Friday, July 9th, 2010...11:43 am
LeBron LeGone: An appreciation of the San Antonio Spurs
Through shades of black and silver, color me unimpressed with the Summer of LeBron.
For all the hype, has anything drastically changed in the NBA?
Well, one thing has changed. Cleveland is crushed. It’s hard not to feel sympathy for Cavaliers fans, who live in a city that does not simply endure suffering. They define it, with a the for emphasis. There have been many fumbles throughout history, but only one The Fumble. Many game-winning drives, but only one The Drive. And now, there is The Decision. Or is it LeDecision?
Now that the smoke is beginning to clear, everything seems shockingly familiar. Age prohibiting, it would appear the NBA finals still run through Los Angeles and Boston. The Lakers are still the unquestioned favorite. Darko Milicic is still an overpaid NBA player whose team continues to add power forwards. And of course the San Antonio Spurs are still the Spurs.
If we take anything away from this Summer of LeBron, it’s how thankful we should be for that.
A decade ago San Antonio Spurs fans held their breath while Tim Duncan was openly wooed by another Florida team with the same promises of teaming him up with another elite player in his prime who then just so happened to also be hyped as the next Michael Jordan. The decision was excruciatingly closer than many Spurs fans care to believe, as an NBA.com reporter reminded us back in March:
“I came close to leaving,” Duncan said.
How close?
“Real close.”
Tim Duncan may not have been the homegrown star that LeBron James was for Cleveland, but his loss would have been just as devastating—probable team relocation devastating.
Given similar situations and the same high stakes, the two men revealed what should now separate them in the history books. Whereas LeBron James created a media circus that appeared to be about everything but basketball, Tim Duncan, with his priorities in line, made a decision instead of a spectacle.
This coming from a player, who despite the hype, was a better player then than what LeBron James is today. And in delivering the news as only he could, Duncan revealed more personality than all the one-hour ESPN specials ever could (again, from NBA.com):
It was the Moment of Truth, or the Turning Point of the Franchise, or whatever reach-for-the-antacid title you want to attach to it. Duncan got straight to the point, which felt like a dagger in Pop’s gut.
“Well coach, you know, there’s no beach in San Antonio,” Duncan began, trying to break the news gently.
You know when a woman gets a breakup call from George Clooney? This felt like one. Until Popovich realized he was being punked.
“There’s no beach in Orlando, either,” Popovich growled. “There’s a cultural desert there. What do you want to go there for?”
Duncan laughed and gave the coach the good news: He was re-signing with San Antonio. The other day, Popovich smiled at the memory of getting pump-faked by his center, and said: “He got me. He got me good.”
Off the court there is little we truly know about Tim Duncan or LeBron James, and thanks to Tim Duncan’s stoic face, there is little we know about him on the court as well. But there is something in the way he operates where little snippets like the one above ring honest. Not fabricated.
With a number of personal attacks towards LeBron James running across the internet, TrueHoop’s Henry Abbott offers his own personal theory for the hate:
Why is it that so many are in the mood to hate LeBron James?
A theory: It’s because he stepped out of place. Players play. That’s how it was. They are quiet and sweaty craftsmen who ought not to be heard from except to call out plays and say “yessir” to the coach. The way sports used to be, owners did things like make billion-dollar decisions and general managers and agents did things like agonize over personnel.
But that was always a myth. The owners, GMs and agents may have seemed like they held all the cards, but that’s only because players weren’t great at wielding the power they had. The players always drove the value, because they are what motivated the fans who paid for everything. It has taken decades, but eventually a player — this player — figured out how to really put himself in the driver’s seat, with billionaire owners lining up, one by one, attempting to earn his valuable affections.
There may be some truth in that, along with the fact that he created a one hour celebration that destroyed the dreams of Cleveland fans. But all the same, as a fan, I would rather not have to deal with such power plays.
It’s not about keeping players in their place for the sake of keeping them in their place either. Those that make such plays generally have their own agenda, and wining isn’t usually the driving force behind it. That, and former players not named Jerry West historically make terrible general managers.
Despite what Abbott reported, one player has in fact recently made such a move. For a brief moment in time Kobe Bryant took the reins of the Los Angeles Lakers, and it got him Kwame Brown, Smush Parker, and the promise of many first round exits to come until Chris Wallace bailed him out with Pau Gasol.
Successful franchises often attribute their good fortune to good culture. Again, the Los Angeles Lakers are a prime example of that, moving from the culture of Kobe back to the one put in place by Phil Jackson. The Boston Celtics were made possible because Doc Rivers and Kevin Garnett, and the Spurs of course have Gregg Popovich and Tim Duncan to thank for theirs.
The underlying point is that franchises can only create the culture that their star player allows them to, and by all account the Cleveland Cavaliers were an organization that placed their culture at the feet of LeBron James.
Now, Gilbert is the tough guy with James leaving the Cavs behind? Listen, Ferry and Brown always warned Gilbert that giving James everything he wanted – giving it when and where and how – wouldn’t be the way they would keep him. LeBron didn’t respect them because they never demanded it.
Gilbert always believed he should do everything James wanted – hire his buddies into jobs, throw them on summer-league rosters, allow him to do those stupid pregame choreographed dances – that James would love him, that he would never leave. Only, James is a taker, and he took and took until he had bled Gilbert and that franchise to the bone.
The San Antonio Spurs time in the sun is setting fast, and soon Tim Duncan will retire. But San Antonio should take some comfort that as cursed as Cleveland is as a sports town, we have been immeasurably blessed. Twice now the Spurs have hit rock bottom at the absolute right time.
That’s two more times than most franchises can claim. And for Cleveland? Even when they find themselves in the right place at the right time they get the wrong person.
Because while LeBron James was the King that the Cleveland Cavaliers bowed down to, Tim Duncan has been the foundation upon which the San Antonio Spurs have pounded the rock.
89 Comments
July 9th, 2010 at 11:54 am
Awesome!
July 9th, 2010 at 11:59 am
Timmy is a CLASS ACT.
The SPURS organization is the FINEST in the league.
July 9th, 2010 at 12:04 pm
It is astounding to me how fortunate we have been to get class acts not once, but twice. Truly, the Spurs have been blessed.
July 9th, 2010 at 12:04 pm
this post totally just gave me a warm-fuzzy. i <3 timmeh even more, which i felt was impossible 5 minutes ago. =)
July 9th, 2010 at 12:04 pm
the spurs are the most uninteresting and bland team in all of major sports
July 9th, 2010 at 12:09 pm
And to those who want to pat LBJ, Wade, and Bosh on the back for taking less than the max to play together, let’s remember that each of our big 3 has signed a less than market value contract to stay here, too, only they didn’t need a nationally televised hour-long special to do it.
July 9th, 2010 at 12:10 pm
Damn good call Joe!
July 9th, 2010 at 12:15 pm
http://www.unionleader.com/article.aspx?headline=Concord%27s+Bonner+re-ups+with+the+Spurs&articleId=587d54f6-bb06-4a60-8fc0-85c828bf54fd
matt boner resigns wit spurs
July 9th, 2010 at 12:21 pm
I’m glad that while all the Legarbage is going on, I can always turn to the Spurs and see how a professional sports franchise and its players should act.
July 9th, 2010 at 12:23 pm
oh boy, Bonner gets a raise and we are stuck with 4 more years of that crap.
If they don’t add real big men, who can play D, just like Timmy asked for, and let Bonner earn all his dollars in the practice facility, then then Pop’s credibility is tanking.
More of Bonner and RJ sharing duties at PF, I hate this.
July 9th, 2010 at 12:23 pm
“Because while LeBron James was the King that the Cleveland Cavaliers bowed down to, Tim Duncan has been the foundation upon which the San Antonio Spurs have pounded the rock.”
this line choked me up.
well said. finest article i’ve seen on this bolg.
48min guys, you all are awsome
July 9th, 2010 at 12:24 pm
Very well said. Once Timmy retires, I’m not sure we will ever see another player of his kind. He truly defines what a superstar player should be. What I love the most about Tim is how he carries himself and he is the most humble player in the league. In my eyes Tony and Manu are right behind Tim. They are superstars as well, but, we are in a time in sports where superstars are made by the media, they unfortunately don’t get the recognition they truly deserve. We truly have been blessed as Spurs fans.
July 9th, 2010 at 12:25 pm
@Zainn
Great! Now that we have the exact same players as last year (minus Mason,Bogans, RJ, and Splitter for now) we can expect to have the exact same results. I really hoped we would make changes this summer, but apparently our FO is content with the status quo. I sure hope I’m wrong with this analysis, but as every day goes by, this is becoming more and more true. Perhaps there’s something cooking that we don’t know about. Our FO is usually tight-lipped about draft and trade developments…
July 9th, 2010 at 12:27 pm
[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by Andrew A. McNeill. Andrew A. McNeill said: LeBron LeGone: An appreciation of the San Antonio Spurs http://dlvr.it/2SzHz [...]
July 9th, 2010 at 12:29 pm
I can’t say I’m thrilled that Boner got a 4 yr deal.
July 9th, 2010 at 12:29 pm
Great post. You did a great job of defining the difference between what it has been like for the Spurs to have Tim Duncan vs. what it’s been like for the Cavs to have LBJ without spewing vitriol about LBJ.
I don’t like what LBJ did, but I’m not going to crucify him. I will root against Miami, but without hate. Also, I will always, always, be grateful for guys like TD and David Robinson.
I do disagree with this though.
“Age prohibiting, it would appear the NBA finals still run through Los Angeles and Boston. The Lakers are still the unquestioned favorite.”
To my mind it’s Miami vs. LA right now with both teams being pretty equal. That’s next year. Once Miami get’s the MLE and LLE going forward it’s all Miami.
July 9th, 2010 at 12:30 pm
The Cavs just became the Bucks- no superstar, no hope of one. Lots of talented, productive players, but no high draft picks, and a roster good enough to be a low seed in the playoffs for years to come.
July 9th, 2010 at 12:31 pm
Born, raised, and still live in Boise, Idaho. Not exactly sure of what it means to live in a professional sports town as I probably never will. For various reasons I’ve chosen certain sports teams to cheer for. The reason I came to the Spurs was seeing one of the classiest basketball players ever, David Robinson. Last night reminded me of why I love the Spurs!
July 9th, 2010 at 12:31 pm
i would be ok with bonner staying if we could move antonio mcdyess. we will bind another big to go with splitter and duncan.
i’m sure retaining matt bonner also insures tony parker stays. what good is matt bonner without dribble penetration. like it or not, we need shooting and we have one of the keagues best in our backyard.
so…..trade mcdyess? get mahinmi back? duncan and dyess need rest this year and we can’t rely on heavy minutes from bonner and blair to sure up the front court.
i am in agreemnet. no more rj at pf, damnit!!
July 9th, 2010 at 12:32 pm
What Abbott does not take into consideration is that Cleveland has now been stabbed in the back by both of the characters he depicts: an egomaniacal owner, Art Model, and an equally egomaniacal player, Lebron James. Abbott goes on to criticize the Cleveland fans for not being more considerate and appreciative of what Lebron James has done for them. Certainly James himself is very enamored of all he has done for the Cleveland fan base, but I for one can absolutely understand why they feel betrayed.
Whether getting screwed by a player or by an owner, the bottom line is that the Cleveland fans have been screwed. Abbot seems to think that getting screwed by a star athlete is somehow more noble. I’m sure this will do little to make Cavs fans feel better. Abbott is just indulging in hero worship, and I’m sure most Cavs fans have been cured of that for good.
July 9th, 2010 at 12:33 pm
@ Daniel
u ever heard of brandon jennings and andrew bogut? that illyasova kid is pretty good
July 9th, 2010 at 12:33 pm
Merlyn rules! TD is an awesome round ball player and he plays Dungeons and Dragons! My favorite hobbies.
July 9th, 2010 at 12:34 pm
Spurs players, brass and fans (in general) have a certain level of knowledge, respect, sincerity and passion. It is a great combination and almost always wins the hearts and minds of classy individuals.
July 9th, 2010 at 12:35 pm
I think that comparing Lebron to Timmy would be like comparing a creek to the Pacific Ocean: Lebron the Creek may be exciting to look at with its flowing water and interesting creatures on the surface, but that’s all there is to it. Deep inside, it’s just a shallow, noisy body of water. Timmy the Ocean, on the other hand, may seem flat and boring, but looking at him at a much deeper perspective reveals a very deep, interesting character filled with sense and strong sense of self-confidence and security. Timmy didn’t need publicity in order to live. I think that like his equally great predecessor, David Robinson, Timmy understands that this is, after all, a basketball game and not a circus.
For a moment there, I really thought that some sort of decency would come out of Lebron, but to have the media - and more importantly, the Cleveland fans - play like pawns to his so-called “Kingship” shows more about the man than his ball-playing. I look at him now and see a very immature kid trying to think that he’s the center of the world.
Don’t get me wrong, though. I understand his leaving Cleveland with the management’s disappointing handling of talents, but I don’t think the Cavs fans deserve to be taken for a ride on this one. Lebron should have at least kept his mouth shut about leaving and just did it without fanfare. I look at Karl Malone when he became a Laker and I understand his burning desire to win a championship ring, but at the very least, he didn’t have to hold press conferences to play guessing game and leave Utah fans high and dry. Maybe the same thing could be said to Shaq when he left Orlando and KG when he left the Timberwolves.
I share the disappointment of the Cavs fan, but at the same time I feel thankful for being a Spurs fan. We have been blessed to have drafted two egoless #1 picks in Robinson and Duncan whose understanding of life is much deeper than their desire for more fame.
July 9th, 2010 at 12:42 pm
Regarding the balance of power issue, it may be too early in the summer to tell yet. If Melo stalls in signing an extension and Denver decides to cut salary and move on rather than face what just happened to Cleveland, or if Nash decides he wants to spend his last couple of years on a real contender now that Amare is gone, or if Paul all-out demands a trade, it’s possible that the landscape could change dramatically between now and opening day. Dallas, LA, and Chicago, among other potential contenders, have the assets to possibly land one of those guys.
July 9th, 2010 at 12:58 pm
Great article.
Winning a championship is always a goal, and from that perspective alone, I understand why LeBron felt like he needed to leave Cleveland. The only problem is, Cleveland was a good team and could have competed for a championship if he stayed. They just had two 60+ win seasons and ultimately fell short because guys did not show up deep into the playoffs. LeBron has quit on his team, he told them his goal was to bring Cleveland a championship, but he failed. I don’t buy that he walked away from the Cavs because he felt like he couldnt win with them, because that makes absolutely no sense. The team won 120+ games the past two seasons.
And I am not so high on the Heat right now. They have four players! they still need to find away to assemble a team(with the little cap space they have) and then devleop it over the course of the season. It is fair to call them favorites, but its far from over. What is on a piece of paper, can’t do anything. So we’ll see as the season plays out. The Lakers still have to be the favorites. At least until Miami gets some size and reliable shooting.
Poor Cavs fans. My condolences go out to you. But the Cavaliers still have some good pieces. They should use LeBron leaving as motivation for maybe a great season and a playoff appearance. Try to build around what you have and make the city proud Cleveland FO
July 9th, 2010 at 1:07 pm
td4life
July 9th, 2010 at 12:23 pm
“oh boy, Bonner gets a raise and we are stuck with 4 more years of that crap.
If they don’t add real big men, who can play D, just like Timmy asked for, and let Bonner earn all his dollars in the practice facility, then then Pop’s credibility is tanking.
More of Bonner and RJ sharing duties at PF, I hate this.”
Hobson13
July 9th, 2010 at 12:25 pm
“Great! Now that we have the exact same players as last year (minus Mason,Bogans, RJ, and Splitter for now) we can expect to have the exact same results.”
Well put guys. I’m not happy with this decision either. It clearly shows a team interested in clinging to the status quo, believing that they can tinker and still stay in contention, or worse, resigning themselves to the fact that the Spurs will just have to accept being a good team, but not a championship contender for the foreseeable future. This is not good news. We cannot afford to spend millions on “wasted” roster spots.
quincyscott
July 9th, 2010 at 12:32 pm
Nice post, quincy.
July 9th, 2010 at 1:09 pm
NO WAY!!! NOT MATT ONE TRICK PONY BONNER!!!! if splitter doesnt come im might cry
July 9th, 2010 at 1:13 pm
Face it everyone, Bonner is just better than anything we could have gotten to replace him (crying on the inside)…
July 9th, 2010 at 1:18 pm
This pretty much summarizes my thoughts on the James issue:
“As the worst idea in the history of marketing unfolded, James looked trapped somewhere between despondence and defiance. His bumbling buddy Maverick Carter had walked him into the public execution of his legacy, his image, and there was a part of James that clearly wished he could turn back through the doors and hide. Only, it was too late. No going back now. James goes to the Miami Heat, Cleveland goes into a basketball Hades and LeBron’s legacy becomes that of a callous carpetbagger……..“His brand is [bleep] now,” one high-level NBA official said late Thursday. “He’s destroyed everything.”
“So there was LeBron James, the MVP, the man of the hour, sitting in the middle of his own “Truman Show” on Thursday night. His personal network ran his commercials and celebrated his greatness and let him hijack a platform to build his brand and break hearts. He can never go home again now, and he can never completely rebuild what he let his cast of buddies talk him into losing that night. He’s taking his talents to South Beach, and the kid going away for the first time will have some party down there. After all these years, it was clear he had been coddled and protected and ultimately prepared to do one thing: Take the easy way out. Wherever he was going, he looked conflicted, lost and completely confused.
What a spectacle, what a train wreck.
What a shame.”
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_ylt=Asi8EcEJKixWXqBHC3fKHD.8vLYF?slug=aw-lebrondecision070910
July 9th, 2010 at 1:20 pm
Jacob
July 9th, 2010 at 1:13 pm
“Face it everyone, Bonner is just better than anything we could have gotten to replace him (crying on the inside)…”
Even if you’re correct, that is a SAD story.
July 9th, 2010 at 1:25 pm
@BDuran
If the Miami Heat get an MLE or LLE then you might be correct. Who knows, it might not matter this year. But a possible (though not definite) flaw to that thinking.
The current CBA is up at the end of this upcoming season and the owners are pushing for a hard salary cap with no exceptions to build teams through. As bad an idea as I think that might be, I doubt that players have learned their lesson in money management and I think that the owners will always have leverage in these situations.
So that MLE, LLE and championships aren’t sure things just yet (though I do acknowledge they’re more likely than they were for the Heat and it was absolutely the right thing to do).
July 9th, 2010 at 1:33 pm
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/sports/miami-heat/sfl-miami-heat-michael-beasley-s070810,0,6830775.story
So now it looks like the Heat have one signed player, four players on the verge of signing, and just about SIX million left to add a required EIGHT more players to the paid roster. Good luck fielding a team that could challenge with 8 player’s salaries averaging under ONE million dollars, and playing with a trio of ego and meglomaniacs.
July 9th, 2010 at 1:42 pm
Ticket760 reporting Splitter deal is done, will sign Monday. Really hope they’re right. About the Monday thing. Always knew he’d sign. Never doubted. I swear.
July 9th, 2010 at 1:43 pm
Bentley
July 9th, 2010 at 12:58 pm
“And I am not so high on the Heat right now. They have four players! they still need to find away to assemble a team(with the little cap space they have) and then devleop it over the course of the season.”
Right on, Bentley.
“Poor Cavs fans. My condolences go out to you. But the Cavaliers still have some good pieces. They should use LeBron leaving as motivation for maybe a great season and a playoff appearance. Try to build around what you have and make the city proud Cleveland FO”
The Cavs aren’t done. Not with Byron Scott as coach. That guy can truly coach. I think he’s greatly under-rated, and was unfairly shafted by the Hornets. He’ll develop players with the right “team first” attitude. A breath of fresh air will sweep through the Cavs team once the stinking ashes from the “King’s” exit disperse out over Lake Erie. Good riddance. We don’t need a KING, we need a TEAM should be the new team slogan.
July 9th, 2010 at 1:52 pm
Jesse,
Excellent point, I hadn’t considered that. A hard, or harder at least, cap would prevent this team from running away from everyone else. I still think that they’ll be very good this year and the favorite in the East.
Jim,
Most players at the end of rotations don’t contribute much anyways so the fact that they need eight more players is exaggerating the issue. They have 5 now. They need 2 to 3 more for a 7 to eight man rotation. Their four best players are all very good. With six mil they can sign one or to more solid rotation guys and fill out the last with vet min guys and still be very competitive. Whatever you think about them personally, the bottom line is these guys are great basketball players.
Also, their egos were no problem in the Olympics. In fact, the media kept harping on the opposite. They complained that people didn’t seem willing to step up and take over like they do on their NBA teams.
July 9th, 2010 at 2:03 pm
Jim Henderson
July 9th, 2010 at 1:18 pm
Excellent post man. Spot on.
July 9th, 2010 at 2:23 pm
I’ve always thought a firmly established team culture was more important than having more super stars in the roster. Cavs spoiled LeBron by letting him too loose and LeBron ultimately let them down big time, ditching them in the dirt.
Yeah and anyone who claims Duncan should take a pay cut or be traded can go to hell too. Duncan stayed loyal and delivered 3 more championships, when he could’ve just bolted for the FA and sign elsewhere. He deserves every f*cking penny he is earning/will earn. TD should retire a Spur even if it means hampering the team’s rebuilding efforts a little bit.
I don’t really like the re-signing of Bonner at such a high figure, but I guess it’s SA organisation rewarding a player who’ve put a lot of efforts for the team, kind of like what they did with Manu last season. That’s understandable and a classy thing to do from non-basketball point of view. Now if only Pop can refrain from using him 15+ minutes…
July 9th, 2010 at 2:25 pm
http://twitter.com/STEIN_LINE_HQ/status/18150359203
Bulls sign Korver. GREAT move for the Bulls. I would even favor the Bulls now over the Heat.
July 9th, 2010 at 2:33 pm
bduran
July 9th, 2010 at 1:52 pm
In my view, you under-value the critical importance of having “talented role players”, and team depth. The Heat will be fortunate to win ONE title in the next four years, a title that they bought in a trend that could end up gutting the league. Also, I believe in Karma, which is not a good omen for the “new Heat”.
Ian
July 9th, 2010 at 2:23 pm
Solid post.
July 9th, 2010 at 3:08 pm
“Once Timmy retires, I’m not sure we will ever see another player of his kind.”
I think we already have one: Kevin Durant. He is a class act, surprisingly self-effacing for his age and talent.
July 9th, 2010 at 3:31 pm
Apparently, first class, winning organizations deserve a blog that suits them.
Great, great post. As always.
July 9th, 2010 at 9:13 pm
Great piece - this is what my ‘final draft’ re this subject would have said verbatim
As a fan i feel fortunate and smile about having tim on the roster - he is a once-in-a-lifetime player to have
tim vs. lebron (for the hell of it): lebron 0 championships. tim 4
gotta love the NBA
July 9th, 2010 at 9:50 pm
“In my view, you under-value the critical importance of having “talented role players”, and team depth.”
No, I think this is very, very important. I just think the Heat are in a very rare situation where they can get by with much less than normal. I think you disagree with how good I think Wade, Bosh, and Lebron will be. It’ll at least be interesting finding out.
July 9th, 2010 at 10:39 pm
bduran
July 9th, 2010 at 9:50 pm
“No, I think this is very, very important.”
Well, they’re VERY unlikely to get it for awhile, so why are you so high on their chances?
July 9th, 2010 at 11:19 pm
Jim,
” I just think the Heat are in a very rare situation where they can get by with much less than normal”
What I’m saying is when they got those guys they started playing by different rules. Depth is less important for them then us, the Lakers, Boston, etc. because their top 3 our so much better. It’s simple really, if their top 3 are significantly better than anyone else’s top 3, then they don’t need as much from the rest of their team as everyone else does. So the question is, do you think they have the best top 3 in the league?
Also, they have become the destination franchise of the NBA so they can do more with there small amount of money than other teams would be able to.
July 9th, 2010 at 11:29 pm
@ idahospur
In a pro sports town/city there’s an omnipresence- billboards & bumper stickers; the logo in neon signs at gas stations and bars. Players appearing at schools, car dealerships, concerts, other sporting events, or pitching products on tv and radio. Paper and magnetic schedules in grocers and liquor stores. Every day you see someone wearing team gear- be it an old man with a faded cap or a young woman busting out of a tank top. Opening night tip off is the first day of school and the last game- be it the end of a 32-50 campaign or a Finals game seven victory -is auld lange syne; the season is a calender year of sorts. But hey-you’ve got a similar vibe with Boise State Football, right?
July 10th, 2010 at 12:06 am
wow,well put. ty so much for your writing!!!!
July 10th, 2010 at 1:51 am
bduran
July 9th, 2010 at 11:19 pm
“Depth is less important for them then us, the Lakers, Boston, etc. because their top 3 our so much better.”
It is a little less important to a point, but they are still going to struggle to find the key role players that “fit”, and also with acquiring sufficient depth. Look at how great our BIG three were in 2005. But we only won that title because of guys like Bowen, Barry, Horry, Mohammed, Rose, and even a guy like Devin Brown was important as an extra shooter off the bench. Many of these guys happened to be very unique players, and were not super cheap at the time. Miami’s available payroll after the big three plus Miller are signed is not a pretty picture. There’s no way they get anything close to our 2005 non-star/role players in terms of quality & clutch play in the playoffs. An to be honest, I don’t put James, Wade, & Bosh that much higher than our big three in their prime, during tense playoff game match-ups. They played less minutes than the Heat big three will play, but that only subtracts from their need of about one role player. I listed one non-star starter & FIVE important role players above. You think the Heat are going to find five role players this off-season comparable to the ones I listed above, for the money they have available, and a center comparable to Nesterovic? If you do, I have a bridge over Brooklyn I’d like to sell you. And by the way, the five non-starters/role players, that we used to support our BIG three in 2005, their combined salaries, when accounting for today’s higher salary cap, came to about 21 million dollars. So along with their five starting player’s salaries, the Spurs paid an additional 21 million in max-cap-adjusted terms for their next five role players. The heat are likely to have just 4 starters signed, and only have about six-seven million left to not only sign their last starter, and 5 additional role players, but their last three reserves they’re required to sign to make the minimum roster of 13 (all obviously signed at about a million or a little lower). Thus, the Heat will have less than a third as much money to sign their rotation players & reserves as the Spurs did in 2005. So the quality of players the Heat will get beyond the top four or five is unlikely to be anywhere in the same ballpark as what the Spurs had when they won the championship in 2005.
And, do you honestly think there’s that big of a gap between our big three in 2005, and the Heats big three now, in terms of how much less money they’ll have to adequately assemble and pay for players 5 through 13 than our big three had? Granted the Heat big three are excellent players. But just remember, one of the reasons that the Heats big three’s stats are more prolific during much of their careers is because they’ve been on teams where they were clearly the best player on their teams. That was never so with our big three (Duncan better, but not by a particularly wide gap). All three of them had their unique strengths and so they distributed the ball well & shared the production fairly evenly. If any of those three when in their prime were on other teams that had a bunch mediocre to good players, they all would have averaged between 20-25 ppg., etc. In fact, Parker averaged 22 ppg. the year Manu was out most of the season. And Manu averaged 19.5 in 2008, in 31 mpg. We know what Duncan has done. In the 2005 title year he averaged 20, 11, and 2.6 blocks. And by the way, there’s no comparison in terms of being an all-around player between Duncan in his prime, and Bosh. Bosh is close to as a good as a scorer, but Duncan performed at a higher level in every other area of the game. Obviously LeBron & Wade have the advantage over TP & Manu in the box scores, but not in the title category, not by a long shot, and they’ve been with good organizations that have at least tried to get them the players to win. Wade won one title while playing along side the most dominant big man in the past 15-20 years, and beat a perennial choke team in 2006: the Mavs.
I’m just saying, the Heat need more decent to special role players than you think to win, and I just don’t see where they’re going to come up with the cash to get them. When the hype subsides people will start to realize that special role players are not going to come to Miami to play for under market value and/or cheap to play with these three egomaniacs.
July 10th, 2010 at 3:08 am
I couldn’t sleep for a few nights back in 2000 when ESPN.com had their title page split with the image of Duncan and Grant Hill. I felt awful, but somehow he stayed and we’ve been blessed as fans.
That said, I can tell you from living in Miami all my life that Wade is a special dude. I really believe in the current state of the NBA, LBJ actually did the right thing. He gave Cleveland seven solid seasons, two MVP’s and a trip to the Finals.
As they were constructed, they were never going to win a long series against the Celtics, Magic or Lakers. The Cavs erred in trying to “buy” a championship and should have gone the route that Spurs alumnus Sam Presti is utilizing in OKC with Durant: build slowly and develop through the draft and with solid role players.
This whole deal doesn’t bother me nearly as much as the Gasol trade. Jerry West leaves his GM duties in Memphis and goes to LA as a “consultant” and in January pulls the all time greatest heist in the organized sports?!?!? The Lakers were a perennial first round loser before that trade.
Kobe’s legacy?!?!? The tirades, the trade demands, the rape…those last two rings deserve a very emphatic asterisk.
This is Pat Riley’s revenge on Stern and the Lakers. Their mission is the demolish Kobe and the Lakers.
Here’s the thing though: with Splitter now in the fold apparently, and TP playing “like a revenge” on a contract year, Manu and TD being the ultimate winners and champions that they are - with a little more tinkering (read another shooter, say Eddie House or someone similar, and Dorell Wright - PLEASE SIGN THIS GUY RIGHT NOW! he can be had rather cheaply) and I honestly believe the Lakers aren’t going to get to the Finals.
One more run for the Spurs in a seriously lighter Western Conference? Yes sir. The FO and Pop are quiet and scheming and this whole affair feels like the classic “under the radar” and “no one gives us a shot so what do we have to lose” vibe of 2003.
Lastly I don’t think we’ve given LBJ the credit he deserves for giving a seriously cool compliment to the Spurs core in that interview and name dropping Robinson, Duncan, Manu and TP. I got a real kick out of that. I honestly believe he respects the game and history more that MJ ever did.
July 10th, 2010 at 6:25 am
This is why timmy is the greatest player of post jordan era.Remember even kobe cried to leave LA until he got what he wanted.Timmy has 4 rings built around him kobe has 2 rings built on him and 3 as shaqs little buddy .i feel for clevland i hope the city get a ring before lebron or legone.But not he has become scottie pippen and well you compare him to kobe well the little buddy kobe cuz if he wins a tittle its going to be on wades team
July 10th, 2010 at 7:23 am
I love the Spurs, and I’m grateful for Tim Duncan, but lets not be so quick to jump on the anti-Lebron bandwagon. The comparison between Lebron and Tim at this point in their careers is apples and oranges. The Spurs were only in position to draft Tim because of a fluke run of injuries. The Cavs had been at best a 2nd tier franchise before James arrived. Duncan had the benefit of playing with The Admiral through the early part of his career, then Tony and Manu later. The Cavs have never given Lebron a single teammate as good as any of those three. The fact is, Lebron did as much for that team as he possibly could. They’d had three 50 win seasons in the 20 years before Lebron got there. With Lebron, that had four. They’d neve had a 60 win season before Lebron. With him, they had two. And he took the to the Finals. So as ugly as the last few weeks have been, lets not forget what impact Lebron has had on that team and the league.
July 10th, 2010 at 7:44 am
The Cavalier fans should boycott the Heat /Cavs games when the Heat come to town. It would have meant much more to take less money from the Cavs so that they could add more talent around you to win your first championship . Thats what Jordan did! James would have truly been a king if he had done that instead of the ego driven move that he made, taking the easy way out. Iam glad that he did’nt come to Chicago!!! We like our heroes Humble yet confident that they can get the job done. Never claiming they are the Greatest, just proving it .
July 10th, 2010 at 7:52 am
One injury and the Heat are ravaged. You can’t replace Wade/Bosh/LeBron with a D-Leaguer and expect to survive for a long time. Not wishing bad luck on anyone, I’m just throwing that potential obstacle out there for consideration.
July 10th, 2010 at 8:02 am
Jim,
I do think their Big 3 our better our big 3 at their peak. Per minute, it’s probably pretty close, but Wade and Bosh average 36 min a game last year and Lebron averaged 39. We’ve been unable to do that. Mike Miller is a better 4th option than we’ve had.
I started writing a long post on how I thought they can get what they need, but honestly, I’d rather just see what they do. They could screw this up and only be a good team but not true contenders or favorites. I don’t like what happened, but I will be watching them put their roster together with interest. After it’s together i think it’ll be a lot of fun to break down and see how good we think they’ll be.
Of course after Splitter has a 23, 12, 3blk, 5 asst season we’ll be taking the trophy home and none of this will matter.
July 10th, 2010 at 8:05 am
What are we going to do when Timmy retires?
July 10th, 2010 at 8:27 am
b duran
There is absolutely no way Splitter puts up those kinds of numbers in his first season. But tht thought of that is nice though.
July 10th, 2010 at 8:30 am
As usual, a good post. I only have one addition, which has been partially addressed by the comments above: Spurs culture cannot be adequately accounted for or described by starting with Pop and Timmy. They’re certainly our last decade, no question. But they both came into a situation that had been largely created by the hard-nosed, unflashy, workmanlike career and character of David Robinson. I still get shocked looking back on his numbers. And there’s little question that much of the Spurs’ ethos (and geography-they would have likely been leaving South Texas if it hadn’t been for his arrival) originated in his approach to both life and the game. We never would have a title without Timmy. But we never would have had the world-class organization for world-class guys like Timmy and Manu to flourish in if it hadn’t been for David.
(Of course, Sean Elliott and Avery Johnson deserve mention, too.)
July 10th, 2010 at 9:12 am
Imagine if their starting 5 was Jason Williams, Dwayne Wade, Lebron James, Chris Bosh, and Shaquille O’Neal!!
They’ve already got Mario Chalmers, Mike Miller, Joel Anthony, Dexter Pittman, Jarvis Varnado, and D’Sean Butler on the bench.
The Heat have to be the NBA favorites next year.
July 10th, 2010 at 9:57 am
Bentley,
“There is absolutely no way Splitter puts up those kinds of numbers in his first season. But tht thought of that is nice though.”
Man, and I thought I was being conservative.
July 10th, 2010 at 11:09 am
Hurm66
July 10th, 2010 at 3:08 am
“I really believe in the current state of the NBA, LBJ actually did the right thing. He gave Cleveland seven solid seasons, two MVP’s and a trip to the Finals.”
Your values and perception are becoming jaded and you apparently aren’t even aware of it.
“As they were constructed, they were never going to win a long series against the Celtics, Magic or Lakers.”
NEVER?!? That’s ridiculous.
“The Cavs erred in trying to “buy” a championship….”
Do you even see your hypocrisy? What do you think the Heat are doing? The three megalomaniacs are playing for charity?!? Give me a break!
“This whole deal doesn’t bother me nearly as much as the Gasol trade.”
Both are not good, but they’re not even comparable. It’s a completely different scenario. Don’t try to make this fiasco look good because of the Laker’s thievery.
“Lastly I don’t think we’ve given LBJ the credit he deserves for giving a seriously cool compliment to the Spurs core in that interview and name dropping Robinson, Duncan, Manu and TP. I got a real kick out of that. I honestly believe he respects the game and history more that MJ ever did.”
He’s like a robot with PR slogans programmed in to what ever he has left for a brain. Do you even know substance when you see it?
Aaron
July 10th, 2010 at 7:23 am
“So as ugly as the last few weeks have been, lets not forget what impact Lebron has had on that team and the league.”
Total hogwash.
bduran
July 10th, 2010 at 8:02 am
“I do think their Big 3 our better our big 3 at their peak.”
I didn’t say they aren’t better, I SAID THAT THEY’RE NOT THAT MUCH BETTER.
“…but Wade and Bosh average 36 min a game last year and Lebron averaged 39.”
In my post I accounted for this. They are entitled to get one less rotation player than we had as a result. It’s very unlikely they’ll be able to do it with the money that they have.
July 10th, 2010 at 4:20 pm
Jim,
Oh I would never compare Bosh and TD. This last year TD was still better than Bosh and I think next year he will be as well. No, it’s more that Wade and Bosh are superior to Manu and TP. I know I’m not comparing the same positions, I just mean that our second and third weren’t as good as their second and third.
“They are entitled to get one less rotation player than we had as a result.”
The extra 14 minutes that they can be expected to generate over our 2005 team is equivalent to one freaking awesome rotation player. So I don’t think the above accounts for it fully. Plus they will be better in the minutes they’ve played. Plus their fourth option, Miller, is better than any of our role players. So this is a big gap. Yes this gap will close as the depth drops up faster than ours did, but I don’t think all the way.
July 10th, 2010 at 4:47 pm
the spurs are the finest franchise ever. they are just a very solid and goodhearted, unselfish team. i mean, when do you ever see the spurs showing off and doing stupid little dances or anything flashy like that? they all play to play and not for recognition.
July 10th, 2010 at 6:50 pm
@bduran,
The Spurs are, and for the past 15 years, have been more than the sum of their parts. The Heat are absolutely better on paper, but how many times have Duncan and the Gang pulled it out the fire versus supposedly better teams. Duncan has been The Man on 4 championship teams, a number not even Bird (3), Bryant (2), Shaq (3) or Kareem (2) can match. The Spurs have two years left of the Duncan window, it’s high time to prove why they are still the Gold Standard of NBA Basketball.
July 10th, 2010 at 6:50 pm
bduran
July 10th, 2010 at 4:20 pm
“I know I’m not comparing the same positions, I just mean that our second and third weren’t as good as their second and third.”
In terms of an all-around player, our first (in his prime) is comparable to their 1st & 2nd, and our 2nd (Manu) is comparable to Bosh. TP is just a small level below their 3rd.
“Miller, is better than any of our role players. So this is a big gap.”
Miller is a very good overall “offensive” player. He is not very good “defensively”. Thus, you are over-valuing Miller, and undervaluing our other two starters, because they were very strong defensively, but limited offensive players (Bowen - all-defensive, 1st team; Nesterovic, 7 ft. tall, solid paint defender - 1.7 bpg., in 25 mpg.). The Heat thus far do not come close to our 2005 team defensively, and defense wins championships. And then our role players are likely to be WAY better than the Heat’s, not just in production, but in terms of character, and all the intangibles. That is a “gap” the Heat are highly unlikely to close.
July 10th, 2010 at 8:06 pm
“not just in production”
Actually, the Spurs have employed some poor producers in their time. Neither Bowen or Nesterovic is a very good producer. The Spurs relied on phenomenal team defense and the very high production from the Big 3. This is of course a good strategy. The Spurs did not have many highly productive players on the roster that year.
From a production point I think the Heat are set. Their top 4 players are highly productive and Chalmers has some potential (good rookie year but had a sophomore slump). They will be able to score efficiently and rebound well. What they need is guys who buy into the system and play Team D. We’ll see what they do.
BTW, I think the Miami’s big 3 have more of an advantage then I originally thought. I forgot that TP had a bit of a subpar year that year. His second lowest TS% since he came into the league. He was still really young and hadn’t peaked yet. I was thinking more along the lines of our ’06 and ’07 big 3.
July 10th, 2010 at 8:24 pm
I just looked at the Wins Produced last year for 5 guys the Heat currently have on the roster. Combined they produced 63.5 wins. This is actually understated a bit because Bosh is listed at Center in the Automated Wins calculation. If you call him a PF you get almost another 3.9 wins for a total of 67.4.
The question is how much does 3 super stars joining the same team reduce production? Dave Berri addressed this in his book and says when a high producer joins another high producer you can expect a drop off, although only a small one. Is this effect magnified with 3 such players? In a recent blog entry he addressed this by talking about the ’96′-’97 Rockets with Olajuwon, Barkley, and Drexler. He said based on the previous year you would have expected 50 wins produced and they ended up producing about 40 for an 80% reduction from expected.
If we say WP predicts 65 wins for the Heat, and 80% reduction brings them down to 52 and there is no way they can make up the difference with the rest of their roster. The would need 10+ wins from the other 8 players and their not likely to get it. However, Berri points out that in the Rockets situation the Big 3 were all at least 33. So how much was not enough to go around and how much was the natural reduction due to age? Certainly both had an effect. It’ll be interesting to see how 3 superstars still in their 20s adapt to playing together.
July 10th, 2010 at 9:07 pm
bduran
July 10th, 2010 at 8:06 pm
“Actually, the Spurs have employed some poor producers in their time. Neither Bowen or Nesterovic is a very good producer.”
Did I say anything about “producing” in the box score? No, I didn’t, because it’s an over-rated way to properly assess many important types of “role” players. Both Bowen & Nesterovic are better defenders than the Heat are likely get outside of their “star” players (and with Bowen, he is actually a better defender than Miami’s best defenders so far, James & Wade). DEFENSE WINS CHAMPIONSHIPS!!
“Chalmers has some potential (good rookie year but had a sophomore slump). Chalmers has some potential (good rookie year but had a sophomore slump).”
He’s VERY inconsistent, and probably not even a bonafide starter for even a “good” NBA team at the point, let alone a championship one.
“What they need is guys who buy into the system and play Team D. We’ll see what they do.”
They’ll need more than that from their 5-9 players, but even accomplishing “that” will be a tall task.
“BTW, I think the Miami’s big 3 have more of an advantage then I originally thought. I forgot that TP had a bit of a subpar year that year. His second lowest TS% since he came into the league. He was still really young and hadn’t peaked yet. I was thinking more along the lines of our ’06 and ’07 big 3.”
We can use 2007, or 2003, when we had Steven Jackson, and David Robinson, it doesn’t matter to me. I’d be very comfortable taking 2003′s Duncan, Robinson, Parker, Jackson, & Ginobli against the Heat’s top five, and again, our role players during our title years are bound to be much better as OVERALL players than whatever the Heat end up hyping into South Beach. We simply had better OVERALL players (1-10) than the Heat are likely to assemble, particularly on the DEFENSIVE end (which ultimately wins championships) in any of these years. By the way, Bosh is nowhere near enough on their front line. He would absolutely get KILLED by any of our championship front lines.
July 10th, 2010 at 9:22 pm
bduran
July 10th, 2010 at 8:24 pm
“So how much was not enough to go around and how much was the natural reduction due to age?”
I would wager most of it was from “not enough to go around”.
Hakeem, Charles, & Clyde were still VERY effective players at age 34, probably similar to TD, but TD has been slowed a bit due to a chronic knee problem.
1996-1997:
Hakeem - 23 ppg, 9.2 rpg., 2.2 bpg., 1.5 spg.
Charles - 19.2 ppg., 13.2 rpg., 4.7 apg., 1.3 spg.
Clyde - 18 ppg., 6 rpg., 5.7 apg., 1.9 spg.
But again, Hakeem & Clyde were AWESOME defenders. James & Wade are good defenders, but they are not AWESOME.
July 10th, 2010 at 9:31 pm
“James & Wade are good defenders, but they are not AWESOME.”
I’m probably under-rating Wade & James defense with that comment above. They are excellent defenders, but I would take Hakeem & Clyde in their prime over them from a defensive standpoint.
July 10th, 2010 at 10:27 pm
“Did I say anything about “producing” in the box score?”
I consider production as things that are more easily quantifiable. Individual defense has proven very hard to quantify, so I tend to refer to it separately when talking about a player. I guess you’re saying Bowen and Nesterovic produce good D. Fine, they don’t produce much else.
“DEFENSE WINS CHAMPIONSHIPS!!”
The Lakers the last two years were 5th in Def. Eff. in the regular season and 7th overall in the playoffs, middle of the pack. In 2006 Miami was 17th in Def. Eff and Dallas 12th in the regular season. They were both much better offensively than defensively. The Spurs have always won with dominant D but not everyone else has. Efficiency differential is the best predictor for future success. Now, given two teams with similar efficiency differentials, I’ll pick the one with better D to win a series so I obviously feel that D is somewhat more important than O, but saying things like “DEFENSE WINS CHAMPIONSHIPS” seems kind of dumb.
“I’d be very comfortable taking 2003′s Duncan, Robinson, Parker, Jackson, & Ginobli against the Heat’s top five”
Robinson was at the end of his career, Ginobili and Parker at the beginning of theirs, and Stephen Jackson has never been good. This wouldn’t be close. I don’t really think you thought this through.
“I would wager most of it was from “not enough to go around”.
Hakeem, Charles, & Clyde were still VERY effective players at age 34″
Absolutely. 3 players producing 40 wins is great at any age. However, all 3 players were better when they were younger (of course) and this does nothing to answer the question, was the drop off from the previous year because there wasn’t enough to go around or because of age? This year will be a very interesting case study.
July 11th, 2010 at 10:43 pm
Great read.
LeBron will never be as appreciated in Miami as much as he was in Cleveland. One Cavs fan said it best, “If he were to win 10 championships in Miami, it would never be as special as him winning one here.”
July 12th, 2010 at 1:57 am
bduran and Jim Henderson
To start of, comparing lineups of the past to lineups of the present is very mundane and not practical. Many factors play a role:
For one this Heat team is still untested and as a matter of fact not even a full roster yet. Wade, Bosh, and Lebron take so much cap space I don’t expect great role players but again its possible.
Secondly, if any of those 3 guys are injured which in this league is very possible. They also cannot be replaced and production is most likely to go down. Injuries are also most likely considering these guys will have to play 36+ minutes in a game with the lack of bench they will have.
Finally, I will agree with Jim Henderson and say Defense does win championships. You are comparing overall defense over the entire season and playoffs. Champions are the ones able to get stops at crucial parts of the game. Miami’s 2006 championship was possible by getting stops at the final quarter making it possible to close them out.
July 12th, 2010 at 3:45 am
bduran
July 10th, 2010 at 10:27 pm
First of all, I assume you are talking about Hollinger’s stats on Def. Eff. Below is how he defines it:
DEF EFF: Defensive Efficiency - the number of points a team allows per 100 possessions.
For these stats of his, I only find them available back until 2002-2003. I wanted to go back a little further, back to the Spurs first title year, so I’m supplementing Hollinger’s data with the data provided at basketball-reference.com. They use the term DRtg. The following is how they define it:
DRtg:
Defensive Rating (available since the 1977-78 season in the NBA); for players and teams it is points allowed per 100 posessions. This rating was developed by Dean Oliver, author of Basketball on Paper. I will point you to Dean’s book for complete details.
It appears that these two separate sources of data are tracking virtually the same data, and just using a different term or label.
Second, I don’t believe looking at defensive ratings in the “playoffs” is very meaningful. It’s not a big enough sample, with a much too circumscribed number of match-ups, which can skew the data. For example, if a given team plays 17 playoff games during any year in the last decade, and 7 of them are against the Phoenix Suns, that’s not going to provide a fair representation of your defense using Def Eff. or DRtg. Also, the “title winner” is really all that’s important here. I really don’t care who comes in second place. It’s irrelevant.
Thus, I will report regular season Def. Eff./DRtg. seasonal rankings for all “title winners” between 1998-1999 and 2009-2010. In addition, I like to cross check this data by using “opposing team FG%”. I believe this measure also gives a solid indication of how well a team defends.
…………..Title Winner …D. Eff…DRtg…Op.FG%
1998-99 - ….Spurs ………………….1st ………1st
1999-00 - …..LA ……………………..1st ……..1st
2000-01 - …..LA …………………….21st …..11th
2001-02 - …..LA ……………………..7th …….1st
2002-03 - …Spurs ………2nd ……3rd ……2nd
2003-04 - …Pistons …….2nd ……2nd …..3rd
2004-05 - …Spurs ……….1st ……..1st ……3rd
2005-06 - …Heat ………..17th ……9th ……7th
2006-07 - …Spurs ……….1st ……..1st …….3rd
2007-08 - …Celtics ………1st ……..1st …….1st
2008-09 - ….LA ………….5th …….6th …….5th
2009-10 - …..LA ………….5th …….4th ……5th
As you can see, out of the last 12 title winners, there was just ONE season where the winner finished below the top third in the league in all three defensive categories, which was the Laker’s in 2000-2001. And there were just TWO seasons out of the last 12 in which the title winner had a Def. Eff. ranking worse than 5th in the entire 30-team league (2000-01 & 2005-06). The 12 title winners were comprised of 6 different franchises. Only the Heat team, and one of the five Laker teams (2000-01) deviated from the norm from a defensive standpoint.
“I obviously feel that D is somewhat more important than O, but saying things like “DEFENSE WINS CHAMPIONSHIPS” seems kind of dumb.”
The data presented makes it obvious that DEFENSE is not just “somewhat” more important than offense in terms of winning championships. DEFENSE has a “much bigger effect” than offense does in terms of a team’s likelihood for winning a championship. “DEFENSE WINS CHAMPIONSHIPS” might be a cliche, but there is a clear element of truth to it, and it certainly is not DUMB. On the contrary, it may in fact be “dumb” to suggest that defense is just “somewhat more important” than offense for winning championships. And since we’re all more concerned with how much defense matters to the Spurs in winning a championship, the data above clearly suggests that it is of great importance for the Spurs to dominate defensively if we plan to win a title. We’re currently 9th in Def. Eff.. We need to crack the top five or it’s a MAJOR long shot that we get another title anytime soon. That will be the key thing I’ll be looking at during this coming season.
July 12th, 2010 at 4:06 am
bduran
July 10th, 2010 at 10:27 pm
“Robinson was at the end of his career, Ginobili and Parker at the beginning of theirs, and Stephen Jackson has never been good. This wouldn’t be close.
The Heat have only THREE good players on their roster. In 2003, Duncan had the best year of his career. He would have destroyed the Heat. Also, I’ll take the great David Robinson that year, even at age 37, against any starting center that the Heat are able to come up with. Defensively alone, he would kick their ass. I will take Tony Parker, even in his second year, at age 20, over any point guard that the Heat are able to come up with. Jackson & Ginobli were 24 & 25 years old respectively, and were very competent players at the SG & SF spot at that time. All but TP were either very good or excellent defenders.
No, I’ll stick with what I said. After the Heat fill their team, I’ll revisit it, but I don’t expect them to sign too many great players with 8 million dollars. And by the way, Mike Miller isn’t signed yet, and he can’t defend anyway.
July 12th, 2010 at 6:03 am
“The data presented makes it obvious that DEFENSE is not just “somewhat” more important than offense in terms of winning championships”
Absolutely not. Since you didn’t include anything about offense in here it says nothing about this. For example, if every team was number 1 in offense then clearly offense would be more important. If every team was 15th then you’d be right. I’ve been meaning to go back and look at the numbers, but haven’t got around to it. I also wanted to have a through efficiency differential in there as well.
BTW, saying most championships teams are in the top 3rd is a defense should not be surprising. Most championships teams have good offense is well, although I believe the average defensive rank is higher than the average offensive rank. This is why I think D is somewhat more important, but efficiency differential is king (although we should go back and look at efficiency differential for all these teams).
“The Heat have only THREE good players on their roster.”
That’s true, if you don’t want to include Mike Miller, but since we’re talking 5 on 5 and one of the best trios of all time, the Heat starting lineup would win. I’m sorry, but 2003 Spurs only had one dominant player, TD. The Heat have two and a very, very good player in Bosh.
Look, clearly i’m not going to convince you. I’m pretty sure the season will, so let’s wait and see.
July 12th, 2010 at 6:15 am
Jim Henderson
July 10th, 2010 at 11:09 am
“I really believe in the current state of the NBA, LBJ actually did the right thing. He gave Cleveland seven solid seasons, two MVP’s and a trip to the Finals.”
*Your values and perception are becoming jaded and you apparently aren’t even aware of it.*
I believe he heard the words that KG said about possibly staying in Minnesota too long. He finally did get his ring, but clearly he gave all he could to the Wolves while he was there. Duncan staying here is part of what makes him extra special.
That said your myopic view is due to clinging to the past. The league has changed a great deal in the last 15 years and a one team player is going to be so rare in any sport. That’s what makes Jeter, Duncan and Robinson etc. so great.
I’ll always remember MJ as a Wizard. Joe Montana as a Chief. But what about Kareem? He won a ring with the Bucks but he will always be known as a Laker. Same thing with LBJ now.
“As they were constructed, they were never going to win a long series against the Celtics, Magic or Lakers.”
*NEVER?!? That’s ridiculous.*
Ridiculous? They had two seasons with the best record in basketball to no avail. What I meant that up to that point, they just never seemed to have enough horses to run through four series’ to win a title.
“The Cavs erred in trying to “buy” a championship….”
*Do you even see your hypocrisy? What do you think the Heat are doing? The three megalomaniacs are playing for charity?!? Give me a break!*
Everything the Heat did to acquire these players was above board plain and simple. While it may appear as a drop in the bucket to you, they DID leave money on the table. (Duncan did too.)
It’s how the Cavs tried to build around LBJ. Look at how Presti has put together that team in OKC. I can see where you’d get your warped perspective on “buying” a championship with Miami, but consider that they still have to build a team around them and with the complicated salary cap issues, you don’t see championships bought like you might in other sports.
From current memory the last couple of attempts to buy a title in the NBA came from the abysmal Lakers team with Karl Malone and Gary Payton and every Mavs team under Cuban.
“This whole deal doesn’t bother me nearly as much as the Gasol trade.”
*Both are not good, but they’re not even comparable. It’s a completely different scenario. Don’t try to make this fiasco look good because of the Laker’s thievery.*
I couldn’t possibly agree with you less. That was one of the dirtiest deals in organized sports. The Heat’s signing these three was again, above board.
You sound, quite disturbingly, like a Laker apologist.
“Lastly I don’t think we’ve given LBJ the credit he deserves for giving a seriously cool compliment to the Spurs core in that interview and name dropping Robinson, Duncan, Manu and TP. I got a real kick out of that. I honestly believe he respects the game and history more that MJ ever did.”
*He’s like a robot with PR slogans programmed in to what ever he has left for a brain. Do you even know substance when you see it?*
Let’s agree to disagree, as clearly you’re a hater. I could hear some Riley-isms when LBJ spoke, but that’s a testament to Riley. LBJ does respect these legendary Spurs and is a known fan of Manu. Best move the FO did was locking up Manu as there was chatter that he was on a very short list of players LBJ would have liked to have as a teammate.
July 12th, 2010 at 8:09 am
hurm66,
I agree with you. Throughout NBA history players have left to join teams in order to win a title. Lebron leaving is no big deal. Yeah Lebron went over the top with The Decision and I think he took his foot of the gas against the Celtics, but these are separate issues. The fact that he moved to take less money in order to play with his friends and win a title (I know Jim disagree with this but clearly Lebron thinks this move helps him with that goal) is fine.
July 12th, 2010 at 10:42 am
@td4life, think of Bonner as 2 or a 3, not a 4 or a 5. I mean, he’s the only guy in the roster (so far that we can count on to camp beyond the arc, wait for a pass from our slashing guards and/or posting up big men, and hurl that baby from downtown. Wish we could trade him for more though.
July 12th, 2010 at 1:05 pm
bduran
July 12th, 2010 at 6:03 am
“Absolutely not. Since you didn’t include anything about offense in here it says nothing about this.”
Since you didn’t provide anything about offense, it is not reasonable to “guess” that defense is only “somewhat more important” than offense in winning championships.
And by the way, it’s pretty hard to expect a team’s offensive rating to exceed a NUMBER ONE rating defensively, and FIVE out of the last 12 title winners had a NUMBER ONE rated DEFENSE!
“For example, if every team was number 1 in offense then clearly offense would be more important.”
You and I KNOW that’s not the case, without even looking at the data.
“…..but efficiency differential is king..”
No, efficiency differential is not king. I don’t care by how many points a team wins by, just that they win the most, particularly when they have to. The fact is, if a team has a great defense, on average, they’re going to get the all-important STOP to ensure victory.
“That’s true, if you don’t want to include Mike Miller..”
Mike Miller has not signed.
“I’m sorry, but 2003 Spurs only had one dominant player, TD. The Heat have two and a very, very good player in Bosh.”
The Heat have TWO very good defenders. The Spurs had FOUR, including two MVP/former MVP “bigs”, that shared 11 first team all-defense, and one defensive player of the year award between them. You apparently just don’t understand the value of defense. You don’t win with just TWO dominant players; you win with 5+ awesome to good players. And the Spurs of 2003 will win that battle with this years Heat. Do you forget how good TP was in his second year with us? He was way better than anything Miami is going to get at the point.
“Look, clearly i’m not going to convince you. I’m pretty sure the season will, so let’s wait and see.”
Yeah, I’m sure the season will convince you that I was correct.
July 12th, 2010 at 1:07 pm
hurm66
July 12th, 2010 at 6:15 am
“I’ll always remember MJ as a Wizard. Joe Montana as a Chief. But what about Kareem? He won a ring with the Bucks but he will always be known as a Laker. Same thing with LBJ now.”
Well, I certainly remember Kareem as a Buck. It was simply AWESOME during his first 6 seasons there. The only reason most people may remember him more as a Laker is because the Laker years are closer to the present, and he played twice as many seasons in LA, playing until the age of 41. Also, Kareem, as you said won a title in Milwaukee, he didn’t need to piggy-back his way to a title as LeBron is attempting to do. The Lakers were 30-52 the year before Kareem came over, and had NO other major acquisitions at the time. To compare what Kareem did to what LeBron’s doing is silly.
“Ridiculous? They had two seasons with the best record in basketball to no avail. What I meant that up to that point, they just never seemed to have enough horses to run through four series’ to win a title.”
Boy, you give up easier than LeBron James! Do you know how hard it is to build a team that can win a title? They don’t all happen like they did for the Spurs when Duncan came to town. That is VERY unusual. The Cavs have been making significant progress ever since LeBron got there. LeBron ought to looking within to find answers as to why they didn’t get over the top in the past two years, instead of blaming others. That’s what real leadership is all about, not choking in the most recent playoffs, and then whining to all his sycophants as he takes his ball and goes to a new neighborhood.
“Everything the Heat did to acquire these players was above board plain and simple.”
Actually, that’s still in doubt, hence a pending investigation into player collusion. That said, my complaint wasn’t that it was illegal, just chicken-shit.
“While it may appear as a drop in the bucket to you, they DID leave money on the table.”
Actually, much of that is merely a ruse, particularly for Bosh & James, because Florida does not have ANY state income taxes.
For example, factoring in tax advantages, LeBron probably ended up leaving about a million per year on the table out of about 19 million per season, which he’ll very likely more than make up for marketing himself in a much bigger market.
“….you don’t see championships bought like you might in other sports.”
Oh really, did you ever look at LA’s team salary? In terms of the Heat, have you ever seen a team ever sign two superstars AND one major star on the same team, in the same year? Most teams that have a shot at multiple titles have THREE stars. Riley knows that, so he’s going to try to piece together a team around those three stars. That is an effort to BUY A TITLE. I think your brain is a bit “warped”.
“From current memory the last couple of attempts to buy a title in the NBA came from the abysmal Lakers team with Karl Malone and Gary Payton…”
Don’t be silly. Those players were over the hill when they signed in LA.
This is what I said:
*Both are not good, but they’re not even comparable. It’s a completely different scenario. Don’t try to make this fiasco look good because of the Laker’s thievery.*
This is what you said:
“I couldn’t possibly agree with you less. That was one of the dirtiest deals in organized sports. The Heat’s signing these three was again, above board.
You sound, quite disturbingly, like a Laker apologist.”
Does accusing the Laker’s of “thievery” sound like an apologist to you? I said the Laker’s & Heat deals were not “comparable”, and neither of them were good for the sport! Got it!
“Let’s agree to disagree, as clearly you’re a hater.”
If I’m a “hater”, you’re a moron. Perhaps we can agree on that.
“LBJ does respect these legendary Spurs and is a known fan of Manu.”
Do you even know what PR is? It’s to say the “right” thing to boost your own “image”. It’s not real, and there’s little substance.
bduran
July 12th, 2010 at 8:09 am
You either have wacky values, appreciate idol-worship, don’t understand what’s good for the long-term health of the sport, or have no idea what you’re talking about on this issue.
July 12th, 2010 at 1:50 pm
“Since you didn’t provide anything about offense, it is not reasonable to “guess” that defense is only “somewhat more important” than offense in winning championships.”
I though we agreed not everything had to be proved with data? I said I “feel” this way because I’m not certain about the relative values.
you said.
“The data presented makes it obvious that DEFENSE is not just “somewhat” more important than offense in terms of winning championships.”
Which is obviously false.
When I get home I’ll look at the efficiency differential of the various champions and see what that says. Maybe I’m wrong, it’s certainly possible. Your data doesn’t say either way.
“You apparently just don’t understand the value of defense. ”
You seem to undervalue everything else. Like how the heat will be extremely efficient on offense and great on the boards. Also, yes Miller isn’t signed but do you honestly think he won’t be? If you want to refuse to discuss him then fine, but I think he’ll be signed so we may as well talk about what we know.
“Do you forget how good TP was in his second year with us? He was way better than anything Miami is going to get at the point.”
I beleive that, although Chalmers is a better defender than TP was at that point, and they won’t need much offensive creation because both Wade and Lebron can run the O. Chalmers may even be better fit for that team than ’02-’03 Parker since with Miller they’ll need D more than a creator at PG. Hill would be the perfect guard for them.
“You either have wacky values, appreciate idol-worship, don’t understand what’s good for the long-term health of the sport, or have no idea what you’re talking about on this issue.”
Yeah these are the only options. Excellent point as usual.
I’ve stated on other threads it would be better for the sport if he played elsewhere. I’ve also said I’m not a fan of “The Decision”. However, I don’t think Lebron has to make his decision based on “what’s best for the sport” and I’m not going to attack him for wanting to play with his friends and do what he thinks will win him a title. Plenty of players have moved on, looking to win a title. It happens. I don’t like the hype around it in this case, but that’s at least as much the fault of the media as Lebron.
July 12th, 2010 at 2:35 pm
bduran
July 12th, 2010 at 1:50 pm
“I though we agreed not everything had to be proved with data?”
I didn’t suggest that you had to “prove” the assertion, just that the claim doesn’t seem “reasonable” without even looking at the data.
“You seem to undervalue everything else. Like how the Heat will be extremely efficient on offense and great on the boards.”
“Great” on the boards? What? With a far from dominant, skinny big (9.4 career rpg.), and 6’8″ & below players?
“Also, yes Miller isn’t signed but do you honestly think he won’t be?”
I think there’s a decent chance because he’d be playing considerably under market value, and if he had any sense of pride, he would reject the Heat hype of how great it will be to play with Wade, James, & Bosh.
“Which is obviously false.”
No, it’s not obviously false.
“However, I don’t think Lebron has to make his decision based on “what’s best for the sport” and I’m not going to attack him for wanting to play with his friends and do what he thinks will win him a title.”
Yeah, I know, it’s a ME, ME, and ME first generation. Who cares what’s good for the professional industry we work within, as long as I can play with my buddies in South Beach, I’m cool. This is not a pick-up game with your boy pals at the city park on a weekend. “Grown-up” decisions have wider implications then what’s simply best for one’s own sense of personal gratification.
July 12th, 2010 at 3:43 pm
“No, it’s not obviously false.”
Yes it is. Not the assertion that D is far more important but this
“The data presented makes it obvious”
The data does nothing of the sort.
““Grown-up” decisions have wider implications then what’s simply best for one’s own sense of personal gratification.”
He works in the entertainment industry and decided to take a job with his friends that he feels give him the chance to succeed at the highest level in his field. I have no problem with that. The fact that you think that anyone who doesn’t have a problem with this has “wacky values” is ridiculous.
July 12th, 2010 at 3:52 pm
““Great” on the boards? What? With a far from dominant, skinny big (9.4 career rpg.), and 6’8″ & below players?”
Two years ago Bosh had 10 and 10.8 even though he’s to skinny to do that.
Lebron average over 7 from the SF spot, Wade 5 from the 2 spot, Mike Miller (yes I’m counting him) about 6.5 per 33 minutes as a 2/3. So yeah, they’ll be good unless they play Joel Anthony at center (couldn’t resist
).
If Haslem returns to the Heat they will be a fantastic rebounding team. I think he’d be smart to go elsewhere but it looks like he’s seriously considering staying.
July 12th, 2010 at 5:17 pm
Well, Haslem said he’s staying and taking $14 mil less ($20 mil for 5 years) to do it and Miller’s agent confirmed that he will sign with the Heat as well. Apparently those guys are really good friends.
So now I guess the Heat have about 2 mil for one more signing? That would give them an excellent 7 man roster, plus their two draft picks makes 9.
July 12th, 2010 at 7:48 pm
bduran
July 12th, 2010 at 3:43 pm
“The data does nothing of the sort.”
It does for people that know, without even looking at the “offensive data”, that there’s NO WAY that title winners over the past 12 seasons were going to have has as many TOP “offensive rankings” as they do for “defensive rankings”, of which there were FIVE.
“The fact that you think that anyone who doesn’t have a problem with this has “wacky values” is ridiculous.”
I guess will just have to agree to disagree.
bduran
July 12th, 2010 at 3:52 pm
“Two years ago Bosh had 10 and 10.8 even though he’s to skinny to do that.”
That’s not very good for a star PF. Duncan averaged 12.5 rpg. between the ages of 23 & 27. Bosh has averaged 9.8 rpg. between the ages of 23 & 25.
“Lebron average over 7 from the SF spot, Wade 5 from the 2 spot, Mike Miller (yes I’m counting him) about 6.5 per 33 minutes as a 2/3″
LeBron & Wade are better than average for wings. Miller’s a career 5.1 rebounder per game - slightly below average for a SF.
“If Haslem returns to the Heat they will be a fantastic rebounding team.”
Even with Haslem’s 8 rpg., they won’t be “fantastic”. Hell, that’s what the Admiral got a age 37, in 26 mpg.
bduran
July 12th, 2010 at 5:17 pm
“Well, Haslem said he’s staying and taking $14 mil less ($20 mil for 5 years) to do it and Miller’s agent confirmed that he will sign with the Heat as well. Apparently those guys are really good friends.
So now I guess the Heat have about 2 mil for one more signing? That would give them an excellent 7 man roster, plus their two draft picks makes 9.”
You call this a championship caliber team:
Chalmers
Wade
LeBron
Bosh
Haslem
Miller
I only count six players, by the way. The two million is not going to buy you an adequate 7th man. They’re lucky if they can keep Anthony, but he’s about as valuable as your average 9th man. Too one dimensional for a 7th man. Their draft picks, two late and/or second round picks, aren’t even close to providing dependable contributions yet at the NBA level?! Perhaps it the SIX to SEVEN vet minimum players they’ll need to sign that has you so excited?
The fact is, they have NO center, and NO depth, particularly in the power positions, which are not particular big as it is (Bosh is barely 230 lbs.; Haslem is barely 6’8″).
So, check back with me at the all-star break. We’ll see where they’re at. They’ll be lucky to be fourth in the East, behind Orlando, Boston, & Chicago.
July 13th, 2010 at 5:18 am
“without even looking at the “offensive data”, that there’s NO WAY ”
Okay, seriously, this? This is a joke right?
“That’s not very good for a star PF”
No, it’s good. It’s no greatest PF of all time which is what you use as a counter example. Probably not a good example to use.
“Miller’s a career 5.1 rebounder per game – slightly below average for a SF”
“I only count six players, by the way. ”
Yeah I counted whoever the signed with the $2 mil. Honeslty, at this point there no need for further discussion, I agree we’ll see.
Sorry meant to say 6.5 over the last 3 years, which is definietly above average.
July 13th, 2010 at 7:10 am
Jim Henderson
July 12th, 2010 at 1:07 pm
Stern just said there will be no investigation, that was just Mark Cuban being his usual sour grapes self instigating.
Florida like Texas has no state income tax and is an appealing factor for free agents. So what’s your point?
You’re just a cynical hard-liner and anyone with a different opinion must be a moron.
Not everyone and everything is about PR and image - hence Kobe paying major respect towards Manu during his documentary film. Nothing in this league gains player respect like winning (and earning) multiple titles.
bduran and I have tried to have civil discussions with you, but you rather aim low.
Let’s take the high road and admit that we don’t agree without the insults since in the end we both really just want the Spurs do well and win another championship in the Duncan era.
Oh, and you’re an idiot (kidding, bygones…LOL)
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