Monday, February 22nd, 2010...7:57 am
Detroit Pistons 109, San Antonio Spurs 101
The Spurs and Pistons were tied at the half.
Detroit controlled the game for most of the second half, commanding an 11 point lead at the 4:54 mark, before the game took an entertaining turn. Gregg Popovich decided to intentionally foul Ben Wallace, who has a .438 FT%.
The coaching maneuver worked, and the crowd at the Palace wanted blood. There was a shrill group of women immediately behind the Spurs bench that would make Susie Essman blush. They were in full command of their adjectives. And their suggestions had all the nuance of a rip saw.
The message was simple enough: Gregg Popovich was, putting it less colorfully, less than a man for straying from honest defensive schemes. Where was San Antonio’s championship defense? Where was Pop’s pride? All this, and a handful of insulting remarks about Kwame Brown aside. Poor Kwame didn’t even play.
But back to the Susie Essmans. Here’s where Popovich almost had the last laugh. Hack-a-Wallace was as clutch coaching decision. Almost as clutch as Manu Ginobili, but more on that in a moment. Popovich had watched San Antonio’s lackluster defense give the game away in the fourth, and his hack-a-Wallace tactics were a noble, but ultimately, failed attempt at a “not on my watch!” It was the first time I’ve watched an intentional-foul routine and respected it.
Ben Wallace was 4-10 from the line over a two minute stretch, maintaining his season average. The Spurs reduced Detroit’s lead from 11 to 6 in the hack-a-Wallace span, and then Manu Ginobili happened.
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Ginobili Play-by-Play |
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| 2:38 | Antonio McDyess makes dunk (Manu Ginobili assists) (82-89) |
| 2:19 | Manu Ginobili makes 25-foot three point jumper (85-90) |
| 2:04 | Manu Ginobili makes two free throws (87-91) |
| 1:23 | Manu Ginobili makes 26-foot three point jumper (90-91) |
| 0:44 | Manu Ginobili makes free throw (91-93) |
| 0:27 | Manu Ginobili makes driving layup (Tim Duncan assists) (93-93, OT) |
| 0:00 | Manu Ginobili Cures Cancer |
Most of those things actually happened.
After the game I asked Ginobili if he was aware of is own “clutchness”? Was there a certain feeling that came over him when he went deadly sharp daggers on the opposition?
“No, I don’t think about it,” he replied. “I just wanted to win. We’re not making shots. We’re not getting stops. We’re very inconsistent. I just wanted to win.”
Fair enough, Manu.
But don’t miss Pop’s hand in this. Aside from his team winning the exchange of points with Ben Wallace, he also fouled very early in the shot clock. The seconds-maybe more than a minute-saved in the exchange set the stage for Ginobili; Pop bought his team time for the Manu magic.
And then the Spurs reverted back to form. Overtime was a simple story of missed opportunities. Despite the late-game heroics, Detroit came off with a comfortable victory.
This year’s team has morphed Bizarro. The superhero version of the Spurs is marked by a dogged consistency and peerless execution, on offense and defense. The duplicating-ray-gone-wrong version is inconsistent and sloppy, rarely piecing together a satisfyingly complete 48 minutes.
In the past the Spurs’ kryptonite was the occasional offensive drought. They’ve struggled making shots this season, but still have enough offensive firepower to avoid the offensive droughts of years past. But here’s how the Bizarro thing plays-the Spurs’ new kryptonite is the heretofore unknown defensive drought. Five or six bad defensive possessions in a row, two or three times a contest, and the game is lost.
I boiled all of that offensive/defensive drought stuff down into a simple question, and posed it to Popovich.
“That’s quite accurate,” Pop confirmed, before issuing a soft disclaimer. “I don’t try to blame individuals, team defense is team defense. It is what it is. [It's] about trust, consistency and discipline. We just haven’t had all that on a consistent basis.”
77 Comments
February 22nd, 2010 at 8:13 am
Could this team actually miss the playoffs and would that necessarily be a bad thing.
February 22nd, 2010 at 8:14 am
How can a team have consistent defense and offense when the coach does not put in a consistent lineup? I really hate the quote ” It is what it is.” What is it then? It seems Pop does not have trust in his players, a consistent lineup and is unable to maintain discipline within his team. He should put it on someone. He should put it on him with the lack of consistency. If he comes out and adimits it I think the team will rally around him. Here is another big BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!! That is for Pop not stepping up and putting it on his shoulders.
February 22nd, 2010 at 8:15 am
@Este: It would be a bad thing because this team is a good team and needs to play like one.
February 22nd, 2010 at 8:40 am
Tough game. I think we’re a little road weary at this point. After watching the game, it wasn’t necessarily that our defensive rotations were slow, it was that we couldn’t keep Detroit off the offensive boards. To me that signals physical fatigue more than anything.
Also, at this point in the season, Pop’s lineup changes aren’t the culprit of the Spurs’ problems. It’s the players. At the end of the day, you can have the best play caller on the bench, but it comes down to our guys needing to make plays on both ends. And, for the most part this year, we simply haven’t.
On the bright side, Manu has put together a nice string of games. If there is any hope of a strong playoff run, the health of Manu is paramount.
February 22nd, 2010 at 8:44 am
Does anyone have any data to justify Bogans’s playing time? I know he is supposed to be a tough defender, but he got owned by Richard Hamilton, and contributed next to nothing on offense despite playing 40 minutes.
Why in the world is he playing 40 minutes?
February 22nd, 2010 at 9:01 am
Reporting on hack-a-ben is self explanatory and visually evident that it worked.
My question is, if Pop evaluates over the all-star break that Bonner is an integral part needed to succeed, so much so that Pop wants to start him in 2 consecutive games, why then did Bonner receive a DNP-CD?
Did 2 games change Pop’s mind? Or just reaffirm the 1st 50 games that Bonner is a role player? Or is Pop saying Jefferson is a better 4 than Bonner?
???
And another note, seeing how the Pistons had zero post up players and Hamilton and Gordon were killing the Spurs off screens with slow footed defenders Bogans and Mason, and the Spurs were playing midget ball, why didn’t Pop ever go zone?
February 22nd, 2010 at 9:09 am
Depending on the results of the MRI Tony should be able to get the rest he needs so he can play international ball this summer. You know, because not being able to qualify for the Olympics is a lot better than winning NBA championships. Before anyone mentions the silver France won in 2000 - they got a lucky draw beating the power house teams of Canada and Australia before losing to the U.S.
Good thing France is picking up Parker’s salary this year…wait, what do you mean they aren’t?!?!?
February 22nd, 2010 at 9:10 am
The Spurs may have “enough offensive firepower to avoid the offensive droughts of years past” but that doesn’t mean they actually avoid them. They went 5+ minutes with a single FG three different times against the Lakers and once against Portland. They scored 2 points in a 7 minute stretch against the ferocious Pacers D. They had only one field goal during OT last night until Timmy lined up a meaningless 3 pointer with 0:06 left.
All teams have stretches like this but the Spurs seem to have them every loss. In prior years their defense would dig them out of many of these holes. As you note, that’s the real change this year.
February 22nd, 2010 at 9:17 am
Does anyone know what Pop sees in Bogans? He has no offense, and his defense is way overrated. Bogans made Rip Hamilton look like he drank from the fountain of youth. Rip put a clown suit on Bogans last night.
February 22nd, 2010 at 9:26 am
Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. I get more and more AMAZED by the Spurs with each game. I’m AMAZED that with so much talent, we aren’t able to close out games. Pop has 4 rings, and that is to be respected. I love the guy. But his stubborness is getting to me. He’s coaching very very bad this year.
Also, let me throw it out there (and I won’t be the first to say this): Bogans SUCKS! I can’t emphasize it enough. He is the worst player averaging over 20 mpg in the whole NBA. 4.6 ppg, 2.6 rpg, 1.3 apg, .62 spg in 20.5 minutes. His PER is 8.26, good for 302nd in the league (only 321 players have a PER). Why does he start?!?!?!?! Why doesn’t Finley get his minutes?
I have so many questions. This team just flat out stinks. We can’t play together. Manu and Duncan are the only players in this Spurs team with any heart. I say Pop should step down and go back to the F.O. and hire Avery Johnson. Now that guy has heart and cojones. I’m sure he can teach RJ a thing or two about toughness.
I’m done. We suck. I said it. We suck. It sucks to admit it. I HATE the fact that everyone talks about other teams as elite. Denver, for God’s sake, is better than us. Dallas too. Wow. I never thought we’d look up at them but we are. I have aged like 3 years during this season and I’m only a fan. I LOVE my Spurs. I will continue to cheer for them. But “WOW” is all I can say. I need rehab. I’m addicted to Spurs success and I need to let go. This sucks.
February 22nd, 2010 at 9:28 am
I saw Pop talking repeatedly to Bogans on the sideline, maybe this was his final chance to prove that he can play?
Manu is Manu again. And that is huge, because TD is playing well also. I think it is time to start Manu, without TP there is just not enough offense on the floor to start the games. And maybe, RJ finds his niche coming of the bench and being the focal point of the offense with the second unit.
February 22nd, 2010 at 9:30 am
Amen Alex.
February 22nd, 2010 at 9:31 am
spurs 09-10: seriously, i’d be more excited going to the lottery than to the playoffs.
February 22nd, 2010 at 9:33 am
This season has lost interest from a lot of loyal fans.
Spurs management needs to take some pointers from their Texas rivals. Dallas saw that they needed help if they were going to make a dent in this years playoffs and made a move. The Rockets made a move for the future by acquiring Kevin Martin and two first round picks from New York which should be lottery picks. The Spurs know they needed help by making a change and still did nothing which tells me they are not committed to winning anymore. It seems like just because they
they made made moves in the off season by acquiring RJ and McDyess we should be happy.
It didn’t work! So, you have to adjust again and bring in the necessary players but Jefferson didn’t work bottom line. I have been a loyal fan for years in 2003 I saw we had a player that played with fire and ice in his veins. His name is Stephen Jackson and just think how much better we would be with him and you wouldn’t have needed to make the Jefferson trade.
February 22nd, 2010 at 9:35 am
RJ has been horrible but I still dont want to give up on him i still want to believe that he will fibally come into his own here and contribute quality play. All this talk of “gelling” is fucking bullshit, these “vets” have been in the league for so long but cant grasp pops concepts, since when did guys need to grasp hard plays to throw a good pass, or to hustle or Play quality defense, i understand schemes in the playbooks that might be difficult but it still comes down to basketball in certain instances. Really the only weak spots on the roster Are Bonner, hes a dead accurate shooter but really, do any of you think he’s the type of role player that can help win a championship, really ? Bogans-he’s overrated defensively and terrible offensively cant hit a fucking layup.
Finley-Gotta Love Fin and all that he’s contributed a true proffesional and player but he’s almost 50-ish, time to let him go
Mason-Wants more minutes, got em last night, didnt contribute, if you want more minutes when you get them you gotta prove you can deliver, not just offensively but in other ways
I think the Spurs organization and some of the fans are stuck in the past. Bowen and D-Rob are not coming back, there are no such things as “defensive Stoppers” anymore, when we played D it was always a team concept we need to let go of the old ways of doing things to catch up with the rest of the league, we were always that chameleon team that could adapt to any situations in past years i.e. the battles with detroit and phoenix.
We have too many one dimensional players, i look around the league and see teams that have role players that can do a little bit of everything not just shoot or dribble, not to say that they are Kobe Bryants but damn, whats wrong with having some players who can run and play pesky defense, and grab rebounds, we’re not asking for players n the mold of durant or bryant, too many games have we looked tired and unwilling to run especially against Portland and Okc those are teams I dont want to face in the playoffs given how they give the Spurs so much trouble.
Wish we could have (more) pieces that could help now and also help in the future. The current team is a Playoff team, though the playoffs arent even a given especially with these long days on the road coming up.
As much as it hurts the reality is, Does this team look like it Can actually make a Long Playoff run with the current pieces ? Can we beat any of the other teams out west in a 7 game series, it might be a premature ? to ask but as the days go by thats how we need to start judging our team.
Lets stand behind them no matter what Spurs fans should reflect the team’s and organizations integrity and class not jump ship when they lose
31-23 is a hell of a record for a team thats been up and down, we’d be what, 4th out east ?
February 22nd, 2010 at 9:40 am
This season has lost interest from a lot of loyal fans.
Spurs management needs to take some pointers from their Texas rivals. Dallas saw that they needed help if they were going to make a dent in this years playoffs and made a move. The Rockets made a move for the future by acquiring Kevin Martin and two first round picks from New York which should be lottery picks. The Spurs know they needed help by making a change and still did nothing which tells me they are not committed to winning anymore. It seems like just because they
they made made moves in the off season by acquiring RJ , McDyess and we should be happy.
It didn’t work! So, you have to adjust again and bring in the necessary players when its not working but Jefferson didn’t work bottom line. I have been a loyal fan for years in 2003 I saw we had a player that played with fire and ice in his veins. His name is Stephen Jackson and just think how much better the Spurs would be with him and you wouldn’t have needed to make the Jefferson trade. The worst part of it is we could of acquired him again but he went to Charlotte and look how he has jump started that team.
February 22nd, 2010 at 9:47 am
Reading these posts, we’ve been spoiled for so long by our team. But we have to hope for our teams chances even if they look slim. I still believe the Sours can make noise. Last night was encouraging, we didnt suck like we did other nights, and give credit to Detroit they wanted it, nit saying that to give excuses but it did take them overtime, And Manu has been playing like its 07 agian thats an encouraging sign, if only him and Timmy had some help, No one else has been able to stepp up offensively and take some of the burden off of them when parker is out. We need guys who can take over for a stretch, George is still learning and Dejuan is too. Tony needs some rest and RJ needs Jesus or something, thats who is supposed to help him, but we have to remember RJ is used to faster tempos and he needs someone to create for him, all of his highlights were oops he recieved from J.Kidd, tony and george arent those types of guards. I think he could strive if we pushed the ball more, but Im not a coach so who am I to say that.
We have to get something going though it just doesnt look right sitting in the upper half of the Playoff bracket, thats something foreign for the Spurs, and we need someone with lateral quickness on D RJ, and Mase look retarded and stiff playing defense, bogans IMHO makes boneheaded plays defensively, what would it take to get an athletic forward who can jump, we could mold said player into making good plays defensively. But we need somone who can help timmy anchor the Defense down low, thats always key.
Mcdyess has been playing well, but his defense has been shaky he’s been getting burned.
Right now i’d say that we only match up good(in our favor) with about maybe, 3 teams out west. But im still hoping for improvement.
February 22nd, 2010 at 9:53 am
All of the Poppovich haters need to shut the F@*k up! He doesn’t put the ball in the basket, not turn the ball over, or miss a defensive assignment. We’ve been spoiled by the greatness of the Tim Duncan era since ‘97 and now it seems to be fading. The players play the game and the players win the game, the coach is just the facilitator and I would take Poppovich over anyone else in the league.
February 22nd, 2010 at 10:17 am
leoniss - if this team has lost “loyal fans” this year, I guess those fans weren’t really too loyal to begin with.
Houston made a great move with McGrady’s expiring contract. I think we can expect something of the sort in regards to RJ’s expiring contract next year. RJ is going to be one of the largest trade chips on the market this offseason and next year.
Also, Stephen Jackson wasn’t available at the time. He only demanded a trade after we had acquired RJ. That, and his contract runs past the CBA negotiations.
February 22nd, 2010 at 10:32 am
I’m glad Manu is balling.
Although it would be nice if RJ scored more than 8 points.
Quite frankly, other guys have to step up. Manu and TD did more than enough to win. RMJ had 2 points. COME ON MAN. And he requested a trade?? He’s getting minutes now, put the ball in the hoop. Bogans also had 2 points.
Forget about turnovers and bad D for a second. YOu can’t win if 3 starters combine for 12 points.
The sad thing is all these guys get an insane amonut of wide open looks.
That is why I can’t say the Spurs are dead yet. Those shots have to start going down.
Welcome back MANU.
February 22nd, 2010 at 10:38 am
Everyone has to cool down about Pop. Coaches aren’t the problem it’s the players. Sloan of the jazz is still winning games and he’s been there forever. The spurs need to get ballers if the wanna win. TP and Manu equal ballers, they can score whenever they want. Mason and Bogans, not ballers.
February 22nd, 2010 at 10:46 am
I’ve often thought of what it would have meant if we’d kept Jackson, but he was a malcontent who overvalued himself (as a champion) after his first good season with us, at least until he was reapeatedly humbled by lack of league interest in him despite his stats, and by his suspension/bad press. Fact: not being resigned by the Spurs made his a better NBA pro, not that he was ever the best. ALTHOUGH, having a fiery guy who hates to lose (Mario Ellie) is invaluable to the spurs .
Corey Maggette is big athlete, always can get you points and is also capable of playing good D (but, that’s not what Golden State or the Clippers do), and yet he spurned Pop’s interest in him, just as Vince Carter did.
Regarding the team we do have- any fans who think we can pull it together this season are evidencing pathological denial that probably affects their personal/professional lives significantly. However, the consensus seems to be: play the guys who we think are gonna develop or possibly be a part of this team going forward, this means DNPs for Finley and Bogans the rest of the way. (I don’t believe in Hairston or Ian myself, but whatever.) Probably worth trying RJ as the 6th man. CAN ANYONE MAKE A CASE FOR THE STATUS QUO?… I don’t know what the rationale behind sticking with the current routine is.
@all the GREG POPOVICH fans (and I’m one, too)-
If players can have an down season, or lose their mojo altogether, mentally and/or emotionally, why can’t a coach? Once a great coach, does not mean always a great coach year in and year out. I keep thinking about how, early in the year, he switched practice times to the mornings just because it fit his lifestyle more, even though the players hated it and the inconvenience of having to make two trips to work on the same day. I am quite sure Pop has lost his hunger, too. Or maybe his (better) assistants had more of a positive effect on him and the team in the past. People comment on how a player affects team chemistry in positive or negative ways, obviously coaches do to, especially the head coach!!! I don’t think Holt will throw away money like some dumb owners, and pay out a contract after firing a HOF coach; better to spend that money on player salaries. I’d like to see Coach return to the bench for a few years down the line, but maybe he needs to pull a Pat Riley, and give it a rest. Although Avery would be welcome, I think the Spurs are best off with GP coaching during TD’s last years- what we really need is a much better roster… it’s funny, I’ve come to believe that if we could have had TD-Camby (and Splitter, next year, hopefully!)-Ty Thomas-Blair we would have been able to have a GREAT shot, and could easily upgrade that tough interior. Unlike alot of scenarios (aka, Chris Bosh, or Mark Gasol) Camby and Thomas were doable, and didn’t lock us into anything until we could see what they could bring (we already know what Camby would bring).
February 22nd, 2010 at 10:47 am
Missing the playoffs is a big deal. Even if we get beat in the 1st round, the Spurs would be able to get a few games worth of playoff revenue. And with the Spurs already being over the luxury tax, the additional revenue would be needed. The guys at 48MOH have shared with us on multiple occasions how Peter Holt has pushed all in with this past offseason and the extra revenue would at least be a small consolation for the underwhelming team performance this year.
Also, missing the playoffs and getting into the lottery wouldn’t guarantee the Spurs a good pick. They would most likely be 13th or 14th in the lottery, which isnt’ truly that different from picking 15th - 20th by being bounced in the 1st round. A mid round pick would cost more money, and Pop probably wouldnt’ play him much. So missing the playoffs doesn’t mean we’re getting a top 5 pick.
Tim, anyway the Spurs could work a sign and trade with the Raptors this offseason for Bosh? Dealing maybe RJ and a few other pieces, just so Toronto wouldn’t have Bosh leave for nothing. I honestly have no idea if this is logistically or even reasonably possible, just thought you might be the guy to know. (And nice work getting Pop to answer your question! Have you found a good rhythm in asking him questions and to not get “Pop’d?”)
February 22nd, 2010 at 10:58 am
After every dynasty, there was a period of struggles. Our cornerstone is in his twilight, unable to carry us to a championship on his broad shoulders by himself. Is this Tim’s fault? No. This is life, this is the natural order of things.
We’re on the down-swing. The next 3 years will determine who’s a true Spurs fan and who isn’t. You know what? When I graduate from school and land me a job in 2 years, I’m buying 2 things: a BMW M5 and Spurs season tickets. I’m a true fan.
Are you?
February 22nd, 2010 at 11:07 am
@Td4life
Those of us who still think the season isn’t done aren’t in denial.
Is there a possiblity that they can turn it around, yes. YES!
Manu is back, TD is TD, Hill is getting better and better. Mcdeezy is Mcdeezy and will be there in the long run.
Theres always a chance. And until the Spurs officially don’t make the Playoffs or are bounced in the playoffs, there is always a chance.
Do I think they can win it all right now? no.
Do I think they are still capable of making a run? yes.
And that’s no FAN talk. That’s just the situation they are in.
February 22nd, 2010 at 11:08 am
This season’s failures are on Pop and we should be honest enough to call him out on it. Coach Pop’s past success should not cloud our opinion of his current shortcomings. 18 different starting lineups in the first 54 games of the season are unacceptable. It’s not fair to the fans or the players. How do we expect the players to develop rhythm or chemistry if you keep shuffling them on and off the bench? Our inconstant play has to be attributed to all the mix and match lineups. Pop is guilty of over-thinking the road to success. As Pop intended, we are going to make the playoffs well rested, but we are probable a one and done team. Instead of Duncan going out swinging Pop is going to have him go out well rested. Thanks Pop, thanks for wasting one of Duncan’s diminishing seasons, thanks for all your strategic thinking!
I’ve had my reservations on all the small ball lineups all seasons and I can’t take it anymore. The spurs current personnel are not built for small ball. We only have two legit slashers in TP and Manu. The rest of our wing players are more suited for traditional spurs half-court, post-up ball. We are giving up too many points in transition (Sixers game) and yesterday we got out rebounded by 17.
Remember Pop’s quote “If we don’t win it all this season I should be fired!”
February 22nd, 2010 at 11:38 am
I agree that the defense has made too many mistakes this season that were due to communication and execution more than ability or even effort (outside of the occasional RJ brain cramp). But how many time is their defense out-manned or caught in a bad switch because the offense had yet another unforced turnover? Or because the offense goes eight of nine possessions without scoring?
You can’t keep missing open shots and turning the ball over without paying for it on the other end. It builds momentum and optimism for the opponent. It provides them with fast-breaks. Gets them to the FT line. It makes the game easier for average teams and players. And quite frankly, it’s been the average pieces (see losses to LA without Kobe, Portland without Roy, Denver without Melo and to Philly and Detroit this weekend) that have cost this team in games that should’ve been wins.
February 22nd, 2010 at 11:41 am
Pop has always shown himself to be a smart coach. So why is he running small ball so much when the stats say it is failing? Arrogance or deception? Is he so stubborn on proving he is right by playing Jefferson and Bogans or does he have too much faith that they will show up when it matters? The truth is, we need to get some answers from him if he is counting on loyal fans to cheer on this team in the playoffs. I do not want to see this team below #5 in the playoffs, just to get beaten to a pulp by the Lakers, Nuggets, or whatever team we can’t manage to figure out. Win the division by beating teams now. If Dallas “gels” with these new additions before the Spurs do, which have had all year to do so, this this team should be embarrassed.
February 22nd, 2010 at 11:41 am
Is it time for Pop to step down and the spurs hire Avery Johnson?
February 22nd, 2010 at 11:54 am
Alex you summed up how I and I’m sure many other Spurs fans are feeling this season perfectly. I especially liked the suggestion that Avery should rejoin the team as head coach. I love what Pop has done with the franchise but I think a change might be whats needed.
As for Jefferson, I’d have more respect if he was averaging less than 10pts per game (as he is over the last month) but actually attempting more shots. Every box score reads the same - he rarely takes 10 shots! RJ won’t find his offence if he dosen’t make the attempts. Put the ball up, misses would actually be more productive than what he’s doing. He is a bust right now BUT that can change…
February 22nd, 2010 at 12:12 pm
On the whole gelling question: it’ll be interesting to see how long it takes the dreaded Mavs to “gel” with at least two major new components.
February 22nd, 2010 at 12:40 pm
No matter what sets we run on offense and defense or what plays we call, winning comes down to one simple premise - players need to make plays. We haven’t.
I hate to be the eternal optimist, but one play here or there, and we win in Portland, Philly, and Detroit. Even though we’re not playing anywhere close to playoff basketball, there’s still a chance we can pull it together and make a strong playoff run. The opportunities are there.
February 22nd, 2010 at 12:57 pm
Pop is coaching like he alwasy does. He is not the problem, though Manu of course should start. (But I’ve thought the same thing ever since 2006). It’s been about 800 straight games that the Spurs fall behind early, last night it was 14-4 when Manu got into the game.
But my real point here is that this is the lowest BB IQ team ever for Pop. Jefferson and McDyess JUST DON’T GET IT. After 50 games, Tim, Tony, and Manu are constantly telling players where to go. That is pathetic. This team will never go far because it is not a bright team, pure and simple.
February 22nd, 2010 at 1:10 pm
Too bad the game went into OT, and Ginobli was nowhere to be seen.
Great flop on that Hamilton graze, BTW. Oscar-worthy.
February 22nd, 2010 at 1:23 pm
The Spurs always have a chance, but they can do a lot to increase their chances. They are currently #7 in the West, matched against Denver for the first round. As of now, Spurs will not beat Denver in 7, but probably lose in 5. If they want to win some games, and not see themselves in the lottery special at half-time of a playoff game, they need to take some measures.
Simplify! If Duncan, Manu, and Parker are telling the others what to do, this team is too dumb for Pop’s organization. Find a few plays that work and run them into the ground!
Start the good players! Duncan, Manu, Parker, Hill, Blair, Dice. Off the bench: Bonner, Mason, RJ, Bogans, Finley. If players get tired, get in better shape!
No more small ball! Stats show it sucks with this team, so don’t use it!
3Pt shooters need to make 3Pt shots! This team wins with clutch 3’s.
No more collapses in the end of the game! If we can’t play 4 QTRs, this team better score 100 in 3 QTRs. Just find a way to keep the lead.
February 22nd, 2010 at 1:38 pm
@ Colin: Do you kiss your… never mind. Yes Pop does not put the ball in the basket but he is the leader of the team. I am just calling it like it is. It would be nice for someone to take resposibility for the team. Like I said if Pop does that then the team might back him up because they are playing bad. Im not one to fire the coach, I would like someone to take a stand and let us fans know who is in charge.
February 22nd, 2010 at 1:53 pm
I like Avery; but POP is still my choice to coach the Spurs.
February 22nd, 2010 at 1:54 pm
Why the San Antonio Spurs will Not Make 2010 Western Conference Playoffs
When the Spurs do not make 2010 playoffs, it will be due mainly to one man: Gregg Popovich, arguably the NBA’s most over-rated coach in history. San Antonio Spurs are not an NBA Championship contender in 2010, nor will be until Coach Popovich is replaced.
The Spurs have not had a winning cumulative playoff record since 2006; but they have gotten older with marginal new talent added.
Spurs have won 4 NBA Championships. Popovich deserves credit for these stellar accomplishments, yet his poor coaching decisions also cost the Spurs two NBA Championships.
to read full article click the link
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/341815-why-san-antonio-spurs-will-not-make-2010-western-conference-playoffs
February 22nd, 2010 at 2:11 pm
For those of you that missed my comments from last night, here they are.
February 21st, 2010 at 7:32 pm
Well, hate to say it, but this team is done. Number one, we didn’t make ANY trades that would help us (like, for the obvious, INTERIOR DEFENDER!!??!!??). So, O.K., perhaps I’m simply not privy to some of the details that prevented us from making a deal. So let’s forget that aspect of things for a minute.
We’ve had plenty of time to evaluate our talent & rotations over the first 50+ games, and the team & coaching staff have had essentially a week off over the all-star break to get themselves properly organized & motivated to make a stretch run with the team they have, which by the way, at least on paper still has a talent/experience level that would put them, by the estimation of most, among the top ten in the league. So, point number two: it’s become obvious, most of the players on this team have NO PRIDE, and even more disturbingly, may even be second-guessing their coach, as many commenter’s on this blog do, instead of from the very beginning going out on the court when called upon and hustle their ass off on both ends of the court. This is the ATTITUDE that leads to crappy defense & poor execution because nobody really trusts anybody, and hell, they say, “I’m not going to bust my but on defense when I don’t feel like I’m being played consistently enough, or for enough minutes.” Too many SELFISH players that don’t have a clue about what it takes to COMPETE AT A HIGH LEVEL, NOR THE RESPECT TO CONSISTENTLY WORK YOUR TAIL OFF WHENEVER CALLED UPON BY A COACH WHO HAS WON FOUR F****** TITLES!!
For this team to come out of the all-star break barely beating Indiana, and then losing to Philly & Detroit is embarrassing, and VERY unfair to the loyal fans that are the main reason that these players get paid their exhorbitant salaries.
No question about it, this is a very disturbing turn of events. I never thought this possible, but I believe there is now a 50-50 chance the Spurs will not even make the playoffs this year. That’s what a cancer will do, and it appears that the Spurs may have an outbreak on their team. RJ may have been the bad seed (after all, there’s something a bit wacky about a guy that jilts their fiance at the alter the day of the wedding – and I’m not even into marriage), but I’m afraid it’s likely metastasized at this point. News about RJM wanting a trade because he wants to play more is a hint, but I’d be suspect of anyone not on the 2007 championship roster as being “infected”, although the youngsters Hill & Blair are probably still loyal to the coach as well. The point is, it doesn’t take many bad seeds to upset the apple cart. It’s the only explanation for this team’s ridiculous performance, particularly of late, and the condition may be incurable until we’re given the option of surgery (and we all know that this option is now not for the remainder of this season).
We are officially screwed for this year now. I had hopes coming out of the break that our players might decide to come together & buckle down. Unfortunately, we just pissed that away in the past few days, and there’s no getting it back. The genie’s now out of the bottle.
And whether they’ll admit it or not, I’m afraid our players have implicitly settled for providing Spur management & the fans with a mediocre team of overpaid, uninspiring, underachievers.
The only hope of avoiding a complete embarrassment this year is for the BIG THREE to begin to consistently play at the level they’re capable of (seeing good signs from Manu lately), AND or the big three to do what has in the past been out of character for them: back up there coach, Pop, and VERBALLY HAMMER THE SLACKERS ON THIS TEAM, PARTICULARLY FOR THEIR PITIFUL PERFORMANCE ON THE DEFENSIVE END (which, as you know, is 90% EFFORT!).
And by the way, just as a reminder, it is counter-productive to scapegoat the coach in this case, since he’s unequivocally one of the top coaches in NBA history. Of course, unless you really think the Spurs would ultimately be better without him. Then all you fans & players keep up the second-guessing, because eventually this type of activity spreads a cancer on a team, and at some point a coach can lose control of the team. I’d just say, be careful what you wish for.
And Good Luck hanging in the rest of the way! It’s probably going to be a rocky voyage.
February 21st, 2010 at 11:36 pm
Guys, stop complaining about Pop and his use & rotation of players! You just don’t get a simple fact: POP IS ONE OF THE BEST COACHES IN THE HISTORY OF THE NBA. You might question the minutes of certain players, etc. (hell, even I do more often these days), but that’s NOT THE POINT. Pop has his reasons for who he plays and when, and while YOU and I may not always understand it, he knows WAY more about coaching than any of us ever could.
No, the real problem & main point (besides the fact that guys with more talent are often NOT TRULY EARNING EXTRA MINUTES) is that most of the PLAYERS in the game at any given time are NOT GIVING 100% EFFORT!
GET IT! It’s the PLAYERS that are ruining the Spurs season!
In fact, why don’t you conduct a little experiment. Track which players seem to be living up to their potential on a consistent basis. Look at things that are the most important at their position to execute the game-plan of the team.
Pay particularly close attention to the things that matter most to WINNING. Examples consist of the following:
– level of contested shots for their man/in their zone.
– their man/in their zone scores on a lay-up, either in the half-court or in transition.
– three point percentage
– field goal percentage
– minutes played (what quarter).
And track the following on a per minute basis:
points
total rebounds
offensive rebounds
steals
blocks
turnovers
I know Pop & his staff track all this data and much more (e.g., player attitude, motivation, work ethic in games & practice, level of positive/negative influence on other teammates, physical/mental health, etc.) for every game to decide who to play and when.
Look, I understand your frustration, but unless you can provide accurate information on all these data points (and some reasonable assessment of the intangibles, which frankly, none of us know too much about) to justify minutes played for this player or that player, I’m afraid you have no idea what your talking about.
P.S. The last paragraph pertains to the authors of the “bleacher report article” as well (the link posted here by commenter “SAS”).
February 22nd, 2010 at 2:36 pm
dtree4,
there are some other coaches way better than Aj n pop. give us coach K! or jeff van gundy is also defensive minded coach, im sure jeff would play big ball, use mahinmi to play alongside tim.
February 22nd, 2010 at 3:08 pm
I can understand criticism of Pop. However, it shouldn’t start/stop with him. From the FO on down to the players, everyone deserves some of it.
As for that article from the Bleacher Report - please tone down the hyperbole. Also, no one really cares about a bet you made at your daughter’s basketball game. The author coming out on the right side of a friendly wager is supposed to persuade me of what exactly? Also at the very least, provide some context for some of the arguments. Such as, that RJ’s expiring contract will be a valuable trade chip next summer, that the last year of McDyess’ contract is only partially guaranteed (essentially making it an expiring deal), that the reason we didn’t bring over Scola wasn’t the $3 M salary - it was the huge $13 M buyout, etc. Just stating one side of the coin does more to hurt the argument than help it. It shows me the author really doesn’t know what he’s talking about or too blinded by his emotions.
Also, one other minor point - the player personel decisions aren’t entrusted to Pop (since 2002), but the front office. All the arguments against Pop about off the court dealings should be directed at R.C. and the FO. Pop surely had a hand in it no doubt, but the fact the author ignored/didn’t know this speaks to his credibility.
Again, Pop deserves as much criticism as anyone else, but to lay all the blame for the frustrations of this season (and past seasons) at the feet of the coach goes beyond reason.
February 22nd, 2010 at 3:28 pm
@SAS
What a terrible article. I said this before and now look!
For example “last year I said the Spurs wouldn’t make the WCF”
“last year I picked the Mavs in 6″
What a leap you made! No Manu, a hurt Tim Duncan, Bowen/Thomas/Oberto on their last legs and against a Mavs team that always gives us trouble…because we can not match up with Dirk and have trouble with Terry and Hoard.
Here’s what John Hollinger said before the playoffs (read more of him and learn or maybe you already did and just “borrowed” his ideas)
“On the other hand, let me give you two salient sets of numbers: the Spurs’ 22-16 record without Ginobili and Dallas’s 33-19 record when Josh Howard plays. Since Howard will be present (though still troubled by a bad ankle) and Ginobili won’t, one has to think Dallas might have the upper hand. Additionally, Dirk Nowitzki is nearly as bad a matchup for the Spurs as Parker is for Dallas.
Given how even they appear on paper, I expect a knock-down, drag-out series similar to their 2006 seven-game classic in intensity, if not in importance. And once again, I see the Mavs prevailing.
My prediction: Mavs in 6″
You “write” about making a bet with a friend spelling out exactly how the Blazers Spurs game will go…if you’re that accurate then you really need to stop and move to Vegas.
They don’t have a cumulative playoff record since 2006? I have them at 25-15 (that was a quick count) in the 2007, 2008, 2009 playoffs. If you count 2006 they still have a winning record.
You pretty much close your post with
“Spurs have won 4 NBA Championships. Popovich deserves credit for these stellar accomplishments, yet his poor coaching decisions also cost the Spurs two NBA Championships”
Really? He coached Manu to make that foul? Or for Fisher to make that shot? This is the worst kind of writing. Make bold, sweeping statements to get people’s attention but with nothing actually said.
February 22nd, 2010 at 4:40 pm
Holy crap, Jim Henderson, no need to bludgeon us to death with the copy and pasting. We all read every post, so we’ve probably already read your old ones. My scroll wheel on my mouse started smoking trying to get through that thing.
Why does everyone want AJ to coach? He’s more hard headed than Pop. The Mavs players were having fits under his heavy handed coaching style.
February 22nd, 2010 at 4:57 pm
@Jim Henderson.
Hey, I know you mean well, but this season is frustrating enough. We don’t want to read all that.
Keep it short.
February 22nd, 2010 at 7:19 pm
C’mon man! You don’t expect an unbiased individual to believe this do you?
—————-
“Popovich had watched San Antonio’s lackluster defense give the game away in the fourth, and his hack-a-Wallace tactics were a noble, but ultimately, failed attempt at a “not on my watch!” It was the first time I’ve watched an intentional-foul routine and respected it.”
———————————
You “respected” it because it was YOUR team who was doing it. I’m not saying that an intentional foul routine is inherently bad or wicked or noble or great or whatever. I’m just saying that if another team did it, one of their fans would come up with a similar line about how “it’s different this time.” The truth is that they are all the same. You can’t possibly respect it in one situation and not the other….if you’re being honest with yourself that is. The only difference about this fouling is your team did it. There is no difference besides that point.
In my own opinion i find it pathetic. Intentional fouling is a pathetic thing that pathetic teams do. Remember hack-a-shaq. Teams would do that because they had no shot at stopping Kobe/Shaq. They were the inferior teams. A team which is superior doesn’t need to do that and can win without it. That said, I don’t think it is wrong to do pathetic things to win. Winning matters. So even if you are a coward, if you win, you are a cowardly winner which is not all that bad. The problem is that there are no cowardly champions. If you have to resort to this, you’re not good enough to win a ring anyway, so then what exactly is the point?
February 22nd, 2010 at 7:24 pm
alex,
Regarding your comment that Bogans is the worst playing playing over 20 minutes per game, i was about to correct you and say, nope, Derek Fisher is by far the worst starting player in the NBA. On further examination, Fisher actually has a HIGHER PER than Bogans! That is amazing to me. Fisher is at 9 while Bogans is at 8 and change. I have been talking about Fisher being the worst starting player in the entire league now for months. I am finally going to back off that claim.
February 22nd, 2010 at 7:32 pm
God, you guys need to chill. None of you work for the front office or coaching so stop pretending you know what’s right. Pop and the F.O. are doing the best they can, ITS THEIR JOB. If your a real Spurs fan you cheer for your team every night, and quit criticizing every single thing they do. If not, shut up.
February 22nd, 2010 at 7:36 pm
I want to ask all you guys who are now blaming all this on Pop a question. Have you ever coached? Doesn’t matter what sport. Some times teams just don’t gell. Is this this Pop’s fault? Only partly. The biggest part of the blame goes to the players. They are the professionals and being pros they are supose to play the game. Its quite obvious to me that there is not enough heart on this team. ( there are a few exceptions) As far as Pop changing the lineup as often as he has is becuse the Spurs have underachieved from the start of this year. I know from experience doesn’t matter how good a coach you are when you have a team that is underachieving you try anything and everything. When you do this trying to make it work you will make some mistakes. I also know that some times you need to step back and look at things from the outside to get a proper perspective becuse your to close, and trying so hard you can’t see the big picture. Pop is a great coach, a future Hall of Famer. There is not a better coach in the league right now and even if this year is a total failure. Pop will be a great coach in the future.
February 22nd, 2010 at 8:18 pm
In their fourth game with Dallas, Butler was a +22 and Haywood a +14 and Dallas won its fourth straight. So much for taking half a season to gel.
February 22nd, 2010 at 8:19 pm
junierizzle
ThatBigGuy
etc….
How about commenting on the substance of the commentary instead of its brevity, or lack thereof? Is this blog PRIMARILY a venue to just spout off knee-jerk & unsubstantiated opinions that are often nonsense? Or is it to put some thought into what you’re writing; using reason, logic, data, taking into account the team’s history, and even commonsense?
And really, the fact is, for all you “Pop Blamers” out there, if you can’t offer an answer to last paragraph of my previous comment:
“Look, I understand your frustration, but unless you can provide accurate information on all these data points (and some reasonable assessment of the intangibles, which frankly, none of us know too much about) to justify minutes played for this player or that player, I’m afraid you have no idea what your talking about.”
…….then your endless, “know it all” critique of Pop is not only meaningless (no matter how SHORT the comment), but helps create a very negative aura around the Spur organization that will ultimately hurt the team. Yes, an excess of negative energy coming from fans directed at the “captain of the ship” can in fact hurt the team’s success.
I’ve just been asking if commentator’s can chill on the “scapegoat Pop” parade for awhile. Perhaps in our commentary we could focus on what PLAYER is performing well or poorly each game, and your reasons why, instead of the constant barrage of why did Pop played this player, and not this player? Can you see that this might be a more constructive approach? I think it would allow us to still analyze the game, but maintain a more positive approach.
Hope that wasn’t too long for you!
February 22nd, 2010 at 8:20 pm
@Araz
Thank you!
February 22nd, 2010 at 8:37 pm
I think continuity is important, thats the reason why I have been so upset with the many different line up changes, stick to what is providing the best results and try to improve on that.
Same reason why I’m not a big fan of the get pop out mentality, I have always wondered how the mavs would have faired had they not been in such a rush to get avery out, they went from monsters to mediocre.
I guess the point Im trying to make is that while I dislike many of the moves pop is making I think not having him could be even worst.
It is also a pleasure to see Ginobili playing like that, truly a pleasure.
February 22nd, 2010 at 9:16 pm
Dear Jim Henderson,
No one commented on the substance of your post because no one read that far! I’ve written some long posts, but all of it was new material focusing on new topics, not copy and pasted from other threads. All I’m saying is bring something new. Don’t make me scroll through 100 lines of old material, then make me cross reference old threads to determine what is old, and then have me sort through the new post to filter and process your new ideas. Eventually everyone will scan over your posts.
Sincerely,
ThatBigGuy
Moving on…
Pop is not the problem. Ultimately, the players determine the outcome of the game. Concerning small ball, I’d be willing to bet that the players are on board. If you think the players don’t have a say in this, you’re dead wrong. A team consists of the waterboy, AT, 12th man, HOF’er, assistant and head coach. A true team is a democracy, not a tyranny. The Spurs are a true team, so game plans are discussed during film sessions, in practice, and in shoot-arounds. This happens on the collegiate level, and it damn sure happens on the NBA level. The players just aren’t converting the game plan into success.
It’s the players, guys, the players.
February 22nd, 2010 at 9:20 pm
@ Agutierrez, yeah, I quit believing that bullshit about not “gelling” around 25 games into the season. RJ, McDyess, and the gang have been playing basketball for most of their lives. No matter how difficult the Spurs system is, it’s not brain surgery and Pop didn’t reinvent the game of basketball. Not “gelling” is a bunch of excuse making nonsense. New players come and go all the time in this league and I’ve never heard this excuse used as much as the Spurs did for the first 40 games.
February 22nd, 2010 at 9:23 pm
Wow. It’s past the trade deadline, there are still folks talking about the “woulda, coulda”s of what the spurs should’ve done…people just deal with it…sure the Mavs look better with Haywood in the lineup, but then again a team like the Cavs who are a superior team, don’t look as gelled with Jamison~as it a slow progress. This FO did not make a move for one simple reason: The puzzle they currently have isn’t solved just yet, and by adding in more pieces would just create that much more of a mess. Management is confident with the players they have. They feel they can still win with this team. I, for one, am in complete support here…not just as a blind-spurs fan, but b/c if you really see the talent we have on this team, we should definitely be among the elite in the league—esp. since we run a system that’s been proven to be successful for many years.
This is not Pop’s fault, nor the FO. We can’t really point the finger at anyone until the season’s over. And, I really can’t stand ‘fans’ who think it’s all about a one shot, quick remedy cure for all. It’s exactly like jumping out the window as soon as you smell smoke. C’mon folks, let’s be real here. We have talent and experience, there’s no question about that. It’s just about finding that right mixture that’ll be the potion to our success. Maybe it’s the lack of trust players have for one another, or maybe it’s a dealing of confidence issues, who knows. But, the team’s gonna figure it out for themselves b/c if they don’t, then they’ll be at home watching the playoffs. The season’s far from over, for us to even be think’n about the next one. This team was constructed to win NOW. And, it’s definitely there. People just need to have faith in the organization, that’s been one of the best in league history.
February 22nd, 2010 at 9:23 pm
“If your a real Spurs fan you cheer for your team every night, and quit criticizing every single thing they do.”
Araz - with all due respect, just because you criticize the team, doesn’t mean you aren’t a true fan.
Jim Henderson - I don’t think they were necessarily disagreeing with your post, just pointing out that it was pretty long winded….
February 22nd, 2010 at 10:17 pm
@ agutierrez - are you seriously using a one game sample size to compliment Dallas? They were at home, vs Indiana without Granger.
If one game is evidence, how do you explain the Spurs without TD or TP beating Dallas? RJ had a +9 that game. So much good that proved to be.
February 23rd, 2010 at 12:51 am
Hey, I know I’m getting ahead of myself here, but looking to next year, what do you think of the following trade proposals for during the off-season:
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=yg9s9bb
By the way, have you seen the numbers Collison’s been putting up with the Hornets? Wow, this kid’s got a future, but the fact is, he’s behind CP3.
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=ylhcyzf
Disregard that trade machine says failed.
New York will have HUGE cap relief by season end. Lee, House, Duhon, Hill & Mason (all expiring contracts) would have to be sign & trade parts of the deal.
Outcome:
New York blows everyone away in cap space (they would still have almost 50 mil. in expiring contracts after this proposed trade). They should have a good shot at signing the Hawks Joe Johnson (who Dantoni loves - Johnson used to play for him) & the Raptors Chris Bosh.
With the addition of Parker & Mason, the Knicks would have Parker & Rodriguez at the point, Johnson & Mason at SG, Bosh at PF, the two young studs of Chandler & Gallinari at SF, and they would either resign PF Harrington or get someone else for his 10 mil. expiring contract. They would still need some depth on the front line, including a decent starting center that’s more of a defender than a scorer. Maybe they can steal Haywood from Dallas. All in all, NY could make a solid run in the playoffs in the East with these basic parts in place.
Hornets would have Paul & Hill at the point (Hill would get some time at SG), Thorton & Peterson at SG, Jefferson & Posey at SF, West, Okafor, McDyess, & Songalia at PF/C. That’s a pretty damn good team as well.
The Spurs would have Collison (I like Parker & Hill but this guy is really good) & Duhon at the point, Ginobli (resign!), House (great shooter - probably start Ginobli), & Hairston at SG, Stojakovic (veteran that can spread the floor - seems to have turned the corner on injury issues) & Wright (athletic young talent) at SF, Duncan, Lee (young, double-double machine), Blair (should get more minutes next year), (& sign a relatively cheap but solid, tall defender in the paint). Do not resign Bonner & Bogans (a little over 4 mil. in cap space).
I know it requires a lot of speculation, and remakes our team considerably (building around the young talent of Collison, Lee, Blair, & Wright), but it seems that we’re going to have to head in this direction to give Duncan & Ginobli another shot at a title. So, just for fun, what do you guys think of these proposed deals?
February 23rd, 2010 at 4:37 am
The article was crappy writing but made valid points. Pop is overrated. You have a bunch of homers on here giving him credit when we win titles, but blaming players when we get the Ls?
Pop chooses his team, his strategy, who plays, etc. If he is dumb enough to see that what he’s doing isnt working and he keeps doing it then its on him.
Anyone could have won rings with the teams he won with.
McD was a horrible pickup.
Ive been a fan for 25+ years just because I dont buy into some dumbass coach doesnt make me less of a fan.
The players we have now arent suited for his system. Get new players or a new system. He’s the teacher and shouldnt be making excuses for not being able to teach basketball.
If I teach reading, and Ive got kids in my class who cant read, I dont continually try to make them learn the same way hen they obviously dont understand. That would make me a shitty teacher.
Same principles apply.
February 23rd, 2010 at 4:58 am
Since we are all going back to past comments…how much better would we be doing right now if we had a 3rd point guard who can distribute and hit the odd 3 pointer?
February 23rd, 2010 at 5:02 am
Tyler-
I realize that, but demanding trades and attacking the coach, F.O. and at every opportunity seems a little “unfanlike”… Don’t you think?
February 23rd, 2010 at 5:08 am
If Pop was so great why didnt we play Gooden? Hes having a better year than McDyess….. And I think he has better career numbers.
February 23rd, 2010 at 6:45 am
Araz -
Uncalled for? Maybe. “Unfanlike?” Not necessarily. Imagine if you had been a fan of the NY Knicks the past decade…..
Trade TP - McDyess used to be a beast when he was younger. Before he had knee problems, he was one of the best athletes in the league. From 96-97 to 00-01 he was pretty good. Career #’s are in McDyess’ favor but yes, Gooden is having a better year it appears (although McDyess has come on lately).
February 23rd, 2010 at 7:48 am
Pop needs to fire himself as coach and bring in someone who can take a fresh look at this. Pop truly doesn’t seem to have a clue how to integrate the new pieces. It sucks to see solid efforts by Tim and Manu flushed down the commode for lack of team defensive chemistry.
February 23rd, 2010 at 7:54 am
Spurred On: actually I’m using a four game sample. The Mavs are undefeated with their new lineup.
February 23rd, 2010 at 8:33 am
Tyler-
If I was a loyal Knick fan, I would support every thing they do because they run the team. As I said before, none of you are in the coaching or FO situation, so how could you know what’s best? Being a fan is about supporting your team through the ups and downs, not abanding in ship by attacking the coach and FO at first sign of hardship.
February 23rd, 2010 at 9:34 am
Araz -
Make no mistake - Even though I disagree with some, I, along with majority of people on this board support the guys who wear the silver and black thru thick and thin. We want nothing more than for them to succeed. I cannot even fathom the thought of jumping ship. But blindly accepting the decisions of anyone in the organization does no one any good, the organization included. I’d say one of the worst thing for the Spurs would be to have a bunch of yes-men for fans. If that were the case, we’d accept the status quo, be content with a so-so season. Fortunately, that’s not the case - we expect more (as we should). And if we don’t get it, it’s fans’ job to pressure the organization into action. Where in there did I stop becoming a Spurs’ fan?
Turn the situation around - If you worked for a company, would you blindly support a CEO/board who makes terrible decisions and drives the co. into the ground just because “they run the team?” Of course not! But that’s essentially what you’re saying when you said you would support everything the Knicks do simply because they run the team.
February 23rd, 2010 at 10:46 am
@Jim Henderson-
I was looking for reactions for the proposed swapping of Parker and RJ for Collison and Peja (and getting Ty Thomas in a 3 team deal) before the trade deadline. So, obviously I am in support of getting Collison if at all possible as our pointguard of the future even if it means we have to take Peja (which isn’t all bad)- I know the Hornets aren’t gonna be able to keep Collison as their back up PG, but his trade value is continuing to grow… If they think that RJ might be a better fit with Chris Paul, they might try it as his contact is essentially the same as Peja’s, but they also want to get out form under David West’s 3 years… I was considering that they might like Parker backing up CP3, and next to him in a 2 guard attack. Hill instead? I can buy that. 3 years of McD? Maybe. Collison is better than all those guys though, so if they can get an premier big for him, I think they’d prefer it. David Lee plays GREAT off of CP, as we saw in their sophomore game, but next to Emeka, they’d probably like a better defender.
As for the SAS side of your ideas. I have been critical of Parker, because he’s such a one dimensional scorer. Collison is an earnest defender. I like Duhon alot as a backup PG, but I wouldn’t be suprised if D’Antoni keeps him as his backup. A strong defender as the backup in SA would be good, too, such as Earl Watson. Jarrett Jack and Delonte West bring a lot more than their stats suggest. Ideally, a bigger ball-handling guard creates alot of potential mismatches — I think any coach who would make Manu the pointman would be well-rewarded with wins. So there are alot of options, including surrounding Tony with smart playmakers at other positions. Although, as TP’s speed diminishes so will his value.
I’m not thrilled by the wing players on your roster, other than Manu. I don’t believe in Hairston, and if you are gonna go with the likes of Peja, you better have great overall defense… this is my main knock on David Lee; Lee and Blair gives us a combo that is extremely vulnerable to post-play and slashing guards. For my part, I’m hoping instead for defensive Bigs. Haywood is major improvement to the Mavs roster. Likewise Camby (who can’t do much against the Pick and Roll, but is one of the better shotblockers and rebounders, and still a very, very good help defender) for the Blazers… I’m watching Tyrus Thomas with keen interest.
I’m still thinking trades, because the Spurs still have the potential to contend. Tim, Manu, and Pop are among the best in the game. They definitely need to improve through some pretty major changes, though. Meanwhile, Splitter may never be a Spur, not to mention a great one.
February 23rd, 2010 at 12:50 pm
Tyler
I’m not saying to blindly accept decisions, I’m speaking to those who want to make dramatic changes just because we are struggling a little. Sometimes you have to trust your team to do what’s right, and seeing the spurs success…. They atleast desrve that. Fans have their voice and that’s fine but if something has already been done that you don’t agree with, just move on, and root for your team.
February 23rd, 2010 at 2:25 pm
Trade TP:
If you haven’t already, read my comment on this post - February 22nd, 2010 at 2:11 pm.
Some of your points in your - February 23rd, 2010 at 4:37 am - comment are nonsensical.
For example, you say,
“Anyone could have won rings with the teams he won with.”
Oh, and Phil Jackson’s not a great coach because he won with Michael, Scotty, Shaq, Kobe, etc.? Red Auerbach’s not a great coach because he won with Russell, Cousy, Sam Jones, John Havlicek, etc.? You’re joking me, right?! ALL of the “great” coaches won titles with their fair share of great players!
“McD was a horrible pickup.”
I hate to tell you, but a lot of valuable opinions are consulted within the organization before a trade is made, and management/owners make the final decision on whether to acquire a player based on a whole host of issues, not just on the player’s ability. Pop’s input is far from decisive on these matters.
“If I teach reading, and Ive got kids in my class who cant read, I dont continually try to make them learn the same way hen they obviously dont understand. That would make me a shitty teacher. Same principles apply.”
You do realize this is a terrible analogy, don’t you?! With KIDS one needs to provide constant reinforcement and employ creative strategies to help DEVELOP THEIR BRAINS to effectively process learning. The SPURS PLAYERS are grown adults, with MATURE BRAINS (with varying degrees of “intelligence”) and most of them are experienced veteran players. And let’s face it, one doesn’t have to be a “rocket scientist” to play effectively within any system in the NBA. Further, the PLAYERS are being paid huge salaries to maximize their god-given skills, play as a team, and trust & respect their coach’s leadership & decision-making. If they’re not learning from Pop it’s not because of his teaching, it’s because they are being selfish, stubborn, or lazy. The PLAYERS cannot be compared to KIDS!!
Please start putting the primary responsibility where it belongs: ON THE PLAYERS!
Thank you.
February 23rd, 2010 at 9:37 pm
lets all understand one thing the spurs suck. they have done very little to improve their team over the last 4 yrs they keep signing guys that are way pass their prime. the RJ signing was a huge joke all my spur buddies were talking about how RJ was a HUGE move for the spurs.
I told them all RJ sucks! he did nothing in the olympics, he was slightly above avg w/the nets because of one reason KIDD 7 w/the bucks well that team is actually worst then the spurs & if you shoot 30 times a game your going to be the leading scorer on that team. put on a team w/my 7,5 and 3 yr old grandkids guess what I will be the leading scorer.
Another thing I have never like pop he’s not a good coach he happen to coach a team that got the big 3. barry switzer wasnt a good coach he happen to get a great cowboy team that he ran into the ground. spurs suck!
February 24th, 2010 at 4:30 am
Jim Henderson =
1. Yes, Im saying that with the players we had there are more people than Greg who could have won 4 titles.
2. McDyess- So you want to give pop credit for drafting players, but when we make a horrible pickup its the rest of the FO. Great job.
3. Analogy- You keep contradicting yourself which is even more humorous than your last post. If the players are this smart then why does pop continue to make the new players excuse? Why does pop get credit for being a great coach if it is simply the players?
Jim your mancrush on POP is amusing. But this is where you get into trouble. “players win and lose games” then follow with “pop is the greatest coach because he WINS championships”
February 24th, 2010 at 2:16 pm
@ Trade TP
First of all, let’s stop making ASSUMPTIONS about what I think, and stop putting words in my mouth. That’s a good place to start.
In reference to your points 1, 2 & 3 above:
1.) This statement calls for complete and utter speculation, with no substance to back it up. It is a statement that is impossible to prove or disprove. Yeah, and a handful of coaches in the league could have won as much with Jordan, Bryant, & Shaq as Jackson. I doubt it, but hell, nobody can disprove it so it’s effective to take Jackson down a peg. And …. it’s ridiculous.
2.) No I’ve NEVER given Pop credit for drafting players. Others may have; I haven’t. He get’s some credit, but I don’t emphasize his role in bad or good player acquisitions because it’s clearly a collaborative effort. I focus on how Pop performs is main role — coaching. And that he does with the best of them, even in the midst of a very disappointing season thus far.
3.) First, your analogy was comparing Pops teaching of highly paid, fully developed ADULTS with a teacher helping a KID learn in school. IT IS A FAULTY ANALOGY (as explained above), and you’ve provided no evidence to suggest otherwise. Second, I have not contradicted myself. Pop has not abused the “new players” excuse (unless you care to show me evidence to the contrary). When questioned earlier in the season by the media, he simply offered it as an honest explanation for the Spurs struggles early on. If this “excuse” appears to linger, fault the media, who simply don’t want to be honest about the travails of a revered franchise & perennial contender: THE PLAYERS ARE BEING BABIES ABOUT THEIR OWN PERFORMANCE & LOOKING FOR A SCAPEGOAT, just like many people on this blog.
Finally, yours and others’ scapegoating of Pop for your own frustrations is getting nauseating. And, you’re making up quotes purportedly by me in your final paragraph; “players win & lose games”, and “pop is the greatest coach because he WINS championships”. I NEVER said these words. However, YOU CAN QUOTE ME ON THIS, players & coaches & the entire organization are, in total, responsible for sustaining a winning franchise (by the way, Spurs selected “franchise” of the decade by the NBA this year), but it is unequivocally the PLAYERS themselves that are by far the MOST responsible for success or failure in a given year. That said, some coaches WITH THE SAME ORGANIZATION & PLAYERS would not win a championship, while a MINORITY of other coaches would. And vice-versa, in a given year, THE SAME COACH could very well win a championship with one set of PLAYERS, but not with another. It’s just that the PLAYERS are MORE (not completely!) RESPONSIBLE for winning championships than the COACH. Pop is one of the greatest coaches of all-time for a variety of reasons (not just for winning championships) that I won’t bother to enumerate at this time.
February 25th, 2010 at 4:42 am
jim - you’re whole argument is faulty. You claim that players are the key to success then you conclude with pop is a great coach. Doesnt work. If the players are the means of success then a coach has absolutely nothing to do with their winning or losing.
what is pop supposed to do? Teach. What are players supposed to do? Learn. If the students or players arent getting it, what do great teachers/coaches do? Reteach and find a new path for success. For someone who “understands” what a great coach is or does, this should be easy for you to grasp. If a kid doesnt understand 2
+2 = 4 then you dont just keep asking him what 2
+2 is and expect a different answer.
Next, I agree with you about the players being adults and further professionals. What I disagreed with was Pop claiming his “over 50%” new roster was the problem early on. Just stating that multiple times in PCs made me realize that he has no idea how to work these players and that his system was basically the TD show.
Again if these were grown adults who need no guidance then why have coaches? And how would any coach be considered “great?” Pop positioned himself in a great place at a great time. Awesome businessman, sure. Great coach? Not really. To be great you dont just win with the best. But you find ways to win with what youve got. Pop has been able to win with the best, but in no way have I seen him turn any teams around, or get more from an average team than expected.
February 25th, 2010 at 2:34 pm
Trade TP:
Things in life are often not “black & white”, “completely this” or “completely that”. I’m sure you recognize that. Yet, you have a tendency to make your argument in “absolutes”.
For example, you say “jim – you’re whole argument is faulty ……. If the players are the means of success then a coach has ‘absolutely nothing’ to do with their winning or losing.” Did I ever say the players are THE means of success? NO. I said they are simply and INHERENTLY MORE RESPONSIBLE for the team’s success than the coach. That does NOT mean that the coach has NOTHING to do with their winning or losing. Apparently you don’t understand logic. ALL coaches have less influence over their teams success then their players. THAT DOES NOT MEAN THE COACH IS NOT IMPORTANT. Compared to other coaches, each of whom have less influence on success than their players do, Popovich is one of the most successful for maximizing the opportunities that a coach can have to influence the outcome, and ultimately win championships.
I’ll give a brief example for you that’s more concrete. My contention (which virtually any paid analyst, coach, or player would agree with) is that players have a LARGER influence on a teams ultimate success than their coach. No one knows what the exact figure is, but for example, to make it concrete for you, let’s guesstimate that the PLAYERS are ultimately 80% responsible for winning a championship, the coach 15%, and other management & staff 5%. Now, one cannot discount that 15% that the coaches have (it is important), it just does not have the WEIGHT or influence that the players’ 80% has. Now, WE MAY DISAGREE on how effectively Pop uses that theoretical 15% compared to other coaches in the ultimate goal of winning championships, but my argument is NOT FAULTY in the way you describe in your first paragraph above.
You say:
“What I disagreed with was Pop claiming his “over 50%” new roster was the problem early on.”
I disagree. There’s nothing wrong with Pop offering that as a possible explanation early on when probed by the media. In fact, this may have indeed been a problem early on. There’s nothing wrong with acknowledging it. I’m sure it was meant simply to give his players confidence that we’ll work through our chemistry issues before long and start playing better. That’s all.
In your final paragraph again you’re inaccurately using “absolutes” to characterize my position and make your argument:
“Again if these were grown adults who need no guidance then why have coaches? And how would any coach be considered “great?”
I didn’t say the adult players needed NO guidance. However, they do need a lot LESS than KIDS. That was my point in critiquing your analogy.
You say:
“To be great you dont just win with the best. But you find ways to win with what youve got.”
I hate to clue you in, but there’s been more talented teams than some of the Spurs title teams that did NOT win a championship. There’s NO question about that. Your assessment is incorrect here.
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