Friday, April 9th, 2010...6:47 am
No Manu, No renew? No problem. Manu Ginobili signs extension with the San Antonio Spurs
Elusive as he’s been on the court since March, it was in the San Antonio Spurs best interests to lock up Manu Ginobili before he was allowed to euro step his way through free agency, lest he escape the Spurs like so many would be defenders.
The soon-to-be 33-year old Argentine guard signed a three year contract extension. The Spurs, sticking with their policy of not disclosing such details, did not comment on the contract’s worth. But Jeff McDonald of the Express News is reporting a deal worth $38.9 million for Ginobili.
The deal, which includes a trade kicker, is scheduled to pay Ginobili approximately $11.8 million next season, $12.9 million in 2011-12 and $14.1 million in 2012-13. It is a hefty but necessary toll for a player who will be 36 at deal’s end, especially in light of the $10 million luxury tax bill the Spurs have coming due this summer.
This extension probably ensures that Ginobili finishes his career with the Spurs-or at least the last of his best years.
Gregg Popovich offered this comment, “It is quite obvious how important Manu has been to our program. It is a great feeling to know that one of the best players in the world will continue to be a Spur.”
Terms of the deal do not come without risks. Already paying roughly $10 million in luxury tax this year, every dollar given to Manu Ginonbili will have to be matched in tax payments. And for a guard on the wrong side of 30 who has already proven to be injury prone, there is no telling what Ginobili will look like at the end of the next season, let alone the end of his new contract.
But understand this is a deal that had to be done.
Financially, the potential amount of money the Spurs would have lost at the gate had they lost Ginobili, the city’s most popular player, without making any other key additions (even had his contract expired, the Spurs were still over the salary cap) would have made just as significant an impact as the luxury tax payments Spurs owner Peter Holt will have to endure.
Or, as Jeff McDonald of the San Antonio Express-News put it:
Barring some payroll gymnastics between now and then, the Spurs will be luxury-tax payers again next season. Every dollar they offer Ginobili must be paid twofold.
On the other hand, if the Spurs allow Ginobili to leave, they can brace for an inevitable backlash at the box office. As one group of Spurs season-ticket holders has put it: “No Manu, no renew.”
From a basketball perspective, even taking into account Ginobili’s age and history, this is a sound move by the R.C. Buford, Gregg Popovich and the rest of the Spurs front office.
Manu Ginobili, along with Tim Duncan and Tony Parker are and always were the championship core, and even if it proves itself not to be a championship core moving forward this was always the right move.
Right now, name five players in the NBA who are playing better basketball or are more impactful players than Manu Ginobili. There aren’t five. There may not even be three. As Popovich said, Ginobili is Kobe Bryant and Michael Jordan without the otherworldly athleticism.
Before Johnny Ludden and Adrian Wojnarowski broke news of the impending deal, Kelly Dwyer tried to set that the value for a player who could be every bit as good as Kobe Bryant, just not for as long:
A guy who, per-minute and when healthy, is just as good as Kobe Bryant and Brandon Roy. The problem with that is this is per-minute, and when healthy. And history tells us that a 33-year old Manu might play 65 games, he’s not going to be able to play a Kobe or Roy-level of minutes, and there’s certainly no guarantee that he’ll be healthy. Whether that means dragging his legs through games, or missing them altogether. That’s not even factoring in the expected drop off because he’ll be a year older.
And he is not worth the figures we’re tossing around. Even Manu at his best — a Kobe for 31 minutes per game — isn’t worth that sort of money.
The Spurs, however, have never been overly concerned about the regular season and it’s not Ginobili’s job to be that guy over the first 82 games. Even as he ages, we’ve already seen in glimpses this season of how a diminished Manu Ginobili can still be a key piece to a contending team.
In my mind, a further aged Ginobili is as valuable as this season’s Jason Kidd. An extremely intelligent player whose sense of how to make the right play at the right time can still fuel a contending team.
Earlier in the season, before it became apparent that Manu Ginobili was still capable of being what we’ve seen the past month, I wrote that even as a role player he was more valuable to the Spurs than most.
Offensively, even without huge scoring number Ginobili keeps the Spurs system in place. As so many of you have pointed out, Tony Parker is not a true point guard. Parker, and for that matter, the Spurs, are at their best when he can concentrate on what he does best: which is to score at an efficient rate. Pairing Ginobili’s playmaking abilities from the shooting guard position with Parker’s scoring abilities keeps the Spurs situation from devolving into something similar to what the Warriors experience with Monta Ellis (not to say that Parker is anywhere near as oblivious as Ellis can be).
So if Manu Ginobili cannot be what he is currently for an entire season, it’s Gregg Popovich’s job to limit Ginobili’s minutes and workload so come playoff time he can be that top-5 NBA player.
Because you can win a series or two with a player like that. If you pair him with an effective Tim Duncan and a restored Tony Parker you can even win a championship.
And statistics, highlights and contracts aside, hasn’t that always been the value of Manu Ginobili?
69 Comments
April 9th, 2010 at 7:00 am
Glad it is done, I’m happy to know Manu will remain a spurs.
April 9th, 2010 at 7:01 am
Great article here, except for this:
“And he is not worth the figures we’re tossing around. Even Manu at his best — a Kobe for 31 minutes per game — isn’t worth that sort of money.”
I have to disagree. If he’s not worth ~$13mil, even when Kobe gets $30mil (I know you can argue that he’s not worth that either), and he’s playing at the same level as the Mamba, then what is he worth? I think we owe him every penny.
April 9th, 2010 at 7:17 am
i’m sure the phones were ringing at the at&t center when news broke that manu resigned.
do you guys think we can overcome our front court deficiency to win a championship?
i think we have a deep enough back court and some versatile bigs that can offset some of that lack of height and athleticism, but still not sold that we can compete with l.a. and a healthy andrew bynum.
April 9th, 2010 at 7:20 am
Agree with GMT. IF we are paying almost $15M to RJ, how can we not reward Manu. The last 6 years he was arguably the best contract in the entire NBA (obviously way underpaid). Look at all the salaries in NBA rosters that are at or above the reported new deal for Manu. He is better than most of those guys. Look here http://hoopshype.com/salaries.htm
Or try it the other way around, who is better than Manu and is being paid less? Rookies (or players on rookies salaries), obviously don’t count.
April 9th, 2010 at 7:26 am
OK, we have a team in place and should not have any other concerns besides winning games. Let’s get Hill back in place quickly, and completely focus on getting a good first round seed. Then we can worry about the first round of playoffs.
April 9th, 2010 at 7:34 am
[...] 48 Minutes of Hell talks about Manu’s new contract extension. [...]
April 9th, 2010 at 7:35 am
I’m with GMT and Marcos - he’s definitely worth it. And as pointed out by Marcos, he’s been woefully underpaid for his entire career. You have to reward a guy for the job he is doing. (Sorry, just channeled my inner Hubie Brown there)
Everybody seems to be concerned about Manu being old when his contract is up. A few years ago, Mark Cuban decided not to resign Steve Nash, who was playing at a high level, so that he could pay Eric Freakin’ Dampier! His major concern was contract duration thinking that Nash couldn’t hold up. In retrospect, it certainly seems that he blew it. Hell, he pretty much admitted as much when he traded Devin Harris for Jason Kidd. I’d even say that Nash’s bad back would be a lot more worrisome than an ankle injury. You don’t magically get over a bad back, although Nash seems to manage. I think Manu’s ankle is an injury in the past. His style that makes him “injury prone” really leads to nicks and bruises that tend to only take him out for a couple of games here and there. I’ll take 70 games of Manu and the playoffs for 13-mil a season.
April 9th, 2010 at 7:41 am
Been saying it all year…Spurs never did have leverage in dealing with Ginnobli. Thier fan base is probably 65% hispanic and those are all staunch G supporters.
Besides, with the crap on this roster, his play certainly stood head and shoulders above everyone else.
Then, Manu comes out and plays out of his mind for the past few months. Brilliant on his part.
Spurs FO lost again. G ran the table on these negotiations. Spurs couldnt tell him shyt. If he were not a good hearted guy, he could have held the Spurs hostage.
Congrats to G-man….Putting up with this coach and the laughable supporting cast surrounding him justifies every cent.
April 9th, 2010 at 7:46 am
@GMT - it’s not clear (I’m not sure if the tag is missing or something), but that part of the article is actually quoting Kelly Dwyer. From “A guy who…” to “isn’t worth that sort of money.” is all quoted. I’m pretty sure that the 48MoH guys probably disagree as well.
April 9th, 2010 at 7:50 am
Not sure about Ballhog’s rant, but for the money you couldn’t not get a more proven commodity than Manu Ginobili.
And for those doubters, not everyone is going to be able to sign Lebron, D-Wade, and Bosh this summer. Ginobili would be a nice consolation for a team with cap space who didn’t land a “big” star.
We’ve seen time and time again teams overpaying talent and there’s no reason to think someone wouldn’t have thrown $15 mil at Manu.
Easy decision for the FO to make.
April 9th, 2010 at 8:06 am
Ballhog, what will ever make you happy?
April 9th, 2010 at 8:12 am
How does this effect the re-siging of George Hill?
April 9th, 2010 at 8:17 am
I beleive George Hill’s contract option was picked up long ago
April 9th, 2010 at 8:18 am
a little off topic but are there still 48 min. podcasts?
April 9th, 2010 at 8:25 am
@John-Somehow the quote tags didn’t come through when published, but yeah, the not worth the money line was Dwyer. It’s been fixed already.
And yes, I do disagree with Dwyer. Manu Ginobili might not be a top-3 NBA player the entire season, but realistically the Spurs don’t need that. If our goal through the end of the Tim Duncan’s career is championships (and whether it’s realistic or not, it should be) we only need Manu to be that guy come spring/summer.
And sure, maybe if they’d done a deal at the beginning of the season it might have been cheaper. But that would’ve been a huge risk (I mean, we all saw him at the beginning of the year). But if you think this deal was a little much, I ask, where would that money have been better spent?
April 9th, 2010 at 8:44 am
The risk is still there if Manu insists on playing for his National team. So far I’ve heard nothing about his plans for this offseason (other than his interest in playing for the NT before his contract extension), and I think we all know too well how his offseason ventures can affect this team. 13 mil is worth every penny if he ensures that he stays healthy. It’s not when he gets crippled in the international games and blows the whole season with an injury or two.
April 9th, 2010 at 8:49 am
@ David G
We were actually supposed to record another podcast last night, but both Graydon and I dropped the ball on it. We’ve got more coming soon though. We had to take a brief hiatus from them because of some other personal / professional conflicts. Basically, Graydon moved recently and I had a big work event that sucked up most of my free time.
April 9th, 2010 at 9:02 am
@Ian
Last I heard, MANU wasn’t set on playing for the National Team.
A lot as been said about Manu’s age, but he is only 1 year older than KOBE. Antawn Jamison is 34, Steve Nash is 36, hell even Juwan Howard is still getting it done.
And since POP compared him to Jordan, I will too.
JOrdan was still winning champion ships at 35 and he was still balling when he came back, the second time.
My point is 32 is not 92.
This new contract makes up for the pay cut he took when he first decided to stay with the SPURS.
Injuries are part of the game. You can’t guarantee a player won’t or will be injured.
CONGRATS! MANU!
April 9th, 2010 at 9:19 am
@junierizzle
I agree with you that injuries are part of the game, but at least one could TRY to reduce his chances of injuring himself. Playing in international games during the offseason rather than resting and/or shaping up for the upcoming season does not help with the matter.
Manu may be younger than those players you mention, but you’re ignoring his style of play and his history of serious injuries - the guy’s injury prone and we all know it. Jamison and Howard just never were (and still isn’t) that good - comparing them to Manu is rather inappropriate.
I hope you’re right about Manu not playing for NT this offseason… Knowing Manu and his fierce competiveness, it’ll be hard for him to pass on the chance to play for his National team.
April 9th, 2010 at 9:38 am
Manu might not play this summer in the World Championships, but it’s a mortal lock he plays in the Olympics in 2012.
April 9th, 2010 at 9:39 am
glad to see manu locked up, hope to see him a retire a spur, but i was also curious what team’s would have courted him this offseason and how much the market price would have been for him. i think we overpaid by a million or two but ginobli is worth it
April 9th, 2010 at 9:45 am
Believe me when I say this, the Spurs will regret this decision. I have always been surprised at the obsession of Spurs fans with Ginobli - sure he’s talented, but he’s prone to making many, many mistakes and turnovers at very inopportune times.
Regardless, when his body breaks down next season, as it surely will, all the fans will lament and we would be truly screwed for salary cap purposes. I was hoping the third-year was a team-option so that we had an early out, but I guess we’re not that lucky…
April 9th, 2010 at 10:09 am
@JIMBO
I guess the Fo should have contacted you. Since you seem to know the future.
Didn’t you read the article??
They had to resign him.
April 9th, 2010 at 10:18 am
JIMBO-
Although i agree he makes plenty of mistakes/turnovers, for every one of those you name, i can name at least one HUGE play that has shifted the game completely in our favor.
April 9th, 2010 at 10:26 am
So does this mean we’ll have to pay Splitter with HEB “Buddy” bucks?
April 9th, 2010 at 10:31 am
Players make mistakes. With Manu’s game, there is a higher possibility for them, but often times a higher reward. He’s only made one mistake that really was tough for the Spurs (the and one on Dirk that gave him the game tying free throw to give Mavs the momentum in game 7).
But Timmy has made a decent amount of those too. Heck, Robert Horry in 05 covered up a few of Duncan’s big mistakes that could have cost the Spurs a championship that year.
April 9th, 2010 at 10:35 am
Manu has only been serioulsy injured once, what’s all the talk?
Seems like he is always broken. Hos injuries have always been bumps or bruises, a twisted ankle or something. He will miss one game here and two there, but except for last year he was never a liability because of injuries.
April 9th, 2010 at 10:46 am
Marcos - he was seriously injured when he first came to Spurs - which is why he fell so low in the draft, remember that? Finally, ask yourself, why is it that Popovich manages Ginobli’s minutes such that he never even plays 30 mins/game - any chance Pop knows more than you and I do?
Fact is that his playing style is the reason he is prone to injury not to mention his desire to play for his country in the summer. He is of course almost 33 on top of that. Does not a good combination make…
The point I am making is not that Ginobli isn’t a great player - he most certainly is. But he is not worth almost $40 million when he is 33 years old. And this ridiculous No Manu No Renew policy will come back to bite us.
April 9th, 2010 at 11:15 am
@JIMBO He is worth every penny. He is not injury prone. He just had bad luck last year. It could of happened to anyone.
@MARCOS
Good point.
“manu has only been serioulsy injured once, what’s all the talk?
Seems like he is always broken. Hos injuries have always been bumps or bruises, a twisted ankle or something. He will miss one game here and two there, but except for last year he was never a liability because of injuries.”
April 9th, 2010 at 11:25 am
@ Those Against the Manu signing,
From John Hollinger:
Pete (San Antonio)
I love Ginobili but the $$$ on his contract are absurd. He’ll be playing 1/2 seasons for 3 more years. At what point will the Spurs stop hanging on to yesterday and start anew?
John Hollinger (1:59 PM)
I don’t think it’s that bad a deal. Spurs weren’t going to be under cap next year, so if Ginobili walked they were basically an empty shell. This will cost them some tax $$, especially if they want Splitter too, but they’re still going to be well under cap for new CBA in 2011 and Manu and Hill are only players under contract in 2012. Even if Manu falls apart physically, the contract won’t be a killer cap-wise.
April 9th, 2010 at 11:28 am
@ BALLHOG
Are you even a Spurs fan? A name like BALLHOG doesn’t necessarily lend itself to the Spurs team concept now does it?
@ JIMBO
You may be right that the Spurs overpaid, especially with the possible lockout, the renegotiation of the CBA and no mention of intl play, but I have to take issue with your assessment of Ginobili. Yes I’ve seen him make costly turnovers and I’ve seen him foul at the wrong time, but the way he has played since the All-Star break, and pre-2008 playoffs, this guy adds a dimension of competitiveness, court vision and the ability wreak havoc in unconventional ways that is simply unlike any player I’ve (we’ve?) ever witnessed.
Dude is NASTY.
April 9th, 2010 at 11:36 am
JIMBO check your facts, he was drafted in 1999. He had a left sprained ankle in 2002, but was playing very well until he landed on Yao Ming’s foot and re-sprained the same ankle. He lost maybe 10 days or 2 weeks I don’t remember exactly.
But that injury was 3 YEARs AFTER the draft in which he was taken
April 9th, 2010 at 11:46 am
Jimbo,
even with Manu not playing great (for him) in the first half of the season he had a WP48 of .262. Average is .100. He was also shooting something like 40% (so not great). The reason he is good is because even when he’s not 100% he finds way to help the team. When he is healthy, well, look out. I think if you look at his cost per win produced over the last few years you’ll find that he’s always been a good deal. Going forward he won’t be the amazing deal he has been, but is there any player (not on a rookie contract) of his caliber making as little money? I can’t think of one (of course, doesn’t mean there isn’t since I don’t know everyone player’s salary off the top of my head).
April 9th, 2010 at 12:20 pm
hollinger has us ranked as the best chance of making the finals in the west. http://espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/playoffodds
April 9th, 2010 at 1:49 pm
This whole “bad decisions” thing reminds me of a player from another sport: Brett Favre. Is Ginobili the Brett Favre of basketball?
Seriously, in the NFL, Favre makes some boneheaded plays, but that recklessness also allows him to make plays that no one else can. Ginobili may be prone to bad decisions at time. Getting “greedy”, going for a little too much. But dang, when those gambles pay off… that’s what wins championships.
At least we don’t have the “is he retiring or not” drama with Ginobili, although I should probably keep my mouth shut on that…
April 9th, 2010 at 2:20 pm
Great call by the spurs. We have one of the best guard rotations in the league locked in next season.
I especially liked the point the author made regarding the playoff focus of spurs ball.
If Ginobli only gives you 65 games a year we don’t really care, so long as he is there in the playoffs.
Tiago is MLE or bust for us.
April 9th, 2010 at 2:26 pm
Here’s a guy that actually thinks it’s worthwhile to squarely look at BOTH the Pros & Cons of the deal:
http://www.projectspurs.com/2010-articles/april/pros-and-cons.html
“The NBA luxury tax is speculated to be at $61.2 million dollars. After the math is done the Spurs will be paying $15.5 million for being over the cap and an additional $9.4 million in luxury taxes. Spurs will be $4.7 million over the luxury-tax and an NBA team pays dollar-for-dollar over the luxury-tax line.”
“Grand total for the Spurs will be paying $24.9 million for being over the salary-cap and into the luxury-tax.”
“This will hamper the Spurs in retaining key role players such as Matt Bonner, or offer Tiago Splitter more than just the mid-level exception not to mention attracting a quality free-agent this summer to play for the team next season.”
You really think we’ve got a shot at winning a title over the next few years WITHOUT quickly & meaningfully improving our team outside of holding onto every member of the “big three”? Really?
I assume that most of you realize that our chances of winning a title this year, or in the next several years, WITHOUT making significant improvement to our front line is minimal, and at BEST a 5 to one shot. If you disagree with this assessment, use logic and data to support how you think we’re going to adequately match-up with the front lines of the elite teams in the league? You do realize how important “BIG” men are in basketball, right? We can’t effectively pursue titles with one aging, TALL superstar, and a flashy, however special, GUARD that’s heading out into the twilight. Can we?!
April 9th, 2010 at 2:52 pm
As i posted immediately above you.
Tiago is MLE or bust for us.
Regardless though. If we don’t have manu we can’t win a title even if we pick up Tiago.
George & Tony with who as your 3 guard rotation?
I agree theres pitfalls to this deal but there is also windfalls.
With the deal going up every season, if theres a lockout (and it appears imminent), it’s a no brainer you give him that extra year.
The other thing is, come the final year it’s an expiring and it’s one of only two contracts on the books.
I do feel confident that the front office can find the right kind of talented role players regardless, that the young guys are going to get better and that Manu can be effective enough then turn it on in the post season.
Still MLE or bust with tiago.
April 9th, 2010 at 3:04 pm
@Andrew McNeill
Thanks, looking forward to them
April 9th, 2010 at 3:10 pm
Bushka
April 9th, 2010 at 2:52 pm
“Still MLE or bust with tiago.”
Count on a bust then. There’s no way Splitter’s signing for just the MLE. Without someone like Splitter, we’re not competing for a title, with or without Manu. And again, if you disagree, explain how we “win the match-ups” against other elite teams as currently constructed, and with insufficient money to entice a “Splitter type” FA? How?
…..”I do feel confident that the front office can find the right kind of talented role players regardless…….”
We need a starter/top notch rotation big on the front line with TD. Those don’t come cheap. The days of lesser TALL guys is over in light of TD’s decent from dominant superstar to savvy, versatile big with some excellent nights. I think we’re stuck in a time-warp here.
April 9th, 2010 at 3:26 pm
I don’t really feel that we should count on a bust.
The spurs have splitters rights. One way or another if he wants to play in the NBA he’ll have to come through San Antonio. I’d suggest that we wait and see.
As presently constructed we don’t win the matchups. We may push them hard but I don’t think we win right now without TP healthy plus the rest of the guys playing well.
With regard to the front office quote, i’m talking about the rest of the roster not the splitter level big we need.
Guys like Bonner et al. The front office has an enviable record with getting talent that gels with talent.
Manu was a must have for us. There was not going to be another opportunity to bring a top quality guard into the fold in the near future.
Our assets are limited. Despite R.J’s improved play on the court he is still not a 14 million dollar machine. Not to forget that his expiring is less valuable than the expirings we traded away this season (it’s a fully guaranteed contract, and no ones desperate for cap space in 2011 like they are in 2010).
If we go the radical path and trade Parker to shore up our front line, it just shifts the hole round to the guard rotation.
In the step by step process that is required to elevate this team to that top plateau the signing of Ginobli is a pre requisite.
Now we get to wait and see how the rest of the movie plays out.
April 9th, 2010 at 3:28 pm
i think it is a good idea to trade tony parker while he still has value, tim duncan is old, we need a young big athletic next to tim. tony parker lover fans should accept that the big 3 cant win championship any longer. duncan will get older, slower next year and gino as well, parker will be 28-29.
trade parker while we can for a big or young athletic wing. hill can take over and hill is younger. he will be 24 next year.
gino can play the point, then hill shooting guard. or vice versa. this team proved that they can win without tony parker. if we can get a big man next to tim for parker like bynum or bosh.
pg- hill
sg- gino
sf- dick
pf- duncan
c- andrew bynum
or
pg- hill
sg- gino
sf- dick
pf- chris bosh
c- duncan
i think with this line up. we will win more championship for timmy.
April 9th, 2010 at 3:52 pm
K not to poke fun.
But you think George plus Manu is your championship guard rotation?
You also think that the people are going to pay a premium for TP as injured as he is right now?
You need depth mate, if you loose a george or a manu the season is done.
Keep TP keep George keep Manu add a quality big.
If we didn’t have all three guards right now we’d be playing Garret Temple & Curtis Jerrells with Manu when George & Tony are injured….That’ll bring the championships in.
April 9th, 2010 at 4:03 pm
[...] points per game in March and so far 25.2 in April - he even dropped 32 on Kobe and …No Manu, No renew? No problem. Manu Ginobili signs extension with the San …48 Minutes of Hell (blog)What Manu Ginobili's Extension Means For The San Antonio Spurs' [...]
April 9th, 2010 at 5:02 pm
@ Jimmy Henderson,
Get a clue man. You obviously have no idea how the salary cap works.
Even if we didn’t resign Manu we still couldn’t sign any free agents next year b/c we would still be over the cap.
The year after next RJ’s $15 mil albatross comes off the books and we could talk free agents.
It’s frustrating trying to have a rational conversation about player acquisitions with people who don’t understand the basics of salary caps and contracts.
Just get some perspective and learn
April 9th, 2010 at 6:22 pm
Bushka
April 9th, 2010 at 3:26 pm
Fair enough, but I don’t think Ginobli was irreplaceable at his age, not at the expense of leaving a big hole on the front line. We would have a better chance of challenging for title in my estimation in the coming years, with a slightly weaker back court, and a more powerful, preferably younger front line, particular from a defensive standpoint, which is critical to winning championships.
spursrocks
April 9th, 2010 at 3:28 pm
I agree with your central point, but lets be realistic, we’re NOT going to be able to get Bynum or Bosh for Tony Parker. Young, talented “bigs” like that are too hard to come by, and therefore, very difficult and expensive to acquire.
Bushka
April 9th, 2010 at 3:52 pm
“Keep TP keep George keep Manu add a quality big.”
Don’t have the money anymore, unless we have some magic trick up our sleeve. MLE is not going to attract a talented enough big to fill our needs.
We could have considered picking up the extra quality guard as part of a sign & trade for Manu, along with some left over to lure a solid big to add to the MLE. But now we’ve locked up a lot of money, and are now in a pickle. We will probably have to wait & see what we can get for RJ’s expiring at next February’s trade deadline. Meanwhile, the clock is ticking on our aging team.
April 9th, 2010 at 6:45 pm
VP of Common Sense
April 9th, 2010 at 5:02 pm
You have no idea what you’re talking about.
Did you even bother to go to the following link, and read the pertinent portions that I quoted for you in a previous comment on this thread? Here it is again. Try to learn something this time, instead of being a know-it-all that gets a perverse thrill out of delivering puerile quips:
Here’s a guy that actually thinks it’s worthwhile to squarely look at BOTH the Pros & Cons of the deal:
http://www.projectspurs.com/2010-articles/april/pros-and-cons.html
“The NBA luxury tax is speculated to be at $61.2 million dollars. After the math is done the Spurs will be paying $15.5 million for being over the cap and an additional $9.4 million in luxury taxes. Spurs will be $4.7 million over the luxury-tax and an NBA team pays dollar-for-dollar over the luxury-tax line.”
“Grand total for the Spurs will be paying $24.9 million for being over the salary-cap and into the luxury-tax.”
“This will hamper the Spurs in retaining key role players such as Matt Bonner, or offer Tiago Splitter more than just the mid-level exception not to mention attracting a quality free-agent this summer to play for the team next season.”
Get a grip, VP!
April 9th, 2010 at 7:45 pm
We basically have to wait.
You can’t trade Tony injured. You get no value back, and you can’t trade away 1/3 of your guard rotation without getting back a good guard to fill the slot (which has to happen since we cannot get a free agent big outside of the MLE).
I don’t think we’ll have issues holding onto Bonner.
We just have to wait on Tiago.
If he takes MLE we are rock stars, if he doesn’t we’re desperately seeking …something..someone who can play at a high level as a big…
April 9th, 2010 at 9:14 pm
Bushka
April 9th, 2010 at 7:45 pm
“If he takes MLE we are rock stars, if he doesn’t we’re desperately seeking …something..someone who can play at a high level as a big…”
I appreciate the admission. In the meantime, perhaps we can suggest other options if the Splitter prayer doesn’t pan out.
April 9th, 2010 at 11:40 pm
We need to trade Parker and Splitter’s rights to the Raptors for Bosh. As long as Bosh agrees to an extension. While Bosh may want to go to another market or team he would probably be ok with playing in Texas. We could then offer MLE to another guard to shore up any deficiency in that area. Those of you talking about resigning Bonner are nuts. Let him walk! He really does not help our team in any way. He does not hit 3’s when we play the better teams and he is a liability on defense, end of story. Then we can see how it plays out and then if we need too attempt to move Jefferson at next seasons deadline then we do that as well. As far as Manu goes we absolutely needed to resign him. Not sure about the amount but am not as concerned about that. For those of you calling him injury prone i absolutely do not agree with that at all, and stop railing on him for playing for his NT. His most recent string of injuries actually started in the playoffs against the Hornets a couple of years ago. Then he was completely useless against the Lakers(probably why we got killed) then he played in the Olympics that summer and got hurt again thus ruining his 2009 season. Yes he plays reckless and he gambles but that is part of who he is as a player and why most of us appreciate what he has done and will continue to do for our team.
April 9th, 2010 at 11:43 pm
@Jim - Go after Carl Landry if Sac doesn’t pick up the team option on him.
April 10th, 2010 at 1:58 am
grego
April 9th, 2010 at 11:43 pm
“@Jim – Go after Carl Landry if Sac doesn’t pick up the team option on him.”
Couple of issues with that: (1) I think the Kings are high on Landry, and will sign him; (2) If he became a FA, he would demand more than the MLE, and we’re pretty much out of cash after the Manu signing; (3) We don’t seem to be willing to trade anybody that anybody else would want.
That said, I like Landry, and he would undoubtedly help our team. However, in my view, he’s not really a great fit for our needs because his strengths are more offensive, as opposed to being an excellent defender and “rim protector” in the paint. I’d just prefer to see us edge back to “Spurs ball”, as in, two TALL defenders in the paint, giving up 84-88 pts. per game as a team for an entire season.
April 10th, 2010 at 2:22 am
Hoopster
April 9th, 2010 at 11:40 pm
“We need to trade Parker and Splitter’s rights to the Raptors for Bosh. As long as Bosh agrees to an extension.”
Can you tell me why Bosh would agree to that? Isn’t he worth about 5 mil. more per/yr. on the open market?
Why don’t you think we could have engineered a sign & trade with Manu in the Summer to acquire some important, younger pieces? With his recent play he could have been quite valuable as a trade piece, don’t you think?
I think you’re a little down on Bonner, but if we could afford to get a three point shooter to replace him, I’d be open to looking at that. He does have the advantage of drawing a “big” out on the perimeter, and/or creating mismatches, so keep that in mind. Lets see if he can help us in the playoffs this year, and then weigh our options. Why do you think he’s so bad, by the way, for his cost (3.2 mil.)? He’s definitely up there in terms of career 3 pt. %.
April 10th, 2010 at 5:34 am
Manu won’t be playing at the World Championship and it’s a very big thing for him to lose that. It’s the only championship that he hasn’t won and representing his country is a big thing for him. That’s why he has been on so many international competitions even if that could get him injured and blow his professional career. Probably he wont be playing his last chance at this because he choose to stay with the Spurs and that shows how loyal he is to his team.
We all love the passion that he has when he plays and it’s that same passion what makes him accident prone. Otherwise he would be just another player.
I don’t justify the decisions he made but I think we shouldn’t judge his decisions easily. It has never been easy for him making them
April 10th, 2010 at 10:56 am
Jim,
I read the quote. The last sentence says now will not be able to attract a quality free agent b/c of Manu’s extension which is just plain false.
Sign Manu or don’t sign Manu, either way WE ARE OVER THE SALARY CAP!
You can only use your MLE to sign free agents if you are over the cap. How does this not make sense?
We don’t have any money to offer free agents!
We wouldn’t have the money even if we didn’t resign Manu!
Is any of this soaking in?
April 10th, 2010 at 1:48 pm
Manu’s last deal was 6 yrs, $52 mil. When he signed it, I said he would be underpaid for its entire length. If this new deal makes him overpaid, then he got what he deserved for devaluing himself in the last deal. He’s the NBA’s Derek Jeter and the Spurs were smart to enter taxland to keep him.
April 10th, 2010 at 4:03 pm
VP of Common Sense
April 10th, 2010 at 10:56 am
“The last sentence says now will not be able to attract a quality free agent b/c of Manu’s extension which is just plain false.”
It does NOT say that we will NOT be able to sign a FA; it says it “will HAMPER our ability to”….., which IS CORRECT. It’s NOT JUST about the cap. There is a limit to being able to “smartly” absorb the severe financial penalties associated with going even FURTHER into “luxury tax” territory. We do not play in LA with Bill Gates as our owner. Sinking in yet? I hope so, because I’m done discussing this issue with you.
April 10th, 2010 at 7:54 pm
Jim- What VP is saying is that even if we did not re-sign Manu, we were already over the cap. You can not sign players outside of the exceptions the NBA gives you unless they have played on your team for like 3 years+. Basically, our only hope is bringing back what we have now and using our MLE. Thats the case with or without re-signing Manu. We could not have done anything. While i agree with your point that we need another big, VP is correct on the cap issues.
April 10th, 2010 at 8:39 pm
SpursfanSteve
April 10th, 2010 at 7:54 pm
From my previous post:
“It’s NOT JUST about the cap. There is a limit to being able to “smartly” absorb the severe financial penalties associated with going even FURTHER into “luxury tax” territory.”
Apparently you also don’t understand the ramifications of the “luxury tax”. Understandable, since you’re not an owner, but don’t tell Peter Holt that signing Manu to a big contract (going DEEP into luxury tax territory) should not have ANY effect on his willingness to go even FURTHER into the luxury tax by signing an IMPORTANT “big” that’s going to be millions over the MLE (incurring FURTHER luxury tax penalties), not to mention having to spend more, though lesser amounts on signing a couple of key “role” players to contracts.
So no, VP’s not right about this issue, and neither are you. IT’S NOT THE CAP; IT’S THE LUXURY TAX ISSUES FROM BEING OVER THE CAP & STILL NEEDING TO SPEND MONEY TO IMPROVE OUR TEAM, ABOVE THE MLE!
April 10th, 2010 at 9:57 pm
SpursfanSteve
April 10th, 2010 at 7:54 pm
“You can not sign players outside of the exceptions the NBA gives you unless they have played on your team for like 3 years+.”
I guess you’re talking about the “Bird Exceptions”. I wasn’t aware of the details/complexities of these rules, and apparently the incentives are significant for signing ones own free agents as opposed to those outside your team when the team is over the cap. If this is true, I stand corrected (and the info at the link I provided in a previous post on this thread was misleading), and then we’re really screwed if Splitter doesn’t come over for the MLE (about 6 mil. - not a lot for a talented, TALL big that can block shots - probably 50/50, at best that Splitter comes at that price - even later in his career here he might not make as much as he could make in Europe).
Otherwise, start proposing trades, because we’re not winning a title with this team as currently constructed anytime soon. That’s why I proposed trying to get something really good back by doing a sign and trade with Manu after the season (while he still has value to other teams), to get a very good, TALL “big”, with some upside. But nobody wants to deal with the front line issues around here. Let’s just bury our head. LOL!
April 11th, 2010 at 4:39 am
It’s not that i dont want to fix the issues, its just that i dont think they are quite as big as you think they are. Looking at the matchups, i just dont see a reason to hit the panic button. When we are healthy, we are as good as the best team in the league. Hell, even when we havent been healthy, we’ve been better than most. I think the fact that our guards are so much better than most of the other guards it offsets some of the issues our lack of bigs provides. There is not a single team that is solid 1-5.
Orlando-
Nelson is good, but overrated.
Carter is soft
Pietrus is a solid role player but nothing to write home about
Lewis is good when he’s involved in the game, but isnt an excellent or consistent defender.
Howard is a beast, he carries the team. But if he gets in foul trouble, which we’ve shown we can get him into, Gortat isnt the least bit intimidating.
Lakers-
Bynum may come back and be in top form, or my come back like he did a couple years ago, out of shape and unable to really contribute.
Gasol is one of the best bigs in the league.
Artest is showing how much of an upgrade he was over Ariza. BUT he’s not too fast to kill us on offense. In fact, we can have a big guard him, and have RJ guard Odom.
Bryant has been banged up all year but has been killer anyway.
Fisher is a corpse. Even his shot has fallen this year.
Our bench is still FAR superior to the Lakers bench. Last game, when we cross matched some players, we effectively dealth with Odom, who has always been the Laker who killed us. We put a smaller defender on Odom, someone who was quick and gave him fits anytime he put the ball on the floor. If we can make Odom a jump shooter and keep Kobe and Gasol off the FT line, we beat the lakers, with or without a healthy Bynum.
I’d write up Clevelands mismatches too, but i’m at work right now so i may do it when i get home.
As far as Splitter coming over, he knows his best chance to make it to the NBA is going to be with the Spurs. In a recent in-game interview, RC Buford seemed pretty confident he was coming over. The mid-level isnt much, but he’s not going to get much more anywhere else on his first deal. Although young, he’s getting older and he needs to get in the league sooner rather than later if he ever wants a max type NBA deal. With the lockout coming up, it would be in his best interests to get signed up now. He’s not going to see the kind of money post lockout that he will before it. When we drafted him, he didnt want to be tied down to the rookie scale. If we give him the MLE for a year or two, and let him know if he makes good on it he becomes the foundation and will get paid like it after the second year, 2012-2013 will be a big payday for him. I might be wrong, but i think the only people on the books at that point are Manu and Hill.
The main point is, even if we cant win a title this year, we’re going to stay at least in contention for the forseeable future.
April 11th, 2010 at 5:02 am
Wow we have so many smart ppl on here.I’m supprised non of them are NBA GMs with all the information they have that I guess the Spurs front office doesn’t read or care about. How about we just support our team and enjoy the ride.Spurs haven’t led us wrong before I trust in that they know what they are doing. I’m happy we arnt the kings or Golden state. About to be 13 50 win seasons is pretty damn good so is the 4 NBA championships
April 11th, 2010 at 8:30 am
Let’s just agree that it doesn’t matter because Manu Ginobili is signed for the long haul, so enjoy the ride.
But just for fun, when talking about needing a big, shotblocking center: what do you think Tim Duncan is?
We’ve got a midlevel and it’ll probably be best spent on a big, but we’re a bit away from that. Enjoy the playoffs.
April 11th, 2010 at 11:42 am
SpursfanSteve
April 11th, 2010 at 4:39 am
“The main point is, even if we cant win a title this year, we’re going to stay at least in contention for the forseeable future.”
You make some fine points. However, in the final analysis, I just don’t agree with your concluding statement, as quoted above. I simply put a higher premium on having young/and/or “in prime”, TALL/talented/athletic “bigs” to win a championship. Look at any previous CHAMPIONSHIP team of recent history. NONE of them had the combination of weaknesses we have on the front line in terms of lack of HEIGHT, older age, and non-intimidating defenders at the rim. You address these weaknesses with a lot of “IFS” in your analysis (e.g., “Howard …….. if he gets in foul trouble), as well as overstate the weaknesses of others (e.g., Gortat is not the least bit intimidating).
There’s been plenty of very good teams with an imbalance in excellent perimeter players (2006-2007 Suns), but rarely, if ever, do such teams win championships. The only team that seemed to have violated the prerequisites of not having a strong enough front line (although it wasn’t that bad, and it was younger & taller during most of their championship years than ours) was the Bulls of MJ & Pippen. Of course, those BULLS teams played STIFLING “D”, particularly on the perimeter, had hard-nosed, scrappy role players, not to mention MJ’s ALL-WORLD status on offense, and of course having Phil Jackson as coach as well. Anyone in their right mind would be hard-pressed to compare our team to the championship years of the BULLS. They were clearly an anomaly to the “strong” front court requirement, and had IMMENSE compensating strengths.
Jesse Blanchard
April 11th, 2010 at 8:30 am
“Let’s just agree that it doesn’t matter because Manu Ginobili is signed for the long haul, so enjoy the ride. ”
It does matter if you want to win a championship, because signing Manu to 3 years at 40 million does not bring us closer to getting it. I’m interested in “winning” now, AND over the next several years, not just in being “entertained”.
“But just for fun, when talking about needing a big, shotblocking center: what do you think Tim Duncan is?”
We clearly need more than one “shot-blocker” at this point since TD, while still a decent shot-blocker, is blocking just over HALF as many as he did in his “prime”. Part of this is that he’s not able to be on the court, and/or effective for about 17 - 20 minutes a game now (about 7-8 mins. less per game than during his prime years). Thus, we need additional “rim protection” when he’s in, and basic, but effective coverage when he’s out (like during previous championships in 1999, 2003, 2005). And we are not getting it, and unlikely to get it without making a trade, or getting “lucky” that the MLE will be enough.
I’ll enjoy the playoffs while they last, but I’m under no illusion that we have anything better than a 5/1 chance to get a title in the next few years as currently constructed. And even that’s making a big stretch.
April 12th, 2010 at 8:27 am
sigh…
April 12th, 2010 at 12:09 pm
uggh….
April 13th, 2010 at 1:11 pm
No comment
April 16th, 2010 at 12:55 am
@jim henderson. spurs is not ur team, its Peter Holt. if u don’t like what the FO is doing, then shut up and look for a new team that suits ur idea of basketball organization. or better, call Detroit and buy that team. if u don’t like Manu, the hell with you. Manu is spurs and spurs is Manu. we don’t pay tickets @ subscribes nba broadband just to see ur “smart idea”. basketball is entertainment and fun and the reason why spurs is well loved, conotes only of one word… MANU! Now, please SHUT UP….
April 22nd, 2010 at 10:21 am
[...] is closer than previously expected to joining the San Antonio Spurs. Having already extended Manu Ginobili, the Spurs could do nothing better this offseason than securing the services of Splitter, as the [...]
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