Thursday, April 8th, 2010...5:26 am
Phoenix Suns 112, San Antonio Spurs 101: Tony Parker, Spurs look slow in defeat
The San Antonio Spurs have never really feared the Phoenix Suns. The sentiment amongst the Spurs’ fan base is that the Suns are championship pretenders-something like a postseason punching bag. But that sentiment is borne of different times, and this Suns team should be taken seriously. These Phoenix Suns, for example, play a slightly grittier style of defense than past incarnations, thanks to players such as Louis Amundson.
The Suns easily handled the Spurs en route to a convincing 112-101 victory last night. They owned the game from the last third of the second quarter until the final buzzer. Steve Nash and Amar’e Stoudemire, individually and as a pick and roll tandem, torched the Spurs. And the Spurs, for their part, torched themselves, looking every bit an old team on the back half of a back-to-back. The team’s jumpers were flat and they played a slow, plodding version of their already slow brand of basketball.
And while it’s good not to read too deeply into one game, that is the temptation given that these two teams are possible first round foes.
Here’s what won’t happen very often: the Spurs were 6-25 on their three pointers and 17-28 from the stripe. That’s fatigue. The absence of George Hill was felt on the defensive end, as well. (John Hollinger recently rated George Hill the second best defensive point guard in the league.) Hill’s ability to help with Nash is a crucial consideration when comparing Spurs-Suns rosters. The Spurs’ poor shooting and the absence of Hill are two reasons to dismissively meh this loss away.
What’s not likely to change-not until he’s able to rest for a few months-is Tony Parker’s plantar fasciitis. Parker didn’t look winded last night, but he did look slow. The same kind of slow he’s been all season. A slowness that comes when it’s painful to push off one’s feet, when it’s painful to accelerate. Parker’s on-going injury is one reason to come away from this loss with concern.
After missing 16 games, the Spurs were hopeful that Tony Parker would return with his trademark zip, zip, zoom. But that’s not who Tony Parker is this season. And it’s not who he’ll be until he finds extended rest.
It’s with this in mind, that I’m increasingly interested to see whom Gregg Popovich starts during the postseason: George Hill or Tony Parker?
70 Comments
April 8th, 2010 at 5:47 am
East Coast Time Zone made me miss the 4th but the Spurs looked slow all night. I was hoping that Parker’s foot would look better with the time off he had. He’s foot injury is allowing managment and fans a glimps into what level the future Parker can play at.
April 8th, 2010 at 5:50 am
Disappointing, but I’m not too down on this game, though it IS a bit ironic considering the discussion of Blowout Wins/Losses yesterday. :\
Anyway, as a columnist and radio-show host here in Dallas says, “It was a scheduled Loss.” Phoenix had days of rest and were at home while the Spurs were on the SEGABABA (I like that) on the road both games - West Coast, too.
The way Phx closed out the first half, I knew the team just didn’t have it last night, though I am encouraged by the 10 for 10 finish at the free throw line and for the most part RMJs play.
What I saw last night was definitely a tired team. Too many missed layups and not enough arc on threes.
So we’ll chalk it up in the L column, move on and hope to finish the season out with Ws.
I’ll hold out saying TP didn’t get his zip back until the next two or three games, though. He came back for back-to-back games on the road after a month off. It’s gonna take a little bit to get his conditioning back in order.
I still feel pretty good about this team though, especially if GHill (crazy how much he’s needed on this team now, isn’t it?) gets back for the Playoffs.
GO SPURS GO!
April 8th, 2010 at 5:55 am
Picking up from the last trade/no trade comments
@Jim Henderson
Jim, I agree with you that most people here post useless stuff because they have no clue how the cap works, or how the Fiba market works, or that receiveing teams in a trade want something good in order to give up something good.
I also agree, as stated in my previous posts, that we can’t compete for a title anymore and therefore should take drastic measures (read: trades) to get back on track.
However, I would only ever trade Manu and/or Parker for picks, or ypung players with no more than 1-2 years experience.
We need 1 franchise player. Ideally a big who can score with his back to the basket and pass out of the post who can be developed quickly with Duncan’s mentoring.
If we don’t completely rebuild, but go half way maintaing a good part of our core, than the one who can get us the most in a trade is Parker.
But, can’t trade TP to a laughing stock, small market team, because his contract would be up and he would likely bolt after just one year.
So one option to trade Parker (provided they have a high lottery pick) could be the Clippers (he’d love to play in LA and would make sense to his wife).
The Clippers don’t want both Davis and TP? No problem, you can do a 3 team trade where the Lakers get Baron and we get some Lakers’ expiring contracts we don’t care for.
If the Nets end out of the first 3 picking position, and they don’t like the player they can get at the 4, they may be willing to trade their pick for a proven player.
Again we could do a 3 team trade with let’s say Charlotte for Wallace or Jackson.
Utah has NY’s pick, again a 3 team trade…
Depending on how the season ends for some teams, and the draft and free agency, the possibilities will vary, but they will be there to get a high pick out of a Parker deal.
Could Cousins be the answer? I doubt it because:
- on talent and potential alone he’s worth a # 1 pick
- but if teams who can pick him with the highest 2/3 picks pass on him because of his issues, he doesn’t stand a chance to be selected by us, since we usually care even more than other teams about character and intangibles.
Then there’s Splitter. If the MLE we can offer is not enough for him, we can trade his rights to a team under the cap. By himself or better yet in a larger transaction.
Finally, we just re-signed Manu: it doesn’t mean we can’t trade him in the off season.
The chances we have to retool our roster are fantastic, we even have the option to half dismantle the present core or start rebuilding slowly but, in my humble opinion, we must break up the big 3.
Unless, and I apologise for repeting myself, we want to end up like Bird’s Celtics.
April 8th, 2010 at 6:30 am
I went to the game last night and still get the feeling that the Suns are still scared of the Spurs, but not the same type of scared as before. We did look tired last night. It made me appreciate Hill more after seeing how many minutes Temple played. Hopefully Hill will be back to 100% this next game and Tony can get a little rhythm back.
April 8th, 2010 at 6:31 am
It seems like Tony doesn’t try finish around the rim like he used to. Now when he penetrates, he’s usually looking to pass, even though its often a worse look than the one he gave up.
April 8th, 2010 at 6:42 am
The team obviously looked out of sorts last night. The suns are not a good defensive team giving up about 107.5 points per 100 possessions. Last night we scored fine thanks to 20 offensive boards (46.5% of our misses). I’m not sure how many and 1’s we had but glancing at the box it looked like we scored 101 points in about 91 possessions on a night we looked lackluster. The problem is that Phoenix scored 112 points in a similar number of possessions. Ridiculous. As good as Phoenix is on offense (and they are very, very good averageing 112.8 points on 100 possessions) there is no way we should be giving up those kind of points. I’m going to assume it’s because of no Hill and the segababa and move on with my life.
April 8th, 2010 at 6:46 am
Last night was a back-to-back, which won’t be a problem come playoffs.Maybe we should have waited until after the season to sign Manu, he did not perform at all. I’m glad Mason made a comeback of sorts.
The Suns have trashed the Spurs in previous years, but playoff games (in the Duncan era) always favor SA.
April 8th, 2010 at 6:49 am
@Jim and @Fransesco
You guys are trying to bring up some good conversation. But you can’t talk trades without using RJ’s expiring contract. My point:
“Jim, I agree with you that most people here post useless stuff because they have no clue how the cap works, or how the Fiba market works, or that receiveing teams in a trade want something good in order to give up something good.”
Not true. Absolutely not true. Teams will trade for crummy players with crazy big contracts just to get money off the books. I don’t know much about the CBA or RJ’s contract, I admit, but I do know that the last part is false. Why do you think that “Theo Ratliff’s expiring deal” became such a HUGE trade piece a couple seasons ago? Because expiring contracts are worth a lot to these teams regardless of the player attached to them. Just wanted to point that out again.
April 8th, 2010 at 6:56 am
Don’t be hating on tony 2 games back…..let the guy find his feet again….hopefully we can win 3 of 4 and lock up 6th spot and hand the mavs or nuggs an early exit.
April 8th, 2010 at 6:57 am
@Kevin
Definitely agree with you that expiring contracts are highly sought after and therefore can be considered “something good”.
I don’t think we’d be able to trade him in the off season though, I guess it would be more likely at the February deadline…
Unless of course he becomes part of a multi-player transaction.
But RJ by himself is not gonna get us a high lottery pick, at least I don’t think so.
April 8th, 2010 at 7:02 am
Francesco you are risking a proven All Star, Finals MVP for a pick that you have no clue as how it will translate to the NBA. It doesn’t sound like the smart thing to do. The other way around is, for example, what the Celtics did and got a title. What if the pick doesn’t work out? You would have given Parker away for nothing… I don’t agree with your reasoning.
April 8th, 2010 at 7:05 am
As mentioned in the Valley of the Suns article, the Phoenix D looked surprisingly good. I thought their pick and roll D was very solid, and their rotations to 3 point shooters was extremely good. That was part of the reason for bad shooting from 3 pt territory last night. It’s very weird for me to say Phoenix’s D was the key to their victory last night.
April 8th, 2010 at 7:22 am
@Marcos
I didn’t understand your comment about Boston, but anyway, yes I agree with you a pick is always a risk, but at least it gives you a CHANCE.
Keeping the core as it is until both Duncan and Manu are done is FOR SURE the way to end up in mediocrity
Also, look at it from this other side:
- this summer we keep the team as it is, with minor retooling
- next year ends like this one: playoff but no title in sight, or worse, Duncan or Manu suffer a major injury
- Parker is a free agent and bolts for another team and we get nothing for it.
Trading Parker is not so different than signing Manu to an extension: in both cases you get something good and at the same time prevent loosing the player for nothing.
April 8th, 2010 at 7:23 am
The Suns played the best free throw defense I’ve ever seen. Seriously though, last night’s game was the very definition of a “scheduled loss” in the NBA.
April 8th, 2010 at 7:25 am
Our guys didn’t reach their hotel rooms until around 3 am last night. I’ll give them a huge pass for not being able to match the Suns’ energy level. It’s not like the Spurs were even flat, seeing as they scored 101 points. Also, we started an undrafted rookie point guard.
The mind and the heart were there, but the legs weren’t, end of story. No need to read any more deeply than that.
April 8th, 2010 at 7:29 am
Even with a completely healthy team, playing the second game of a back to back against a fully rested, playoff ready team at home, our odds of winning the game would be about 10%. The only story would have been how bad Phoenix played if they had lost against a tired, traveling, injured team. This game really says nothing about the Spurs.
April 8th, 2010 at 7:32 am
The team looks out of sorts because we have two new, as of late, ball handlers in Parker and Temple. In both games Temple has outpayed Parker. We should ship him for a big.
McDyess was our worse signing. Even for how poorly Jefferson played at the beginning of the year, McDyess is worse. His defense, lack of aggression, and age is disgusting.
April 8th, 2010 at 7:47 am
I watched the entire game last night and while disappointing I don’t consider it a bad loss. Obviously, as everyone has mentioned, the missed free throws and turnovers were a result of the back to back and were what lost the game. There were a couple positives I took away when all was said and done.
1) It was great to see the offense run through Duncan. For the past 2 months it has been mostly pick and rolls with Duncan picking up a basket where he can. Last night Duncan was fed the ball almost every possession and was able to use some moves I hadn’t seen Tim use in a while.
2) Mason Jr. finally scored some points. He’s still too weak on defense and ball handling but he carried his weight with the shooting.
3) Jefferson attacked the rim hard and hit some outside shots down. I know he has been improving over the past weeks but last night he had a little more edge.
4) Finally, I loved the defense Temple played on Nash in the first quarter. I know Nash killed in the second but Temple had the lateral speed to stick with him. He fought through screens much better than Parker and Mason and seemed to enjoy the defensive role. He can’t really shoot but I hope he stays in the rotation come playoffs to provide some defense. He doesn’t know all the schemes yet but can provide man to man help. A combination of Hill and Temple on the opposing 1 or 2 looks like a potential shut down combo.
Hopefully they blow out Memphis early so this same fatigue doesn’t follow the team to Denver
April 8th, 2010 at 7:48 am
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April 8th, 2010 at 7:49 am
@ TradeTp
McDyess grabbed huge offensive boards last night and played decent D.
April 8th, 2010 at 7:57 am
I was at last night’s game. I can’t stand watching the San Antonio home games on T.V. and seeing all these thugs rooting for the Lakers! The local fans don’t get up and shout or nothing. I’ve been to games at the AT&T center. They are a yawn. The Suns fans go crazy! I called Rita Pasierb at the Spurs front office and she was gracious enough to send me some Thunder Sticks and some of the “accordion style” posters! I handed them out to our wonderful fans that I saw last night and we screamed our lungs out!
April 8th, 2010 at 8:12 am
Man people need to stop talking about trading people.
Talk about that in the summer when its the right time.
I watched the game and hoped the spurs were gonna have a chance in the 4th when Mason was making shots, anyways he shouldn’t be tired since he hasn’t played hard like the other players. His hand must be getting better. And I hope it does.
April 8th, 2010 at 8:32 am
I wasn’t too upset last night since it was a back-t-back. If they hit their free throws, maybe they could have stole one.
Now to the positive:
RMJ had a great game. I hope he can get his shot back.
The Spurs can pretty much score on them at will.
Mcdeezy had a good night.
Spurs missed all those free throws and were only trailing by 5 in the fourth quarter. And that was after the SUNS best punch.
Manu ain’t gonna play like that in the playoffs.
I aint scared of em.
@FRANCESCO
You say they need to get a franchise player like its the easiest thing to do.
Hey I have an idea. How about we trade TP to the NETS for the no 1 pick. Then they can draft John WAll. Yeah, then the SPURS should be contenders in about 6 years. If he isn’t a bust.
Give it up dude. You and and Jim Henderson.
Both of you say they need to rebuild but you guys haven’t given any suggestions that make sense. All your ideas have a lot of “what ifs” and “this needs to happen” You can’t trade TD TP or MANU.
If you guys were Laker Fans you’d be saying let’s trade KOBE. He’s going to decline in the next 2 years.
April 8th, 2010 at 8:33 am
@Bert,
Preach on, brother. I think we, as fans, should be focusing on the playoffs and not about getting rid of our key players.
April 8th, 2010 at 8:46 am
@chandlerAZfan, Suns fans go crazy cause they are full of hate and bitterness cause they can never get past the second round of the playoffs. I love that they hate the Spurs so much. It makes it a lot of fun. The last time I went to a game in SA was at the Alamodome before Duncan was around and it was a crazy place. But I think you feel the intensity a little more when you’re wearing the away teams gear at the game.
April 8th, 2010 at 8:48 am
How about this insight… Manu didn’t go all crazy against the Suns because he has his sights set on signing his max extension… don’t won’t to hurt yourself prior to placing ink on that contract…
April 8th, 2010 at 8:53 am
@ Bert & Bryan
I, as a fan, am concerned about the future
@ Junierizzle
Never said it’s easy to get franchise players, I am saying it’s next to impossible without trading.
Do you really think the Nets, or any other team, would trade the #1 pick for Parker? Not in this world. Parker does not have that much value.
You say I don’t offer suggestions that make sense.
It’s ok if you don’t like what I propose, BUT NONE OF YOU GUYS WHO WANT TO KEEP THE CORE INTACT HAS EVER COME UP WITH A VIABLE WAY TO WIN EITHER NEXT YEAR OR IN FIVE YEARS TIME.
Noone has offered a plan.
And no I wouldn’t propose to trade Kobe: some players, just like Duncan in our case, simply cannot be traded.
Also, the Lakers are winning now but also have Bynum: they don’t need to rebuild because they already have a good chunk of their future.
April 8th, 2010 at 8:56 am
Is Bogans out with an injury? I’m not one to call for Bogans,but I remember when Pop put Bowen on Nash and his size and physicality really seemed to bother him. I don’t know if it would have worked because Bogans isn’t exactly quick, but I wanted to see Pop try it anyway.
April 8th, 2010 at 9:02 am
Tim - I thought the same thing about the Suns until last night. They may be better equipped defensively to extend a series with the Mavs and Nuggets, but they’re no threat to the Spurs and may still be gone in the 1st round. Phoenix had three days of rest, Spurs were playing their third road game in four days. No Hill. A rusty Parker. Tired Manu & Duncan. And yet they were tied, despite 11 missed FTs, with 90 seconds to go in the first half. The unforced turnovers, missed open shots and FTs plus lack of aggression on D were all due to circumstance not opponent. The Spurs’ bench even outscored and rebounded the Suns’ despite Manu being a starter.
They are not a legit worry in a seven game series. Getting our team some rest is. It’s time to sit Manu in one of these final games, and sit Duncan in another.
April 8th, 2010 at 9:08 am
I wonder how many of the fans being impatient with Tony, all of two games back, were ripping Manu’s play early in the season? Folks, take a dash of loyalty and mix with a cup of patience. It’s not a video game; these players have to find their game legs and lungs, to say nothing of getting their own confidence back while fitting into a team system. Tony will be fine even if not at a 2008-09 level. Fortunately he doesn’t have to be at that level since we have Manu and more scoring punch and athleticism than last year.
April 8th, 2010 at 9:31 am
It’s over Sperms fans.
Suns going deep in the playoffs.
You guys are making excuses. Can’t win without Cheap Shot Rob?
April 8th, 2010 at 9:39 am
I was actually hoping they would rest the big guys longer. I think the game being tight long enough pushed the envelope a little too much.
April 8th, 2010 at 10:13 am
@Francesco,
Sure we have you just don’t listen, the Spurs, as is, have been a good team in a tough conference despite injury problems. So, we think to ourselves, hey, if we can come back healthy next year with our core, we could be very good. All the Spurs really need is to hit the postseason healthy and in full stride. Something we won’t do this year thanks to TPs foot.
Look, if TP takes the summer off, then I want him back. He’s still young and had a great season just last year. However, if he decides to play all summer despite the fact that the only cure for his condition is rest, then I’m open to trading him. However, it’s going to be hard to get his value simply because everyone else will see what we see.
As much as people talk about our need for bigs, what about our guard situation? I like Hill, but has he shown he can run the show for long stretches without a guy like Manu on the floor with him? If we lose TP we need another guy who can create on the peremiter. I think any plan that ignores this is destined to fail.
April 8th, 2010 at 10:33 am
@bduran
You, as others, are talking about having “a very good year” next year. Maybe that is the reason why we cannot seem to understand each other.
I am talking about having a team that can compete for the title next year, or building one for the future.
If you are ok with making the conference finals I respect your opinion, but I’m interested in something different.
Fully agree about summer commitments, and that goes for Manu too, especially if he really signs at the max.
Agree also, in case we trade Parker, about the need for an additional ballhandler. Steve Blake could be had either in a TP trade to the Clippers, or as a MLE option. Hinrich or Darren Collison in a 3-way deal for the rights to Splitter. Shaun Livingston probably worth 15 to 20 minutes a game.
April 8th, 2010 at 10:48 am
im going to give this loss a pass. PJ himself said it was a tall order for the road weary spurs to beat the fresh suns on the second game of a back to back. look, i know mahinmi is not a rotation player, but i just don’t see the fault in giving him some minutes in these situations to give timmy and dice some rest. he may have provided some interior offense as well. malik hairston could have used some more burn also. i just don’t think it is particularly bad strategy to let these guys run the floor a little bit on these second game situations.
we could have used hill on dragic. he really came alive in the 4th. at least tony is getting his legs back.
and for the record, “rj” are my initials. im not a richard jefferson fan boy.
April 8th, 2010 at 10:51 am
also, mahinmi is a good matchup for amare. he is a solid pick and roll defender and stoudemire’s game is in no way crafty like a scola or duncan. *sigh*…….im wasting my breath
April 8th, 2010 at 10:52 am
Dave in Boise: excellent point. I was thinking the same thing. Bowen used to give Nash fits and was a major reason for our success in the past. Like you, I’m not sold on Bogans. He’s been hugely inconsistent with no apparent pattern. He’s been very good against some of the best (Kobe in particular) and useless at other times. One thing I do like about him is his attitude. He has a certain “give a shit” toughness that no one else on the team really shows, at least outwardly. I also thought Pop might even try Malik H on Nash. He’s tall, quick, athletic and agile. If nothing else it would seem to have been a good time to give them a test run for the playoffs. But nada. Seems peculiar to me.
April 8th, 2010 at 11:08 am
[...] Phoenix Suns 112, San Antonio Spurs 101: Tony Parker, Spurs look slow in defeat Jump to Comments The San Antonio Spurs have never really feared the Phoenix Suns. The sentiment amongst the [...]
April 8th, 2010 at 11:18 am
I agree with Bert. At this time of the season, especially with how well we’ve played lately, why are you talking about trades and blowing up the team? Some players read these blogs:
http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/14661/zaza-pachulia-makes-dreams-come-true
and
http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/11459/kevin-durant-eats-plusminus-for-breakfast
. . . just as a couple of examples.
If you’re a fan, right now is cheer-leading time. Unless you live in NY, that’s part of the responsibility of being a fan. I don’t think the FO would have extended Manu at this moment if they didn’t think that we have a legitimate shot at doing something big this year. This season is not without hope, even if we aren’t the favorites going into the post-season. There is time to talk about how to improve the team once we hit the off-season, but IMO, it might be a nice demonstration of gratitude toward the players and toward Mr. Holt for all they’ve put into this season if we toned down some of the negative and pessimistic comments heading into the post-season.
April 8th, 2010 at 11:22 am
Next time they play Roger Mason I might turn off the tv right there
April 8th, 2010 at 12:16 pm
@Gary, saying Mason has struggled is an understatement but did you watch the game? Mason was one of the only bright spots hitting his shots.
@ Dave in Boise and agutierrez - I was thinknig the same thing you guys were. I’m no fan of Bogans but he has played decent D during our streak. One of the worst parts of last nights loss was the poor pick and roll defense. Nash was destroying us. Would have been nice to have a body push him around a bit. I was also wanting to see Malik give Nash a shot. It’s not like anyone else we threw at him was slowing him down.
April 8th, 2010 at 12:19 pm
actually, mcdyess has been playing much better on defense and offense lately. People were right when they said mcdyess turns the motor on hig when playoffs are near
April 8th, 2010 at 12:33 pm
@Francisco - I get it with the rebuilding talk etc. We do need length. Doing it via draft picks isn’t the wisest thing when you are looking to give up an all star and finals MVP for a “possible” skilled big man with a good post game. Sounds like we are looking for Duncan part II. Those only come around every so often. San Antonio was blessed to have that happen twice via Robinson and then again with Duncan. Seems like bigs are the trickest part of drafting. Look at what’s come out of the lottery in the last 3 year as far as prolific bigs.
2007 - Oden#1, Horford #3, Yi Jianlian #6, Noah #9, Spencer Hawes#10
2008 - Beasely #2, Kevin Love #5, Danilo Gallirari #6, Brook Lopez #10
2009 - Griffin #1 Thabeet #2
Out of that group there is only 1 All-Star and that is Horford. While I like his game he most likely wouldn’t be an All Star if he played in the West. There are some guys on that list that would be great additions and there are some guys on that list that are not worth losing TP over. Luck has a lot to do with it (i.e. draft Bargnani with the #1 pick and you just missed out on LaMarcus Aldridge). Locks like Duncan and Robinson and few and far between. I think another poster mentioned the Celtics, and I beleive what he was talking about was re-tooling their team via FA’s not the draft. At least with FA’s you have known commodities that have NBA experience (still not locks; the project that is RJ). You have to look at Duncan’s window and will some decent draft pick have an impact to push a team to a championship in the first 2 to 3 years of his career? Even MJ took a while to become a champion. I’m thinking FA’s is where we should be looking not the lottery. Trading for an early pick is still trading for an unknown NBA commodity. Someone else posted a list of FA’s (bigs) and we can use the trade machine to death, but it has to be a deal BOTH teams want. Perhaps RJ’s real worht to the Spurs will be his expiring contract… I won’t give it much thought until after the playoffs are over. For now, it’s playoff push time.
April 8th, 2010 at 12:34 pm
“Locks like Duncan and Robinson ARE few and far between”
April 8th, 2010 at 12:42 pm
Not many comments on Tim’s question. I’ll go with George over Tony right now. Not only the continuity issue, but given Tony’s injuries I would like to see how he does with the second unit.
Why not use him as Pop has used Manu the last few seasons?
April 8th, 2010 at 12:43 pm
In case this isn’t posted already,
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/blog/ball_dont_lie/post/Jared-Dudley-knows-how-to-stop-Manu-Ginobili-md;_ylt=AmAengKVdrGjZaGbiEfdFmJzK7J_?urn=nba,232914
April 8th, 2010 at 1:10 pm
Francesco
April 8th, 2010 at 5:55 am
I might disagree with some of the details of your thoughts (e.g., I’m not sure I want to put much into trading for draft picks), but it’s good to hear you’re fully confronting the harsh realities of this team over the next few years without more of a shake-up. I can’t even get guys to offer “realistic” tinkering type of maneuvers to get this team so it could even realistically compete over the “short” term (e.g., going after Camby)!
Francesco
April 8th, 2010 at 6:57 am
I also do agree with your post in response to Kevin about expiring contracts, including RJ’s.
Francesco
April 8th, 2010 at 7:22 am
……and to Marcos on the problems associated with trying to keep the “core” together.
junierizzle
April 8th, 2010 at 8:32 am
You just want to turn the Spurs into a perennial playoff loser. That’s what you do when you insist, come hell or high water, to hold onto the big three. Drop the nostalgia, the glory days of the big three are dead. Let’s come to terms with that, and just appreciate the titles they got for us “in the day”. It’s like a spouse holding onto a partner because of what it “use to be”. Let’s move on!
SpurredOn
April 8th, 2010 at 9:08 am
Nice point about Parker. He’ll be fine in the next couple of weeks.
Dr. Who
April 8th, 2010 at 12:33 pm
Fair points. Nice post.
April 8th, 2010 at 1:13 pm
@BigJ
I’m in that same camp. I’d like to see Tony come off the bench and Hill start. Tony has lost a step either due to the nagging injury or not having his game legs back. Having him go up against the other teams second unit is a very favorable match up for the Spurs. It also gives Tony some burn without pushing him as hard to be 100%. It’ll help him find his shot, work on finishing, build a rapport with the second unit and get his legs back (if he’s not bothered by his Plantar Fasciitis). And Hill… he can keep on doing what he’s been doing with Manu and the rest of the starting unit.
April 8th, 2010 at 1:28 pm
What it bothers me most is that this 4 weeks off could have been a good time for Tony to just sit and eat well.
Instead, we got videos and photos all the time about his workouts and hill climbing activities and despite that should keep him in optimal shape, it definitively goes against Plantar Fasciatis recovery…
He’ll eventually get back to his old self but I doubt that it happens in time THIS season.
April 8th, 2010 at 1:45 pm
It’s way too early to decide whether TP belongs in the bench or not. Spurs still have 4 or 5 games left and TP has time to get his legs back (he just got back after a month of rest and played a b2b roadie)… or prove that he’s simply too banged up and unable to play at his 100%.
April 8th, 2010 at 1:57 pm
Tony’s plantar fasciitis was never going to heal with just a month of rest. It takes a lot longer to heal. I’ve had it for a couple of years and found a natural vitamin that controls it. But when I go a week without taking it, the pain returns. And, as a desk jockey, I am no where near as active as any athlete, so if rest worked, I’d have been cured a long time ago.
And for those calling to move Tony to the bench… I disagree. First, there is no reason to bench him. Manu’s situation was completely different. When Finley came to the Spurs, he could not produce unless he started. Manu can produce regardless of the situation. Bringing Manu off the bench allowed Finley to contribute and boosted the bench production.
Those calling for Hill to start because he’s playing better might want to consider a couple of reasons why starting Tony makes more sense. First, if he’s slowed down, playing with Manu will help Tony by giving him a back court partner that can relieve him during some possessions. Second, if Hill is better right now, his production off the bench makes the bench stronger.
Anyone discussing why any Spurs player needs to be traded… time and place. This is the team we have until July 1st. Root for them. All of them. Call for their heads after the season is over, if you must. But support all of them right now.
April 8th, 2010 at 2:44 pm
A back to back and 3rd game in 4 nights. The Suns were rested and ready and had Leon Wood on the payroll. No big deal. They can’t beat us in a series.
April 8th, 2010 at 2:57 pm
Manu is a top 5-10 player in the league.
April 8th, 2010 at 3:28 pm
we badly missed the 3 point shooting and defensive presence of george hill, he might have helped big time against phoenix last night. sad to say but parker’s only asset is to penetrate.
but.. parker is slow cause he isnt healthy
parker’s shooting is affected cause his hand just got injured. coach pop will definitly start the healthier point guard right? i personally wont start a 70% parker. i would rather start a 100% georgie
we are not parker haters. we just want george to start and parker to lead the 2nd unit.
April 8th, 2010 at 3:31 pm
i say start george hill. tony leading the 2nd unit. but jesse wont agree with me. here we debate a lot
April 8th, 2010 at 4:14 pm
Jim Henderson and Francesco,
I guess I have one question for you guys. Given how well we’ve been playing with Manu healthy and the growth of Hill since TPs been out, why do you think that we couldn’t compete right now if we added to that team a healthy TP? Is it because you don’t think he can return to his form from last year, even when healthy? Oops two questions.
It seems clear that this team has been playing great basketball for the last 20 games. Adding in TPs production from last year is no small thing. That means two talented guards on the floor at all times. Sure TDs best basketball is likely behind him, but we’ve just been given a taste of what just two of the big 3 can do.
My point is, if you’re desire to trade is because you don’t think there’s a good chance these guys will be healthy come next playoffs, then I understand. If you don’t think these guys are capable of playing at a high level when healthy right now ( and by high level I mean contenders), then I think you’re wrong.
At this point it all seems like a gamble to me. We’re not likely to get someone by trading or draft who can out produce Manu and TP when healthy, but we probably could get some guys who can do better than these guys when slowed down or injured. Either way you roll the dice, but I’d rather do it with the players who’ve already done so much for us.
April 8th, 2010 at 4:23 pm
Krista
April 8th, 2010 at 1:57 pm
I like your assessment of the TP - Hill starting situation come playoff time. If Tony can get his game legs back in time (which I expect), you start him for what ever minutes his health will allow him to contribute. If you have an 80-90% TP you start him. The guy has led us from the point to 3 titles for crying out loud. I love Hill, but he doesn’t have near the experience that TP does in the playoffs. I would think this would be obvious, but experience is important. Tony’s used to starting, deserves to start if he’s healthy enough to make a solid contribution, and Hill would do very well coming off the bench. His three point shots would give the team a big boost. That said, I’m all in favor of how Pop is taking his time to wean TP back into the line-up. There’s no rush at the moment. I just hope Hill’s ankle is okay; haven’t heard much about it (he may not be 100% going into the playoffs either?).
Krista, I understand your interest in being a fan first, and I appreciate the sentiment, but I, and I’m sure others can handle giving support for the team now, AND discussing future trade prospects at the same time. I root for the team just as hard as anyone else does during their games. At the same time, part of being a fan for me is expressing concern about the long-term prospects for the team. And there’s nothing anti-Spur-fan about that.
April 8th, 2010 at 4:58 pm
I think as long as you guys in Texas keep letting Laker fans invade your arena and make the Spurs feel like they’re on the road at their own home court then we’ll never get through the playoffs! Spurs fans are too complacent and spoiled. We don’t have that “hunger” to get the guys going!
April 8th, 2010 at 6:01 pm
bduran
April 8th, 2010 at 4:14 pm
Thanks for the measured and respectful comments. I’d be glad to answer the questions that you posed. I’ll start by quoting you:
“I guess I have one question for you guys. Given how well we’ve been playing with Manu healthy and the growth of Hill since TPs been out, why do you think that we couldn’t compete right now if we added to that team a healthy TP? Is it because you don’t think he can return to his form from last year, even when healthy?”
You know, my concern has really nothing to do with the guards that we have. When healthy, they are a really solid three-guard rotation. I don’t doubt that they can all be healthy again at the same time, for awhile. I do have some concerns about Manu’s durability over time with his age (he’s 33 yrs. old) and injury issues, and even for TP, the plantar fasciitis situation can be a chronic type of issue that “could” plague him on & off for the rest of his career. Plus, both of these guys have an aggressive, relentless style of play (something I’m sure we all admire about them) that only naturally makes them more at risk for injuries, and the basic wear & tear on the body that comes with playing at a high level for a long time. So, while I don’t really consider health/age a determining factor with them, it is certainly something that I consider when weighing the medium to long-term (3-8 years) value of a player.
But despite all the nuances surrounding the age/health issues, I’m not unhappy in the least with our 3-guard rotation. My problem actually is that we’re a bit too guard focused, perhaps even overly talented at the guard spot when compared to the front court. This represents an imbalance that I don’t think is healthy for the franchise over the short/med./long term.
Having big, tall, talented, and “not too old” guys on the front line is absolutely critical to winning a championship. They are crucial in reducing the frequency of easy baskets (lay-ups, dunks, etc.) by using their length and agility to protect the rim, alter shots, and getting on the glass, both the offensive & defensive boards. They of course do much more, but I’m not presenting a masters thesis here. You get the picture, I assume.
Now, lets take a look at our front line. We have a super-talented PF that is aging as we speak. He is not the same player anymore, even when he has bursts of very productive games. He has a deteriorating, chronic knee problem that limits his playing time, and prevents him from truly dominating a game, as in the past. And don’t get me wrong, TD is a savvy veteran in the low post that still does all the intangibles that led to the nickname, “the big fundamental”. And that’s one of the reasons I would never think of trading him.
But the problem is, at his age, he needs some help, preferably from someone considerably younger and athletic that can help him protect the rim. The FO knew this was an issue, that’s why they went out and signed McDyess. It was a gamble, as I’m sure they knew, because Dice is 36 years old, and is also in considerable decline himself, plus he’s just 6′9″, never was a big shot-blocker, and does not possess the versatility of being a good 15-18 foot jump shooter, AND a solid low post scorer. And this year has proven that he is simply not enough to help TD sufficiently.
Okay, now lets take a brief look at our other “bigs”. As you know, Matt Bonner is a 3 point shooting specialist. We use him almost exclusively to hit threes and spread the floor, which helps open up our driving lanes to the hoop. Bonner is NOT an inside presence, although he does chip in now and then with a score or rebound near the rim. But he is NOT athletic, does not block shots, and cannot defend effectively in the interior.
DeJuan Blair is a 6′6″, twenty year old rookie that has at least partially hit the proverbial “rookie wall”. He’ll continue to make some contribution this year, but it’s unlikely to be significant. Personally, I think he’s a great prospect, but it will take him at least until age 23 or 24 to even begin to learn how to more effectively and consistently produce on both ends, given his “height disability”. It will take a lot of time, dedication, coaching, and desire to learn how to be crafty in terms of fully using his girth to his advantage, developing a range of ball & head fakes, improving his ball-handling skills, and mastering the mid-range jumper. He’s going to need all these types of skills to mature at some point to be able to play a more substantial role on our team in a playoff atmosphere, against taller, often considerably taller opponents. I think he can do it one day, and become one of those VERY unique guys that can be effective as mainly a power guy, around the rim, and maybe out to about 17-18 feet. But it will take time, and he will of course never be able to overcome a teams need for the special thing that HEIGHT brings.
Lastly, Ian Mahinmi. Now here’s a guy with HEIGHT, and ATHLETICISM. Too bad he doesn’t have near the basketball instincts of a guy 4 years his junior (Blair). He has some unique skills, like his knack at pretty effective defense against the pick and roll out on the perimeter (not particularly common for 7 footers). He also seems to be able to get the ball in the hole (mostly against inferior competition), has a decent shooting motion, and is not a bad shot-blocker. That said, he’s a mediocre at best defender in the paint, often gets lost on defensive rotations, seems a bit lost in both our defensive & offensive schemes, is turnover prone, and he’s a foul machine as well, committing a foul about every 3-4 minutes of court time, and again, often against inferior competition. More minutes for him would put the opponent in the penalty early on a regular basis, leading to an unacceptable and unnecessary number of free throws for the opposition.
Well, that’s it for the front court. I hope you can appreciate the value of having a STRONG front line, and at least realize that we simply MUST make our front court significantly stronger to effectively go up against LA (Gasol, Bynum, Odom), Cleveland (Shaq, Igauskas, Varejao), Orlando (Howard, Gortat, Lewis), Dallas (Haywood, Novitski, Dampier), and even Denver (Nene, Martin, Anderson, Anthony), or Boston (Perkins, Garnett, Wallace), although the Celts may be experiencing a similar problem of aging & declining players. Finding a way to build/acquire important parts to strengthen our front line should be a top priority of this franchise at this time, in my view. I hope I made myself clear. Let me know if you have any other questions or comments.
April 8th, 2010 at 8:01 pm
TP just is not ready yet, he is rushing back bc GH is hurt, but this will hurt us for the playoffs. We need to just rest TP and GH until they r ready r until the playoffs. Temple is a good player he is not ready yet, remember he has not been with the team for a full month yet… But, he can hold his own until TP and GH get back, remember we r already in the playoffs… I like Temple, he has great length and seems to understand the game (high basketball IQ) I can see him being a Spur for a while, but his time wasnt suppose to start until next season… Rest Parker and Hill for the Playoffs… The way the Lakers have been playing I think we can take them in a 7 game series if it had to come to that… Go Spurs Go!!!
April 8th, 2010 at 8:04 pm
Krista, I think a missing feature to your points is how the other players in the rotation are playing with Tony. The greatest example may be RJ, but Manu might not be far behind. TP’s game flows best when he has the ball in his hands (big shocker there). With out him at 100% this may not play well for Manu right now.
Having the ball in Manu’s hands has been the fortunate side of Midas’ touch lately. The over all strength of this ball club has been his creativity for the last month. Hill, maybe due to his age/willingness to defer, has been a good balance for Manu’s skill’s of late. My concern is that a less than 100% Tony may take away the focus on Manu as TP tries to play like he usually does. Given his injuries I sense this will be a disadvantage.
RJ has bluntly noted in the press he told Pop he wants to be on the floor with Manu as much as possible. I wonder if the statement would now be amplified to add “and with Manu running the offense”? Especially with the success they’ve had during Tony’s absence.
You do raise a good point about the difference between the second and first units for Tony. I would still rather see the opposing team’s back up’s deal with a slower Tony than their starters.
April 9th, 2010 at 4:54 am
If there are no more injuries, TP will be starting in the playoffs. It would have been nice to keep him on the bench as a strike player for the playoffs and bring him along slowly, but GH is injured and likely won’t regain the same level of play for the rest of the season unless the injury is ONLY a slight ligament strain. As most ballers know, once you roll an ankle hard, you somewhat weaken the strength and integrity of the of joint permantly…..his ankle likely won’t be 100% for 2 months or more, though with top notch medical personnel at disposal, he’ll likely play within 10-14 days….but will his confidence level be the same? I really hope so, because he has been reminding me on a young Jason Terry, but with better D.
April 9th, 2010 at 5:44 am
Jim,
Thanks for the response. I do want to respond to a couple of things. You say we may be a little to guard focused (and I don’t like to see 3 guards on the floor at the same time either), but the fact remains we have been playing some excellent basketball for the last 20 games with only two good guards, one of whom is still learning. So I still think adding a healthy Parker makes this team really good.
Secondly about the bigs. I agree that I would like a better frontline. As Spurs fan we have been spoiled with some amazing frontline play (anything with a younger Duncan or Robinson in it really), but I think you underestimate our curretn lineup. Bonner is not a great defender, but he’s not bad either. Blair has definite shortcomings (pun intended), but is still a rookie and could become decent as well. McDyess does look age has taken it’s toll and Ian looks like he may not pan out, but a lineup of TD, Bonner, Blair, McDyess, and Ian in reserve is pretty good, just not elite like a Gasol, Bynum.
Now, looking at the teams you listed I think you overestimate some of them. Shaq and Big Z have played poorly. Varejao is good but that’s it. Lucky for them they have Lebron.
Orlando stars Lewis at the 4, Howard is amazing, but if you start Lewis at the 4 you are not going to have a frontline to compare to what we’ve had over the years.
Blair does well against the Celtics front court, I’m not worried about them. I am worried about the front courts of the Lakers with Bynum, Denver, and Dallas. However, none of those teams looks like threats to win it right now soit doesnt look like (at least in the case of Denver and Dallas) their bigs are not enough.
I guess I’m saying, while I’d love to shore up our front court, let’s not throw out the baby with the bath water. At this point I would keep Manu,TD, Hill, Blair and TP if he takes the summer off. Anyone else is fair game.
Also, do we have a team option on McDyess for his third year? Does that make him a potential expiring contract?
April 9th, 2010 at 6:45 am
I agree with bduran Jim. Our frontline is not the best, but only one team has the best, and a couple others have very good ones. Cleveland has only Varejao, Shaq and Z are no better than McDyess at this point in their careers. Orlando plays only one big at a time. Outside of LA with Gasol and Bynum, there aren’t any other intimidating frontlines for the Spurs. Boston’s KG and Perkins is just not what it was, KG evidently is declining faster than TD.
April 9th, 2010 at 12:16 pm
bduran
April 9th, 2010 at 5:44 am
Marcos
April 9th, 2010 at 6:45 am
For the life of me, I don’t know how you guys think our front line, with it’s age & height issues, and other various handicaps, ONLY has a problem matching up with a healthy LA front line? Lets focus on age & height, and agree that the “younger” you are the more physical & athletic you tend to be in the interior, and the “taller” you are the more likely you are to block/alter shots, and rebound effectively “against other TALL opponents”. So lets take a peak at our front line in comparison to other elite teams (only starters or rotation players are included).
We have TWO interior players 6′9″ or above. One is 34, and is 6′11″; the other is 36, and is 6′9″. They both are clearly off their prime years. These are not opinions, they are facts.
Dallas has TWO interior players 6′9″ or above. One is 30, and is 7′0″; the other is 34 and is 6′11″. Plus they have a superstar 7′0″ player that can be effective on the interior. TWO of the three are clearly still in their prime.
Cleveland has FOUR interior players 6′9″ or above. One is 21 (Hickson), and is 6′9″; one is 27, and is 6′11″; one is 34, and is 7′3; and one is 7′1″, 325pds., and is 38 (Shaq). Plus they have an all-star that has an inside/outside game, Jamison, that is 33, and 6′9″. TWO of the four are young & athletic, and/or in their prime. One, Shaq, in limited minutes can still be a dominant physical force. And they also have James, a 25 yr. old, 6′8″, 250 pd., athletic phenom!
Orlando has THREE interior players 6″9′ or above. One is 24, and is 6′9″ (Bass); one is 24, and is 6′11″ (Howard, an athletic monster); and one is 26, and is 6′11″ (Gortat). They also have an all-star that has an inside/outside game, the 30 yr. old, 6′10″, Lewis. ALL of them are in their prime.
Denver has FOUR interior players 6′9″ or above. One is 24, and is 7′0″ (Petro); one is 27, and is 6′11″ (Nene), one is 31, and is 6′11″ (Andersen); and one is 6′9”, and is 32. THREE of the four are young and/or in their prime. Plus they have Anthony, a 25 yr. old, 6′8″ 230 pd., superstar, that has an excellent inside/outside game.
On balance, even Boston has an advantage over us (e.g., Perkins is a talented 6′10″ center that is only 25!), but because they have some aging issues as well, I won’t count them.
And I think you know what LA has: YOUNG, TALL, TALENTED, ATHLETIC guys on the front line, and in their prime.
Now, tell me again, how do we match-up effectively against ANY of these front lines?
April 9th, 2010 at 1:53 pm
Jim,
Here’s the problem with your argument. It’s entirely based around height, age, and perceived athelticism. Sure I want young, tall, athletic players … who are also good. Right now Blair is better than Shaq or Big Z despite the height difference. TD is still really good. I’m basing this on production metrics which I prefer over labeling players as tall, athletic or whatever. I don’t care how tall or atheltic you are, you need to rebound the damn ball.
Look at Bargnani, he’s 24, tall, athletic … and sucks. This is my point about front lines.
I know that TD isn’t getting any better. As for the rest, Bonner is probably peaking right now, McDyess is aging, and Blair is going to improve. Ian is probably not going to contribute much to us ever. So yeah, standing pat probably means a decline next year, but I don’t think we need big changes to maintain or improve on what we have now, which is decent.
Once again, I have to point out how you overate other front lines. Big Z and Shaq are not playing well this year. Lewis is not a good 4, yet Cleveland and Orlando are the two best teams in the league despite not having the two best front courts. You can keep pointing out the tall players on these teams, but it doesn’t change this.
April 9th, 2010 at 2:56 pm
bduran
April 9th, 2010 at 1:53 pm
ALL of the TALL guys I mentioned can PLAY. They are ALL playing in an elite team’s rotation, for crying out loud! And, HEIGHT and ATHLETICISM are B-Ball traits that have “certain” value in an of themselves, which often demands consideration of a player with these traits despite other known weaknesses.
Why do you think tall guys with limited skills have still made important contributions to top teams over the years? Why do you think we’ve kept Mahinmi for so long (though he has NOT made our ROTATION, and may not ever work)? And to say that Blair has more value to us, RIGHT NOW, heading into the playoffs, than would Shaq or “Z” is ridiculous.
And by the way, Bargnani does not “suck”. He’s one of the best shooting PERIMETER “bigs” in the league today, but he is NOT an INTERIOR player, which IS the subject of our discussion. You are either giving indications that you have no idea what the point is, or your NOT truly reading & listening carefully, or with sufficient comprehension.
Look, I don’t mind spending some time presenting a detailed analysis of the weaknesses of our front court if people on here want to be reasonable, and with an OPEN mind, consider the facts as presented. But I’m not going to waste my time if people just want to stubbornly hold on to their own preconceived notions. No way, I certainly have better things to do than that.
April 9th, 2010 at 11:13 pm
Jim Henderson
April 9th, 2010 at 2:56 pm
Jim, you and I have had our disagreements, but overall I think we see the same thing. The past month not withstanding, it is obvious that our team has fatal flaws. I’m afraid with losing a number of easy games to knock us into 8th place, we will face the Lakers and those flaws will be on display to world in spite of the Spurs recent uptick and the casual fan’s recent euphoria.
My plight is simple: If any blogger suggests a fairly reasonable trade, there are 5 people who can dissect the trade and say it won’t work. Then if someone suggests we attempt to trade up in the draft, then another 5 say that won’t work. No matter what is suggested in the form of attempting to improve the team, there are always naysayers who know more. (or at least think they do) I find it very interesting to see that the people who deride trade suggestions the loudest have absolutely no solutions to offer of their own. You and I have even directly asked them for their opinion but of course our pleas for suggestions go unanswered. I’m sure this is due to their fear of their own arguments being rebuffed.
Jim Henderson
April 9th, 2010 at 2:56 pm
“Look, I don’t mind spending some time presenting a detailed analysis of the weaknesses of our front court if people on here want to be reasonable, and with an OPEN mind, consider the facts as presented. But I’m not going to waste my time if people just want to stubbornly hold on to their own preconceived notions. No way, I certainly have better things to do than that.”
Jimmy, my boy, I’m afraid at this point you are throwing your pearls before the proverbial swine. Everyone here has an opinion, however unfounded, and many are determined to stick with it irregardless of their ignorance. Most here fails to realize that with every trade suggestion, there comes an element of risk; with every draft pick comes an opportunity for downside. If there was a clear-cut, easy solution to improve this team that EVERYONE agreed upon, it probably would have been done by now.
P.S. Thank God the front office is made up of people infinitely more capable than many who so carelessly give their opinions on this blog.
April 10th, 2010 at 12:18 am
The game is over! We should move on and forget it. Parker returned in a back-to-back game situation and we have to understand that he isn’t still that much 100% well. Look at his minutes. . . Pop didn’t want to push Parker to play as the starting point guard because he knew that Tony is still in a “recovering” stage, meaning, Manu is still in control of the Spurs’ plays most of the time. No one should be blamed on the loss against the Phoenix and even in Memphis earlier tonight. It’s just it’s not their night - simple as that. This is NBA and it happens all the time.
April 10th, 2010 at 3:16 am
Hobson13
April 9th, 2010 at 11:13 pm
Hobson,
I appreciate an honest debate about the issues that a basketball team I happen to enjoy confronts as an organization in order to be successful. But for me, those debates lose their appeal if most participants prefer to craft their comments to merely fit preconceived notions about the issue being debated, rather than presenting data, or at least some basic logic, to support ones “opinion”. Opinions rashly uttered with little forethought are not really useful when attempting to engage in a reasoned debate. It’s not that I’m looking for “agreement” about trades, etc. But I do need to see more of an effort to engage in reasoned, logical, and data-based opinions, as opposed to merely “opinions” that pop out of ones head from left field. Otherwise participating becomes less enjoyable for me.
I’m sure it’s unrealistic to expect all blog comments to be measured, reflective, reasonable, logical, respectful, well-thought out, and presented with data and careful research at times. But if I don’t start seeing a bit more of this type of commentary in the coming weeks, I’ll simply need to cut back my time. The time/reward ratio will be unsatisfactory for me.
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