Wednesday, April 7th, 2010...10:50 am
Breaking News: Ginobili, Spurs near deal
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According to Yahoo! Sports, the Spurs are close to signing Manu Ginobili to a 3-year extension worth up to $40 million. We’ll have more information as the story develops.
121 Comments
April 7th, 2010 at 10:55 am
WOW! IF ever a player deserved to get paid it’s MANU.
If ARENAS can get $100 mill+ then MAUN should have a deal by now.
I hope it’s true. HE’s earned it.
April 7th, 2010 at 10:56 am
An average of over 13 million per year? There’s no way he’s worth that by 2012, much less 2013. Congrats to Manu for a deserved big pay day, but what does this do to our cap space going forward?
April 7th, 2010 at 11:03 am
I echo Chris K.’s sentiments. Is anybody able to break down what that would mean for our ability to sign a tall, shot-blocking, defender in the paint for next year?
April 7th, 2010 at 11:04 am
Chris K. It doesn’t do anything that hasn’t already been done. Forget cap space, the championship core is Tim, Tony and Manu moving forward. And even if it proves itself not to be a championship core moving forward this is absolutely the right move.
For the stretches he’s healthy, Manu Ginobili has proven that he is a top-5 player in the entire world. Granted, he cannot sustain that pace for an entire season like Kobe, LeBron or Wade can, but that’s where it becomes Popovich’s job to monitor his minutes and workload over the course of that season so he is that guy headed into the playoffs.
There is the possibility of considering Richard Jefferson’s upcoming expiring contract extra cap space to make one last improvement for the next three years (along with Tiago Splitter hopefully), but this is and always was suppose to be the core. And it’s been doing a pretty damn good job the past month or so.
April 7th, 2010 at 11:04 am
The problem is, the Spurs could not let Manu test the market and see what happens. Yes, it is a lot of money, but the way the guy plays lately…
April 7th, 2010 at 11:07 am
Who cares about cap space? I’d rather watch Manu ball it up with a bunch of cheap talent like Dejuan, George, Garrett, and Ian, than lose him just so we can land some high-priced, overrated marquee player.
Thank you Peter Holt!!! You continue to do right by the fans and the city of SA.
April 7th, 2010 at 11:11 am
Yes Sir!!!!
Ginobiliiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
April 7th, 2010 at 11:12 am
Go Manu Go!!
April 7th, 2010 at 11:16 am
Agreed. This is the right move. Like Jesse touched on, this doesn’t totally take away our cap flexability. We still have Jefferson’s and McDyess’ (partially guaranteed in 2010/11) expirings in which to work with, or we could simply let them roll off the books and pocket the savings in the years to come.
Plus, what good is cap space when you have no chance of luring a top tier free agent? Very few All-star caliber players would consider SA over a bigger market. We might lose out on a role player here or there, but I’d definitely have to say this is a better use of our money.
Also, how Manu’s deal is structured will tell you a lot about the FO’s future plans.
April 7th, 2010 at 11:16 am
The contract can also be structured to hurt next two years less than the post-Duncan year.
Getting him signed sets up the postseason and offseason too. Less distractions and a clearer direction.
April 7th, 2010 at 11:17 am
I am the biggest Manu fan you can imagine and I would have been crushed if we didn’t sign him, but what other team were we bidding against? Who else was going to sign an injury prone 33 year old (basketball genius) to a 3 year deal worth north of 10-11 million per year? Why do the deal now?
Also, consider this: what if the contract uncertainty was fueling some of his amazing play? What if it gave Manu that extra edge in the past month? Didn’t this contract just take that edge away? Manu is a true professional and a hell of a competitor, but I thought he had something extra to prove in recent weeks, despite his talk to the contrary.
Manu has been playing All-World the last month or so, but that’s been without Tony and without a contract for next year. Are we prepared to bet our chances at a title this year on merely getting a (possibly more expensive) deal done a few weeks earlier? Apparently the Front Office thought it needed to get done now, and at that price. I won’t argue too hard about it. I’m glad he’s coming back.
April 7th, 2010 at 11:19 am
A little overpaid I think, but I take it that 40 mil includes the incentives for Manu to not play for his National Team during the off-season?
April 7th, 2010 at 11:21 am
You are dead on about that Jesse B. great explanation of why this was a great move.
April 7th, 2010 at 11:21 am
I think this team has proved that it can compete as is as long as it’s healthy (or even mostly healthy, we haven’t had TP remember). I know that’s a big risk (counting on being healthy), but letting Manu go and trying to get pieces that add to more than him seems like a bigger risk.
Plus, i would be heart broken if he didn’t retire a Spur.
I’m just going to count on getting Splitter and assume everyone is going to rest this summer (after winning the championship of course). This could happen, right?
April 7th, 2010 at 11:34 am
Just to add some color to the discussion. Having Manu on board for the next 3 seasons is an increased incentive for a player like Thiago Splitter to bolt Real Madrid and play for the Spurs.
Without Manu, Spurs are playoff fodder, I don’t think Thiago would resign being a star in Spain to being a role player on a non-contender. Now they have a much better sales pitch for him to leave money on the table and come to the NBA for the jewelry…
April 7th, 2010 at 11:35 am
This deal in not the smartest or most logical one but…
I dont care. I want to watch Ginobili and its possible that in three years he won’t be worth a mid-level salary let alone 13 million but it doesn’t matter. He took less money to re-sign with the Spurs years ago, checked his ego and let All-Star game apperences, All-NBA teams, awards, and possibley the Hall of Fame to come off the bench and do what’s best for the team. If anyone deserves to be overpaid at the end of the career is Manu Ginobili. I’m glad the Spurs stepped up and did what’s right and I’m sure potential free agents will take notice. If this delays the eventual rebuilding by one, two, three, or even four years so be it, because we’ll never see another player like Ginobili again.
April 7th, 2010 at 11:38 am
My heart is with you David G. I think Manu is a clear cut Hall of Famer. There will never be another like him. I’m glad he’ll finish his NBA career with us.
April 7th, 2010 at 11:38 am
Kudos to Peter Holt! This is a big deal guys. We should really appreciate the dedication and vision of the management team.
On a side note, it would interesting to see if all the 3 yrs are guaranteed. $40 Million is a lot of money. Even Manu thinks so. When asked to comment on the 13 million rumored from Real Madrid, “I saw the same report you saw,” Ginobili said. “That’s an enormous amount of money, but I don’t believe it.”
Congratulations to Ginobili. He should have been making that kinda money for a long time now.
April 7th, 2010 at 11:40 am
@David G: I am positive that Manu will make it to the Hall of Fame (perhaps not 1st ballot). The HOF is not an NBA hall of fame, its a basketball hall of fame. Considering all his success in Argentina, Europe and NBA, that guy is lock.
April 7th, 2010 at 11:41 am
I would have prefered 3 yrs/30 mil, but i’m glad he’s coming back, and, if nothing else, the last year of his contract will be a huge expiring deal. I only mention that in case he gets hurt or starts declining rapidly, which i dont see happening. I think he is done with international ball and i think his style is much less reckless than it was a few years ago. I’ve noticed him being on his feet much more than his back this year, which is a change for the past.
April 7th, 2010 at 11:44 am
Even if he is not worth that in 3 years we are indebted to him. He has been underpaid for a long time and his current level of play would suggest an even larger contract (money wise) If Manu was allowed to test free agency the Spurs might have been bidding against a bunch of losers from the LBJ, Wade, Bosh, etc.. sweepstakes plus any rich international clubs.
This is the right move.
April 7th, 2010 at 11:45 am
If Manu ever left San Antonio, I would stop watching the NBA. I love watching him play. He makes the NBA interesting, because you either hate him or love him, and to get that hate/love thing you have to be great, because it means no one wants to play against you or it means people love to see you play and surprise other teams. Manu is the most exciting thing in the NBA right now, more than LeBron, Kobe, or any other player. I love the Spurs, but without Manu they wouldn’t be the Spurs I love.
April 7th, 2010 at 11:51 am
This deal is kinda like “buy-it-now” on ebay…sure the Spurs could have waited to see what the auction brought and then tried to snipe the deal at the end, but the security of having Manu locked up was worth it…the rest is up to his body
April 7th, 2010 at 11:53 am
@ Martin
Tiago would be a role player in that Tony, Tim, and Manu are the main core, but he’d likely be starting at center and getting a lot of regular season minutes from Duncan. We’re not asking him to come over here for 20 mpg off the bench.
A front court starting Duncan and Splitter with Dice, Blair, and possibly Bonner, Mahinmi, and a draft pick could be pretty serious.
April 7th, 2010 at 11:57 am
You guys are also missin that at his current rate of play, Manu would/could be worth multiple 1st round picks…
April 7th, 2010 at 12:02 pm
@BlaseE
I hear you. What I mean is that Splitter would be much more comfortable coming to the NBA to play for a contender Spurs team than for a playoff fodder Spurs team…
Specially if he has to leave money on the table to come to the NBA
April 7th, 2010 at 12:07 pm
I agree with dmc. And for those that say it may be too much, you get what you pay for and we’ve had three titles, great basketball and someone who you want your kids to emulate. Let’s return the loyalty with a few more dollars. Plus, it ends the distraction before the playoffs and gets people renewing their season tickets immediately.
April 7th, 2010 at 12:11 pm
Manu is a first ballot HOFer when his Olympic, World Championship, European, and NBA careers are taken into account.
Euroleague champion, Euroleague Final 4 MVP, Olympic MVP, Olympic Gold and Bronze Medalist, World Championship Silver Medalist, first team in every Olympic/World Championship tournament, 3x NBA Champion, 6th man award, All Star, multiple Italian league MVPs.
The Spurs are a 40-win team without him, and due to salary cap constraints, he is literally irreplaceable. Good move, FO, but I would have extended him for 3yrs/$24M right after his injury when he was more apt to take a discount in favor of security.
April 7th, 2010 at 12:16 pm
i am only hoping it is loaded up front and not when he is 35 yrs old and has jacked up legs.
for those wondering about cap space here is the current outlook for the next 3 yrs and this season.
http://hoopshype.com/salaries/san_antonio.htm
April 7th, 2010 at 12:17 pm
This made my day. I believe the Manu-phoria will make up for the tax hit to Holt in the form of season tickets, etc. And, the team will make a ton more money by going deep into the playoffs with an expensive roster than it would by staying under the cap.
Manu is the heart of the team and the entire Spurs fan base.
April 7th, 2010 at 12:22 pm
@Nadeem I think Manu will eventually make the HOF too, but if he hadn’t been willing to come off the bench to help the Spurs he would be a lock for the Hall. For him to be a top 10 player in the league and come off the bench says all you need to know about Manu and he deserves what ever the Spurs pay him.
April 7th, 2010 at 12:27 pm
So . . . is McDyess gone now? Can the Spurs sign Splitter?
April 7th, 2010 at 12:29 pm
i think this was a great move! there isn’t a single person we can get this summer for wut Manu brings to the team. Manu knows he won’t be out of a job next year so I don’t think that was what was fueling his extra edge. I think the fact that Parker went down and someone needed to step up, he took that as an opportunity to take us to the next level. IMO, I think Manu has been underpaid all these years, so he deserves every penny of that deal. If only RJ can opt out of his contract so we can rewrite it. lol. I love how Timmy took a lower pay just to give the organization more money to bring in better talent for our championship runs. i just hope RJ can go to the next level in the playoffs and not waste all that money we’re paying him. he’s been looking good lately so let’s hope it continues! i can’t wait to see the spurs pound the suns tonight!!! =) GO SPURS GO!!!!!!
April 7th, 2010 at 12:29 pm
After reviewing the previous comments on this thread, I’ll provide a list of declarative statements, or what I consider common myths held by many. Granted, the list is not nearly as funny as Letterman’s top ten, but here it goes:
(1) Don’t really care that much if as a “team” we win a title in the next few years as long as we can watch Manu play.
(2) Think we can win a title by holding onto, at all costs, an aging and declining core (‘big three”).
(3) Completely under-estimate how CRITICAL it is to have a TALL and talented enough front line to effectively defend the rim, and what it entails to acquire that key player that we are missing.
(4) Prefer to come up with all sorts of illogical rationalizations for holding on to the “big three”, to keep the nostalgic fan in us alive. Apparently, hopes for a repeat of the “glory” years die hard.
(5) A belief that if we don’t want RJ come trade deadline next year, somehow, someone else is going to gladly give us something really good in return.
(6) An elevation to god-like status of an aging, albeit, special player.
(7) Taking undue comfort in the remote chance of signing Spitter.
(8) A refusal to go into any depth about what our options are for signing the TALL, shot-blocking, defender in the paint that we simply MUST have to realistically compete for a title over the next few years.
(9) Blowing out of proportion the meaning of our success (and Manu’s) during the last few weeks in terms of what it says about our title aspirations for this year.
(10) Dismissing cap space as if it’s entirely meaningless.
I’m sure that posting this list is like entering a beehive. Be nice!
April 7th, 2010 at 12:30 pm
I am very pleased to hear this “potential news”. I’m a reformed “Tim” is the leader of the team to a “Manu” is the leader of the team guy.
On another note, interesting article over at ESPN regarding the ever overflowing Cuban comments http://sports.espn.go.com/dallas/nba/news/story?id=5063580
If “focus” is the issue, Cuban of all people should know his team’s history with focus hasn’t been stellar. Not a good omen.
April 7th, 2010 at 12:35 pm
YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
April 7th, 2010 at 12:46 pm
This is GREAT NEWS. In a way. They absolutely had to resign Manu because of his talent and perhaps just as importantly, his box office draw. The large Hispanic population in San Antonio think Manu is a demi god. When Manu is healthy, he really is just a notch below Kobe and Dwade.
Those are the plus sides to the equation. I, like Chris K, would like to know what other teams we were bidding against. Granted, it is a much safer bet to sign him now than to wait for him to test the market, however, there aren’t just a ton of teams with cap space this summer. On top of that, many are clown teams like the Knicks, Nets, Wizzards, and Clippers. I’ve written before that I’d never pay Manu $10-$12 per year and now the Spurs are giving him $13 mil after playing great basketball for only 2 months. Perhaps I was wrong.
My final analysis: This is a good move if Manu can play at this level for the next two years. Even though we will never know what he could have gotten on the open market, everyone in the league would pay $13 mil for a Dwade and Kobe-like player. However, if Manu doesn’t take time off in the summer or ankle injuries pop up again, this contract will be an anchor. I guess only time will tell whether this is a great deal, good deal, or anchor.
April 7th, 2010 at 12:49 pm
@Jim Henderson,
You are as enjoyable to read as eating a soggy turd sandwich.
April 7th, 2010 at 12:56 pm
This was a cache 22 for the Spurs.
One one hand, if you low ball Ginobili then he feels insulted and the organization hurts the relationship.
On the other hand, if you don’t make him an offer at all, you insult him and make him feel unwanted.
As usual, the Spurs made the right decision.
Be loyal to the guy who has always been so loyal to you.
April 7th, 2010 at 1:00 pm
If the Spurs didn’t throw an $11 mil+ per year offer at Manu then another team in the offseason surely would have. Far far far worse players have gotten much much much more money. All it takes is one team and with all the cap space teams will have this summer one of them would have come calling.
I think once we find out the details we’ll learn it’s somewhere around 12 or 13 million guaranteed over the next two years with some sort of option or unguarnateed money tied up in incentives. 13 million hurts but yes he would have gotten this offer whether it was us or not.
Of course fans would rather have him at 9 or 10 million a year but that’s not realistic. His agent would have to be really bad to only come away with three years and 10 million per.
April 7th, 2010 at 1:00 pm
And the award for Party Pooper goes to, Jim Henderson.
April 7th, 2010 at 1:10 pm
Jim,
The big 3 is still capable of producing a championship in the next few years. Duncan and Manu each have another couple of productive years, and Tony is in his prime. The key, as you eluded to, is surrounding them with a better team, including a real big man. I think the big 3 will keep the team in championship contention for another couple years.
April 7th, 2010 at 1:13 pm
So Jim would rather have a big tall guy to defend the rim (with no name, but someone good and cheap that he surely can find) than Manu freaking Ginobili who has proven his worth over and over again.
Kobe is older and got $90M for three years, you don’t think Manu deserved at least what is being reported?
April 7th, 2010 at 1:18 pm
If the Spurs can’t salary dump Jefferson, then it’s bye bye Parker!
April 7th, 2010 at 1:25 pm
What is this over fascination with Splitter. Splitter may be able to contribute but the guy is not going to be to the Spurs what Gasol is to the Lakers.
A Manu in the hand is worth more than a Splitter in Europe.
April 7th, 2010 at 1:25 pm
If the FO is willing to pay him top dollar, the right move was to sign him now (a move I question, by the way, without getting some answers to some unanswered questions - like, where’s the $ going to come from to sign the TALL defender that we absolutely MUST have, in my humble opinion, to challenge for a title!). But I repeat, if you’ve made the decision that you’re going to sign Manu for “top dollar”, the right move was to sign him now. You don’t want to risk offending a guy like Ginobli, someone who has meant so much to the franchise over the years.
I’m glad Holt thinks he has the money. I would just love to know what he & the FO think they’re still missing on this team, if anything, to truly compete for a title. And if they determine that they are missing something, can they still afford to go out and get the necessary part after the 40 mil. doled out to Manu? In my view, considering that the big three are no longer in their prime, we can’t get a title anymore with just tinkering around the edges. I hope the Spur FO proves me wrong. They certainly have an amazing track record for a small market franchise. Perhaps they’ve got something up their sleeve. Let’s hope so, because despite the fan in me that still has some hope for a miracle, I don’t honestly see this squad challenging for a title in the next 2-3 years, and perhaps much longer, as currently constructed.
VP of Common Sense
April 7th, 2010 at 12:49 pm
You my friend, would be enjoyable to read if only I was an amoeba in a coma.
April 7th, 2010 at 1:30 pm
That was a scorcher…
April 7th, 2010 at 1:30 pm
@ Jim
(3) Completely under-estimate how CRITICAL it is to have a TALL and talented enough front line to effectively defend the rim, and what it entails to acquire that key player that we are missing.
The problem is you want to trade Manu Ginobili, who is a top-five player in the entire league right now, AND Parker (a top five point guard when healthy) in a package for Dalembert, someone who is not even a top-10 center (Tim Duncan, Dwight Howard, Andrew Bogut, Brook Lopez, Nene, Bynum, Both Gasols, Blake Griffin, Joakim Noah, Kevin Garnett or Kendrick Perkins, and Anderson Verajao are all better off the top of my head) and Iggy (Manu Ginobili, Wade, Joe Johnson, Kobe Bryant, Brandon Roy are significantly better-though I am a fan of Iggy).
(5) A belief that if we don’t want RJ come trade deadline next year, somehow, someone else is going to gladly give us something really good in return.
The economy is the same, and expiring contracts are just as valuable. How do you think any of the big deals were done last summer?
April 7th, 2010 at 1:37 pm
Its almost official. 3 year 38.9 million. Its the max allowed extension under the current CBA.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=5064686
April 7th, 2010 at 1:43 pm
Jim Henderson
April 7th, 2010 at 12:29 pm
“(2) Think we can win a title by holding onto, at all costs, an aging and declining core (‘big three”).
(4) Prefer to come up with all sorts of illogical rationalizations for holding on to the “big three”, to keep the nostalgic fan in us alive. Apparently, hopes for a repeat of the “glory” years die hard”
Jim, it will be very interesting to see what happens over the next month or two. If the Spurs make it to the conference finals, I would guess that the big three will be back next year. However, if this team is not able to get back to that level, I wouldn’t be surprised if we traded a certain member of the team.
Let’s be realistic. We aren’t going to trade Duncan and it’s now obvious we aren’t letting go of Manu. Jefferson has value as an expiring contract, but who is going to soak up 35 minutes/game at the SF spot. If RJ is anything, he is durable. No one nominate Malik Hairston for that role, please. Hairston hasn’t even played 30 minutes in 1 game so he’s not the immediate answer for next year.
With that said, I have 3 points.
1) I absolutely agree that we are too short on the front line and Duncan will wear down with being the lone 7 footer on the team.
2) Unless Splitter comes over, we may have to trade for a good center to help Duncan.
3) The Spurs, with Manu, Hill, and Jefferson playing well, went 11-5 during one of the toughest stretches of the season. All this was accomplished without Tony Parker, who is an expiring contract and former All Star (meaning he has immense trade value).
I’ll let you come to your own conclusions.
April 7th, 2010 at 1:44 pm
Not sure what a cache 22 is, but I do think the Spurs were in a bit of a catch 22…or rather a catch 20 as the jersery number may be.
Oh, and I think that we all know that the Spurs big three are getting older, but there’s no way that we get anything close to resembling the value that Duncan and Manu have to the Spurs in return and I really don’t see how trading Tony makes the Spurs any better considering what would likely come back.
April 7th, 2010 at 1:49 pm
Marcos
April 7th, 2010 at 1:13 pm
Names? If you’ve read any of my previous posts over the past several weeks, you’d notice that I’ve already provided a list of numerous possibilities for acquiring a “big” man (Camby, Haywood, etc.). Unlike the great majority of others on this blog, which prefer to sink into the fantasy that what we have now is enough to truly challenge for the title.
I also proposed a block-buster type of trade that would bring Sam Dalembert to the front line in SA. Many want to diss that choice because you have no clue as to the potential value he would bring to this “team” in terms of getting another title. Apparently you’d prefer to chase icon’s, and past glory, while risking mediocrity (a low seed, first round playoff team, and perhaps worse, over the next several years).
“Kobe is older and got $90M for three years, you don’t think Manu deserved at least what is being reported?”
Kobe is a bit younger, and is more durable than Manu, but he is also in decline, and is in my view overpaid at this juncture in his career. Reports are for 27-30 million per year. No way. The Lakers could challenge with a guy like Joe Johnson, and he’s considerably younger, and cheaper. In short, overpaying for Kobe does not justify overpaying for Manu.
April 7th, 2010 at 1:50 pm
I don’t think Jim is saying that he’s upset that Ginobili re-signed (unless he’s insane), but just that if Ginobili had signed for less the Spurs would have more options in free agency.
I’m not sure that’s actually true, because even without Ginobili the Spurs would be pretty close to the threshold, I imagine, and Holt is ultimately the one that determines what the spending options are. If he wants to absorb the luxury tax ramifications, we can get Splitter and re-sign some of our role players. If he doesn’t want to, we can’t.
I think this signing is a testament to what Holt is willing to do, though. I wouldn’t be surprised to see Splitter with us next year, and if we can find some decent players in the draft… we’ll be championship contenders until this contract runs out.
April 7th, 2010 at 1:58 pm
@Jim
Okay, replacing Manu Ginobili with Samuel Dalembert and Andre Igoudala (imo) would not make the Spurs better. It would make it less expensive to sign Splitter, but if Holt is willing to spend the money, I’d rather have Manu and Splitter than Dalembert/Iggy/Splitter.
April 7th, 2010 at 2:04 pm
Jesse Blanchard
April 7th, 2010 at 1:30 pm
As you know, I disagree with your assessment of the Philly trade. I won’t waste time belaboring that issue at this point.
“The economy is the same, and expiring contracts are just as valuable. How do you think any of the big deals were done last summer?”
By teams just wanting to engage in dumping salary for the sake of clearing cap space. That strategy is for “loser” type franchises (e.g., Wizards), or playoff contenders looking to get rid of players that just don’t fit into there long-term plans for what generally turns out to be a short-term fix. You don’t re-energize a team that USED to be a “no question about it” perennial contender over the past decade, a team now anchored by aging stars, with typically older players, and/or band-aid solutions.
April 7th, 2010 at 2:04 pm
I remember some people wondered why the Spurs opted to give the Admiral a contract extention despite the fact that he was on his ‘last legs’. But you know what? Everybody quit saying things like “he’s stealing money” or “he should have retired so that the Spurs could sign someone younger” when Big Dave lifted the O’brien in 2003. Don’t forget that it was Big Dave that came back early from Hawaii to talk Timmy in to staying in SA back in the early 2000’s. I wouldn’t be surprised to find out that Timmy had a hand in getting Manu’s contract done. While he’s not the guy who holds the purse strings his opinion matters to the front office.
April 7th, 2010 at 2:07 pm
i think sometimes you may need to overpay a little. good thing he is signed though. maybe he’ll keep playing with that fire and determination and lead the Spurs to a 5th championship ring? or maybe he’ll get hurt…. ouch, but who knows.
what we do know is that the owner and front office want to win. that is great news. now for equally important- get Tiago Splitter signed. is his Spanish team’s season still playing? if their season is over i’d send a flight for him so that he could watch Spurs playoff atmosphere.
an eight man rotation of Parker, Hill, Manu, RJ, Duncan, Blair, McDyess, of Splitter would be amazing. we do need another G/F who can shoot, but not as pressing as getting Manu signed (check, although not official) and Splitter over here (pending).
April 7th, 2010 at 2:07 pm
Jim Henderson,
It’s not like we’re paying $90 mil over the next 3 years. Manu has room to decline as a player to still be worth the money at $13 mil a year.
Look, I agree that we’re not likely to win a championship, (largely due to lack of home court advantage), but you seem to not understand how good Manu really is. Jesse is correct, when healthy he is one of the top 5 players in the league. There is no gurantee that any number of pics, trades, or whatever will ever replace his production when healthy. In fact, I’d say it’s unlikely. As for the frontline, it’s better than people say. We’re 9th in defensive efficiency, even with our mediocre start. TD is still good, we’ve just been spoiled for the decade (or two). It’s not like we need two 7 footers out there all the time. The Magic have a great defense starting Rashard Lewis at the 4. Cleveland is good as well and who do they have? Varejao is good, big Z and Shaq, not so much anymore. The Spurs as is can compete, and Manu is a big part of that.
Also, 1) isn’t a myth ( or commonly held, I want Manu to stay no matter what, however, I do care about championships) it’s an opinion you are free to disagree with.
April 7th, 2010 at 2:07 pm
As a small market team in a seller’s year (lots of teams with cap space and/or a win-now attitude) we’d be overpaying anyway. Might as well overpay for somebody we WANT.
Kobe getting 30M per doesn’t justify paying manu 13M, but it does put it in some context. Does Kobe provide twice as much to the Lakers that Manu does for the Spurs? Do they rely on him twice as much? Keep in mind the Lakers were not really competing with any other teams as it was never plausible that he would take a deal elsewhere.
Kobe’s not the only or the best example of how talent is expensive. The raptors locked up 50mil in Hedo Turkoglu and that hasn’t panned out. Vince Carter is getting max money and has been worse than Manu in every way you can measure it this year.
Heck didn’t Marcin Gortat get a 40mil deal this summer? You want to tell me he’s more of an impact over the next three years than Manu is? That’s the kind of player you’d be able to attract with the money you saved by letting Manu walk. A guy like Camby will demand either way more money or more years on his contract.
Haywood, Gortat, Dalembert - these are impact guys but I can’t see how ‘trading’ Manu for one of them is anything but one step forward, two steps back, and a leap of faith that they’ll work in the system that flourished with Ginobili.
April 7th, 2010 at 2:17 pm
Hobson13
April 7th, 2010 at 1:43 pm
Thanks for your rational and thoughtful post. That said, I’m sure you realize that you didn’t have an answer for the missing TALL front line guy. That is the most critical point I made, yet nobody wants to talk about it, other than offering pie in the sky dreams of signing Splitter. And don’t get me wrong, I’m not criticizing you here, but this omission is going to bite us in the pants unless we soon confront it as a fan base, and as a franchise.
As I said, I hope the FO has something up there sleeve. And to be honest, I wouldn’t put it past them. So I’m not hopeless here, just baffled, concerned, and experiencing a bit of a “bitter-sweet” moment, because I very much appreciate what Manu has done for our team over the years.
April 7th, 2010 at 2:17 pm
Read this on ESPN in class and almost shouted out loud and jumped out of my seat in excitement.
April 7th, 2010 at 2:19 pm
Jim -
Even if we signed Manu to a deal starting @ $8M per, we’d be over the cap next year and only able to offer essentially the MLE to any potential FA’s. Just because this deal starts at 12-13M doesn’t change anything in regards for next season (barring moves this summer of course).
This deal wasn’t just about basketball either. Spurredon touched on it - this was just as much as about business as anything. I know 3 business owners in SA that have been waiting to see what happens w/ Manu before they renew for next year. They’re thinking was this: if he doesn’t resign, why would I want to pony up for an entire season of floor seats, when I could just buy individual tickets to the games I want to see? This deal, done now, should bring in a wave of season ticket renewals. That’s $ in the organization’s pocket now, instead of waiting until the summer. PV > FV for you finance geeks.
April 7th, 2010 at 2:21 pm
Mike3
April 7th, 2010 at 1:50 pm
Solid points, Mike. Nice post!
April 7th, 2010 at 2:23 pm
Mike3
April 7th, 2010 at 1:58 pm
Sorry, Mike, but in my view you’re simply far undervaluing Dalembert AND Iggy.
April 7th, 2010 at 2:25 pm
After reviewing the previous comments on this thread, I’ll provide a list of declarative statements, or what I consider common myths held by many. Granted, the list is not nearly as funny as Letterman’s top ten, but here it goes:
(1) Don’t really care that much if as a “team” we win a title in the next few years as long as we can watch Manu play.
-Do Spurs fan want another to see another Title come to town? Yes. Do the Spurs fans want to watch Ginobili play for 82 games on their favorite team? Yes, but they’re not Mutually Exclusive
(2) Think we can win a title by holding onto, at all costs, an aging and declining core (‘big three”).
-You’re twisting around the truth a little. “Holding onto at all costs” but the only real alternative would be to let Manu walk away for nothing at the end of the season. So yes they’re keeping Manu at a cost, but the alternative of getting nothing for him seems like a poor option.
(3) Completely under-estimate how CRITICAL it is to have a TALL and talented enough front line to effectively defend the rim, and what it entails to acquire that key player that we are missing.
-How many other teams desperately want a “tall and talented” front court player? All of them except the Lakers maybe? How would you propose the Spurs get one of those rare players? They almost never hit free agency (best Free Agent class in history has three good bigs Boozer, Bosh, Amare and none of them qualify at “defending the rim”), are hardly ever traded, and are usually picked at the very top of the draft, usually much higher than they should based on their amateur production (see Thabeet, Hasheem)
(4) Prefer to come up with all sorts of illogical rationalizations for holding on to the “big three”, to keep the nostalgic fan in us alive. Apparently, hopes for a repeat of the “glory” years die hard.
-I think we’ve all come to the realization that the big three being the favorites to win the title every year is gone. But what would you propose the Spurs do? Could they get any where close to equal value in a trade for Duncan, Parker, or Ginobili? I know the answer but do you?
(5) A belief that if we don’t want RJ come trade deadline next year, somehow, someone else is going to gladly give us something really good in return.
-The Rockets got two first round picks, both of which are potential lottery picks, and 2009 lottery pick Jordan Hill for a large expiring contract. Heading into a possible lockout the Spurs could get something of value for Jefferson. Would it equal the treasure chest the Rockets got? Probably not, but it could be something positive.
(6) An elevation to god-like status of an aging, albeit, special player.
-God like? He’s a top 10 player when healthy. And arguably the most exciting player to watch in the NBA. Nobody here doesn’t think he’s getting long in the tooth. (double negative!)
(7) Taking undue comfort in the remote chance of signing Spitter.
-Maybe I’m wrong but IMO most of the Spurs fans on this site are nervously hopeful that Tiago comes over, but nobody is taking his arrival like its certainty.
(8) A refusal to go into any depth about what our options are for signing the TALL, shot-blocking, defender in the paint that we simply MUST have to realistically compete for a title over the next few years.
How would the Spurs sign someone like that? Even if the Spurs let Manu go they don’t have cap space. And what free agent wants to play in San Antonio? The only FA’s that have shown real willingness to sing in SA are the aging vets who want to win. If the Spurs let Manu walk they don’t make the playoffs next year and you lose you’re only selling point. Again how many “tall, shot-blocking” free agents every hit the open market? Shaq did. Ben Wallace did but that didn’t work out well. It hardly ever happens and those guys have their choice of all 32 teams in the NBA. The Spurs can’t compete against markets like New York, LA, Miami, Houston, Brooklyn, Phoenix, etc…
(9) Blowing out of proportion the meaning of our success (and Manu’s) during the last few weeks in terms of what it says about our title aspirations for this year.
-You’re wrong here. The recent level of success is what the Spurs are capable of when they’re relatively healthy. Will they be healthy for the next two months. If I had to bet my life…no, but if they stay healthy they’re right there with the Magic and Cavs, and Lakers if Bynum isn’t healthy.
(10) Dismissing cap space as if it’s entirely meaningless.
-It isn’t meaningless, but cap space is really overrated. Having tons of cap space never works out. I can’t think of any cap space clearing teams where it worked out well. The most glaring example (and I believe the only team) to sign two Max FA’s in one offseason was the Orlando Magic with Grant Hill and Tracy McGrady.
April 7th, 2010 at 2:28 pm
Done deal.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=5064686&campaign=rss&source=ESPNHeadlines&utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter
April 7th, 2010 at 2:31 pm
Doesn’t this all but preclude the Spurs signing Splitter? With what are they going to sign him? I think it shows the Spurs are going to find a big man in the draft, perhaps Cole Aldrich or Dexter Pittman.
April 7th, 2010 at 2:32 pm
RealGM’s ‘grading’ of the sides:
http://www.realgm.com/src_wiretap_archives/65823/20100407/grading_the_deal_ginobili_to_sign_$40m_extension/
“he Spurs undoubtedly will be overpaying a little bit in the third year of his extension when he’s 35, but I think they will rest a little easier knowing they had him at below market value for the majority of his career. If Ginobili would have become a free agent, a desperate team with cap space could have offered him a balloon payment for 2010-11, leaving the Spurs completely vulnerable since they already are in cap hell. The 10-11 season will be as tax-laden as this season is with the San Antonio payroll just under $80M, but at least they will have Richard Jefferson coming off the books in the 2011 summer when Tony Parker becomes a free agent.
“
April 7th, 2010 at 2:41 pm
@Jason,
The MLE. You always have the MLE to offer, even if you are over the cap. The LLE is the bi-annual one.
Splitter will always be a question on how deep they want to pay into luxury tax. I think the post season will determine what they are willing to pay next season.
They also will likely backload Manu’s contract so it’s not as bad for his first year.
April 7th, 2010 at 2:45 pm
Jim Henderson
April 7th, 2010 at 2:17 pm
“That said, I’m sure you realize that you didn’t have an answer for the missing TALL front line guy”
Jim, I was trying to imply that we need to trade Parker for a decent big. This can come in several forms. We can trade Parker straight up for a guy like Al Jefferson or your man Samuel Dalembert (you and I have disagreed about this, but both would be intriguing as a Spur.) Or it is possible that we can wait and trade Parker for a backup PG and maybe a top 5 draft pick so we could get the likes of a Demarcus Cousins. I don’t particularly have a difinitive answer as to exactly who we should get. We are only in April and many chips will fall between now and the summer so I would rather just “keep my powder dry” until then.
Also, I’m just not sure about Tiago Splitter. Some like you say he’s not coming over. Then I’ve heard interviews from RC Buford who act optimistic about the situation. The fact remains that there’s a chance Splitter might come over. Now whether that chance is 80% or 8% I simply don’t know at this point, but to me, a Parker trade makes a world of sense.
April 7th, 2010 at 2:49 pm
@Hobson13 Demarcus Cousins! Samuel Dalembert! Deer God! You must not watch basketball.
April 7th, 2010 at 3:01 pm
David G
April 7th, 2010 at 2:49 pm
“@Hobson13 Demarcus Cousins! Samuel Dalembert! Deer God! You must not watch basketball.”
As a matter of fact I both watch and play basketball on an almost daily basis. Did you wish to refute my arguments or did you simply have a tough day at work. We were discussing our need for another big alongside Duncan. Please feel free to weigh in with well reasoned suggestions/ counter arguments.
April 7th, 2010 at 3:02 pm
This HAD to be done. If the Spurs did not take care of Manu, the Spurs’ era would truly be over and there would be no more championships for Timmy for sure. Manu would have gotten this kind of offer, if not more, on the open market. The Spurs would not have been able to do much even if they hadn’t resigned Ginobili given the nonexistent cap space we had. Even without resigning him, we still would have only been able to offer another FA, or Tiago Splitter, the MLE. Might as well take advantage of Manu’s Bird rights and keep him in SA where he belongs. Besides, Jefferson’s expiring contract possibly spells major cap relief for the Spurs next season, unless teams are scared away by the impending lockout possibilities for 2011-12.
April 7th, 2010 at 3:03 pm
@ IT Guy
!!vaya vaya espuelas!!
April 7th, 2010 at 3:05 pm
Mike3
April 7th, 2010 at 1:58 pm
Sorry, Mike, but in my view you’re simply far undervaluing Dalembert AND Iggy.
Tim
April 7th, 2010 at 2:04 pm
Fair enough, Tim, but we needed another 7 footer then, and we need another 7 footer now. And Duncan very well could of had some influence on the Manu signing, but if he did, as arguably the best PF of all-time, he may be over-estimating the gas he has left in his tank. While understandable, it could be a mistake in terms of winning another title before he’s done. Unless, as I’ve said, the FO has a 7 footer under their sleeve. We’ll see.
bduran
April 7th, 2010 at 2:07 pm
Number one, I in no way “undervalue” Manu. On the contrary, many on here “overvalue” him to the point of idol worship.
“Also, 1) isn’t a myth ( or commonly held, I want Manu to stay no matter what, however, I do care about championships) it’s an opinion you are free to disagree with.”
I did not say the list was comprised of ALL myths. I said the list will consist of “declarative statements” and/or commonly held “myths”. And yes, “declarative statements” can be opinions that one is “free to disagree with”.
Greyberger
April 7th, 2010 at 2:07 pm
“Kobe getting 30M per doesn’t justify paying manu 13M, but it does put it in some context.”
That is true, and a fair point.
“Heck didn’t Marcin Gortat get a 40mil deal this summer? You want to tell me he’s more of an impact over the next three years than Manu is? That’s the kind of player you’d be able to attract with the money you saved by letting Manu walk. A guy like Camby will demand either way more money or more years on his contract.”
That is unlikely, at age 37.
Tyler
April 7th, 2010 at 2:19 pm
Quite frankly, I understand fully the “Manu” ticket sale angle, and all the other intangibles Manu brings to the table. That said, what makes a franchise the most money is suiting up the best value every night for a team that is “truly a perennial contender”. In my view, that will not happen again without making the best trade, or forking up the appropriate dollars for the “big” that we need to go alongside an aging Tim Duncan. Also, if the “cap” is not an issue in signing Manu, let’s hope mister deep-pockets-Holt can also do what’s necessary to get us that TALL guy that could extend the productive years left in Duncan’s career.
I’ll leave you all with a brief closing comment:
In my estimation, a common theme on here is “short-term” thinking that offers a bit more “security” that we’ll remain modestly competitive for a few more years, while unwittingly potentially foreclosing on getting to the pinnacle again, perhaps more than once, in the years ahead. Take a moment to think about that. Thanks for the respectful comments, outside of “VP of Common Sense”.
April 7th, 2010 at 3:09 pm
Hobson13
April 7th, 2010 at 2:45 pm
Fair points. Nice job.
April 7th, 2010 at 3:16 pm
@Hobson13
You’re talking about the same Cousins who played at Kentucky right?
And you’re talking about the same Dalembert that the 76ers have desperately tried to give away for years? Same guy right?
April 7th, 2010 at 3:28 pm
@JIm Henderson
You say you want a “block-buster trade” that would bring Iggy and Dalembert.
First of all they are decent players, but I wouldn’t call them superstars. And you need superstars to win championships. MANU and TD and TP are superstars. You have to ride them until the wheels fall off.
As far as needing “interior defense” TD and MCDEEZY have been doing great lately. The entire team is looking great on D. During this “MANU Stretch” they are holding teams to under or around 90 points.
ALso, I forget who wrote it but, I agree. I don’t think you truly understand how good MANU is.
And yes, if KOBE at a year younger than MANU can get 8o mill then MANU deserves 40 mill.
Manu has helped win 3 rings
Kobe has helped win 4 rings
I agree both players will decline once these contracts are up. Both have basically been paid for what they have done.
April 7th, 2010 at 3:32 pm
@ Jim Henderson,
Thank God you don’t own or run the Spurs.
You would let Manu walk, somehow trade for Iggy & Dalembert (which would mean moving Parker & Jefferson), and alienate the entire Spurs fanbase.
What makes you think your plan guarentees long term success?
Are Iggy & Dalembert superstars? I think not.
The NBA is not a fantasy league. Great teams win championships. Great teams with great “team players” which is exactly what are Big 3 are.
April 7th, 2010 at 3:34 pm
* the Big 3 are.
April 7th, 2010 at 3:39 pm
for all those that are arguing that Manu’s signing has doomed our chances to add a BIG man, remember that the 200-10 salary cap was $57.7 million. not sure what it will be next year, but let’s just assume it stays the same. our salary on the books for next year would be $55.75 million for only 8 players (assuming Spurs pick up option on Alonzo Gee and Malik Hairston, plus Parker, Duncan, Hill, Blair, McDyess, and RJ). So even if you would get 4 minimum players there would be no way to avoid going over the tax. We would have NO salary cap to throw at a BIG MAN. The only option would have been our mid-level exception (don’t know what values are, but I believe $5 million). So our roster would be Parker, Hill, Gee, Hairston, Duncan, Blair, McDyess, RJ, $5 million BIG MAN signee, and minimum value players. That is not a competitive roster.
Manu’s signing does mean that the Spurs will be over the cap, but at least they still have the flexibility to sign a big man to add to a competitive team. It did not matter whether Manu signed for $1 million or $13 million a year- his salary would have not impacted Spurs availability in free agency outside mid-level exception.
Sources below:
“The National Basketball Association today announced that the Salary Cap for the 2009-10 season will be $57.7 million. The tax level for the 2009-10 season has been set at $69.92 million. Any team whose team salary exceeds that figure will pay a $1 tax for each $1 by which it exceeds $69.92 million.”
(http://www.nba.com/2009/news/07/07/salarycap.ap/index.html)
http://hoopshype.com/salaries/san_antonio.htm
April 7th, 2010 at 3:43 pm
shhh, don’t jinx it
April 7th, 2010 at 3:48 pm
It’s done! (I think)
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=5064686
“The San Antonio Spurs and guard Manu Ginobili have agreed to a three-year extension worth $38.9 million, a league source confirmed Wednesday.”
April 7th, 2010 at 3:50 pm
pffft
old news it seems
April 7th, 2010 at 3:50 pm
They can’t sign on the dotted line fast enough, as far as i’m concerned. This is a great deal for the spurs and the fans. Manu is easily worth more over 3 years. Had the spurs not pre-empted the competition, most of the commenters on here would have been shocked at the amount of money thrown at Manu. It would have been much more expensive for Peter Holt to sign Manu over the summer. What, you don’t think Mr. Holt read that New York Post article on Manu? Or the countless other articles in the cloud putting Manu in the top 5 free agents.
To me, Manu’s age matters not. As it is in life, in the NBA certain players age gracefully. Continuing to be highly effective in their later years. Manu isn’t the greatest athlete in the NBA, he isn’t even the best athlete on the spurs. But he does posess the highest basketball IQ in the game today. Do you really think Manu is going to have a hard time running the pick and roll at the age of 35? In the NBA your jumper gets better as you get older.
We have the luxury of watching the best 2 guard in spurs history (yeah i said it, who don’t like it?;) for 3 more years. That’s pretty badass if you ask me papa!
April 7th, 2010 at 3:54 pm
why is my previous comment “awaiting confirmation?”
it’s good stuff in response to J. Henderson’s comments
April 7th, 2010 at 3:54 pm
for all those that are arguing that Manu’s signing has doomed our chances to add a BIG man, remember that the 200-10 salary cap was $57.7 million. not sure what it will be next year, but let’s just assume it stays the same. our salary on the books for next year would be $55.75 million for only 8 players (assuming Spurs pick up option on Alonzo Gee and Malik Hairston, plus Parker, Duncan, Hill, Blair, McDyess, and RJ). So even if you would get 4 minimum players there would be no way to avoid going over the tax. We would have NO salary cap to throw at a BIG MAN. The only option would have been our mid-level exception (don’t know what values are, but I believe $5 million). So our roster would be Parker, Hill, Gee, Hairston, Duncan, Blair, McDyess, RJ, $5 million BIG MAN signee, and minimum value players. That is not a competitive roster.
Manu’s signing does mean that the Spurs will be over the cap, but at least they still have the flexibility to sign a big man to add to a competitive team. It did not matter whether Manu signed for $1 million or $13 million a year- his salary would have not impacted Spurs availability in free agency outside mid-level exception.
April 7th, 2010 at 3:55 pm
part II
Sources below:
“The National Basketball Association today announced that the Salary Cap for the 2009-10 season will be $57.7 million. The tax level for the 2009-10 season has been set at $69.92 million. Any team whose team salary exceeds that figure will pay a $1 tax for each $1 by which it exceeds $69.92 million.”
(http://www.nba.com/2009/news/07/07/salarycap.ap/index.html)
http://hoopshype.com/salaries/san_antonio.htm
April 7th, 2010 at 3:59 pm
Im more than happy for the guy !!!
That’s one 30+ old guy that is worth this kind of money… he’s no Hedo Turkoglu!
April 7th, 2010 at 4:27 pm
I hope the extension is incentive laden and loaded up front. I’d say incentives for games or minutes played would be fair for both the team and Manu. Perhaps it can be similar to Blair’s, where the first 2 years are guaranteed and the 3rd is fully unguaranteed.
I understand how good Manu can be WHEN HEALTHY, but he hasn’t been fully healthy for any extended period in 2 years. I’ll reserve complete judgement on this contract rumor until the terms are released. Until then, I’ll remain 60% nervous, 40% optimistic.
April 7th, 2010 at 4:30 pm
I think the comparisons to Kobe’s deal miss the point. The real comparison should be to Tony Parker.
Next year TP is slated to make around $13.5Mil, Manu’s new deal pretty much makes the two equal there, and I think that every single Spurs fan would argue that the value of #9 and #20 to the Spurs is about equal.
The real travesty is RJ’s $15mil.
April 7th, 2010 at 4:44 pm
As for the tall guy the Spurs “need”, (In quotes because of the debate centered on that topic) This year the Spurs figure to draft higher than they have in a great many years.
I know that the range of 18-25 isn’t typically home to “franchise changing” players, however Rajon Rondo went 21st, Kevin Martin 26th, Kendrick Perkins 27th, Tayshaun Prince 23rd, Brendan Haywood 20th, and Gerald Wallace 25th. Anyone one of those players would be a welcome addition to this roster, and I have faith the something similar can happen this season also.
p.s. I won’t bother to mention Manu was drafted 57th, Blair 37th, George Hill 26th, and 28th.
April 7th, 2010 at 4:45 pm
Tony parker is the missing name in that post script
April 7th, 2010 at 4:56 pm
“Manu’s signing does mean that the Spurs will be over the cap, but at least they still have the flexibility to sign a big man to add to a competitive team. It did not matter whether Manu signed for $1 million or $13 million a year- his salary would have not impacted Spurs availability in free agency outside mid-level exception.”
Thank you…I think a lot of people out there don’t understand how the salary cap works. This guy Jim wants Manu to walk and then trade for Iggy and Dalembert. Only way that would work is to give up Parker and Jefferson. Now Mr Jim obviously thinks Dalembert and Iggy are quite good so I don’t know how he would explain that the 76ers are one of the worst teams in the league.
Jims next years Spurs
Dalembert
Duncan
Harriston
Iggy
Hill
That team doesn’t crack 40 wins in the West and they struggle to score 80 points per night.
April 7th, 2010 at 5:07 pm
Technically MANU has been healthy all this season, minus a handful of games. His problem was mainly mental as he has stated.
Plus, injuries are part of the game. No one can guarantee Manu WILL get seriously hurt again. And no one can guarantee that he WILL NOT get seriously hurt again.
@DAVID G. Nicely put. I especially like how you point out the fact that IGGY and DBERT together are on one of the worst teams in the league.
April 7th, 2010 at 5:13 pm
David G
April 7th, 2010 at 2:25 pm
Thanks for the effort in responding to my post. I quote you below, and then provide my response.
“-Do Spurs fan want another to see another Title come to town? Yes. Do the Spurs fans want to watch Ginobili play for 82 games on their favorite team? Yes, but they’re not Mutually Exclusive.”
Of course they’re not “mutually exclusive”, but they are not necessarily “mutually inclusive” either, despite what many on this blog imply. I think it’s less likely that we get a title as currently constructed, than if we we were to parlay Manu’s “current” value for the right pieces that are younger and could help preserve the franchise’s value over a longer period of time.
“-You’re twisting around the truth a little. “Holding onto at all costs” but the only real alternative would be to let Manu walk away for nothing at the end of the season. So yes they’re keeping Manu at a cost, but the alternative of getting nothing for him seems like a poor option.”
I’m not twisting the truth. The Spurs just agreed to hold onto a 33 year old excellent player with physical durability issues by paying him pretty close to “top dollar” in relation to his free market value. And I was never proposing getting nothing for him. I’ve always wanted to see if we could get a sign & trade deal done for him. That’s far from nothing.
“-How many other teams desperately want a “tall and talented” front court player? All of them except the Lakers maybe? How would you propose the Spurs get one of those rare players? They almost never hit free agency (best Free Agent class in history has three good bigs Boozer, Bosh, Amare and none of them qualify at “defending the rim”), are hardly ever traded, and are usually picked at the very top of the draft, usually much higher than they should based on their amateur production (see Thabeet, Hasheem)”
I’ve made a number of suggestions for “bigs” that we should seriously consider going after, either by trade or through free agency. We don’t really need “superstar” scoring type “bigs” (e.g. Bosh). Our system is set-up to win with defense. And actually, most teams actually don’t need a TALL center nearly as desperately as we do. Thus guys like Camby (at his age), Haywood, Dampier, etc. are all realistic options to pursue if we allot a decent amount of money to make a serious run at them. I’m not sure how we still have that flexibility with the size of the Manu contract. Ask Peter Holt, and the NBA offices.
“-I think we’ve all come to the realization that the big three being the favorites to win the title every year is gone. But what would you propose the Spurs do? Could they get any where close to equal value in a trade for Duncan, Parker, or Ginobili? I know the answer but do you?”
For one thing, you don’t trade Duncan. At his age he’s not as valuable of a trade piece with his salary. Plus, you just don’t trade Duncan. I’ve already made a trade proposal involving Parker & Ginobli, with an effort to look at our future, not just our present. I’m not going to go through it all right now. Perhaps you can find it scattered throughout my posts on here over the past several weeks. I wouldn’t bother though if I were you, I can tell you wouldn’t understand the benefits of the trade.
“-The Rockets got two first round picks, both of which are potential lottery picks, and 2009 lottery pick Jordan Hill for a large expiring contract. Heading into a possible lockout the Spurs could get something of value for Jefferson. Would it equal the treasure chest the Rockets got? Probably not, but it could be something positive.”
The Rockets gave up a soon to be dominant power forward in the NBA, Carl Landry. The Kings clearly have him in their long-term plans, and they’re smart to do so.
“-Maybe I’m wrong but IMO most of the Spurs fans on this site are nervously hopeful that Tiago comes over, but nobody is taking his arrival like its certainty. ”
Maybe so, but if that’s the case, there certainly seems to be an ocean full of complacency on here about looking at ALL the other options, should we not be able to sign Splitter.
“Again how many “tall, shot-blocking” free agents every hit the open market? Shaq did. Ben Wallace did but that didn’t work out well. It hardly ever happens and those guys have their choice of all 32 teams in the NBA. The Spurs can’t compete against markets like New York, LA, Miami, Houston, Brooklyn, Phoenix, etc…”
I already mentioned a few guys that could be enough to help Duncan defend in the paint, and there are several others that are probably worthy of consideration.
“If I had to bet my life…no, but if they stay healthy they’re right there with the Magic and Cavs, and Lakers if Bynum isn’t healthy.”
Oh yeah, what would you say are the odds of us beating these teams you mentioned in a 7-game series? It sounds like you think that it’s like, 3/2, or something? Let’s be serious, all things being equal health-wise, we’re NO better than a 5/1 shot against any of those teams.
“-It isn’t meaningless, but cap space is really overrated. Having tons of cap space never works out. I can’t think of any cap space clearing teams where it worked out well. The most glaring example (and I believe the only team) to sign two Max FA’s in one offseason was the Orlando Magic with Grant Hill and Tracy McGrady.”
You entirely missed my point. Below is my explanation of this issue in response to Jesse Blanchard.
This is what Jesse asked:
““The economy is the same, and expiring contracts are just as valuable. How do you think any of the big deals were done last summer?”
And this was the pertinent part of my response:
“By teams just wanting to engage in dumping salary for the sake of clearing cap space. That strategy is for “loser” type franchises (e.g., Wizards), or playoff contenders looking to get rid of players that just don’t fit into there long-term plans for what often turns out to be a short-term fix.”
April 7th, 2010 at 5:21 pm
YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA-HOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Manu we Love You!!!!!!!!!!
April 7th, 2010 at 5:24 pm
David G
April 7th, 2010 at 3:16 pm
“You’re talking about the same Cousins who played at Kentucky right?
And you’re talking about the same Dalembert that the 76ers have desperately tried to give away for years? Same guy right?”
David, just to be clear, Samuel Dalembert would not be my first choice to put next to Duncan. Although he is a good shotblocker and rebounder, I’m not particularly sold on him. Other people on this chat besides myself seem to be a firm supporter of Dalembert. However, if Parker is traded (and this is all hypothetical) I would rather trade an All star for an All star or Tony Parker for Al Jefferson. Would Minny go for it? Its possible since they have been shopping him all season.
Secondly, I think we are talking about the same Demarcus Cousins. The one I am speaking of is 6′11″ 260 lbs, has a great perimeter shot, and a huge wingspan. That Demarcus Cousins is also from Kentucky and expected to be a top 5 draft pick and some have compared him to Al Jefferson (Chad Ford in a recent article). Would he be raw coming out of college? Of course. Could he learn a TON from Duncan and be a force on the Spurs front line? Absolutely.
April 7th, 2010 at 5:38 pm
David G
April 7th, 2010 at 4:56 pm
“Jims next years Spurs
Dalembert
Duncan
Harriston
Iggy
Hill
That team doesn’t crack 40 wins in the West and they struggle to score 80 points per night.”
No. My team would be:
Hill
Iggy
RJ
Duncan
Dalembert
And that team would win 50 games, no question. We might score a little less (but way over 80!), but we’d give up less, and our score differential would improve. One these days guys on here will wake up and remember that DEFENSE wins championships.
junierizzle
April 7th, 2010 at 5:07 pm
“@DAVID G. Nicely put. I especially like how you point out the fact that IGGY and DBERT together are on one of the worst teams in the league.”
And I suppose before KG left the 32-50 T-Wolves to win a title with the Celts he wasn’t that good — just because he was on a poor team. Please refrain from giving nonsensical rationalizations for dismissing Iggy & Dalembert’s talent.
April 7th, 2010 at 5:48 pm
Regarding the prospects of picking up Splitter this season, I’m inclined to believe it’s in his best interests to come over this summer if he ever wants to play in the NBA. This will be his last chance to sign a contract under the current CBA, and it sounds like mid-level $ at the max number of years could end up being far better than what he would make under the new CBA, even if it means sitting out a whole year for a work stoppage here.
Under the same rationale (but unrelated to the Spurs), I would expect to see a lot of FA signings from Europe this summer, including Josh Childress coming back even if it means taking mid-level money to stay in Atlanta.
April 7th, 2010 at 5:59 pm
Umm… Jim, are you there?
KG took the t-wolves to the western conference finals and won the MVP so your comparison is weak.
Let me get this straight.. You want to get rid of Parker & Ginobili for Iggy & Dalembert?
Maybe you should just sit this one out champ…
April 7th, 2010 at 6:26 pm
Jim, let’s agree to disagree, but in my opinion you team of Hill, Iggy, Jefferson, Duncan and Dalembert is just a tad better that the current Sixers team, one of the worst in the NBA. Do you really, honestly believe that that is better than Parker, Ginobili, Jefferson, Duncan, Blair (I am not even counting Splitter)
You cannot be serious.
April 7th, 2010 at 6:41 pm
@JimHenderson
“No. My team would be:
Hill
Iggy
RJ
Duncan
Dalembert”
How would you get the 25 million or so for Iggy and Dalembert? The Spurs would need 25 million dollars to trade back to Philly. Even if they somehow got some exception to the NBA Salary cap rules I don’t see how that team wins 50 games. Dalembert isn’t that good of a defender (see 76ers games) and there is certainly not enough outside shooting for that team. Plus the mix of players wouldn’t work at all.
You have full-court fast paced wings in Jefferson and Iggy
You have slow half-court bigs in Duncan and Dalembert.
Plus this starting five would make Duncan the number one option on offense on every possession. I don’t think at this point in his career he’s up to carrying an offense for 100+ games. Plus, as mentioned, there would be a lot less space for him to operate then there is now with since Iggy and Dalembert can’t shoot, and Jefferson is certainly no Reggie Miller (or Bruce Bowen).
As for trading Parker for Jefferson. The Wolves would never do that. That have Sessions, Flynn, and Rubio overseas and now you really think they would take Parker? Only if they hired Don Nelson would they have any use for four point guards. (that would be a fun lineup though…Parker, Rubio, Flynn, Sessions, and Kevin Love)
As for Camby, Hayword, and Dampier. Those guys are not worth much more than the midlevel anyways and the Spurs have that whether they re-signed Ginobili or not. Plus Ginobili is much better than all three of them. All three are as injury prone or more so than Manu plus Camby doesn’t show on pick and rolls (which is a giant part of NBA play), Haywood doesn’t always play hard and would create spacing issues for the Spurs, and Dampier is Dampier.
As for Cousins. There’s not a bigger head case in this draft. He had a horrible attitude at Kentucky while he was working towards a multi-million dollar contract. I can’t wait to see his attitude and work ethic once he gets those millions! The Spurs that I know would never take a chance at Cousins.
April 7th, 2010 at 7:46 pm
ESPN reporting the Spurs and Manu agreeing to a 3 year, $38.9 million extension.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=5064686
April 7th, 2010 at 8:29 pm
VP of Common Sense
April 7th, 2010 at 5:59 pm
Iggy, Dalembert, AND Williams, a talented TWENTY-THREE year old point guard. But you guys make me laugh. All you think about is the “individual” “star” power of the Spurs in the deal, which has partly resulted from having good teammates around them, and a great coach, which ALL TOGETHER has resulted in a few titles. I don’t think most of you have even once considered age, physical durability or athleticism as important factors, nor how a particular player might fit in the Spurs system in an effort to address a salient weakness that the team has (height & defense). Thus, until you guys begin to demonstrate an understanding of, and proper weighting of these factors, I think I’ll just refrain from further commentary on the subject of the Philly trade proposal.
By the way, in an afternoon game today against the fifth seed in the East, the Miami Heat, which have a ten game winning streak, the “lowly” Sixers took the Heat down to the wire in a tough loss. And you know who had 19 pts., 8-9 shooting, 16 rebounds, and 4 blocks? That’s right, Dalembert. But you’re right, the 28 yr. old 7 footer just can’t play, and he really would be a terrible fit next to Mr. Tim Duncan. LOL!
On KG, I said in his last year with the T-Wolves his team was 32-50, a crappy record. Then he goes to play with some very good players in Boston and they win a title. There’s nothing wrong with that example. Even really good players need other good player to win it all. Pretty obvious. And I know one thing, Iggy would be an all-star on the Spurs.
April 7th, 2010 at 8:45 pm
Marcos
April 7th, 2010 at 6:26 pm
“Jim, let’s agree to disagree, but in my opinion you team of Hill, Iggy, Jefferson, Duncan and Dalembert is just a tad better that the current Sixers team, one of the worst in the NBA.”
No offense, but I just cracked up laughing when I read that! No team that had just Duncan & Iggy and any other “rotation players” in the league would would have record anywhere close to the record of this years Sixers squad. Get a clue before you make your next comment, please?!
“(I am not even counting Splitter)”
Gee, thanks for not counting Splitter, since WE DON’T HAVE HIM, and are unlikely to ever get him. And could we quit making silly arguments.
April 7th, 2010 at 9:02 pm
Duncan would be so better if at least 10% of the fouls commited against him would be called
April 7th, 2010 at 9:09 pm
How pathetic are the suns celebrating after every made basket. This must be like a championship for A’monkey Stoudemire, pathetic Grant over the Hill and Steve “lazy eye” Nash…they wont get out of the first round…any team can play well after 3 days off and against a team coming off a back to back on the road….
April 7th, 2010 at 9:10 pm
David G
April 7th, 2010 at 6:41 pm
I’m tired of arguing this issue. We’ll just have to agree to disagree. You apparently think the Spurs are as good as they’re going to get as is. For you the only good players are the Spurs and a few players on other teams that we couldn’t possibly get. So, good luck winning a title over the next several years from internal growth & external tinkering. It’s not gonna happen.
April 7th, 2010 at 9:17 pm
David G
April 7th, 2010 at 6:41 pm
“As for trading Parker for Jefferson. The Wolves would never do that. That have Sessions, Flynn, and Rubio overseas and now you really think they would take Parker?”
Actually, David, I didn’t give you the entire trade. That’s my fault. The trade suggested in its entirety was McDyess and Parker for Sessions and Jefferson and yes this trade does make sense. Twolves get and All Star PG to help with Flynn’s development as well as a good PF to help cover for Al’s absence. The Spurs get a good C and a decent young backup PG in Sessions. You referenced Rubio, however, he can’t come over until the 2012 season at the earliest due to the large buyout on his Spanish League contract. Like Splitter, there is a chance Rubio might never come over with his .
“As for Cousins. There’s not a bigger head case in this draft.”
Yes, he had an anger issue as a freshman in college but he’s a 19 year old kid, David, who just needs a few years and a little maturity. With the mentorship of Duncan and Pop, there’s little reason to believe he won’t be fine.
David, what are your solutions to the Spurs aging front line?
April 8th, 2010 at 2:44 am
Kobe got a 3yr/90 mil extension. I’ll take manu at less than half the cost.
April 8th, 2010 at 4:41 am
@JimJim
man, you may as well let it go. Assessing talent is not a productive conversation in here.
In my opinion, Dalembert would be the best center the Spurs have had since David. I agree with you and would take him over Tyson Chandler or Marcus Camby.
Iggy, I would pass on. Never liked his game. Seems wild and out of control and far too inconsistent. Does have great athleticism, but would be very overpriced.
The Ginnobli extension….WOW. I think it was a great move to sign him to an extension now. At 13 mil a year, he did get market value. However, the Spurs did gamble mightely in doing so.
Ginnobli put together 2 months of awsome play over the last two years. It was a blast to watch him improve his market that much after a dismal two years with the Spurs.
However, He did deserve to get paid based on all that he has accomplished for this franchise.
Does not improve things for TP though. His status has definately changed with this signing. We will see…
The reasons for the loss were obvious, but I think it was the best coached game of the year for Pop…Decent rotations and even saw an on the spot adjustment or two.
In the third, with seconds on the clock, Mason put up a 3 ball that missed and came off as a long rebound.
Bonner grabbed that rebound, turned and put the ball on the floor and finished with a nice jump hook over Amare.
Im not a Bonner fan, but I thought is was his best play ever as a Spur. Shows that he could be more effective if he actually played the 4 spot.
Finally, As I have said all year long….Cannot win with this frontcourt and these pieces this year…No center at all, two PF’s starting, and no depth at that 5 spot whatsoever.
Even though I dont like the make up of our current roster, this team could go to the finals….Yes, the finals, if we had one decent player in the middle….It is killing us.
also, Garrett Temple is OK…Played well and demonstrated good poise…But The D League’s Marcus Williams is 10 times better.
April 8th, 2010 at 5:06 am
@Hobson13
Those are not solutions because they wouldn’t happen outside of a fantasy league. The Wolves are not trading Al Jefferson for Tony Parker.
First it doesn’t make sense for the Wolves to trade for another point guard. It also doesn’t make any sense to trade for Jefferson for an older player who would leave after next year. The Wolves wouldn’t win any more games with Parker as opposed to Jefferson. McDyess presents the same issue. Kevin Love is younger and better than McDyess. They are both bigs who can’t protect the rim. The Wolves are already trying to work around the Jefferson/Love playing together defensively issue and McDyess does nothing to solve that. Jefferson for a one year rental point guard is not a “solution” unless you’re playing NBA Live.
Another “solution” you propose is Demarcus Cousins. First the Spurs won’t be in a position to draft him. Second he has more than a little “anger issue”.
You might as well say a solution is…
The Spurs draft Evan Turner, then do a sign in trade with Booner, Mason, and Boogans for Chris Bosh, and then have Tiago Splitter come over from Spain.
My new lineup
Parker
Ginobili
Evans
Bosh
Duncan
with Hill, Harriston, Splitter, and Blair off the bench.
In fact we could “solutionize” this thing even better!
Sign and trade Booner for Lebron James
Sign and trade Mason for Dwayne Wade
Sign and trade Boogans for Chris Bosh
Draft Evan Turner and John Hall
Solutioned!!
April 8th, 2010 at 7:19 am
Jim -
With all due respect, the team you outlined after the 76 trade wouldn’t come close to winning 50 games. Why? Is that team you propose better than the team we have right now? I say definitely no. If they’re not better than the team we have right now, which is barely going to get to 50 wins, how can you say they’d win 50 games no question?
Hill
Iggy
RJ
Duncan
Dalembert
While this team is younger and more athletic, you still have zero perimeter shooting. Hill, Iggy, and RJ aren’t going to be respected beyond the arc (which coincidentally is what’s happening in Philadelphia right now). Defenses would sag into the paint and beg you to beat them from outside. This team would score about 80-85 points a night in our system - not enough to win 50 games or come close to making the playoffs in the West.
Also, as much as I like him, Hill isn’t ready to lead an NBA team full time. He lacks the creativity to be a great facilitator on the offensive end, which leaves Iggy as your creator and that hasn’t exactly set the world on fire in Phily.
By trading Manu, you also gut one of the best benches in the league. Lou Williams, Bonner, Hairston, Temple, Bogans, and Blair doesn’t exactly strike fear in me.
And regarding your thoughts on Carl Landry - I would hardly call him a soon-to-be dominant PF in the NBA. Nice player? Yes, All-Star caliber? Probably not. He’s Paul Millsap at the very best, which isn’t bad, but by no means dominant.
April 8th, 2010 at 11:47 am
Tyler
April 8th, 2010 at 7:19 am
As I said, we’ll have to just agree to disagree. This team would win 50 games, and would score over 90, and give up 85. You guys just have NO idea how good Iggy would become on a good team with someone like the best PF to ever play the game. It’s become all to obvious that I’m not going to budge any of you on that. But the idea that he’s a “bad” shooter is pathetically ignorant (not that he couldn’t improve in that area), not to mention that outside shooting is NOT the most important skill you need to be invaluable to a team’s chances to win a championship: it’s DEFENSE, getting to the RACK for high percentage shot opportunities, and being a EXCELLENT passer, all things IGGY excels in at his position. Williams also has excellent overall potential at the point. And by the way, Hill has become an excellent outside/3 pt. shooter (40% this year, but not respected?!), and this will only improve, not to mention Bonner (a career 40% shooter, among the leaders in the whole league) in the rotation. It is true that we would need to add a 3-point specialist to the rotation through free agency. Perhaps Kapono, who knows.
And finally, I’m not saying the Philly trade is the best one out there that is/was potentially realistic, but it represents the type of thinking that this organization is going to have to come to grips with in order to compete at a HIGH level into the future. We have to start getting a bit younger & more athletic, and get a TALL competent big next to Duncan. But as I said to David G., none of you guys want to offer realistic suggestions on how to reinvigorate this team so that we have a “true” opportunity to challenge again for the title in the near future. The team has now decided that they want to keep Ginobli. Now what? Does that make this team as currently constructed a championship contender? I don’t think so. If you guys don’t think so either, what are YOUR SOLUTIONS!
April 8th, 2010 at 3:04 pm
”Does that make this team as currently constructed a championship contender? I don’t think so”
Jim…
DON’T EVER UNDERESTIMATE THE HEART OF A CHAMPION
April 8th, 2010 at 6:44 pm
Resaca
April 8th, 2010 at 3:04 pm
We do have the type of players that “could” pull off a miracle. At this point, however, I just wouldn’t take that bet with less than 10/1 odds. I just look at the match-ups, and they simply don’t favor us to even get to the Conference Finals, let alone win it all.
I’m also big on reality, less on the traditional use of the word “hope”. The traditional concept of hope is for passive dreamers. Real hope is having the courage to take actions in an effort to change existing circumstances. I prefer to point out facts, and ultimately accept the situation as it is if I can’t do anything to change it. And the fact is, we are very unlikely to win a title with our current front line. Sure, in the unlikely event that we win, I’ll be quite happy, but I can’t DO anything to make that happen. Simply “hoping” for it by putting a positive spin on it is not going to make winning any more likely, but it will make the disappointment that comes with losing just that much harder to swallow.
April 8th, 2010 at 7:58 pm
Hey I presented an “opportunity” as true as yours already. Sign James, Wade, and Bosh this summer. That’s the kind of thinking the Spurs and their fans need to embrace if they want to win a championship anytime soon.
I find it hard to believe that Iggy plays great defense, gets high percentage shots (his 53% True Shooting says otherwise), and is an “excellent passer” could be the lead player for a 26-52 team in a week conference, playing in the weakest division in the NBA. 26-52 playing in the same division as Toronto, New York, and New Jersey! Really? Iggy isn’t one of the most overpaid players in the league? The 76ers haven’t been trying to give away Dalembert for year? How do you square that away Jim? No team would take Dalembert off the 76ers hands but he’s a big part of your “realistic solution”. What do you see that 31 other NBA front offices don’t see? The fact that Billy King liked him at some point tells you all you need to know about Dalembert.
Yet you continue to argue that Iggy, Dalembert, and a 6′1 shooting guard is the answer for the Spurs. Paying 30 million dollars a year is a great plan for the small market team like the Spurs.
April 8th, 2010 at 11:12 pm
David G
April 8th, 2010 at 7:58 pm
Please cite your sources on this:
“The 76ers haven’t been trying to give away Dalembert for year? How do you square that away Jim?”
Without credible sources, this comment is meaningless. Believe me, the ONLY reason they would be “trying to give Dalembert away” would be to engage in a strategy of “dumping salary” to create cap space. The tragic luck/mistake Philly made was signing Brand for big bucks, and then Brand suffering a very serious knee injury that has prevented him from ever getting back to the level of player he once was. That made it difficult for them to build around the three (w/Iggy & Dalembert). So I’m sure there’s been thoughts in the FO about completely gutting the team to start over. And I do agree, they overpaid a bit for Dalembert (and he probably can be had for closer to 8-10 mil. after is current contract expires in 2011). At 26 years old, and the only player in the league (on any team, good or bad) other than James to average +17ppg, +5.5 apg, +6 rpg, & +1.5 spg, Iggy is worth 12 mil. in my view, and would probably be worth more on a good team with a good coach, like the Spurs.
And, David, why do you keep repeating your point that really good players don’t play on weak teams? Has there actually been no really good players
that have ever played on weak teams? Why do you keep bringing up such nonsense, David? If you really think the point you’re making is correct, support your argument with some examples, like KG couldn’t be a good passer and defender because he played on a 32-50 T-Wolve team. Paul Pierce is not an excellent player because he played on six Celtic teams that won less than 36 games in a season? And no, I’m not going to take the time to list ALL of the examples, there are literally dozens of them. You’re the one that’s trying to make the point here, so why don’t you bring some examples to support it? What is your reasoning? I assume you do realize that a very good player has to have two or three other very good players, plus some solid role players, and a very good coach & FO to win there division, and at least get through a round or two in the playoffs? Unfortunately, Philly is not that team, and there’s not a damn thing that Iggy can do about it. You take Iggy off that team and put Tony Parker on the team instead and it would still be a poor team. Have you ever watched Iggy play (more than a couple of games!) over the years?
And by the way, I admitted in a recent post on this thread that the Philly trade I proposed was “not the best one out there”. I least I offered something up for public consumption. I get it that you don’t like the deal, and feel the need to pass it off as completely unrealistic & nonsensical, but what are your brilliant ideas, David, other than silly sarcasm?
The following is from my previous post, which I’m not surprised that you chose to ignore:
“The team has now decided that they want to keep Ginobli. Now what? Does that make this team as currently constructed a championship contender? I don’t think so. If you guys don’t think so either, what are YOUR SOLUTIONS!”
So, if you don’t think the Spurs are a solid contender for the title now, what are YOUR solutions, David? If you do, please explain how we’re favored in the crucial match-ups that will decide the victor among the elite teams? And please, try to present something more than puerile, mocking types of comments, like, lets just sign LeBron, Wade, & Bosh. That would be very helpful.
April 9th, 2010 at 9:14 am
Jim-
It’s common knowledge the 76’s have been trying to dump Dalembert for well over a year. Google it up and you’ll find the evidence. Also, read anything the ESPN columnists have written and you’ll find it as well, especially their chats. Before this year’s trading deadline, the 76’s were forced to throw in Iggy as a “sweetener” to try and get the deal done. Even with him included, no one bit. Phoenix came the closest, yet nothing got done.
Listen, I agree with your logic behind the trade. We definitely need another big on our roster. I’m also in agreement with you that it behooves us to be proactive, to listen to every potential offer out there (even deals that include cornerstones of our success) in hopes of putting the franchise on more solid ground, both short and long term. In fact, these are things I think almost everyone on this board agrees with. The only part I disagree with yout on is this particular deal. I just don’t see how that trade makes this franchise better, both in the short term and in the long term.
April 9th, 2010 at 1:11 pm
Tyler
April 9th, 2010 at 9:14 am
“It’s common knowledge the 76’s have been trying to dump Dalembert for well over a year. Google it up and you’ll find the evidence. Also, read anything the ESPN columnists have written and you’ll find it as well, especially their chats. Before this year’s trading deadline, the 76’s were forced to throw in Iggy as a “sweetener” to try and get the deal done. Even with him included, no one bit. Phoenix came the closest, yet nothing got done.”
Fine, but as I said, because of the hard luck regarding Brand, the FO apparently had a panic attack, believing that they were now “stuck” with getting less out of the “big three” than anticipated for the the generosity they invoked (the salaries they offered at the time were healthy, if not a bit much), so they had some thoughts about gutting the team & starting over. Brand was a key piece to their long-term plans, and as we all now, while he can still play, he’s nowhere near the player he was at the time, and the future promise is likely gone forever.
In addition, there’s no indication that I’m aware of that Philly was simply interested in letting the two (Sam, Iggy) go for free, as simply a “salary dump”. Every indication is that they were open to trading the two for the right pieces. In fact, most recently, there were “apparently” talks about them trading Dalembert & Iggy to the Suns for Amare Stoudemire, but because the Sixers didn’t budge, supposedly the Suns were to add Barbosa to the deal, and the Sixers still didn’t take it (http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/13214/is-cleveland-big-enough-for-amare-and-shaq).
From the “chat” by ESPN’s, Chad Ford:
“In particular, the Suns are still holding out hope that Philadelphia will come to the table and agree to a deal sending Andre Iguodala and Samuel Dalembert to Phoenix. The Suns have sweetened their offer to the 76ers by including Leandro Barbosa in a package with Stoudemire. Also possible is a three-way trade that would send Hickson and Barbosa (along with Ilgauskas) to Philly, Stoudemire to Cleveland and Iguodala and Dalembert to Phoenix.”
Now, how is that say that the Suns were the one that balked at Iggy & Dalembert? They had to offer Stoudemire (one of the most dominant scoring PF’s in the game), AND add Barbosa (young, fast, talented shooter) to the pot, and the deal still didn’t go down!
So, the implication that somehow these players (Sam, Iggy) aren’t worth much as players, and are nowhere near worth their salaries is preposterous. And I’d be careful if I were you of equating “common knowledge” with rumor. If it is so COMMON, why don’t you just provide me a quick link that supports your case (please don’t use “team” blog chatter as a source).
As far as the trade itself, you and others undervalue Iggy & Dalembert in terms of what they would mean for our team, both now, and into the FUTURE, and over value our overstocked back court that’s at least halfway into twilight. And as I said, it is very likely this is not the very BEST trade out there, but I don’t here ANYTHING else from you guys on this blog as to what we need to do to address the front line issues that are likely to plague our team for many years without looking to upgrade NOW! It’s not that hard to offer up reasonable trade options or FA acquisitions that might make sense, yet everyone just wants to criticize trade, OR FA suggestions, and provide NO possible answers for a glaring weakness on this team so that we can again truly contend for a title over the next several years.
What are we going to do when Duncan retires, give up? Hope to get lucky in the draft for another “franchise” player? We need to wake up around here and start making some productive, meaningful suggestions, and if we’re going to critique, please bring some logic & data to support your “thumbs down” assessments.
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