Thursday, June 10th, 2010...5:30 am
Matt “the Mendoza Line” Bonner
Watercolor by Jesse Blanchard
The geeks may have yet to inherit the courts, but basketball has long been in the midst of a statistical revolution.
To the casual fan the revolution has yet to take hold. Identifying superstars hardly requires advanced statistics beyond points per game and the number of SportsCenter highlight appearances. More often than not what analytics reveals are the unsung role players. Box score deficient yet unique skill sets awaiting their next contract from Daryl Morey.
Matt Bonner represents the ultimate quandary for number crunchers-from Wayne Winston to John Hollinger, Bonner’s plus-minus and advanced statistics paint a valuable basketball asset. The eye test often suggests otherwise.
Admittedly, statistical formulas are not my forte, but the theories they produce are something I can wholeheartedly grasp onto. In trying to sum up Bonner’s value to the San Antonio Spurs an answer came back that traces back to sport analytics baseball roots. Matt Bonner is the Mendoza line of “stretch fours”.
Mario Mendoza was a defensive specialist shortstop whose sub par batting averages threatened to offset his contributions. On his career, Mendoza batted .215, though the Mendoza line is also stated to be .200. Any player (pitchers excluded) whose batting average falls below the Mendoza line is generally considered to not be a viable Major League baseball player.
Finding a similar statistical formulaic cutoff for useful rotation NBA players is much more problematic. The numbers most relevant to Matt Bonner’s career are 6-10, roughly 23 feet and his ability to make near 40 percent of his shots from that distance, but finding statistics that determine at what point his weaknesses make him a complete non-asset is much more difficult.
But unscientifically, just observing stretch fours, those who are worse than Matt Bonner-and I mean as overall players, not necessarily shooters-are either non-rotation players or are out of the league. Steve Novak, Anthony Tolliver, Brian Scalabrine, Marcus Haislip, and of course Kevin Pittsnogle, to name a few.
The stretch fours that are more talented than Matt Bonner-Dirk Nowitzki, Rashard Lewis, Anrea Bargnani, Antawn Jamison, and even the fat Rasheed Wallace-have solid footing as valuable contributors. Finding a player better than Matt Bonner that does not deserve a roster spot or a player worse than Bonner who does, that can be rather difficult.
Is there anything wrong with being the litmus test for stretch fours, so to speak? No. Unlike the standard for useful big men, the unique skill set of a stretch four (legitimate size, shooting ability) and its scarcity make it a very valuable commodity. The qualifier naturally is what role you expect him to play.
Even if it’s just for the regular season, Matt Bonner has the shooting touch to absorb minutes (an underrated skill) and the size to offer some resistance to power forwards. But expecting Bonner to guard the opposing team’s best big man or finding an offensive rhythm while the other team stays at home on shooters for extended minutes, as the San Antonio Spurs have had to do because of injuries and/or personnel deficiencies, is a recipe for failure.
Those that feel we overvalue Matt Bonner at times on this site fail to see what we view him as: a valuable contributor on a good team when given a minor role. Admittedly, anything past 15 minutes and the Spurs are likely to get diminishing returns. The longer Bonner is on the court, the more his flaws become apparent. But at his price, with his experience, it’s not as if the Spurs have overvalued him. They’ve merely been forced to overextend his role for lack of better options.
So what to do with Matt Bonner? If an upgrade can be had, then by all means do it. There are certainly better players out there. The problem is, those players cost more money. Likely more than Peter Holt can afford given the luxury tax payments the team already owes.
Assuming the Spurs land Tiago Splitter with their full mid-level exception, there are not many free agents they can acquire for the league minimum who are better than Matt Bonner. When losing a replacement level player, it’s probably best to have his replacement in place.
109 Comments
June 10th, 2010 at 5:48 am
Another nice water color, do you make one for all Spurs bench players? Are there paintings of Tom Copa and Jaime Feick hanging in your living room?
June 10th, 2010 at 6:27 am
Nah, it’s all about Andrew Gaze.
June 10th, 2010 at 6:50 am
I would bet Matty B comes back next year for the same money. As the post suggests - he is very useful in his 10-12 minutes, has the corporate knowledge, and works his ass off!
What I like most about Matty - he works his ass off. If everyone played as hard as he did… we would have been in better shape come playoff time
June 10th, 2010 at 7:18 am
I think we need to re-sign Bonner as well. What would be our options for that, though? The BAE?
June 10th, 2010 at 7:22 am
I think Bonner has proven that he can be a reliable bench player in the regular season. Clearly he hasn’t proven this in the playoffs, but I like him coming back to absorb some minutes, especially early in the season.
June 10th, 2010 at 7:42 am
I think Graydon and Jesse put these kind of articles up to just to mess with everyone. They know Matt Bonner has been a controversial player on this chat. Some love him and some think he’s a clown, but it is summer and the FA market and draft have yet to come around so I guess we have to argue about something to pass the time. You guys are awesome!
June 10th, 2010 at 7:57 am
Of course we need something to discuss and argue about, Hobson! I visit to 48MoH every day hoping there is some insightful article. The season has been over for about a month and I’m DYING. I’m tired of reading all those TP trade scenarios on ESPN. The one to the Pacers was particularly disturbing.
But the article here makes a great point. So long as Bonner is paid minimially, it makes sense to sign him. Then we pray that we don’t have to pay him any more than 15 minutes a night.
June 10th, 2010 at 8:17 am
Bryan
June 10th, 2010 at 7:57 am
“But the article here makes a great point. So long as Bonner is paid minimially, it makes sense to sign him. Then we pray that we don’t have to play him any more than 15 minutes a night.”
I’ll put my Matt Bonner disdain aside for a moment and agree with you. First of all, let’s not kid anybody. Bonner can be had for cheap. It’s not like he dramatically increased his value due to a blistering playoff performance. You are probably right, he would be valuable in certain situations. My main concern is his playing time. This next year, we need the younger guys like Blair to play much heavier minutes in order to develop. My fear is that Bonner will get in the way of that. We all know that Pop can’t control himself when it comes to playing veterans over developing young talent. As long as Bonner doesn’t get in the way of younger players court time then I am fine with resigning Bonner.
June 10th, 2010 at 8:38 am
while i don’t agree that the main point was particularly “great” (duh, we need bonner’s 15 minutes on the cheap), i definitely enjoy the meander towards it. as one who studies and appreciates the craft of writing, keep churning through the doldrums guys.
June 10th, 2010 at 10:05 am
Hang in there Spurs fans, only 4 months until the season starts.
June 10th, 2010 at 10:23 am
Its a point that anyone with a bit of a clue about basketball has known for awhile. The red rocket isn’t a regular starter on a good team. He is a valuable role player who can occasionally have a big game or fill in for someone who is injured. He’s worth right around 2.6 mil per year for 3 years.
June 10th, 2010 at 10:35 am
@Hobson,
You make a really good point about Pop not being able to stay away from the veterans. The team may need to clean house of the roll players and put a bunch of 2-3 year players on the bench to force Pop to get them some PT. However, I don’t see that happening.
June 10th, 2010 at 10:55 am
Whats the latest on Tony Parker???
Are we really looking to move him?
June 10th, 2010 at 11:56 am
If we can’t somehow upgrade with a more versatile, and at least equally efficient three-point shooter, for close to the same price, than I’m in agreement with Hobson’s position concerning Bonner.
June 10th, 2010 at 12:30 pm
The first thing that came to mind regarding Bonner and Basketball Analytics was Einstein’s quote:
“Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted.”
June 10th, 2010 at 1:27 pm
@mvg03
I’m not sure the Spurs are looking to move him, but it certainly sounds like they are at least exploring their options. The day after the season ended, there was immediate speculation that TP was on the block, as he is their best asset to bring back quality. But whether or not the Spurs are actively trying to move him or if they are just listening to offers, it sounds like there have been discussions.
June 10th, 2010 at 2:07 pm
This year, we played Bonner at #3 big (behind Duncan and Dice). If Blair develops, we can move Bonner to 4. If Splitter comes, he will take the #2 and most likely move Bonner to #5. That would put us in a great position to also play 3 big men at once, and challenging the Lakers in that regard. Offer him the minimum, but don’t expect D-Rob-esque numbers from him.
June 10th, 2010 at 3:05 pm
You guys are all idiots with your love for splitter (probably a guy none of you have seen play) and your warm feelings for matt “works his ass off” Bonner.
This guy is a loser. He shoots 20% for career in playoffs. Doesnt rebound or defend.
ILL TRY TO TYPE IN CAPS SO YOU CAN UNDERSTAND…..
Say he shoots 2/3 from three pointers in 20 minutes. He ends up with 6 points. What about the fact that he turned the ball over twice, let his man get 3 offensive rebounds, and in addition let his man score 4 pts, also he got abused on the pick and roll 4-5 times down the court.
So you guys would take 66% from three and the 6 points even though he gave up 3 rebounds, 4 points directly, 6 points indirectly?
Thats what all of you dont see. Your so in love with the 40% BS your blind to any other facet of his game.
AGAIN… we need a big who can rebound, and some athleticism. Not a stretch four. The same douche-bags that want to keep boner are the same ones that thought(think) McDoosh is an acceptable starter.
June 10th, 2010 at 3:35 pm
I have a feeling that the minute a the opposing team’s starting power forward sees Bonner checks in, he just lights up. Gets more aggressive and starts playing a helluva lot better than he was. I call it, the Bonner effect. When Sheed yells out on the floor to his teammates, “Give the ball to whoever Bonner’s guarding?” you can’t help but believe that many opposing players feel that way. For that reason alone, he should be gone — zero intimidation factor.
Rarely in the regular season and never in the playoffs have we just seen this guy go off for a 7-11 from 3 point range plus some extra buckets for a 30 point effort. Since he gets most of his points off kickouts and the system, opposing teams don’t seem to pay his offensive outbursts much credence. Compare that with a chucker like Chuck Person, who probably wasn’t that great of a shooter, and yet when he got hot, he started CALLING for the ball, and the other team had to scramble to react. That never happens with this guy. Just doesn’t have the proper mentality.
If we could trust Pop to only play Bonner Scalabrine minutes, it would be worth it to bring him back. But knowing Pop, the second one of his young big men — Blair or maybe Splitter next year — messes up on a rotation, he’ll look down the bench and play Bonner extra minutes because he knows the plays.
Or even worse, against elite teams with a stretch 4 he’ll overplay them just to try and match up and end up hurting the team.
He probably will be back, but we’d be better off if he was gone.
June 10th, 2010 at 4:13 pm
TradeTP-
Pretty sure Duncan averaged more turnovers than Bonner did. In fact, one of the best parts of Bonner’s game is he almost always makes the smart play. He knows his limits and doesnt try to outplay them. Bonner is a (slightly) better than minimum player. I’d put him between 3 and 4 mil a year. For those who have asked, we do not have to use one of the minimums or any of the exceptions on Bonner, because we have his Bird rights.
As far as his defense, out of everyone on our team, he played the best against Odom the last time they matched up. Had two or 3 blocks against the Lakers. While it’s not consistent, he does actually average just under .5 blocks a game. While not spectacular, i’d imagine that is about average for an NBA reserve averaging 20-25 minutes a night. While thats too many minutes for Bonner (i’d like to see him at 15-20), i’d say he is efficient and at absolute worst neither hurts nor helps and at best helps much more than he hurts.
June 10th, 2010 at 5:56 pm
Yes..as long as Matt is not expected to play extended minutes, he works hard and can shoot the 3 ball better than most stretch 4s.
June 10th, 2010 at 7:21 pm
Bonner is the new Finley. If he’s here, then he’s going to play. Better to let him walk.
June 10th, 2010 at 8:32 pm
Haha your logic is astounding Trade Tp. Just out of curiosity, with all the trade rumors going around who would you have the Spurs trade tp for?
June 10th, 2010 at 9:44 pm
Bonner is the posterboy for the new soft Spurs…high GPA, low basketball IQ, makes shots when they matter the least, always finds a way to lose. Anyone on here posting in favor of him is probably an intern working for Bonner’s agent. Full disclosure next time, please.
June 10th, 2010 at 9:57 pm
Well as much as I like what parker brings to the table, I honestly would not mind trading tp and rj for Monta Ellis, Anthony randolph and azubukIe/morrw but the spurs would most likely end up absorbing Corey maggetes filthy contract.
I believe this to be a pretty reasonable trade considering many on this site have mentioned the warriors to be willing to unload contracts for their future plans and besides Stephen curry actually did a much better job than what I expected considerinp he and Ellis both handle the ball quite a bit.
Maybe a three team trade helping the warriors get some more expiring contracts for parker so curry would be there starter… either way, warriors get huge amount of capspace next year and spurs fill in their big man problem with a young big with tremendous upside and (not sure what azubukie brings) but morrow could provide reliable shooting and maggete would fill rjs role…
Very unlikely but well I see it to be a much more plausible trade than others trying to get the 3rd or 4th pick in this years draft.
June 10th, 2010 at 11:45 pm
Keep Bonner if the Spurs can sign him cheap, and restrict his minutes to 10 or less (maybe more if shots are falling particularly well), then I’ll have no complaints toward the FO/coaching regarding Bonner. I honestly don’t know whether it’ll ever be possible to fill Bonner’s role at his value in SA.
June 11th, 2010 at 2:02 am
Bonner is only worth resigning as a 5th big, a guy that knows the system, hustles in practice, takes minutes in the regular season, and as win/loss insurance if one of the guys ahead of miss some time. That said, I won’t miss him at all if he goes. No offense to a great guy, just don’t want stretch bigs, thank you very much. I’d prefer to gamble his minutes on developing young true bigs, as Pop once did with him. Even if they don’t pan out long term, I’d rather pursue the upside, b/c the stretch four bs is bs.
All that said, I very often agree with Trade Tp’s assessment of things, but man, oh man, can I ever count on Trade Tp’s posts being unrelentingly sour. I mean, really. Hopefully it’s just an internet thing, and dude is a more pleasant (and emotionally versatile) cat in the real world.
June 11th, 2010 at 10:08 am
When Bonner gets minutes it takes away minutes to develop guys like Hairston. Let him leave.
Whether Bonner stays or goes isn’t going to make a difference when it comes to competing for a championship. If you want to be a little better than mediocre than sign Bonner if you want to have a realistic shot at competing for a championship than take a chance and go with someone else.
June 11th, 2010 at 10:13 am
Hollinger has a ranking to chew on. Timmy slips in here http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2010/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=BestFinalsGame-Individual-6
Gotta have more to review than Bonner?
June 11th, 2010 at 12:30 pm
In a previosu post some people were talking about bringing the twin tower effect back. Well apparently Tyson Chandler is considering opting out of his contract
http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/16662/chandler-a-free-agent-in-2010
He would be a pretty nice fit if he’s completely healthy, can definitely rebound and block shots(we remember from the hornets series in 08′) I like the idea of Chandler in silver and black.
Bonner plays hard, and that’s all you can ask for, but at the same time it doesn’t mean that we necessarily need to bring him back. We just need somebody that can hit shots if we arent gonna step it up defensively.
And its such a shame that Ian Mahinmi probably wont be back. I think if he couldve just got the hang of where he was supposed to be on offensive and defensive schemes..he had the tools to be something special.
And I’m still not sold on this Splitter guy. Just because he’s the quote “best center in Europe” does not mean it’ll transfer over to the NBA seamlessly, as far as I’;m concerned, he’s still an unproven draft pick to me unless he comes over and shows me otherwise.
June 11th, 2010 at 1:18 pm
“I like the idea of Chandler in silver and black.”
I’m one of the people in the twin towers & rededication to defense camp. Chandler would be a nice upgrade to the D. It depends on his asking price coz he’s got limited offense. The Splitter situation is going to be a problem if he drags his feet. His decision affects the draft, affects free agency.
June 11th, 2010 at 1:45 pm
Yall cant honestly want Bonner back!!! Please tell me this is a joke!! We are all Spurs fans right??
June 11th, 2010 at 2:08 pm
I don’t think we are on the page of Bonner is a fundamental piece of a championship, and should stand next to Duncan, Parker, and Manu. I think the consensus is that we can’t do much better with limited funds and availability.
June 11th, 2010 at 2:54 pm
IF and its a big IF we bring splitter I dont mind resigning bonner to be the 5th big. He could play regular season minutes to rest mcdysee and duncan. However, his minutes should be only used to rest starters. Blair and Splitters development are most important and the spurs must make sure bonner doesnt take minutes from them
June 11th, 2010 at 6:22 pm
@ Jesse, Do you actually have an Andrew Gaze painting? That would be awesome
June 11th, 2010 at 8:11 pm
I’ve said this in other posts, Matt Bonner can be an effective role player but the key is that Bonner should not be the best and a lot of the time the only 3pt threat when he is on the floor. If Bonner is able to be on the floor w/a few other consistent outside threats the opposing defense won’t be able to run him off the 3pt line as easily as the Suns were in the playoffs. Matt Bonner cannot be our best 3pt shooter but he can contribute as one of a few 3pt shooters.
June 12th, 2010 at 10:39 pm
GET RID OF BONNER !
June 13th, 2010 at 11:45 am
are you serious about having matt bogdown back he is not a GREAT DEFENDER i wonder if the people who want him back are even looking at the finals HE CAN NOT DEFEND PERIOD!!!!!!and besides we can get someone else to spread the floor we need to start getting defenders hear instead of guys who only have it once in a while
June 13th, 2010 at 12:12 pm
I agree he cannot defend or anything. Im saying as an end of the bench player who in regular season plays some minutes just bc like 11th guy on the bench….that be fine by me
June 13th, 2010 at 12:30 pm
But thats the problem renato. he was like 7th man
June 13th, 2010 at 8:46 pm
I agree about the Bonner as “5th Big” scenario. I believe this is what Front office wanted too, but got seriously underwhelming performances from Haslip, Mahimini and weren’t sold on Ratliff contributing for whatever reasons. I’m sure they wished they already had Splitter on board by now. I guess we’ll see if this plan unfolds the way FO envisioned.
Our 3pt shooting really did stink last year, with Ginobili the only exception.
One thing that comes to mind when looking at Boston…..they have a bit more talent on the roster than the spurs right now, but most importantly they have a number of aggressive players that are really taking it to the lakers.
Celtics have Robinson, Sheed, Davis and Allen coming off the bench with attitude. What do the spurs have? Blair and either Parker, Hill or Jefferson or whoever is designated 6th man. After that? Not much- a bit of unitimidating hustle from Bonner and Bogans with an occasional 3, and garbage minutes from Mason, and yet to be playoff tested minutes from Hairston.
As we saw….once our lack of versatility and defensive bite was exposed by the Suns, there was not a whole lot we could do to beat a vastly superior offensive team.
Im sure Pop and the team would love to go back to the twin towers days….but really is it that simple to snap our fingers and get a quality affordable big next to Timmy? I think they did well to get someone like Dice. They were just missing that extra legit big (aka Perkins for the celts), and as I suggested in earlier posts, a true back up point guard who can hit the three (aka Nate Robinson), and as everyone else says a decent wing defender (aka Tony Allen).
If we could keep this team, subtract Mason, Bogans, and insert Splitter or equivilant legit big, and add a decent veteran point guard and maybe bring Hairstons minutes up for defensive assignments if we cant find a wing defender/3pt specialist. Then Hill can reclaim his rightful place as our dynamo 6th man shooting guard- who can bring the necessary energy and minutes to effectively rest Ginobili. Hill then doesn’t need to become something he is not: a true point guard. Jefferson can play his position and maybe try to tweak his game a bit to suit the spurs system. But we need that other veteran backcourt player who adds to the group leadership and who can fearlessly hit a timely three or two.
Has anyone got any suggestions on who is available around the league that might fit this bill?
June 14th, 2010 at 6:47 am
An opportunity to submit questions for Manu http://www.nba.com/spurs/features/100614_manu_ginobili_mailbag.html
June 14th, 2010 at 7:19 am
@trade Tp
I agree. I complained all season about his use and him being a defensive liabillity. I would prefer the spurs bring back mahimi than bonner. However, if he is brought back some1 must explain to Pop that blair and splitter (if he is brought in if not another big) are the keys. Bonner should be used spairingly and ONLY in the regular season.
June 14th, 2010 at 11:54 am
Stats not very impressive, to say the least, but could this guy be one of those dark horse picks that the Spurs pull off by seeing things that we don’t see; a teeming sense of promise lurking below the surface?
http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Daniel-Orton-5272/
June 14th, 2010 at 11:59 am
Another under the radar possibility. Do the Spurs love the French?
http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Kevin-Seraphin-5278/
June 14th, 2010 at 12:04 pm
Could this guy drop to #20 and step in to give us some immediate size & defensive presence?
http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Cole-Aldrich-1250/
June 14th, 2010 at 5:37 pm
By the way, if this SG drops for whatever reason, do we pull the trigger on this guy (even though, by position, not our top need)? This dude is a scoring machine.
http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/James-Anderson-5106/
June 14th, 2010 at 5:50 pm
Actually, I didn’t realize that Draft Express has Andersen penciled in at #23 in their mock draft. The guy has a sweet stroke, & great range.
June 14th, 2010 at 9:51 pm
@ Jim Henderson,
None of those players sound enticing as draft picks. Orton 3pts and 3 rebs a game? Reminds me of Marvin Williams stats @ UNC but worse. Kevin Seraphin only 5 yrs of organized ball? Draft him after letting Mahinmi go? Not a chance. Cole Aldrich sounds like a inside version of Matt Bonner without the hustle. James Anderson seems like a Rip Hamilton type, but I wasn’t impressed seeing him play for Okla St.
Luke Babbit sounds like a great fit for the Spurs but, his workouts seem to have made sure he’ll get drafted before #20.
June 14th, 2010 at 10:18 pm
The Spurs would be greatly helped by signing free agent Bobby Jones to a 2 yr minimum with a 3rd yr option to replace Keith Bogans. Bobby Jones defended Brandon Roy and Nate Washington in practice at UW. He makes hustle plays and was good enough to sign with the Spurs for like 3 games. Spurs need to give him a shot. Draftexpress even says he could be a Bruce Bowen type or even Stacey Augmon.
http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Bobby-Jones-351/
June 14th, 2010 at 10:35 pm
Splitter only managed 4 pts in his last game against Regal Barcelona.
http://www.eurobasket.com/Spain/basketball.asp?NewsID=192936
June 15th, 2010 at 5:11 am
Why not trade the #20 pick, next years pick and a sign and trade from one of our lower bench players like Mahimini, bonner or bogans for a solid rotation guard from a young team with too many of these players? Since we will most likely make the playoffs again, next years pick will be another late 20′s, and if we truly are trying to get one more in the Timmy era….why not sacrifice a couple of speculator draft picks? Eventually we need to completely rebuild because our decade long strategy has been based on Tim and David….not your run-of-the mill all star draft picks. Antoine Walker was an All star wasn’t he? Does that mean we should toss parker for one of these guys? Underrated, hungry guards/swing guys are the quickest way to improve team performance, and the most realistic way for the spurs. I’m belatedly seconding the Stephen Jackson calls….since
June 15th, 2010 at 5:12 am
we already tanned $14mil on Jefferson.
June 15th, 2010 at 11:12 am
lvmainman
June 14th, 2010 at 9:51 pm
Just so you know, I wasn’t advocating for any of the draft prospects thrown up on the board on this thread. I was simply, for the fun of it, attempting to spur thoughts about draft picks “outside the obvious” (not all based on stats, etc.), because often the Spurs seem to come up with those types of picks. I’ve already previously listed my top four 1st & 2nd round draft picks for the Spurs that seem to make the most sense:
Pondexter
James
Sanders
George
2nd round:
Jerome Jordan
Varnado (if he drops)
Parakhouski
Pittman (very enticing “project”)
June 15th, 2010 at 12:42 pm
5 minutes ago Caja Laboral won the Spanish league championship. Splitter has been voted Final’s MVP to add to his regular season’s MVP. He has demolished -specially in defense- every player he has been matched against. This man can play in SA. Caja Laboral is like the Spurs, a very unselfish team with very strong team identity. He will fit very nicely next to TD, Manu, etc.
Let’s hope that he comes.
June 15th, 2010 at 12:51 pm
Again, ESPN is suggesting the Spurs are willing to part with Parker for Indiana’s #10 pick. I’m sure there would be more to a Parker trade than that, such as maybe Troy Murphy being thrown in a deal to make the numbers work. I wouldn’t mind trading Parker for a great draft pick, but if we unload Parker it needs to be for a top 5 pick at least. The #10 pick won’t even come close to making a deal for Parker.
June 15th, 2010 at 12:57 pm
Hey! Splitter’s Baskonia just swept the heavy favorite Barcelona (Euroleague Champions), while winning Finals MVP and Regular Season MVP awards.
It would be nice to see him around SA next year right? Seems difficult, though.
June 15th, 2010 at 4:11 pm
Pony up the extra couple mil a year and go for Channing Frye instead of Bonner.
June 15th, 2010 at 4:12 pm
Pony up the extra couple of million a year and go for Channing Frye instead of Bonner.
June 15th, 2010 at 4:44 pm
I dont see why we wouldnt do it for Murphy and the 10. That would probably be Ed Davis. So Essentially we would be filling some holes. The question would be WHY would Indiana do this?
June 15th, 2010 at 4:44 pm
Hobson. you got a link for your info?
June 15th, 2010 at 7:21 pm
Trade Tp, this was on ESPN rumors. The article didn’t directly state Murphy, but that was suggested several weeks ago. Here is the link. Again it’s just a rumor, but there have been Parker rumors floating around since we got eliminated. While this deal may not happen, I believe where there’s smoke there’s fire.
http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/features/rumors#16690
June 16th, 2010 at 3:09 am
let’s just pick up Nowitski, and/or Bosh. and trade Richard Jefferson for Joe Johnson. please lol
June 16th, 2010 at 5:48 am
TRADE TP SCENARIOS:
I recently read parker for 10th Murphy and Rush…
What does NY have that we would want?
How about this one. Which is the one that I would go for…
Miami gets Parker - WE GET Cook, Jones, Beasley and #18?
June 16th, 2010 at 6:50 am
Bonner fucking SUCKS. He wouldn’t even start on the Austin Toro’s for crying out loud. I think him and Pop are in bed together or something, the guy is just Awful and cost us at least 3-4 games this year. He can’t hit any big shots and his defense doesn’t exist. I wouldn’t even think about re-signing this guy if I were running the show.
June 16th, 2010 at 7:15 am
SPLITTER NEWS:
Tiago Splitter won the MVP for the regular season.
Tiago Splitter won the MVP of the finals.
Tiago Splitter won the Championship.
“Tiago Splitter reigned. After winning the MVP award of the regular season, now is the best player trophy after the final great to be back in the third game, which managed 36 rating. Josean Querejeta, president of the Caja Laboral, I would consider ‘normal’ his march to the NBA”
http://www.acb.com
June 16th, 2010 at 7:21 am
21 Splitter, Tiago
43:20
pts,field,field, ft , ft% , Rb,D-O, blk, ast,turn
14, 6/10, 60% ,2/2, 100% 13, 9+4, 4, 4, 0,
Sounds like a guy who could contribute to me…
June 16th, 2010 at 7:25 am
And a +/- of +36…
June 16th, 2010 at 8:28 am
If you’re the MVP of the Spanish ACB, you’re legit. It is by far and away the best league outside of the NBA. By comparison, the D-League can’t hold a candle to the ACB.
And also, we’re not talking about a Darko Milicic who showed promise but not the production. Splitter has put up good to great numbers for several years. Another imortant thing to rememeber as well - stats in the Euro league are typically lower than what you would see in the NBA. They play a shorter game (only 40 min), teams use their bench much much more than the NBA, and the refs also let the play get much rougher, which means less FTA for a guy like Splitter.
If he does indeed come over next year, he’ll be a solid, solid player for us.
June 16th, 2010 at 8:30 am
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June 16th, 2010 at 8:56 am
@Tyler,
I agree with your post. Splitter isn’t the second coming of David Robinson, but he can certainly be a valuable role player on a contending team. Many in this chat have already made valid comparisons between him and Louis Scola. If Splitter turns out to “only” be as good as Scola, the Spurs have a very valuable player who can easily log 25-30 min/night. Heaven knows that we would all like to have gotten Scola on the team.
We definitely need to rope this guy into coming over this summer. It doesn’t take a brain surgeon to see that the Spurs DESPERATELY need to get at least one more big to help Duncan. Most of the trade rumors surrounding Parker have the Spurs either moving up in the draft to get a big or directly trading for a big. Indeed, in my opinion, we either get Splitter and keep Parker or we can’t sign Splitter and must trade Parker. It’s almost an all or nothing proposition. My point in all of this is that signing Splitter almost surely has to be at the very heart of the FO summer plans to rebuild this team.
June 16th, 2010 at 12:00 pm
Hobson- you say that splitter isnt the next DR. But he is the heart of rebuilding the team. Im confused. We are trying to BUILD the team around a role player?
June 16th, 2010 at 12:50 pm
@Tyler, Euroleague is better than Spanish ACB. Splitter’s team lost 3-1 to CSKA Moscow in the quarterfinals this year. Splitter was Euroleague MVP of the week once but never MVP of the month. He was one of 10 All-Euroleague nominees for the season.
All that said, I feel he’s an upgrade over McDyess but I wonder about his rookie-year productivity.
June 16th, 2010 at 1:04 pm
Trade Tp
June 16th, 2010 at 12:00 pm
Rebulding a team by adding good role players and building a team around good role players are two different things. TradeTp, I’m saying he is at the heart of whatever we are going to do THIS summer (let me emphasize “this summer”). He’s not necessarily a long term solution to replace Duncan, but he is at least a short term solution to take minutes from Duncan and therefore extend his shelf life. Sure, Splitter’s not a 20/10 guy, but at the very least, he is a young, decent backup C. Splitter should be better than McDyess and fits the bill of a true center much better than Blair. If I had it my way, we would already have Duncan’s replacement or at least be in the process of trading up in the draft to get a promising big, but thats just me dreaming. I wouldn’t mind getting Splitter PLUS trading up in the draft to get a possible stud, but we’ll just have to see how things work out.
June 16th, 2010 at 2:17 pm
@doggydogworld
The Euroleague draws the top teams from a bunch of national leagues - CSKA doesn’t play in the Spanish ACB, they play in the VTB United League (the top Russian league). On the national level, the Spanish ACB is widely regarded the best league outside of the NBA.
We might be getting into semantics here, but the Euroleague isn’t as much a league as it is a yearly playoff/tournament.
A soccer analogy - the Spanish ACB is akin to the English Premier League and the Euroleague would be the UEFA Champions League.
June 16th, 2010 at 2:24 pm
Also on Splitter, this is what The Painted Area had to say about Splitter after they upset Barca:
“Tiago Splitter was the best player on floor in Game 3 with a sweet stat line of 14 pts, 13 rebs (4 off.), 4 assts, 4 stls & 2 blks. Splitter came up huge in the OT period with one of his patented hooks, a tip-in off one of his misses and stepped up to take a charge on Pete Mickeal that fouled him out.
Tiago was effective scoring down low on lay-ins and hooks with both hands, not to mention he tossed a few touch passes into the mix. His defense in screen action was superb as usual and he did another fine job on Erazem Lorbek.
Tiago was rightfully named Finals MVP, though Huertas and San Emeterio were ballin’ as well in this series. This series solidified our opinion that Tiago is the best all-around big outside the NBA and should have little difficulty transitioning to the NBA.”
Again, just the author’s opinion, but it appears that Splitter should be a productive NBA player right away. Now we just need to sign him…..
June 16th, 2010 at 4:09 pm
Splitter seems to be headed to SA, according to Bruno of spurstalk.com
http://www.lejpb.com/paperezkoa/20100617/205455/fr/Le-Baskonia-champion
The last paragraph indeed states that he’s “packing his bag” to play in the NBA. Does anyone know more about this?
June 16th, 2010 at 4:27 pm
Lets rewind to last summer and get all of your “expert” opinions on McDyess being what we need.
June 16th, 2010 at 7:54 pm
Trade Tp
June 16th, 2010 at 4:27 pm
“Lets rewind to last summer and get all of your “expert” opinions on McDyess being what we need.”
First of all, Splitter and McDyess are two completely different situations. You are comparing apples and oranges in every sense of the phrase. Secondly, I distinctly remember that a number of us were concerned that we didn’t have the front line size or length to stop the Lakers. I’m not sure any of us said McDyess was the sole answer to our front line problems. Many thought McDyess would have a positive impact on the team and be a nice role player. And McDyess was all of these things. In the playoffs, he rebounded well, played good defense against Dirk, and generally hit his open shots. Sure Dirk scored some points and hit some crazy shots, but thats why he gets paid $20 mil/year. Against Stoudamire, he simply didn’t have the speed to keep up, but what PF in the league does? I don’t understand your irrational dislike of Tiago Splitter. We’ve had expert opinions, stat comparisons, and the Spurs FO opinions on him and yet you don’t buy any of it. Please make your case, with stats and expert analysis included, as to why you think he is trash.
June 16th, 2010 at 9:26 pm
how about this… Bonner checks in hits 2 out of 3 threes takes 5 rebounds a dozen blocks and 3 steals in 2 and a half minutes DO YOU LIKE THAT !!!??!?!?!
Well i guess anyone can make up a situation and use it to suit their argument..whaddayaknow!
Bonners a 2.6 million per player. Get over it. The team will be better when he is marginalised because the water in the talent pool got too deep, not because we just play him less.
The reason he was even a factor this year was because the team wasn’t deep enough to go the distance while limiting Timmys minutes.
I’d expecxt him to be back next season in a reduced role. God anyone would think he was the reason for us not winning a champion ship the way some of you guys carry on. I guess not drafting Lebron James is another mistake by the front office…
June 17th, 2010 at 4:37 am
Tiago news today…http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/rumors/post/Brazilian-Splitter-coming-to-NBA-?urn=nba,249126
Also, the source post…http://thehoopsmarket.blogspot.com/2010/06/tiago-splitter-closer-to-play-in-nba.html
June 17th, 2010 at 4:41 am
Jesse, how solid is the Hoops Market quote from Europe regarding Tiago coming to the NBA next season?
June 17th, 2010 at 5:09 am
Hobson- Maybe its not hate for Splitter, but hate for the coaching staff who will inevitably F the situation up by not getting growth from Splitter or Blair and allowing McDoosh and Bonner to continue to hog minutes while we get bounced from the playoffs in round one.
The topic of Bonner is the fact that he blows and the coaching staff is too stupid to play the right players at the right time. Sure paying Bonner 2.6 to hit a couple of threes is fine. But paying him that to miss threes and allow the opponent to run wild on the glass, in the paint, and on the score board is RETARDED.
Bonner is awful. Playing him 20 minutes a game is INSANE.
June 17th, 2010 at 6:35 am
mahinmi/ splitter
FUTURE TWIN TOWERS!!!
man i want some spurs news.
here’s to the finals ending tonight!
June 17th, 2010 at 9:09 am
What kind of game does Splitter play? (not referring to basketball). As in, is he a stretch 4 like Nowitzki? Duncan-type? Shaq-type?
June 17th, 2010 at 10:15 am
@ idahospur
He’s mainly a back-to-the-basket PF/C, although he does have range out to 16-18 feet. In that regard, he’s similar to TD - he has the ability to be effective from a variety of areas, not just the block. Having said that though, he’s not a stretch 4, Dirk-type player that is at his best when he faces up - Splitter makes his living in the paint. Offensively, he’s a pretty refined player. I don’t think he’s going to have trouble with the Spurs’ offensive scheme.
The one thing I’ve always questioned is his foot speed/agility. For instance, how well can he defend the pick and roll? There are probably others that can answer that question, but from the report I posted above, it appears Splitter has shown the ability to be somewhat of an effective pick and roll defender. And though no one is expecting him to be a DPOY candidate, I’m encouraged by what I’ve read and heard about his defense.
To get an idea of the caliber of player in the ACB league, just look at a few of the past MVP’s of that league -
Marc Gasol
Luis Scola
JC Navarro
Nocioni
Walter Herrmann
Really, only Herrmann was the only guy who in the NBA didn’t make an impact. Even Navarro, in his one year with Memphis, played pretty well.
June 17th, 2010 at 10:32 am
BigJ
June 17th, 2010 at 4:37 am
“The 25-year-old Brazilian center, MVP of the last ACB league, has an opt-out clause to move to the NBA next summer…..”
They’re merely suggesting that Splitter is likely to come to the NBA NEXT summer, because that’s when he has an opt-out clause. The key for THIS year is what are the buy-out terms, and is it worth it to him to come now.
June 17th, 2010 at 1:34 pm
Bonner plays no defense! The 4 Championships they won were defense orientated teams. It’s harder to play good defense than to spot up and hit a three.
He gets in foul trouble easy and has to sit before he does anything significant. And correction for
Die hard Spurs fan - If every body played as hard as Manu did when he got on the court they would gone a little further or at least not get swept. I think your confusing playing hard with running around the court clueless. Just because he can make a 3 doesnt mean he’s the total package.
June 17th, 2010 at 2:02 pm
How about Solomon Alabi(20th)/Splitter twin towers and pick up Nemanja Bjelica (Serbian pt forward - yes he has the skills of a point gaurd, wing man, and F at 6’10″) with the 49th pick if he’s still there? If Splitter comes and the picks are there this would be an interesting roster.
Future:
Center - Alabi ( 7’1″)
PF - Splitter (7’0″)
SF - Bjelica (6’10″)
SG - Manu (6’6″)
PG - Tony Parker ((6’2″)
Center - McDyse/Blair ( 6’11″/6’7″)
PF - Duncan (7’0″) (minutes limited)
SF - RJ/Hairston (6’7″/6’6″)
SG - De Colo (6’5″)
PG - Hill (6’2″)
- Gee back up
June 17th, 2010 at 2:12 pm
I’ve never like Garnett and Rondo. Over the course of their careers, I have been indifferent about Allen and Pierce, but I sure hope they whoop that Laker ass tonite! I’ll be pissed if Kobe gets to 5 before Duncan.
June 17th, 2010 at 4:53 pm
Hobson I’m in the same boat, as much as i don’t like either franchise, I am not that keen on Kobe grabbing 5.
@Tradetp
“Hobson- Maybe its not hate for Splitter, but hate for the coaching staff who will inevitably F the situation up by not getting growth from Splitter or Blair ”
So let me get this straight… The coaching staff can’t develop players?
Because Blair looked like he developed to me over the course of the season, and George Hill has developed an enormous amount in a short space of time. Hairston has improved a hell of a lot as well over the past two seasons, and the spurs have invested in that development.
San Antonio has a great programme for maximising players. Sometimes the players might not be good enough, but there are very few franchises in the league that offer as much potential return from a low pick in the draft as the Spurs.
I hope Mudguts comes back and plays 8-10 minutes per night at either big slot. 2 minutes per quarter is enough red head for me.
He is a specific talent that is hard to replicate in a system as involved and complex as the one instilled by Pop and the Spurs staff. Especially for 2 million bucks. If you don’t get that then you don’t get NBA basketball.
He averaged 17 per in the regular season and 17 per in the playoffs. Everyone is pretty much on board that 17 is too many, but the guy on your team that picks up 8 to 10 minutes per game is going to be a Matt Bonner type of guy wether you like that or not.
These are the kinds of players that fill in the margins of NBA franchises and get far too much blame / glory for the success of a team.
June 17th, 2010 at 6:28 pm
Bushka- you’re right we cant develop players. POp never has.
June 18th, 2010 at 6:56 am
I say dump a contract for Solomon pick but Paul gorge is a must.He is more needed then Blair.He is more needed then anyone.He will be an all star in 2 years.watch his stroke on youtube.Nobdy right now has one like it since gervin
June 18th, 2010 at 7:01 am
Oh an 2 years of Bonner has cost us 1.developing Ian.2.Dunks.3 the delotion we could hav an Horry type player back on the team.WALLACE,DIRK, only come close to what Horry was.Horry was tougher,smarter,an nerves of burnt steel then DIRK or WALLACE.You cant get A guy to shoot a MIILLION 3 in practis an skip the fact he dosent have the mental toughness an expect it to tranfer to a reAL GAME.An its not BONNERS fault either i might add.
June 18th, 2010 at 9:26 am
roboSID
June 18th, 2010 at 6:56 am
“I say dump a contract for Solomon pick but Paul gorge is a must.He is more needed then Blair.He is more needed then anyone.He will be an all star in 2 years.watch his stroke on youtube.Nobdy right now has one like it since gervin”
I’m afraid drafting some skinny kid on the wing at #20 is not more needed than our already NBA-tested “steal”, and budding double/double machine in the front court (Blair). The chances of George being an all-star in 2 years is about two percent. And you can’t possibly be that confident in him from a youtube video.
June 18th, 2010 at 6:13 pm
Bushka- you’re right we cant develop players. POp never has.
George Hill must have developed himself…not to mention picked himself in the draft…same with that Blair kid…That Tony Parker guy what an incredible self developing point guard he was…. etc …etc….He keeps picking talent…Splitter was just named MVP of the Spanish league…The man knows the game better than just about anyone on the planet.
Pop keeps making these draft picks and helps develop these players. I don’t get where you are coming from, the numbers are in front of you. So few teams draft and develop all stars themselves outside of the top echelon of lottery picks.
June 18th, 2010 at 6:20 pm
@Jim H
That’s the read there regarding Tiago’s situation that appears to be mis-stated by several sources. Some make it like this is the summer for his migration while others, as you noted, look towards next summer.
Will be interesting.
June 19th, 2010 at 1:04 am
Splitter’s opt-out is for THIS summer. We’ve always known this. RC friggin Buford has talked about this. C’mon guys, duh.
June 19th, 2010 at 7:08 am
Bushka- Both Tony Parker and Blair have had the SAME GAME THEIR ENTIRE LIFE. That doesnt equate to development. The same can be said about Hill.
Acting like these players had no business on the court before POP is ignorant.
Pop also developed Bonner….
Great job
June 19th, 2010 at 5:06 pm
td4life
June 19th, 2010 at 1:04 am
“Splitter’s opt-out is for THIS summer. We’ve always known this. RC friggin Buford has talked about this. C’mon guys, duh.”
That’s not what the quote from “The Hoops Market” says. In the post of June 16, it says the following:
“The 25-year-old Brazilian center, MVP of the last ACB league, has an opt-out clause to move to the NBA next summer, after averaging 14.2 points and 7.8. rebounds last season.”
Perhaps they’re wrong, I don’t know, I’m not an expert on Splitter’s contract particulars with Caja Laboral. I thought his buy-out would be less this year, but that we would still have to buy him out.
http://thehoopsmarket.blogspot.com/2010/06/tiago-splitter-closer-to-play-in-nba.html
June 20th, 2010 at 12:48 am
We have all known since summer ’08, that Tiago’s opt-out (no buy-out) was TWO YEARS. I’ll take RC Buford’s word over “hoopsmarket.blogspot.”
June 20th, 2010 at 10:33 am
td4life
June 20th, 2010 at 12:48 am
That’s fine. To be honest, I guess I just missed RC talking about it. If you’re correct, you’d think we’d be hearing about Splitter’s decision on whether to opt out any day now. Right?
June 21st, 2010 at 3:59 pm
“Bushka- Both Tony Parker and Blair have had the SAME GAME THEIR ENTIRE LIFE. That doesnt equate to development. The same can be said about Hill.”
well done.
So you are saying that pop either
1. Can’t develop players
or
2. IS brilliant at evaluating talent and picking talent that every other GM in the entire freaking league misses.
Thanks for making that point.
June 22nd, 2010 at 5:16 am
Hill was a great player in HS and college. Im sure you had no clue about this.
He was Honorable Mention all american, and an early entry into the draft.
Scored 36 ppg as a high school senior.
ITs not like we drafted hill out of shape, never shot a basketball, and lazy.
Blair was only a concern because of his knees, not his ability. Again its not like we drafted someone who couldnt rebound or didnt have a good touch around the basket.
so yes I am saying #1.
GREAT POINT…. not
June 22nd, 2010 at 2:41 pm
Well done. Apparently Hill was the consensus pick.
How disingenuous do you want to be….
Hill was a bolt in the blue that most everyone commentators and pundits both, questioned. If he was such a consensus all american no surprise pick then please explain how he lasted till #26….
Blair got passed on by every franchise. EVERY franchise. Sure it was about his Knees, but the guys who took him. That was this front office.
In both cases the front office and yes that includes that whacky Pop guy you love so much, chose well.
They picked Manu from the depths of the 2nd round at 57!!!!!! they chose Parker at 28!!!!!!!
At some point you have to get off the crazy train and realise that talent evaluation is something this franchise has done exceptionally well with.
The spurs were the first team to own their own D league affiliate to train and develop players into the big clubs system, to stash and develop draft picks.
You know Hairston, Gee, Jerrels, Williams, etc etc etc.
Obviously a coincidence and nothing to do with the fact that the spurs know how to spot and develop talent.
SO in summary.
The spurs have a proven track record in evaluating draft talent.
They have an excellent record in developing that talent.
June 22nd, 2010 at 7:25 pm
Bushka- Dumb as hell.
Blair- Please elaborate on pick #37 and let me know who we could have drafted. Goran Suton was still left on the board. Taking Blair at 37 was not some genius move.
The thinking was this: Blair is the best athlete on the board if he turns out to be something great, if not he was pick 37….
Hill- So because commentators didnt know George was an all American that makes the FO smart? We passed on Dragic and Chalmers….
Parker/Ginobili- Great work here. Anyone with half a brain knew about these two.
Could have said we F’ed up not taking Gilbert over Parker….
For each of these picks, who were logical choices, there were years that were COMPLETE BUSTS with foreigners and D-bags. You act like we took Manu high in 99. Two time MVP and we take Leon Smith in the first round…
PLEASE
June 22nd, 2010 at 9:53 pm
Tradetp if you want to sound ignorant you are doing a great job.
Jonas Jerobko, Jon Brockman, and Marcus Thornton were all taken after Blair so, yes, there were more choices available than Goran Sutton, that turned into useful NBA level talents.
George Hill you managed to again ignore. He was a surprise pickup by guess who and has developed. He is a better defender, better shooter, and better ball handler, but hey you go and attribute every positive to something else and every negative to pop…
You are quiet simply 100% agenda driven. It’s as transparent as a pane of glass.
You take every single topic and turn it into a negative post on pop.
It’s ridiculous.
Just saying anyone with half a brain knows about the Parker and Ginobli means what exactly?
That they are invalid???
That you don’t have half a brain? Because apparently knowing about them means you can ignore them?
They happened….This coach had a hand in that…deal with the fact that you can’t paint every freaking thing pop does as a negative.
Regardless of your spin.
These guys were drafted by Pop.
No one in their right mind is saying every pick is brilliant, but we have a storied history of picking up diamonds in the rough. Why? Because we are better at evaluating talent than the mean NBA franchise.
This franchise owns it’s own affiliate, we stash draft picks and develop them. I’m sure that you’ll find some way to be negative about it.
June 23rd, 2010 at 5:12 am
Bushka- The CHANCE that the FO took on Parker and Manu wasnt that great. They were both prime time across the pond.
Youre blind Bushka. Go ahead and talk about Pop developing tim duncan and david robinson….. GREAT WORK.
June 24th, 2010 at 8:08 am
Bushka- damn youre stupid. You must not watch any thing other than the NBA. Blair and Hill were good during their college careers. You dont simply get to be an all american for nothing.
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