ThatBigGuy,
I believe the Spurs can get good, fair value for Parker if they (doubtfully) decide to trade him.
How about a deal with Portland for Oden, Outlaw, and Bayless. Or Charlotte for Wallace, Augustin and a first round pick. Or Milwaukee for Bogut, Ridnour, and a first. Or Memphis for Conley, Gay, and Milicic (or the number two pick).
The point is, there are deals out there that could bring fair value back.
June 11th, 2009 at 12:03 pm
wheeeew….
http://www.mysanantonio.com/sports/spurs/Money_talks_and_Manu_stays.html
June 11th, 2009 at 12:52 pm
To reiterate some of the things that have been said previously in other threads and here, in my opinion, the debate over whether or not to trade one of the big 3 is not about whether we can get back equal value (i.e. a player or players that can replicate the ‘greatness’ of our out-going players). By and large, I think most of us would agree that you can’t. Kobe and many of the posters above are all absolutely right about Manu — when he’s healthy, he is one of only a handful of players in the league who can lead you to a title. The same is true about Timmy, and you can make an argument that Tony is the best speedy guard in the league. They’ve all been deep in the playoffs and made huge plays to win big games — you just can’t get equal value in return for any of those guys, much less get MORE than what we’re giving out to get us closer to a title. That said, having just 2 of those guys on the court, or even just 2 of those guys at near full strength with another playing hurt, simply isn’t enough to get us anywhere close to a championship — the past 2 seasons have made this point abundantly clear.
Therefore, the question in my mind is whether it’s better to have a 40/60 or so shot to have 3 absolute studs on the court throughout the playoffs, or whether its better to have a 70/30 or so shot to have 2 absolute studs (Timmy & Tony) plus one or two very, very good other players (e.g Vince Carter, Ben Gordon + Ty Thomas, etc.).
Again, I’m not saying that we HAVE to make a deal — it really depends on what other teams are offering and on how bad you think Manu’s ankles are. If everyone is healthy, I don’t think we’re that far away talent-wise, and it doesn’t help us to take 60-cents on the dollar in order to do a deal just for the sake of doing a deal. On the other hand, 5 years from now, which scenario would let you sleep better at night — having not won another championship because we kept Manu and were never healthy enough to play up to our potential when it mattered, or having not won another ring because we moved Manu and had a healthy team playing at their best that just wasn’t quite good enough to beat the other elite teams? Personally, I’d rather know that we put our best on the table and came up short than sit around complaining about what could have been if only we had everyone healthy.
June 11th, 2009 at 3:45 pm
Joe,
First off, all of your assumptions are based on Manu never being healthy again.. something none of us know..
Second, if it comes down to it, I would rather have a team that has the chance to win a title than a good team that can never get over the hump..
I saw Barkley close down Hemifair and Olajuwon take over against Robinson.. I prefer winning hardware..
Here’s the question: Can “the best speedy guard in the league” lead this team to a championship?
I know Manu can.
June 11th, 2009 at 4:01 pm
Whether we can admit it or not, Manu is the heart of that team. They obviously stood no chance without him against the Mavs. If the Spurs let him go, they had better get a young kid that has potential stardom abilities or they can kiss a 5th championship in the Tim Duncan era gone. I love the Spurs and they’re my team but I just dont see another title without Manu healthy and in the game.
June 11th, 2009 at 7:13 pm
Sean,
No, all of my assumptions are not based on Manu NEVER being healthy. Here’s the key point I wrote above:
“. . . the question in my mind is whether it’s better to have a 40/60 or so shot to have 3 absolute studs on the court throughout the playoffs, or whether its better to have a 70/30 or so shot to have 2 absolute studs (Timmy & Tony) plus one or two very, very good other players (e.g Vince Carter, Ben Gordon + Ty Thomas, etc.).”
I’m also not proposing that we settle for just being pretty good. I’m posing a question: which factor is holding us back from a TITLE more — health, or skill? If any of our big 3 aren’t healthy, we have NO chance to win a title that year even if the other 2 step up.
Assume that we keep Manu and that his health status is basically what I said above: not that he is NEVER healthy again, but that he’s only at or near peak condition throughout an entire 20 - 25 game post-season run to a title in maybe half of the remaining years of the Duncan window. (No, we have no way of knowing whether that’s true, but I think it’s fair to assume that something half-way between the worst possible outcome and the best is what you can reasonably expect). That means that we’re ruling out even the possibility of a title in half of Duncan’s remaining years (and we have no idea how many of those we have left, either). Is that really fair to Timmy (or Tony and the rest of the team, for that matter)? Don’t you at least want to give him a chance to put the team on his back and carry them (with a sufficient supporting cast) to a last title or two?
You also seem to be proposing that trading Manu leaves Tony as our best player, but that’s not necessarily true, depending on who we got back in return. Let’s say we got back Vince Carter and Josh Boone for Manu, expiring contracts, and maybe some sort of future considerations or prospects on either side to make it work. No, Vince doesn’t give you all the intangibles that Manu does, but he’s pretty damn good, and I’d say it’s a toss-up between whether he, Timmy, or Tony would be the best player on the team. You could also expect Vince to do better in the playoffs on our team than he did on the Kidd/RJ/Vince teams because our squad is much more balanced offensively and because he wouldn’t have to score 30/night for us to win. We could then simply do what we’ve done in every playoff series for the past 12 years — count on one of our 3 best players who has the biggest mismatch at their position to carry us and let the other guys get their points as they come rather than having a single ‘best player’ that we pound the ball into no matter what. In last-minute shot opportunities, statistically, Vince is much better than his reputation; in fact, he’s one of the best in the league. Plus, Boone would plug our gaping hole in the middle on defense. This move plus inserting Hill or some other defensive wiz FA that we pick up over the summer into the starting line-up puts our defense back close to where it was 2 years ago.
No, I don’t think a team with these roster moves is quite as good as one with a healthy Manu, but I also don’t think it’s such an enormous difference that it wouldn’t offset the risk of Manu’s ankle problems. It’s a judgment call, and I think it’s much, much closer than how you’re presenting it.
June 11th, 2009 at 10:20 pm
Everyone makes interesting points and it is difficult to know what the best move might be. The defense of the Spurs has distinguished this team from all others. Joe seems to make the realization, too painful for us die-hard Spurs supporters, that change (i.e. uncomfortable trades) is necessary if you want to extend the success of this team beyond the Duncan era. We either ride this questionable horse or make a bold move to show that the Spurs front office is interested in staying competitive (thus, avoiding a drought experienced by former dynasties). Perhaps you do not have to trade your core players but make the move(s) that will enable your trademark defense to rise again.
June 12th, 2009 at 4:13 pm
Joe,
You just wrote a short novel on how Vince Carter could lead us to a title as our best player..
Ask any Raptors fan about Carter and then get back to me..
My head hurts.
June 12th, 2009 at 5:12 pm
Sean is absolutely right about Manu. You have to understand that the NBA is made up of the cream of the crop basketball players who have demonstrated their skills at playing this game. What is missing in a lot of players are the intensity, the will and the killer instinct to take over games and absolutely get the job done. Winning games and Championships! Kobe, Wade, Manu are the top three. If you get rid of Manu, there is no way to know if we will ever get that ingredient in another player.
June 12th, 2009 at 5:21 pm
If the Spurs could get a legitimate top 10 player in return then they should think about it, but they wouldn’t because of his two injuries…It would be way too painful to watch Manu on another team
June 13th, 2009 at 5:50 am
Sean,
I’m not sure I would recommend that the FO make major decisions based on how your head feels. Maybe you should cut back on the caffeine and see if that helps.
By your logic, we shouldn’t bother going after Bosh next summer if we keep our cap space because he hasn’t done anything in Toronto either, right?
Carter never had the talent around him in Toronto to do a whole lot. And in NJ, the 3 best players were Carter, RJ (who plays the same position as Carter), and Kidd (who isn’t a great scorer). Whenever your entire offense is based around perimeter players (two of whom can’t shoot), your team isn’t going anywhere.
In San Antonio, Carter wouldn’t have to be the vocal leader on the team, and he wouldn’t have to be a star every night just for his team to have a chance to win.
And the ‘can he carry us to a title’ question, I think, ignores the history of how we’ve won in the playoffs over the past 10 years — we beat other teams by relying on the one of our big 3 who had the greatest mismatch at his position for a given series. Case in point — if we can all agree that Manu should have been the 05 Finals MVP, then that’s one finals MVP among each of our big 3.
Another aspect of what you’re asking when comparing him with Manu is, can Vince bury a big shot with the game on the line? The facts say yes — statistically he’s pretty good at that, even in comparison with the other league leaders.
Again, for the third time in this thread, I’m NOT saying that the FO has to do this deal, but I think it’s a much closer call than some are giving it credit for.
June 13th, 2009 at 6:50 am
If Manu’s ankles hold thru this season, we should resign him. We should try to somehow get Tiago Splitter on board if possible. We should forever kick our own asses for giving up Luis Scolla for absolutely nothing. We should pursue Shaquille O’Neill with the opportunity to team with Tim, Tony, and Manu with his and Tim’s shortening window and win somemore championship’s before they both are done. Our system suits Shack’s ability and talent perfectly at this time in his career and it is the only place he could land and get some of the credit for the title. Pop could manage his and Tim’s minutes to be as healthy as possible come playoff time. Shack is smart enough to buy into this concept and showed enough last year to make this feasible. It’s either try to win now or start rebuilding now if we are to remain in the upper echelon of the NBA.
June 14th, 2009 at 12:18 am
Joe,
Do a little homework before you attempt to lecture..
First off, Vince Carter quit on Toronto, plain and simple.. He even admitted he purposely stopped playing hard!
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs2007/columns/story?id=2843733
EXCERPT: And Carter’s cause hasn’t been helped by (a) his being accused in the Tacoma News Tribune of tipping off the Seattle SuperSonics about the Raptors’ plays — a month before he stopped playing for Toronto; (b) distorting his face in derision and mocking the Air Canada Centre crowd for chanting “MVP” at Chris Bosh during a Raps-Nets game this season; and, worst of all, (c) telling broadcaster John Thompson he didn’t push himself as hard as he could have when he worked and lived north of the border.
I don’t want a player on my team who even thinks of doing such a thing..
Second off, we didn’t win championships because “one of our big 3 had mismatches” against other teams.. we won championships because we had the best defense in the league..
Ask Pop, defense won our championships.. that’s our staple.. are you even a Spurs fan?
Vince Carter does not improve our defense and has never been a team-first guy.. he is the anti-Spur.
June 14th, 2009 at 1:42 pm
Sean,
Making a reasoned argument to support your case isn’t a ‘lecture’ — it’s called having a discussion. On the other hand, comments like ‘do your homework,’ and, ‘are you even a Spurs fan?’ certainly sound a lot like a lecture to me.
I could say a lot more here, including giving references to posts from syndicated columnists who, despite Vince’s bad rap, have argued that he’s much better than he gets credit for. I could talk about how other players who openly coast through the regular season (Shaq would be one) don’t get nearly the negative response that Vince does, and about how, despite that coasting, Shaq has 4 rings. I could even mention how OUR SPURS (yes, I am a fan, just not a belligerent one like you) quite openly coast through the first half of the season before they kick it in when it counts.
I could refer back to the point I’ve made twice now that Vince wouldn’t have to be the best player on the team for us to win (how do you compare an elite guard with an elite post player, anyway?). I could point out that any reasonably intelligent reader would understand that when I said, ‘we beat other teams by relying on the one of our big 3 who had the greatest mismatch at his position for a given series,’ I’m clearly talking about the offensive end of the court. Some things, like the fact that the Spurs are really good at D, are just a given — kind of like when people say that it was the Bulls’ defense that won them titles in the MJ era (we all know that MJ was the greatest player of all time, but we don’t really have to say that, do we? We understand intuitively that people mean ASIDE FROM MJ’s SCORING ABILITY, . . . ).
But I guess I won’t mention those things, because then I’d be ‘lecturing’ you instead of just making good discussion points on a DISCUSSION BOARD.
June 14th, 2009 at 4:21 pm
You stay classy, Joe
June 14th, 2009 at 5:35 pm
Dude, grow up. Like most threads on this blog, this was a nice discussion, with people raising good points and disagreeing with one another respectfully, before you interjected with your snarky comments. Does it hurt when others bite back?
June 15th, 2009 at 9:57 am
See what happens when our Spurs get knocked out in the first round and the Lakers win it all? At least we can find common ground and agree that we are all passionate about our team and hopefully we’ll be playing in June next year.
June 15th, 2009 at 12:02 pm
Im with Daniel…where did trading TP come in the picture. That is crazy talk. Parker is the best finishing point guard in the league and one of the better point defenders. NOBODY can stay in front of him. He can finish one on four which we’ve seen countless times, and his jumper is no longer a weakness thats why he put up 55 in Minnesota and scored 32 pts in one quarter against Dallas. I love Manu and want him to get healthy. But please quit with the Tony trade talk
June 15th, 2009 at 8:41 pm
Manu brings too many intangibles to the table to be traded. I also believe he will take a pay cut. The Spurs are right to listen to offers for him though.
The Spurs have been dealt some tough luck the last few years too. They only traded Scola to make room for Splitter, and then the economy crashed and he got a better offer to stay overseas. Mahinmi has been a big disappointment with his injuries - he’s young and has dumb hops - I really believe the FO and Pop felt that with a healthy Manu - and Splitter and Mahinmi contributing this year - we would be planning the parade today.
The one thing I know eats away at Pop is how the NBA and Stern just let Jerry West and the Lakers fleece Memphis for Pau. Now everyone is looking for a deal like that. However you can’t discount how much the current economy is affecting the NBA - how many teams have asked for a bailout already? Manu puts the fans in the seats so that’s another consideration.
I know the Spurs will be under the cap in 2010, but they are also afraid of getting spurned again a la Kidd back in 2003. I think the guy they are curious about - the guy that can make a huge difference if he could just keep it together - the one guy that would get our defense back on track and the guy they have thought about getting for a while now is…Ron Artest.
Would he sign for the mid-level? Hard to say. He’s free and with this economy and with an honest to goodness chance to bring Kobe down…he’s crazy enough to consider it.
One last note: the Spurs have a history of trading with the Knicks, and despite what many seem to think - the complications with the cap make it so they may not have as much under it as was once thought. If the Spurs would be willing to consider Eddy Curry (I know - but what if a change of scenery did him some good) along with David Lee (they can’t keep him and chase LeBron and they know it) - for some serious salary dump and perhaps Hill or Mason…I’d do it in a heartbeat. Our cap would be gone with resigning Lee and Manu, but our team would get younger, with better rebounding and there are some other nice pieces the Spurs have overseas just marinating a la Manu who would be ready once Timmy retires.
Eddy Curry
Tim Duncan
Ron Artest
Manu Ginobili
Tony Parker
David Lee
Hill or Mason
They would have to trade or release Bowen, Thomas, Oberto, Finley (he has a player option correct?), Udoka (is he a free agent?) and Bonner plus a future pick possibly. They would have to fill in the gaps with Hairston, Mahinmi, Williams and some journeymen playing for the league minimum. They would have to give up either Mason or Hill for some value, probably Hill since he would be a lighter cap hit for the Knicks. One way or another - the Spurs are going to do something this offseason. I just hope they come to their senses and don’t trade Manu - even Kobe knows how good and important Manu is to this team.
June 18th, 2009 at 9:13 pm
Manu HAS to end his career with the Spurs. I can’t for the life of me imagine him wearing any other jersey. I have faith in the FO, they’ll work it out with the big 3 still intact!
June 19th, 2009 at 9:06 pm
I want Manu traded or let go and I don’t care how. All of these years he’s been underappreciated so why not just get rid of him. After all of these years of sacrificing by coming off the bench (he could’ve been a star on any other team) and being under the spotlight of Tim and Tony it’s hard to see him blamed for every year we don’t win a Championship by the fans when there’s so many more reasons why we didn’t win. I think it’s best for both the Spurs and Manu to part ways.
June 21st, 2009 at 11:36 am
Dave,
I don’t know which Spurs fans you talk to, but the Spurs fans I know love Manu. Manu doesn’t complain about being on the bench. I think we all know he could easily be a starter, but that’s not how the Spurs have organized their rotations. When you have a star player like Manu who is willing to be on the bench, well that’s just not somebody you get rid of.
And the only negative way I’ve heard him blamed for a championship, is when he made that silly foul on Dirk Nowitzki a few years back. And even then, that’s not guaranteeing a championship. But other than that, he hasn’t necessarily been blamed for championships…it’s been said that we NEEDED him to win it.
Anyways, I think getting rid of Manu will end the Spurs title run for quite a long time. We can’t win this thing without our big 3. Our role players are getting better and better and now is not the time to get rid of one of their leaders. We saw what happened when we lost Manu at the end of the season. The Spurs simply need Manu, otherwise Tony Parker has to do basically everything.
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