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	<title>Comments on: Ilardi on Durant</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.48minutesofhell.com/2009/10/13/ilardi-on-durant/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.48minutesofhell.com/2009/10/13/ilardi-on-durant/</link>
	<description>A San Antonio Spurs Blog</description>
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		<title>By: Steve Ilardi</title>
		<link>http://www.48minutesofhell.com/2009/10/13/ilardi-on-durant/comment-page-1/#comment-9630</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Ilardi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Nov 2009 18:47:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.48minutesofhell.com/?p=4963#comment-9630</guid>
		<description>Brian,

I appreciate your concerns about APM, and I&#039;ve addressed the bulk of them - e.g., &quot;trade secret,&quot; non-linear player-by-player interaction effects, etc. - elsewhere: http://www.82games.com/ilardi2.htm.  Stay tuned, as further clarifications will follow in upcoming 48MOH posts/articles.

- Steve Ilardi</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brian,</p>
<p>I appreciate your concerns about APM, and I&#8217;ve addressed the bulk of them &#8211; e.g., &#8220;trade secret,&#8221; non-linear player-by-player interaction effects, etc. &#8211; elsewhere: <a href="http://www.82games.com/ilardi2.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.82games.com/ilardi2.htm</a>.  Stay tuned, as further clarifications will follow in upcoming 48MOH posts/articles.</p>
<p>- Steve Ilardi</p>
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		<title>By: Brian Tung</title>
		<link>http://www.48minutesofhell.com/2009/10/13/ilardi-on-durant/comment-page-1/#comment-9394</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian Tung</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Oct 2009 22:11:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.48minutesofhell.com/?p=4963#comment-9394</guid>
		<description>I have the same problem with WW&#039;s version of APM as I do with most of the BCS inputs: They&#039;re closed formulas (as in, not publicly accessible).  I get the whole trade secret thing, but as a means of advancing the statistical understanding of basketball it&#039;s a little bass-ackwards.

Not to mention there&#039;s a kind of hidden assumption in computing any version of APM, and that&#039;s that APM adds linearly.  In other words, if you have a team with five APM = 0 players, you&#039;ll tie the opponents, on average.  Replace one of those with an APM = +5, and you&#039;ll outscore the average opponent by a certain amount (typically either 1 or 5, depending on the precise formulation of the APM).  Replace &lt;i&gt;two&lt;/i&gt; of them with an APM = +5, and you&#039;ll double the margin.  And so on.

Except that it&#039;s not clear that that&#039;s actually so.  Not only is it implicit in the use of APM, it&#039;s also thickly involved in the &lt;i&gt;computation&lt;/i&gt; of APM.  And because it&#039;s a natural expectation of the way APM works, it&#039;s not so easy to notice.  But once you notice it, you wonder if it&#039;s really been firmly established.  Got a blog post on it here:

http://thenullhypodermic.blogspot.com/2009/10/adjusted-plus-or-minus-more-or-less.html

PER is sort of the flip side of APM.  APM is non-constructive in that it purports to tell you which players contribute most to winning, but can&#039;t tell you why or how.  PER is constructive; it&#039;s an explicit linear combination of basic statistics.  However, it doesn&#039;t have APM&#039;s appealing characteristic of short-circuiting the whole &quot;which statistics are really all that important to winning&quot; thing (the spectre of non-linearity notwithstanding).  Got a blog post about that, too:

http://thenullhypodermic.blogspot.com/2009/06/superstars-and-per.html

Sorry if that seems like link-spamming.  But the careful use of statistics is a big bugaboo with me and I think the points I make there are pretty relevant to the discussion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have the same problem with WW&#8217;s version of APM as I do with most of the BCS inputs: They&#8217;re closed formulas (as in, not publicly accessible).  I get the whole trade secret thing, but as a means of advancing the statistical understanding of basketball it&#8217;s a little bass-ackwards.</p>
<p>Not to mention there&#8217;s a kind of hidden assumption in computing any version of APM, and that&#8217;s that APM adds linearly.  In other words, if you have a team with five APM = 0 players, you&#8217;ll tie the opponents, on average.  Replace one of those with an APM = +5, and you&#8217;ll outscore the average opponent by a certain amount (typically either 1 or 5, depending on the precise formulation of the APM).  Replace <i>two</i> of them with an APM = +5, and you&#8217;ll double the margin.  And so on.</p>
<p>Except that it&#8217;s not clear that that&#8217;s actually so.  Not only is it implicit in the use of APM, it&#8217;s also thickly involved in the <i>computation</i> of APM.  And because it&#8217;s a natural expectation of the way APM works, it&#8217;s not so easy to notice.  But once you notice it, you wonder if it&#8217;s really been firmly established.  Got a blog post on it here:</p>
<p><a href="http://thenullhypodermic.blogspot.com/2009/10/adjusted-plus-or-minus-more-or-less.html" rel="nofollow">http://thenullhypodermic.blogspot.com/2009/10/adjusted-plus-or-minus-more-or-less.html</a></p>
<p>PER is sort of the flip side of APM.  APM is non-constructive in that it purports to tell you which players contribute most to winning, but can&#8217;t tell you why or how.  PER is constructive; it&#8217;s an explicit linear combination of basic statistics.  However, it doesn&#8217;t have APM&#8217;s appealing characteristic of short-circuiting the whole &#8220;which statistics are really all that important to winning&#8221; thing (the spectre of non-linearity notwithstanding).  Got a blog post about that, too:</p>
<p><a href="http://thenullhypodermic.blogspot.com/2009/06/superstars-and-per.html" rel="nofollow">http://thenullhypodermic.blogspot.com/2009/06/superstars-and-per.html</a></p>
<p>Sorry if that seems like link-spamming.  But the careful use of statistics is a big bugaboo with me and I think the points I make there are pretty relevant to the discussion.</p>
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		<title>By: Polprav</title>
		<link>http://www.48minutesofhell.com/2009/10/13/ilardi-on-durant/comment-page-1/#comment-9283</link>
		<dc:creator>Polprav</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Oct 2009 03:51:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.48minutesofhell.com/?p=4963#comment-9283</guid>
		<description>Hello from Russia!
Can I quote a post in your blog with the link to you?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hello from Russia!<br />
Can I quote a post in your blog with the link to you?</p>
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		<title>By: Cory Clay</title>
		<link>http://www.48minutesofhell.com/2009/10/13/ilardi-on-durant/comment-page-1/#comment-9088</link>
		<dc:creator>Cory Clay</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Oct 2009 18:34:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.48minutesofhell.com/?p=4963#comment-9088</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t care what anyone says, KEVIN DURANT IS THE MAN!!!!
I think sometimes we take these plus/minus stats a little too far and this is the perfect example.

Is it possible that the other team slacks off when 
Durant is not in the game since he is really the Thunder&#039;s only established scorer and playmaker?  I think so.

Durant is the future and I would pick him to start a team with over anyother player not named Lebron!!!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t care what anyone says, KEVIN DURANT IS THE MAN!!!!<br />
I think sometimes we take these plus/minus stats a little too far and this is the perfect example.</p>
<p>Is it possible that the other team slacks off when<br />
Durant is not in the game since he is really the Thunder&#8217;s only established scorer and playmaker?  I think so.</p>
<p>Durant is the future and I would pick him to start a team with over anyother player not named Lebron!!!</p>
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		<title>By: stephen</title>
		<link>http://www.48minutesofhell.com/2009/10/13/ilardi-on-durant/comment-page-1/#comment-9074</link>
		<dc:creator>stephen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Oct 2009 06:13:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.48minutesofhell.com/?p=4963#comment-9074</guid>
		<description>Jeff-  PER is pretty much the worst &quot;advanced&quot; stat out there.  Rewards shot-taking (think: Iverson, Maggette, etc.) and ignores defense.  It&#039;s an archaic and mostly useless stat.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jeff-  PER is pretty much the worst &#8220;advanced&#8221; stat out there.  Rewards shot-taking (think: Iverson, Maggette, etc.) and ignores defense.  It&#8217;s an archaic and mostly useless stat.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeff</title>
		<link>http://www.48minutesofhell.com/2009/10/13/ilardi-on-durant/comment-page-1/#comment-9064</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Oct 2009 03:47:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.48minutesofhell.com/?p=4963#comment-9064</guid>
		<description>I personally prefer the PER numbers when evaluating players. The +/-  stuff seems a little off to me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I personally prefer the PER numbers when evaluating players. The +/-  stuff seems a little off to me.</p>
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		<title>By: Vittorio De Zen</title>
		<link>http://www.48minutesofhell.com/2009/10/13/ilardi-on-durant/comment-page-1/#comment-9035</link>
		<dc:creator>Vittorio De Zen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Oct 2009 17:03:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.48minutesofhell.com/?p=4963#comment-9035</guid>
		<description>Great post here. Really, he&#039;s pointing out the obvious - he&#039;s young, he&#039;s an absolute monster in terms of scoring the ball, but he&#039;s not fully developed yet. He&#039;s using numbers to do so, though, which is nice. Just give the kid a few years.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great post here. Really, he&#8217;s pointing out the obvious &#8211; he&#8217;s young, he&#8217;s an absolute monster in terms of scoring the ball, but he&#8217;s not fully developed yet. He&#8217;s using numbers to do so, though, which is nice. Just give the kid a few years.</p>
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		<title>By: KH</title>
		<link>http://www.48minutesofhell.com/2009/10/13/ilardi-on-durant/comment-page-1/#comment-9031</link>
		<dc:creator>KH</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Oct 2009 15:50:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.48minutesofhell.com/?p=4963#comment-9031</guid>
		<description>Its really odd all these people tripping over themselves to prop up Durant.  No one accussed him of being an axe murderer just being very ineffecient and having a negative impact on his team.  And they were accussations with quite a bit of evidence.  The guy is a major talent but enough already.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Its really odd all these people tripping over themselves to prop up Durant.  No one accussed him of being an axe murderer just being very ineffecient and having a negative impact on his team.  And they were accussations with quite a bit of evidence.  The guy is a major talent but enough already.</p>
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		<title>By: Hardwood Paroxysm &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Great Exercises in Internet NBA-Related Postings 10.14.09</title>
		<link>http://www.48minutesofhell.com/2009/10/13/ilardi-on-durant/comment-page-1/#comment-8966</link>
		<dc:creator>Hardwood Paroxysm &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Great Exercises in Internet NBA-Related Postings 10.14.09</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Oct 2009 18:37:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.48minutesofhell.com/?p=4963#comment-8966</guid>
		<description>[...] checks in with Ilardi on the whole Durant Debacle, while Pelton digs a little deeper. These are actually much better [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] checks in with Ilardi on the whole Durant Debacle, while Pelton digs a little deeper. These are actually much better [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Bryan</title>
		<link>http://www.48minutesofhell.com/2009/10/13/ilardi-on-durant/comment-page-1/#comment-8962</link>
		<dc:creator>Bryan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Oct 2009 17:58:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.48minutesofhell.com/?p=4963#comment-8962</guid>
		<description>Completely understand, Tim.  And that is what I&#039;m excited about.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Completely understand, Tim.  And that is what I&#8217;m excited about.</p>
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		<title>By: Timothy Varner</title>
		<link>http://www.48minutesofhell.com/2009/10/13/ilardi-on-durant/comment-page-1/#comment-8955</link>
		<dc:creator>Timothy Varner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Oct 2009 14:58:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.48minutesofhell.com/?p=4963#comment-8955</guid>
		<description>Bryan,

About Advanced Stats: no one offers them as a replacement for the things we see with our eyes; they&#039;re offered to help us better understand those things, correct misconceptions, and add to the what we already know. I&#039;m sure you know this, but we&#039;re not pitching a big bag of numbers as gospel truth apart from other types of evaluation. In that regard, we&#039;re not subtracting anything from what we already do. We&#039;re just adding another layer.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bryan,</p>
<p>About Advanced Stats: no one offers them as a replacement for the things we see with our eyes; they&#8217;re offered to help us better understand those things, correct misconceptions, and add to the what we already know. I&#8217;m sure you know this, but we&#8217;re not pitching a big bag of numbers as gospel truth apart from other types of evaluation. In that regard, we&#8217;re not subtracting anything from what we already do. We&#8217;re just adding another layer.</p>
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		<title>By: Bryan</title>
		<link>http://www.48minutesofhell.com/2009/10/13/ilardi-on-durant/comment-page-1/#comment-8954</link>
		<dc:creator>Bryan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Oct 2009 14:29:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.48minutesofhell.com/?p=4963#comment-8954</guid>
		<description>Great work here, guys.  I&#039;m excited for Dr. Ilardi&#039;s periodic posts on my favorite website.

I&#039;m intrigued by the fairly recent statistical revolution going on in basketball, although skeptical at times.  I don&#039;t always buy what Hollinger is selling.  Correlating numbers to the team I love the most is going to be great.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great work here, guys.  I&#8217;m excited for Dr. Ilardi&#8217;s periodic posts on my favorite website.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m intrigued by the fairly recent statistical revolution going on in basketball, although skeptical at times.  I don&#8217;t always buy what Hollinger is selling.  Correlating numbers to the team I love the most is going to be great.</p>
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		<title>By: broc</title>
		<link>http://www.48minutesofhell.com/2009/10/13/ilardi-on-durant/comment-page-1/#comment-8949</link>
		<dc:creator>broc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Oct 2009 04:58:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.48minutesofhell.com/?p=4963#comment-8949</guid>
		<description>excellent post. Can&#039;t wait for the season. Keep it coming fella&#039;s.  Would like to see what george hill&#039;s numbers were last year and a projection for him mooving forward. I think he is going to be a very postive player this year.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>excellent post. Can&#8217;t wait for the season. Keep it coming fella&#8217;s.  Would like to see what george hill&#8217;s numbers were last year and a projection for him mooving forward. I think he is going to be a very postive player this year.</p>
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		<title>By: CGD</title>
		<link>http://www.48minutesofhell.com/2009/10/13/ilardi-on-durant/comment-page-1/#comment-8948</link>
		<dc:creator>CGD</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Oct 2009 02:21:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.48minutesofhell.com/?p=4963#comment-8948</guid>
		<description>Nice additions to an already fantastic blog.  Look forward to Ilardi statistical analysis and Bruno&#039;s international perspective.  

Any other wrinkles in the works?

Keep up the good work!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nice additions to an already fantastic blog.  Look forward to Ilardi statistical analysis and Bruno&#8217;s international perspective.  </p>
<p>Any other wrinkles in the works?</p>
<p>Keep up the good work!</p>
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		<title>By: metalandganja</title>
		<link>http://www.48minutesofhell.com/2009/10/13/ilardi-on-durant/comment-page-1/#comment-8945</link>
		<dc:creator>metalandganja</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Oct 2009 01:50:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.48minutesofhell.com/?p=4963#comment-8945</guid>
		<description>*warm fuzzies*

fantastic addition the the blog, guys.  welcome Dr. Ilardi and i look forward to future insight!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>*warm fuzzies*</p>
<p>fantastic addition the the blog, guys.  welcome Dr. Ilardi and i look forward to future insight!</p>
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