Monday, March 8th, 2010...8:18 pm
Matt Bonner unaware of his own awesomeness
There is a proper recap in the works (and I submitted a piece for tomorrow’s Daily Dime), but I wanted to lighten the mood after a tough loss.
In the postgame locker room I asked Matt Bonner what it felt like to live the life of an adjusted plus/minus poster child?
“Wait, adjusted what?” And then Bonner greeted me with the most blank-faced born and brazed on New Hampshire sandwiches stare I’ve ever witnessed, and I’ve seen my share.
For a moment he thought of faking his way through an answer, but finally fessed up. “Wait, what is it, really? I have no idea.”
I rattled off a quick summation in cool sounding stat-boy spiel.
“Really, who keeps track of that?”
But before I could answer, he gave his final word.
“I’m sure it has everything to do with the other guys on the floor. I just try to make my shots.”
56 Comments
March 8th, 2010 at 8:36 pm
I hope someone will talk about the no-call on the last shot by RMJ?!!! If that isn’t a foul on the jump shot then I don’t know what is?!!!! On the highlight it looked like he got hammered!! That shot and Ginobili’s toe on the line changed the whole game. I did not watch the game and I’m sure the refs got the call on Ginobili right, but Damn!! I’m sure there will be others who will comment, I just wanted to bring that up.
March 8th, 2010 at 8:53 pm
if RJ didn’t travel on that dunk where no defender was even going to touch him, or when he had 4 good looks at the 3 at the end, we could have won. great to see Ginobli and Hill play stellar though.
March 8th, 2010 at 9:31 pm
I was at the game and actually a couple rows behind the bench tonight so I will start with this:
To the author, how many times did Bonner F up in our loss. The answer = too many to count. Thats why the adjusted BS is just that. Bonner cant pass the eye test so dont try slinging stats around to make him seem effective. Hes not.
I would also like to add that Hill can definately take Parker’s spot. Enough on that topic.
McDyess is still a McDouche and shouldnt play at all.
Finally, and the most important aspect I would like to draw attention to was the way Jefferson basically cried on the court today. With 2 minutes and change left in the second RJ defends his man to where he “thinks” help defense (TD) will be. TD is not there, easy bucket. Jefferson yells at Tim and they get into a spat going back to the bench. Jefferson refuses to sit during the first few seconds of the timeout basically crying about the last play. Hilarious sequence of events other than rotational moves again.
Manu/TD/Hill look like the only ones on the same page.
Talk about Bonner’s Awesomeness when he had a rebound stolen from him or when he cried laying on the court tonight. That was “awesome.”
March 8th, 2010 at 9:49 pm
@Trade TP
BONNER was fouled on that play where they stole the ball from him.
I put the loss on bad shooting from the supporting cast. RMJ. 1-9 from the floor. 0-8 frome 3 point land. And missed two wide open looks to tie the game. MCDEEZY 2-7 I believe.
They pushed the lead to 7 in the third when Mcdeezy hit two shots. Then the Cavs came back when MCD missed 3 shots. ALl wide open.
EIther one could have help win the game if they hit a couple of more shots.
RJ 1-4 plus that insane travel. I’ve never seen anything like that.
RMJ REQUESTED A TRADE?
I wanted RMJ to get minutes but man, he hasn’t produced when he IS in there this year.
HILL was good,his D not so much but his scoring made up for it.
I feel bad for MANU. He practically gave the SPURS the win on a silver platter but the other guys couldn’t help him out.
It’s hard as sh*t to win when you can’t consistently hit wide open shots. ANd I mean wide open. On the other end the CAVS have to do cross-overs and spin moves to get shots and they MADE em. SPURS can’t hit a simple wide open shot and lay-up.
I gotta blame POP a little too. HAIRSTON looked good in those minutes. He got a dunk. and got to the rack, missed the lay-up but still.
He should have had him in there when it was clear RMJ didn’t have it.
HAIRSTON could have gotten you at least 6-8 points.
THen with 6 minutes and a 5 point lead he sits MANU. WHY?? I know he rests MANU at the wierdest times, but not when MANU is feeling it like tonight.
It ain’t over til its over but this is exactly how they are going to get bounced in the first round.
Lack of simple WIDE OPEN shot making.
March 8th, 2010 at 9:50 pm
Oh and BONNER was awesome tonight.
March 8th, 2010 at 9:53 pm
MANU, TWO CLUTCH STEALS, SHOTS, ASSISTS!!!
Come on guys help him out.
March 8th, 2010 at 10:03 pm
Dear Mr Varner,
Did you tell Matt Bonner that I am his warrior for Justice round here?
Dear Tradetp,
I think pretty much everything you wrote makes orphaned children cry, and would refute it further but honestly I just couldn’t be bothered anymore.
I for one do not find tonights loss to be that terrible.
The end.
March 8th, 2010 at 10:13 pm
Trade TP
It sounds like you are looking for more flaws in the team/game that affect you personally rather than anything else? What do you say about the last shot by RMJ? Was it a foul? What do you think about RMJ’s shooting performance (1/10 in 25 min)? At least Bonner had 9 points and 5 rebs in 19 mins compared to RMJ’s 1/10 performance echoing his ‘09 playoff debacle or disapperance.
By the way dude, Bonner tallied the same # of rebounds as Duncan tonight…….5
McDyess is showing his mileage so I would agree with ya on that one.
How about Ginobili dude? You wanna trade him too? I bet tonight’s performance was something to behold in person? What about Duncan’s pedestrian stat line? Varajaeo had a similar stat line to Duncan and even out-rebounded him tonight. That to me was a difference-maker and stands out more to me than highlighting what Bonner “didn’t do.”
……and Jefferson……well, I didn’t think anything about his performance was “hilarious” (your words). I get that you are frustrated, but the hater-esque posts do get repetitive…….we also get that you don’t like Parker.
March 8th, 2010 at 10:28 pm
0-8 on 3’s. take a bow, rmj.
3 turnovers in 5 minutes. mr. mahinmi, you too.
March 8th, 2010 at 10:54 pm
Manu should be the focal point of the offense for as long as he can. He runs the point as awesome as Nash. After a game like this, I wouldn’t blame Manu if he wanted to leave in the offseason.
Manu should just run the point from now on.
March 8th, 2010 at 11:30 pm
Bonner grabbing the rebound and handing it to Hickson for a layup to cut the lead from 6 to 4 at the end of the 3rd qtr was sad to watch. Looked like an 6th grader getting the ball snatched by a high schooler. This is the NBA, secure the damn rebound. Hold on long enough to get a jump ball call at least, like crappy Jefferson did when double teamed in a pick and roll. Yeesh.
March 9th, 2010 at 12:50 am
@tradeTP, deeo down you know a healthy TP wins this game. But lets just pretend the trade deadline wasn’t over…
@junierizzle, lets trade the dudes missing wide open shots
@Ivmainman, trade the expectations for perfection from Bonner
@Andy, trade mahinmi
@Sauce, trade RJ
@Bushka, trade the lowered expectations. The Cavs minus LeBron are a lottery team. The Spurs should have run away with this game.
@Colin, let’s trade Ginobili’s big toe
March 9th, 2010 at 12:53 am
The entire NBA not named Popovich is also unaware of Bonner’s awesomeness.
March 9th, 2010 at 1:09 am
@CHILLFAN
I think all those dude were on the trading block but no takers.
And we all know the Spurs should have ran away with this one tonight. But its hard when you can’t hit shots, go cold and next thing you know you’re down by 1. Eventually the other team is going to take the lead if you stop scoring.
They actually got lucky cuz for a stretch neither team could make a shot in the 4th. If it wasn’t for MANU they probably would’ve lost 10.
Oh, that trade Manu’s big toe line was funny.
Those are the breaks. Look at Kobe on Sunday.
March 9th, 2010 at 1:12 am
I don’t understand ChillFAN?
The entire NBA doesn’t tend to pay much attention to 16 minute a night role players.
March 9th, 2010 at 1:13 am
Manu puts up 38 points, wins Best Picture Oscar.
March 9th, 2010 at 1:47 am
Why is Pop giving RMJ the final shot?!? Just whyy??? He was 1-9 from the floor, 0-7 from 3 until that moment.
Manu was just 7-11 from 3, but why give HIM the final shot? Too predicatable?? I don’t care!!! RMJ had so many open looks and couldn’t hit a single one from 3 all night!! He isn’t Mr Clutch anymore, he’s gone ice cold this year. Maybe it’s not entirely his own fault but come ooon?? He’s only shooting 40% from the field now , 35% from beyond. Sounds a little JR Smithish, only that RMJ seemingly can’t erupt anymore! This may sound illogical now but he should get the starting job for a few games, otherwise he will continue to shoot poor % for the rest of the season and throughout the playoffs. Last year I loved him as a starter, this year I just think he’s been terrible off the bench for most of the time.
Tough loss, never again will it be so “easy” to win against the Cavs,in Cleveland. Now we lost 7 of the last 8 against’em. In the mean time , Dallas won again……and they are slowly building a comfortable lead.
March 9th, 2010 at 2:46 am
Thumbs up @junierizzle
http://cache.goingconcern.com/_old/two%20thumbs%20up.jpeg
March 9th, 2010 at 4:19 am
Im super happy for +/- of Matt, he really played really but really well yesterday..
in the other hand, Jefferson cost us a game
nuff said.
I mean how are u supose to lose if Manu is playing like that ??!
March 9th, 2010 at 5:04 am
ok while pop is IMO a top 3 coach ever, HE BLEW IT last night. the final play of the game he had bonner on the bench and roger “broad side of a barn” mason jr in. bonner was shooting pretty well, mason was shooting 1-9 (at th made time) and 0-7 (at the time) from 3. maybe pop just thought “he is due he HAS to hit something. he had richard “cant hit” jefferson in as well, it just made no sense.
March 9th, 2010 at 5:08 am
Tough loss last night….Manu has been playing out his mind this season…but WHY was RMJ taking that 3 to win the game???? The guy has been horrible for over a month already….Hill was sitting at the wing for an open 3, but Pop drew up the play for mr. 0-7…tough…Hopefully they get over this and win at least the next three games. Should be wins for a team of this caliber, but anything can happen.
On another note…I dont think I mind seeing the Spurs being the seventh seed. As long as they can play well going into the playoffs I believe they have a shot to beat Dallas. I know they made a great move by picking up Hayward and Butler, but guys, this is the Mavs…why wouldnt SA have a shot.
March 9th, 2010 at 5:26 am
Well, technically, Adjusted Plus-Minus attempts to account for what teammates do. So, Bonner’s APM is just based on Bonner.
March 9th, 2010 at 5:30 am
I know, I know, Alger. He wasn’t interested. I was just a nerdy guy asking stupid questions.
March 9th, 2010 at 6:18 am
1-10 from RMJ
That’s what lost us the game. I know the law of averages says he’s going to hit his next 3pt shot, but if you’re having an off night, you’re having an off night.
Don’t run the play for RMJ
March 9th, 2010 at 6:35 am
Tim, notice how Mason and RJ played the majority of their minutes together?
I think you need to ask Pop about it. Even if you get “Popped” you may get it into his head.
Ask: “Coach Pop, when two guys play so negatively together like Mason and RJ, do you try to get them to work it out by forcing them to play together for the good of the team?”
I just went through the play by play. They played 18:36 seconds together of the game where we were outscored 34-35 (including Manu’s three to end the game). In the 29:24 they weren’t on the court together, we lost 61-62. They really killed both offenses or were subbed in against Cleveland’s not as good offensive players.
In their first 5:01 on the court together we outscored 3-12.
They also both finished with positive PM’s. That means in RJ’s 10 minutes without Mason, we were +3. In RMJ’s 7 minutes, we were +6. In other words, we were +7 in the 17 minutes they played separate but -1 in the 19 minutes they played together. Shit. And again, that should be -4 if Manu doesn’t sink that final three.
March 9th, 2010 at 6:38 am
I think we need to start Hill-Bogans-RJ and let Mason and Manu come off the bench together. Or start Mason, Manu, and Bogans and let RJ and Hill come off the bench.
March 9th, 2010 at 6:42 am
I started to ask that question…notice how I have no comment to report. Not afraid of being Popped. It happens.
Popovich isn’t fielding questions about lineup changes based on APM.
March 9th, 2010 at 6:43 am
@BlaseE, I kept track of the lineups during the game. At a few points, I developed a twitch.
March 9th, 2010 at 6:44 am
@BlaseE, Hill, Mason, Manu ought to start, IMO. Jefferson plays better from his bench role. And yes, I’m in favor of starting three guards, but with two bigs. That’s the best sans Parker combo.
March 9th, 2010 at 7:07 am
The last play wasn’t really designed for Roger to take the shot. It was a read-and-react. If George Hill’s man stayed in the corner Roger was to take the shot. But instead he rotated to Roger and left George alone for a high percentage corner three. Roger screwed up by taking the shot (especially since he was ice cold).
@Colin, Roger did flop after the shot but was not fouled.
March 9th, 2010 at 7:09 am
And where’s BallHog? I need another lecture on the awesomeness that is Ian Mahinmi.
March 9th, 2010 at 7:24 am
If you start the three guards, which I’m not entirely opposed to….
At the 6:00 mark, do you sub Bogans and RJ for Mason and Manu? Let Hill play all or most of the 1st. Then work Mason and Manu back in so you try to end the second with Manu and Hill on the court?
I was half joking about that question to Pop. I know I couldn’t ask it. I am somewhat curious if Pop has ever forced two players who aren’t gelling to play instead of working around them, especially in the regular season when you have a deeper rotation.
March 9th, 2010 at 7:39 am
@ doggydogworld
If Pop puts Mason on the court, he takes the shot when he gets it. If Mason is cold and shouldn’t take the shot then Pop needs to put someone else out there. I don’t have any problems with him taking it. A good amount of his shots looked good on the night. They just weren’t falling.
March 9th, 2010 at 7:49 am
@Blase, Hill+Bogans at guard is pure, undiluted death for the offense. A natural 2-guard and a non-guard against NBA competition? Shudder. Pop works really hard to avoid that horror show, but when he felt like Manu needed a breather halfway through the 4th he tried it for 1:30. The Cavs immediately went on a 5-0 run to tie the game at 85 and would have led 87-85 had Bonner not drawn a charge on Varejao.
Here are your best options for 2 guard when George plays point:
1 (by far). Manu. George doesn’t run the offense, mostly goes to Bowen corner and waits.
2. RMJ. Even when Roger is cold this combo works OK because he attracts attention from the defense and can create a little.
3. Malik. Not really a good combo, just less awful than pure, undiluted death.
4. There is no 4. Or maybe RJ. Or the new Cedric guy. Anything to avoid Hill+Bogans as guards.
March 9th, 2010 at 7:55 am
@Blase, it’s everyone’s duty to pass for the higher percentage shot and corner 3 is the best shot on the court. If Roger can’t make the right pass he can’t be in the rotation. Hot or cold’s got nothing to do with it.
March 9th, 2010 at 7:56 am
Our guard rotation is just way too shallow without Parker and Finley unless Hairston and/or the new guy can take some burn. I see your point doggydogworld, I just don’t think we have many options to sustain 48 minutes of good guard play….especially if Mason is cold, shooting 1-10.
I’m kind of missing JV. He never turned the ball over and was a smart leader who knew the system.
March 9th, 2010 at 8:08 am
Yeah, JV ate minutes. He struggled on defense, though. Casual fans hated him worse than Bonner.
March 9th, 2010 at 8:21 am
Yeah, but he can’t pull himself from the rotation. Again, if he can’t make the right pass, then he shouldn’t be on the floor or the team. He took the shot because he felt like he could make it.
83 of our 95 points were from Manu (38), Hill (23), Duncan (13) and Bonner (9) on 30 of 55 shooting (55%). They also had 17 of our 22 FTA’s, 15 of 21 assists, 8 of our 13 offensive boards, 5 of 14 turnovers in 53% of our minutes.
The rest of the team had 12 points on 5 of 29 (17%) with 5 FTA’s. How can you win a game when 7 players combine for 17% shooting and don’t get to the line? I can’t believe we lost by 2. I mean even without Mason’s 1 of 10, six other players combined for 4 of 19 (21%). The only major thing these guys really helped on was defensive boards where RJ had 9 and Dice and Bogans each had 3.
Jamison finished with a +/- of -4 and Varejao finished with a +10 off the bench. If Jamison wasn’t hurt, I’m not sure Varejao gets 30 minutes.
March 9th, 2010 at 11:04 am
I think we would of won if the dumb refs would have counted that offensive goal tending in the first half.
March 9th, 2010 at 11:09 am
I love Bonner bashing. According to 82games. he has a PER of 16.6 (average is 15, also he out produces opposing power forwards by .8). According to the wages of wins, he had a wp48 of .190 through the first half of the season (average is .1). So according to production metrics he’s above average. Various sources of +- also like Matt Bonner. Pop, winner of four NBA championships, likes Bonner. Yet so many fans think Pop’s and idiot for giving him so many minutes.
Bottom line is production metrics say he is above average, +- says we play better with him in, and Pop is willing to go with him. I say we keep him. Also … RED ROCKET!!!
March 9th, 2010 at 11:14 am
+20 for bduran.
March 9th, 2010 at 11:59 am
TradeTP
March 8th, 2010 at 9:31 pm
“Finally, and the most important aspect I would like to draw attention to was the way Jefferson basically cried on the court today. With 2 minutes and change left in the second RJ defends his man to where he “thinks” help defense (TD) will be. TD is not there, easy bucket. Jefferson yells at Tim and they get into a spat going back to the bench. Jefferson refuses to sit during the first few seconds of the timeout basically crying about the last play.”
This is an example of what has been happening far too often all season long, and is more than anything why the Spurs are underachieving this year. You can see the disgust all over Duncan’s face. And I sense he’s getting truly sick of this crap.
March 9th, 2010 at 12:13 pm
Ivander
March 9th, 2010 at 1:47 am
“This may sound illogical now but he should get the starting job for a few games, otherwise he will continue to shoot poor % for the rest of the season and throughout the playoffs. Last year I loved him as a starter, this year I just think he’s been terrible off the bench for most of the time.”
Even after Mason’s terrible shooting night, I agree, and I alluded to this in a previous comment from yesterday. Some guys simply play better as starters, and Mason appears to be one of them. I would start Mason at SG (try to give him CONSISTENT minutes) and try Hairston at SF. We need for Mason to find his rhythm, and I believe Hairston would simply be more productive on both ends than Bogans if given a chance.
March 9th, 2010 at 12:59 pm
I am 100% behind Tim’s 3 guard starting rotation.
We did that a lot last year when injuries hammered us and it worked well.
RJ needs to return to the bench. For whatever reason (and i’ll never understand the whole thing about being more comfortable starting or being key reserve), he was starting to swing it around while coming in as a reserve.
March 9th, 2010 at 1:43 pm
Bushka
March 9th, 2010 at 12:59 pm
I’m not sure what you mean by the following:
“RJ needs to return to the bench. For whatever reason (and i’ll never understand the whole thing about being more comfortable starting or being key reserve), he was starting to swing it around while coming in as a reserve.”
But RJ didn’t start in the Cav’s game. So I’m confused by what you mean.
In my previous comment, I was referring to MASON (RJM). I like RJ coming off the bench. And I’m saying that Hill, Mason, & Hairston could technically be considered a 3-guard rotation. You could start Manu at SF (as a 3rd guard) if you want more offense in starting line-up for some reason. I just thought that Pop generally likes to emphasize defense in his starting line-ups, and include a good balance of players who do & don’t need touches on the offensive end.
And Manu is the type of player where he’s just as good whether starting, or playing major minutes off the bench. It’s not so much the “starting” vs. being a “key reserve” that’s causes problems for some players. It’s more of just not getting significant minutes at regular intervals that I think could be contributing to Mason’s struggles, for example. This is just an observation and a technical issue that I raise, “not a pass” to Mason for his underachievement this year in any way, regardless of his role.
March 9th, 2010 at 2:13 pm
@Jim Henderson:
That’s what I mean!! If we can’t somehow get RMJ going we have a big problem. (Like we have had all season).Bonner is very slowly finding back his touch, George Hill is good from beyond one night, not so good the night after. Bogans has been..well..not so good for most of the time and I think that if RMJ had started the games instead from the beginning of the season on, we wouldn’t be in 7th place right now.
The Spurs just need guys who can hit their threes night in night out, and this hasn’t been the case this year.
I really can’t wait to see what Pop is going to do…
If Mason continues to struggle I remain very pessimistic about the remainder of our season and about the playoffs.
March 9th, 2010 at 3:13 pm
Colin - Bonners 9 points and 4 rebounds are negated because he gives up fast breaks on a minutely basis. Brick by Bonner, who is the the furthest from the rim, leads to his man somehow beating him to the other bucket….
Tim gave the game away tonight, his pass to Cleveland late in the game sealed the deal.
I dont think I said to trade Manu, unless it was a packaged deal with Parker.
And my “hater-esque” posts are more truthful than the majority of Homer-esque posts.
Speaking about a statistic to sum up a players game is ignorant. Much like using only the RPI to rate college teams.
Bushka- everyone pays attention when bonner gets in, they all hope and pray that he plays defense on them. CAREER NIGHTS FOR EVERYONE IN ONLY 16 MINUTES.
So who is at fault for not hitting shots? Players who cant “get comfortable” because of poor, inconsistent lineups, or coaches who have worthless players?
March 9th, 2010 at 3:56 pm
Trade TP
We’ll have to agree to disagree. Speaking the “truth” in your instance comes when you entitle yourself to your own facts. In reality though its only your negative opinions, so I would leave it at that……..
March 9th, 2010 at 3:59 pm
….I also wouldn’t compare box scores to RPI’s…….are you serious? No one is talking about bubble teams and strength of schedule here.
March 9th, 2010 at 7:04 pm
@Bushka. Sorry, it was difficult to understand what I wrote. Basically: Bonner is awesomely MIA come playoff time. Count on it.
March 9th, 2010 at 7:24 pm
If we have the big 3 available come playoff time (assuming we still make the playoffs), you can’t compare what Bonner did last year to what you can expect him to do this year. Wayne Winston specifically advised the Mavs to try to shut him down in our match-up last post-season:
http://www.48minutesofhell.com/2010/03/03/matt-bonner-mia/
“Wayne Winston recently told me that prior to last year’s playoffs he advised the Mavericks that stopping Matt Bonner was a high priority against the Spurs, one of the most important things for their coaches to key on during the series.”
It seems like their strategy was to let Tony get his points but to shut down our 3rd options, which they did very effectively. If all 3 of our big 3 are available to play, teams will have a much more difficult time capitalizing on that strategy, and Bonner will not have to do more than produce in the role that he’s well-suited for. I see no reason why he shouldn’t continue to be a very productive role-player in the playoffs this year as long as that’s all we’re asking him to do.
March 9th, 2010 at 8:03 pm
Colin- no but the OP is talking about a completely illogical +/- stat to insinuate Bonner being better than he really is.
March 9th, 2010 at 8:25 pm
Completely illogical? Really? It makes no sense to you to try to evaluate how a team performs with a player on the court vs. when he’s not? Of course this is someone who thinks logic is referencing RPI (a team stat that the NCAA uses) to say that individual player statistics are worthless without actually making an argument.
Also, I didn’t just quote one stat, I quoted 3 different stats, two of which are based on what happens in the box score (PER and WP48). I didn’t stop with statistics either. I pointed out that Pop also seems to think Bonner has value to the team. So, taking all these things together (and not just summing things up with +- like you suggested I did), and then listening to your oh so thoughtful arguments, I’m going have to go with the NBA championship coach and the mathematicians.
March 9th, 2010 at 9:53 pm
Trade TP
Damn Bro, I was only commenting on the fact that Bonner and TD both finished the game with 5 rebs apiece which was mainly to point out the fact that TD under-performed that game. Nothing in my posts did I mention a thing about +/- stats (which I don’t subscribe to) or to start a freakin’ discussion about how you don’t like Bonner. Only box scores dude.
March 11th, 2010 at 8:07 pm
Tim,
Great post as always. Go Matty! Go Spurs!
April 21st, 2010 at 4:38 am
[...] strength on defense lies in his ability to play a help role and rotate properly (which is why his Adjusted +/- is usually so [...]
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