Tuesday, September 21st, 2010...6:29 am
The Spurs’ unfinished offseason
Consider this your morning twofer. R.C. Buford recently told the world the Spurs want to secure home court advantage for the postseason. In the same interview, Buford rehearsed San Antonio’s stipulated goals for the offseason that is nearly behind us.
We wanted to do what we could to keep together a group that had a lot of transition last year and to have a great deal of internal improvement. We wanted to add a big next to Tim Duncan, a wing defender and improve our shooting.
If his statement were a checklist, we could scribble marks next to returning the core, internal improvement, a new big (Splitter) and improved shooting (addition of James Anderson and Gary Neal, along with the return of George Hill and Garrett Temple). In this regard — measuring against the front office’s goals — the offseason was a success. But what about that wing defender?
Since the departure of Bruce Bowen, San Antonio searched for a replacement wing defender, and they’re still looking. The Ime Udoka era was over before it began and Keith Bogans simply couldn’t stick. Richard Jefferson is not a go-to defender. James Anderson doesn’t have the reputation and Gary Neal doesn’t have the size. Unless the Spurs unearth a hidden gem in training camp, wing defender is not a position San Antonio will fill between now and the start of the season.
But I bet the Spurs will keep looking. A dominant wing defender is a vital part of their program, and the NBA’s best teams dare you not to have at least one sturdy wing stopper. In short, you need to slow Kobe Bryant, Kevin Durant and Brandon Roy. And if the Spurs make it to the Finals, they’ll need some poor soul to move between LeBron James and Dwyane Wade.
In terms of backcourt defenders, the Spurs have options in George Hill and Garrett Temple. Both players are above average defenders, but are best suited to hound combos, points, and strict shooting guards. Hill and Temple are too undersized for heavy minutes against, say, Kevin Durant. Players that slide between 2 and 3 on offense test the Spurs’ defensive personnel.
I can’t remember a time when the Spurs had such a long laundry list of unanswered questions prior to training camp. And the question of who will become San Antonio’s go-to wing defender is near the top of the list.
98 Comments
September 21st, 2010 at 8:00 am
Lance Thomas from Duke!!!
September 21st, 2010 at 8:58 am
There was alot of talk about James Gist..? What ever happened to him, is he not coming to camp? I would love to have Bruce back, even if he was a step or two slower than what he had been. He is still twice as good as Keith Bogans…
September 21st, 2010 at 9:06 am
I’m not sure there is a player who can succesfuly match up with Durant’s size and skill set.
Artest did a good job, but we’re talking about an experienced veteran against a 21 year old making his first playoff appearance.
Lebron and Wade also are blessed with a mix of size, strenght and athleticism which separates them from the rest of the top talent.
Bowen never stopped Kobe, in fact I would say that playing against Bruce was a great motivation for Bryant to bring out his best.
In my humble opinion, provided you have a decent defender playing man to man, against top individual talent you can only have success with TEAM defence.
September 21st, 2010 at 9:31 am
Francesco
September 21st, 2010 at 9:06 am
“In my humble opinion, provided you have a decent defender playing man to man, against top individual talent you can only have success with TEAM defence.”
I agree 100%. I don’t buy into having one defensive ace to cure a teams defensive ills. We need the entire team to play better defense starting with the perimeter players like Jefferson, Hill, and Parker. Shot blocking by the bigs is critical to improved team defense. Although Splitter won’t be a great shot blocker, perhaps the presence of another 7footer alongside Tim will help intimidate shots around the rim. This, in itself, will improve our defense.
With the infusion of young players on this team, I really have no idea what to expect from the Spurs this year. Can Blair and Hill take a big leap forward this year? What will Splitter, Neal, and Anderson produce? In 2010 we have a young nucleus of Blair, Hill, Splitter, and maybe Anderson. Can they be comparable to the 2003 Spurs team that had a young, exciting core of Parker, Manu, and Jackson? Only time will tell, but this year could be crazy exciting.
September 21st, 2010 at 10:30 am
This is still my main concern for the Spurs this offseason, a concern that has yet to be addressed (at least publicly).
I wouldn’t mind the addition of Dampier to our frontcourt as an insurance backup, but I want to hear a little more front office talk about a wing defender that we need to attain.
I have lost track of the candidates who are even worth consideration at this point. What are we up against?
September 21st, 2010 at 10:52 am
@Jacob
No one of note is available. In terms of bigs, I guess Dampier and Fes are technically available, but not really.
September 21st, 2010 at 10:58 am
One thing is for sure, you can´t have a rookie or second year player as your best wing defender. The best defenders are players who have been in the league and know the type of moves certain players have. That became evident when Nash owned Hill last playoffs, Hill had every physical tool to slow down Nash but in the end he just hadn´t played against him enough to understand his moves.
So, in my opinion, unless Spurs sign a vet with length and defensive skills, Ginobili is the best wing defender the spurs have. If Hill, Blair, Parker, Jeffererson and Tiago can provide some help in offense, and not letting the Spurs rely on Manu and TD so much, then Manu could be more of a facilitator on offense, saving some wear and tear, allowing him to spend some more time focusing on defense in specific moments in a game ( obviously not all game long).
I really think that as he ages, Manu will become a better three point shooter, expoit his passing skills more, better defender, and less of an attack the rim at any cost player. That should allow him 5 more years as an effective player in the league.
September 21st, 2010 at 11:50 am
What about Darius Miles? I read somewhere not too long ago that the Spurs were working him out. Hes got the height and length for sure
September 21st, 2010 at 12:01 pm
My belief is that Richard Jefferson will be back better than last year. Of course he won’t be the all star caliber player he was in NJ. But he doesn’t have to be.
As pointed out by Pop…RJ had a hard time adjusting to the role the Spurs wanted him to play. But all indications of his past shows that he is a quality SF in the league. I don’t think a player just loses abilities that once were dynamic. Especially when that player once was the #2 go to guy on a championship caliber team and one of the better defensive players in the league at one time.
We’ll see. I understand the importance of having a quality b/u wing at this point since the Spurs don’t possess another prototypical SF. But it appears the Spurs have somewhat a little faith in who they have to play the role of bench wing player with who they have. At least in limited minutes with a specific agenda.
Of course that depending on how well Jefferson does bounce back this year and/or what kind of luck they may have in obtaining that prototypical SF type to back up RJ.
And that is where it gets tricky. The Spurs don’t have any “pronounced as of yet” players to just trade to a team for somebody of that caliber without deminishing the other roster spots they’ve managed to build upon.
It’ll be very interesting to see what (if anything) transpires with Carmelo. I know NJ and NY wants him….but Houston has more of what Denver is wanting for him. And that may lead to an interesting situation regarding Battier.
September 21st, 2010 at 1:13 pm
Big’s still available, I think, and worth looking at:
Mbenga, Boone, Singleton
Wing’s still available, I think, and worth looking at:
Hayes, Simmons
September 21st, 2010 at 1:41 pm
Just for kicks.
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=29allp6
Houston throws in one of their 2 future 1st round picks to Denver that they allocated from the Knicks.
September 21st, 2010 at 1:42 pm
The Spurs will be fine. Jefferson is still in his prime and I certainly believe he will have a better year.
September 21st, 2010 at 2:31 pm
They should of made a run at ROnnie Brewer and Matt Barnes when they had the chance.
But oh well.
I wouldn’t mind Dampier. I know he stinks but he is good at what he does. He’s just a big body in there.
September 21st, 2010 at 2:42 pm
Mbenga, Boone, Singleton are horrible!!! Maybe Dampier but we really need a defensive wing for the last roster spot
September 21st, 2010 at 4:01 pm
Once again i will say to pursue Battier. Expiring contract, a specialist in lock-down wing defense that mirrors Bruce Bowen’s work ethic, affordable, (although elderly) but a veteran none the less.
Is it possible, I don’t know. But I like it.
September 21st, 2010 at 4:19 pm
If there was a way to pry Battier, Mbah a Moute or Sefolosha away from their current teams, I’d be all for it. Failing that, nobody we can get is going to make a big impact.
September 21st, 2010 at 4:32 pm
there is no enough wing players who has that tenacious defense in free agent market ryt now,what bout hayes?but im not contended even if he will be available.i think spurs need to trade now, get tony allen from the memphis.
September 21st, 2010 at 5:01 pm
rob
September 21st, 2010 at 1:41 pm
Decent idea, but you’d have a SF problem in Denver.
mvg03
September 21st, 2010 at 2:42 pm
“Mbenga, Boone, Singleton are horrible!!!”
They are not HORRIBLE for a 5th or 6th big!!!! Do you even look at their stats?! Mbenga gives us size & shot-blocking; Boone gives us a good mixture of decent rebounding & shot-blocking; and the same with Singleton. For insurance “big’s” they are fine players. Their role wouldn’t be to go to the all-star game. Try & gain a little perspective here. Geez.
“Maybe Dampier but we really need a defensive wing for the last roster spot”
Dampier’s probably going to Houston or Miami. And we should get a veteran wing or a 6th big depending on who is the best player available, regardless of position. If it was essentially a toss-up I would go for the wing based on need (as long as he’s a solid defender with good size/length — for example, Darius Miles, although he may be signed by Charlotte). But I don’t think the FO feels that they necessarily need to sign another player at this point. They probably would have already pulled the trigger, although they signed Bogans about this point last year, so you never know. But they’re obviously not just looking for a warm body, and the pickings are certainly rather slim at this point.
September 21st, 2010 at 7:12 pm
We can’t expect a defensive miracle out of RJ. We really can’t expect one of of any if it involves guarding Kobe or Durant. We need someone who has the primary objective of disrupting the rhythm that opposing stars bring. Getting someone to come in for 10 minutes to slow the opposing team will be fantastic.
September 21st, 2010 at 7:15 pm
I love Shane Battier on this job but unfortunately hes not available at the moment. And I think Shane’s playing style in a typical spurs type of game.
September 21st, 2010 at 7:18 pm
Jim Henderson…since your the expert i did look at there stats and i apologize. Mbenga avg 1.4 rb and 0.6 blks a game for his career. Also Singleton avgs 3.6 rb and 0.5 blks a game! For some odd reason they never get any playing time and are currently out of a job. Thanks for your insight!!
September 21st, 2010 at 8:30 pm
please, i’d rather have mcd playing minutes over mdenga or singleton. or even go after damp. our big situation is set in my opinion, just the 1,2 or 3 positions could be more solidified. but I already see a great season out of our team, and seeing us challenging the lakers next season in the playoffs. and the trade. And, if parker inevitably was going to be traded, like at the deadline, then the trade posted earlier by rob would be actually perfect!
September 21st, 2010 at 8:54 pm
Trade for Tayshaun Prince? Though it’s not like we have a whole lot to offer for him. I know Jefferson hasn’t worked out great, but I’m still hoping that he gets more tenacious defensively a la Sean Elliott, now that we have two solid defenders in the paint.
I’ve always been a Wilson Chandler fan but again, what to offer…
September 21st, 2010 at 9:18 pm
@rob, Better yet why don’t we trade Parker and McDyess straight up for Melo? Salaries match up better and no picks would have to be given away.
Besides Chancey is 33 and showing signs of wear and tear. Denver would be getting an all-star/MVP finals PG at 28. And we would get that nasty wing guy we need. RJ can come off the bench for Melo. Wow what a trade that would be. If Memphis is stupid enough to part with Gasol well then maybe Denver is sick and tired of Melo’s whining. We’ll take the Whiner.
Wah! All the way to the finals!
September 22nd, 2010 at 12:04 am
mvg03
September 21st, 2010 at 7:18 pm
“Jim Henderson…since your the expert i did look at there stats and i apologize. Mbenga avg 1.4 rb and 0.6 blks a game for his career. Also Singleton avgs 3.6 rb and 0.5 blks a game! For some odd reason they never get any playing time and are currently out of a job. Thanks for your insight!!”
Not the response I was expecting, but then again, I forgot that you were clueless. NOBODY that has ANY idea of what he’s talking about looks at simply points & rebounds PER GAME when attempting to evaluate an “insurance” 11th or 12th man that averages about 5-10 mpg.
The following are career numbers:
Mbenga: Per 36 mins. - 10.3 ppg., 7.7 rpg., 3.3 bpg.
Boone: Per 36 mins. - 10.8 pp.g., 10.1 rpg., 1.4 bpg.
Singleton: Per 36 mins. - 10.3 ppg., 10.0 rpg., 1.3 bpg.
If you expect more than that out of a 6th “big”, and an 11th or 12th man on the team, I don’t know what planet you live on.
And just for comparison, McDyess as a STARTER for us last season put up the following per 36 min. numbers:
9.9 ppg., 10.1 rpg., .7 bpg.
By the way, Mbenga’s blocks per 48 minutes was 8th in the entire league last year, just ahead of Dwight Howard. In fact, he had more blocks in 7 mpg. than McDyess had in 21 mpg.
So next time, keep your smug remarks to yourself until you learn how to properly analyze production data.
zainn
September 21st, 2010 at 8:30 pm
“please, i’d rather have mcd playing minutes over mdenga or singleton. or even go after damp. our big situation is set in my opinion…”
We’re talking about an “insurance big”, not one to play over Dice IF he and others remain healthy on our front line. If we have an injury to Duncan or Dice (34 & 36 year old’s) we’re too thin on that front line. It should at least be a consideration.
Titletown99030507
September 21st, 2010 at 9:18 pm
“Better yet why don’t we trade Parker and McDyess straight up for Melo? Salaries match up better and no picks would have to be given away.”
Denver’s not going to want to have two very good players that play the same position, and a declining “big” with at most 2 years left.
September 22nd, 2010 at 3:24 am
Go Spurs Go!!
September 22nd, 2010 at 6:23 am
Francesco -
“Bowen never stopped Kobe”????
Please watch the 2003 playoffs again.
Kobe always gets his points, but that was as “owned” as he ever has been.
September 22nd, 2010 at 7:14 am
If healthy, Duncan, Manu, Parker, Tiago, Bonner, Blair, Hill, and Dice are guaranteed to be active. That is 8 of our 12 active roster spots. Note that 5 of those 8 are front court players.
You then have Temple, Neal, and Anderson who should all be locks to on the roster in general. Note all three of these guys are back court players. I don’t know where to put Gee, but personally I hope he is in the group above.
We have quite a few 2-1′s and 2-3′s. Our one true 3, RJ, was unsuccessful at the 4 last year. Our best small ball 4 was actually Bogans. I also don’t really like the idea of Dice, Bonner, or Tiago having to close out blowouts.
My point is whoever we are talking about adding is going to probably be competing for an active roster spot more than playing time. I’d like to see that go to something we sorely lack: A young 4-3 or a stretch 4. They might not be able to contribute anything but blowout and injury minutes this year, but getting Ryan Richards, James Gist, Wilkerson, or another similar type of player into the system seems like the best option by far for the team. Plus these guys can spend some time with Gee on the Toros, who we also want to see win!
Another big question for the Spurs is if Temple is a rotation guy, or a Toros and 11th/12th Spurs type guy. I hope he starts as the 4th guard in the rotation as we work Neal and Anderson in. A team can assign 3 players per year to the DL so let’s say Gee and a player we don’t have signed yet are two spots. If we keep Temple and Anderson on the Spurs all year, we can sign an additional Spurs prospect to develop in Austin. If we sign a veteran, Temple should probably spend some time in Austin to get minutes and to win some games.
September 22nd, 2010 at 7:15 am
I’m currently tweeting about Ike Diogu, whom the Spurs have an interest in…just sayin’.
@varner48moh
September 22nd, 2010 at 7:48 am
Looking up Ike Diogu, he went 9th in the 05 draft. Here are the top 10 picks that year:
1. Andrew Bogut
2. Marvin Williams
3. Deron Williams
4. Chris Paul
5. Raymon Felton
6. Martell Webster
7. Charlie Villanueva
8. Channing Frye
9. Ike Diogu
10. Andrew Bynum
That’s a decent top 10 and shows what kind of prospect he was. It’s really weird he hasn’t ever really gotten a shot. I wonder if no one wanted to develop him at the cost of the 9th pick rookie scale so he turned into a trade asset.
September 22nd, 2010 at 8:01 am
@Scott
“Please watch the 2003 playoffs again.
Kobe always gets his points, but that was as “owned” as he ever has been.”
Scott,
I do not remember the particulars of that series, I believe I was only able to watch a couple of games, but let me ask you this: over a span of about 8 years, having watched Bowen going against Kobe dozens of times, would you say that his impact on defence was the only reason why Kobe played well or not, or was our team’s structured D? Because that was my point.
And anyway, in 2003 we still had Robinson, which coupled with Duncan made it easier for perimeter defenders to play their part.
Don’t get me wrong, Bowen was absolutely outstanding and BY HIMSELF could severely limit regular all-stars, but the Kobes and Durants of this world are something else entirely.
September 22nd, 2010 at 8:01 am
@Tim Varner
Two things:
1) Sorry, I’m drawing a blank; who’s this big, Fes that’s available?
2) What’s your twitter account? Just started using it the other day and couldn’t find you.
Thanks!
September 22nd, 2010 at 8:04 am
@Tim
Nevermind, just found you on Twitter. Still wondering about Fes though
September 22nd, 2010 at 8:11 am
@varner48moh is my twitter handle.
Fes = Kyrylo Fesenko. He’s foul proned, but has good shot blocking instincts. And he’s a big body. I doubt he’d play, except in garbage or injury situations.
Ike Diogu isn’t likely to play either, even if the Spurs signed him. But his ability to hit pop and pick jumpers intrigues me. A drunk optimistic might see visions of him as an offensive replacement for McDyess.
Diogu has had a PER above 15 every year in the league, and according to Hollinger he’s hit on 55% of long twos over his career. He’s had more than a fair share of injuries, but is only 27. Taking one thing with another, he’s as good a 6th big training camp invite as the Spurs will find.
According to ESPN Dallas, however, he hasn’t committed to a camp…the Spurs are merely one “interested” team.
September 22nd, 2010 at 8:17 am
Yes, well I must be the least popular twitterer in the basketball blogosphere.
My goal with twitter, fwiw, is to tweet what amounts to Spurs-related bullets. We don’t have a daily bullet list, and twitter provides a platform to do that sort of stuff in real time. As you know, 48MoH is a labor of love for us, so we’re always trying to improve our blog while maintaining our professional careers. But I’m always looking for ways to provide helpful, thoughtful content for our readers.
The Spurs have graciously provided us with two full season credentials, so we should also be able to do a lot of tweeting from the AT&T Center as well as road games.
September 22nd, 2010 at 8:19 am
@BlaseE
That list either means Diogu is a diamond in the rough or a flop. But at the price his agent is likely asking, it’s worth the cost to figure it out.
September 22nd, 2010 at 8:29 am
From Ike’s Wiki:
“On January 17, 2007, Diogu, whom Larry Bird called the “gem” of the deal, was dealt to the Indiana Pacers along with teammates Mike Dunleavy, Jr., Troy Murphy, and Keith McLeod for Stephen Jackson, Al Harrington, Sarunas Jasikevicius, and Josh Powell.[4]
On June 26, 2008 (draft night), Diogu was traded by Indiana to the Portland Trail Blazers along with the draft rights to Jerryd Bayless in exchange for Jarrett Jack, Josh McRoberts and the draft rights to Brandon Rush to the Indiana Pacers.”
I can see why he might not be able to find minutes in Portland. I find all of this very intriguing….
September 22nd, 2010 at 8:30 am
@ Jim
While I would tend to agree with your idea of adding a Mbenga to the roster, I would have to raise the question about how you argue your point by using per 36 minutes averages. Mbenga and company never played any significant minutes against legitimate competition. At least 80% of their minutes and stats came in garbage time against other 5th and 6th bigs. It’s much easier to grab rebounds, get blocks, and score when every guy on the court is looking to jack up shots.
On the other hand, Antonio’s minutes/stats were gathered whilst playing against the best competition the other team had to offer, for more minutes. Besides, comparing Dice to Mbenga is difficult because they are completely different players. Dice is a pick-and-pop guy who has a delicious 18 foot jumper, while Mbenga is a grunt who bangs around 6 feet from the basket. So naturally, Mbenga is going to be more inclined toward better block stats. It’s also interesting to note that Dice and Mbenga et al have nearly identical points and rebound numbers, even though Dice is battling All-Stars every night and the Mbenga group is battling guys who will be in Europe next year.
I say go for Mbenga. As a 5th or 6th big man, he could give us a lot of flexibility on the roster by giving us a massive body. But leaning on per 36 minute stats without the disclaimer that most minutes are garbage minutes is a bit misleading.
September 22nd, 2010 at 9:25 am
Re: Ike Diogu
Interesting. If we’re filling the 12th roster spot, at that point, all we’re really hoping for is someone that can eat up minutes when called on, especially early in the season. Anything more is a bonus.
From what I remember, Ike is a little undersized (I’ve stood next to him, he’s closer to Blair’s height), but has long arms. He’s a lot like Blair in that respect, but just not as explosive an athlete. He does have a decent face-up game. And looking at his numbers, he appears to be fairly productive on a per minute basis.
However, I like Fes more simply because you know exactly what you’re getting - a big body that can block shots. And against the longer, more athletic teams (Lakers), I think he could help us more than an Ike Diogu. Plus, defense is where I think we need the most help, and adding another deterrent in the paint that our guards can funnel offensive players to can markedly improve our defense from last year. I actually think Fes would get 15mpg on the Spurs.
But then again, Utah will almost certainly match any offer he’s likely to get.
September 22nd, 2010 at 9:29 am
There are rumblings out of Indiana that they are trying to get rid of Dahntay Jones. He was in O’briens doghouse and doesn’t fit his system. Jones is a solid wing defender that could be considered a bruce bowen light type. He does not shoot the 3 well and that would be one concern. But he does shoot ft’s well and plays some nasty perimeter d. Anyone willing to trade for this guy?
September 22nd, 2010 at 9:31 am
Diogu is probably gettable. Fes is far less gettable.
Both players represent value as deep bench options. At this point, I’m eager to see the Spurs’ camp roster. Should be an interesting list.
September 22nd, 2010 at 9:33 am
Matt Bonner for Jones works straight up. Anyone willing to consider that?
September 22nd, 2010 at 10:25 am
Bonner is far more valuable.
September 22nd, 2010 at 10:58 am
ESPN insider saying Trey Gilder worked out with Spurs too..never heard of him. 6’9 forward from Northwestern State, last yr with Grizzlies. And if I read the stats right, he has a total of 2 pts and 1 reb in his NBA career.
I guess we’re running out of options at backup SF..
September 22nd, 2010 at 10:59 am
Actually I guess the source was RidiculousUpside
September 22nd, 2010 at 11:04 am
Plus, I’d rather have Brandon Rush. Younger, cheaper and much more upside than Jones….
September 22nd, 2010 at 11:09 am
The Spurs should look at Luc Richard Mbah a Moute of the Bucks.
September 22nd, 2010 at 11:22 am
With Houston’s supposed growing interest in trading for Carmello Anthony, is there anyway the Spurs could get in on this trade as a way for them to clear up some roster space for either Chase Budinger or Shane Battier? Just a thought.
September 22nd, 2010 at 11:58 am
ThatBigGuy
September 22nd, 2010 at 8:30 am
“I say go for Mbenga. As a 5th or 6th big man, he could give us a lot of flexibility on the roster by giving us a massive body. But leaning on per 36 minute stats without the disclaimer that most minutes are garbage minutes is a bit misleading.”
Which is a better way to compare, pro-rating a 5-10 mpg. guy’s numbers over 36 minutes (even if they’re more garbage minutes), or comparing his total production numbers against guy’s that get 2, 3, 4, 5 … times as many minutes? I think you know the answer to that question. Of course the per 36 minute comparison can’t be used as an “apples to apples” comparison, that’s why I clearly identified my suggested “big” pick-ups as 5 or 6th “bigs” that are essentially “insurance” players (in case of injury), unless they prove otherwise. And in a subsequent post on this thread, I clearly stated that none of these guys would be projected to play in front of McDyess. The per 36 minute comparison with McDyess was merely intended to show the absurdity of “mvg03″ comment that the three players I mentioned were all “horrible” players. The per 36 minute comparison makes my case even when considering the lighter competition compared to McDyess. It was not intended to be a strictly “apples to apples” comparison, and didn’t need to be to make the point. All three bigs I mentioned are decent players that could adequately fill a role of a 6th/insurance big.
September 22nd, 2010 at 11:58 am
Brandon Rush would be good.
September 22nd, 2010 at 12:53 pm
Carmelo Anthony appears to be available.
September 22nd, 2010 at 1:08 pm
For anyone not following Tim’s twitter, Spurs have invited Kirk Penney from NZ who was amazing at the FIBA worlds to training camp. He is a 6′ 5″ shooter. I’m thinking he is insurance in case Neal is a bust.
September 22nd, 2010 at 1:08 pm
Or Anderson isn’t healthy or ready….
September 22nd, 2010 at 1:18 pm
Francisco.you are right ,bowen never stop kobe but kobe forgot to guard bowen in 2007 playoffs,when bruce put up 27 points on him(hahaha) all 3 -pointers.if bruce didnt stop u,he made you shoot more shots to get your points like with kobe.If kobe shot 20 times to get 30 points,he shot 27 times to get 30 points off BOWEN,kobe was only big time scorer who never claime bowen was dirty player or had problem with him
September 22nd, 2010 at 1:22 pm
Splitter, Duncan, McDyess, Bonner, and Blair are a formidable frontcourt rotation, but, given Duncan’s wear-and-tear and his advancing age a sixth big might not be a horrible idea. However, consider before throwing out names like Dampier and the like, you have to think of someone who’s worth burying behind the above 5 players, who will either a) be a good lockerroom presence a la Kevin Willis or b) young guy with upside.
Boone is a decent fit as the latter, Mbenga and Mikki Moore more the former, but I don’t know that is indeed the answer. Granted, I completely agree with the sentiment that we do need someone longer than George Hill to defend SFs respectably. In previous years we had the likes of Mario Elie, Bruce Bowen, Stephen Jackson, Ime Udoka, even Keith Bogans, all of whom met with varying degrees of success. At this point in time, I’m actually most hopeful for a Richard Jefferson/Sean Elliott analogy, but it’d still be nice to have a specialist in the area. While Rob’s trade is intriguing, I don’t know that it’s exactly the solution we’re looking for. Again, I don’t know that we have a whole lot to trade, and I’m not inclined to give up on the Big 3 yet. Ideally, the most available prospect in terms of trade that I’d want is Tayshaun Prince the next being maybe Wilson Chandler. From free agency, Larry Hughes and Damien Wilkins are available, but I don’t know if they’re ideal as they’re a little on the undersized department of SFs. Sasha Pavlovic is another possibility.
Ultimately, I think we’re more in tweak mode more than anything. While the prospect of Battier and Billups are promising, at least in the short term, I’m not sure it’s a solution I want to pursue at the moment. Short of a miracle, I think we need to find those gel guys. There are 2 more roster spots as Hoopshype lists the current players under salary as: Duncan, Parker, Ginobili, Jefferson, McDyess, Bonner, Splitter, Anderson, Hill, Blair, Gee, Neal, and Curtis Jerrells. If I’m not entirely mistaken, one of those spots has already been given to Garrett Temple. So 1 spot left. The big question then is can the new guys (Anderson, Gee, Temple, and Neal) step up defensively (also can Jefferson improve defensively) and/or can Splitter handle extended minutes? Ultimately, it’s a tossup as to which is the bigger issue. If the former then get a defensive journeyman, if the latter than a 6th big might be in order, preferably one that is center eligible.
Here’s who I see in free agency as possibilities:
Wings: Damien Wilkins, Sasha Pavlovic, Desmond Mason
Bigs: Erick Dampier, Primoz Brezec, Chris Hunter, DJ Mbenga, Chris Mihm, Ike Diogu
September 22nd, 2010 at 1:42 pm
Spurs won 50 games with injuries to 2 key players during season and no offensive production from bench guards all season and playoffs except G.Hill
So throw in europe mvp big T.Splitter to front court and i believe we see an improve
Richard Jefferson.Idon’t believe we can ge any worst production from J.Anderson or G.Neal than we got from roger mason and keith bogan.So i believe his eam is better.Rember when when europe mvp Manu Ginobilli came over,spurs won championship!!Fastforward 2007 when europe mvp Luis Scola came to houston,they inproved alot to be contender until injuries to mcgrady and ming stop progress.Fastforward 2010 europe mvp Tiago Splitter,now u see why i have such high hope’s If healthy team and improve R.Jefferson,they are better!! a surprise rookie would help too
September 22nd, 2010 at 2:29 pm
BLASE!! i am sure kirk penney is not insurance for GARY NEAL,because spurs would not given him 3-year guarteed contract,they been watching this guy for last 3 yrs and he was listed 3 or 4 best player’s in europe 2010.This guy is flat out stud who can shoot.Kirk Penney had good tournment under assisant coach from spurs,minus not playing USA team.so he have to have great training camp to make team.
September 22nd, 2010 at 2:32 pm
http://www.3news.co.nz/Spurs-invite-Penney-for-NBA-trial/tabid/415/articleID/177666/Default.aspx
I’m not really sure what the point is here. We’ve already signed Neal to a 3-year contract. From what I understand, they do pretty much the same thing.
September 22nd, 2010 at 2:40 pm
@ Jim Henderson.
When we already have a frontcourt of Tim, Dice, Blair, Splitter, Bonner. Why should we pick up mbenga? if Tim plays around 25 mins, dice 16 mins, Blair 20 mins, Splitter 20 mins, bonner 15 mins, already thats a whopping 96 mins for both the PF and C positions. Do we really need to go over the luxury tax for that insurance 6th big?
And players of mbenga, boones talent can be added on during the season, if someone gets injured, no need to waste a roster spot, not to mention play double (every lux tax $ counts as 2$) for them. A backup SF who can be a defensive stopper is a much larger requirement as of now imo.
September 22nd, 2010 at 2:59 pm
http://projectspurs.com/2010-articles/september/parker-qthis-is-our-last-chanceq.html
Is this the last adventure for the trio Parker-Ginobili, Duncan?
TP: Yes. Personally, I think this will be our last real chance to win a title. Duncan aging. This is our last chance.
September 22nd, 2010 at 3:02 pm
Unless we find some trade options (again I say Tayshaun Prince) I think RC Buford is going to go with a potential based signing.
September 22nd, 2010 at 3:20 pm
nba fan 83
September 22nd, 2010 at 2:40 pm
“When we already have a frontcourt of Tim, Dice, Blair, Splitter, Bonner. Why should we pick up mbenga?”
Let me ask you a question. What would we do if, for example, Dice had a season-ending injury in Jan./Feb. 2011? That’s the point of seriously “considering a 6th big, as mainly “insurance”.
“Do we really need to go over the luxury tax for that insurance 6th big?”
The luxury tax would would be a fairly minor issue with Mbenga (or anyone else) signing for the vet minimum.
“And players of mbenga, boones talent can be added on during the season, if someone gets injured….”
It would be VERY unlikely to get the same level of talent from “out-of-the-league” players at any point during the season.
I’m not opposed to a back-up SF if the right talent exists. Of course he would represent a minor luxury tax issue as well. Either way, it looks like Holt could have to pay about a 1.4% tax (in relation to total team salary) to sign an additional player at the vet minimum. If I was the owner that would be worth it to me to get the team in place for a run, even if the team were to experience a bit of bad luck with an injury or two.
September 22nd, 2010 at 3:23 pm
I agree with Jim that frontcourt depth is an issue, and here is why. McDyess is a quasi expiring deal. If the Spurs make a midseason trade, he’s a likely throw in. Beyond this, one can’t really rest Duncan and Dice by swapping them out for one another. Rather, Pop will need to manage Dice and Duncan’s minutes over the first half of the season.
Plus, there is the possibilty of injury.
September 22nd, 2010 at 4:14 pm
twitter is alive with rumors of James Gist. Said one tweet, he’ll sign with the Spurs on Friday.
@varner48moh
September 22nd, 2010 at 4:50 pm
DNITCH
September 22nd, 2010 at 11:22 am
“With Houston’s supposed growing interest in trading for Carmello Anthony, is there anyway the Spurs could get in on this trade as a way for them to clear up some roster space for either Chase Budinger or Shane Battier? Just a thought.”
From my earlier post…
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=29allp6
Houston throws in one of their 2 future 1st round picks to Denver that they allocated from the Knicks.
Also with the mentions of MBenga and Boone…I’ve mentioned these two players before about a month ago. Both would be more in the line of post defense specialists covering the weak side. Their minimum points would still be a welcomed stat being most would come from cleaning up on missed shots.
And I agree with Varner…
“McDyess is a quasi expiring deal. If the Spurs make a midseason trade, he’s a likely throw in. Beyond this, one can’t really rest Duncan and Dice by swapping them out for one another. Rather, Pop will need to manage Dice and Duncan’s minutes over the first half of the season.”
McDyess can be used as an expiring contract being next year is a team option.
September 22nd, 2010 at 6:11 pm
TP for Felton and Anthony Randolph !
September 22nd, 2010 at 7:20 pm
Or IF New York is in the running as in this report… http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=aw-campquestions092210
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=2eanamd
Defensive SF problem settled with room to outright sign another big.
September 22nd, 2010 at 8:24 pm
I’m okay with giving Gist a shot (he has nice size/length/athleticism), but my question is does he have the lateral quickness to defend the 3 spot as a back-up to RJ?
September 22nd, 2010 at 8:30 pm
Shawn_b
September 22nd, 2010 at 6:11 pm
“TP for Felton and Anthony Randolph !”
I actually wouldn’t be against this deal if NY threw in a 2nd rounder to boot. Felton is a decent young PG and Randolph has potential written all over him. With a new CBA, it is possible that players will be more difficult to move/obtain. Under this scenario, we would want to get all the young talent possible. BTW, we wouldn’t be able to make this deal until December at the earliest since Randolph was traded from GSW this summer.
September 22nd, 2010 at 10:07 pm
Theres always a possibility for injury. Yall are just stating the obvious. i.e. “If Mcdyess gets hurt” or “if Duncan gets hurt”. The point is we dont have a true back up SF! So my point is why would we use our last roster spot on…Yes i said it, “Horrible Mbenga or Singleton!” I think i just hit a nerve with Jim Henderson because somebody questioned his expertise and he didnt like it. Thats exactly why were all here questioning and commenting on this blog and not actually getting paid to call the shots.
September 22nd, 2010 at 10:15 pm
BTW this “6th big” you keep speaking of wont be our “11th or 12th man.” He wont be on the active roster.
September 22nd, 2010 at 11:44 pm
mvg03
September 22nd, 2010 at 10:07 pm
“The point is we dont have a true back up SF!”
I already addressed this issue from my initial response to your complaint about the potential bigs that I noted were still available, and should be “considered”. Here’s the quote:
“And we should get a veteran wing or a 6th big depending on who is the best player available, regardless of position. If it was essentially a toss-up in terms of talent I would go for the wing based on need…”
“I think i just hit a nerve with Jim Henderson because somebody questioned his expertise and he didnt like it.”
Question all you like, just provide some reasonable data to back it up. You “hit a nerve” because you definitively and sarcastically dismissed competent and potentially useful “end of roster” suggestions using faulty production analysis.
“BTW this “6th big” you keep speaking of wont be our “11th or 12th man.” He wont be on the active roster.”
Oh really? Jerrells & Gee are likely to not be on the active roster. The 6th big could very well rotate with perhaps one or two other players among the 11th, 12th, and 13th man (e.g., Neal, Anderson, Temple), depending on the match-ups and injury status of the team on any given night, among other factors. Only twelve can dress & be active for each game; for example, the 13th can be inactive on the bench in street clothes one night, and then trade places with another player and be active the next.
September 23rd, 2010 at 12:12 am
Hobson13
September 22nd, 2010 at 8:30 pm
“….we wouldn’t be able to make this deal until December at the earliest since Randolph was traded from GSW this summer.”
Actually, it’s Felton (a recent free agent signing) that can’t be traded until December 15th. Randolph could be traded to the Spurs “by himself” at anytime, but if he was packaged with other players the team would have to wait 60 days (which has now expired).
http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm#Q88
In other words, a trade of TP to the Knicks would pretty much need to occur between 12/15/00 and the trade deadline, or during the 2011 off-season, unless it was possible for Felton to not be in the deal, which doesn’t seem too likely.
September 23rd, 2010 at 12:28 am
**Correction**
“….need to occur between 12/15/00 and the trade deadline….”
Of course, the date should read 12/15/10!
September 23rd, 2010 at 2:49 am
I saw a lot of Ike Diogu when he was in college. I understand the appeal-he has a lot of skills. He was never the most amazing physical talent but he always had a knack for getting the job done. He was a very productive scorer and tenacious rebounder in a pretty talented league (the Pac-10). But he’s undersized for an NBA big man and not the greatest defensive player. He’s also very similar to DeJuan Blair, as others have noted, but without the upside. So I don’t know how great of a fit he is for the Spurs.
But I’d take him over Josh Boone ANY day. Boone is very, very talented but is both unmotivated and a knucklehead. If you’re looking for a serviceable backup big man who fits the Spurs reasonably well, though, I’m cool with Mbenga.
As for SFs, the more I think about it the less I see Jarvis Hayes or Bobby Simmons fitting here. They’re certainly not going to be defensive stoppers. I’d rather take my chances with Gist. Jim Henderson has also mentioned Bobby Jones a couple of times. He might work out, too.
Still not keen on trading Parker. All-Star PGs are too rare and too valuable, I’m not yet convinced that Hill will be an equivalent producer at that spot, and Felton? I’ll pass, thanks. He’s pretty well suited to D’Antoni’s system, but not Pop’s.
September 23rd, 2010 at 3:10 am
Here’s a thought: get another big and put mcdyess on inactive for first 2 months of the season. It’s definitely a poor use of his 5 mil salary, but he’s a notorious slow starter, so let the youth, and fringe rotation scrap it out early and give our veterans more rest. Probably not great for team chemistry but might pay long term dividends…..(it’s just a half hearted thought)
September 23rd, 2010 at 3:30 am
While on mcdyess- his potential upside has been flying under the radar….though he is an aging vet,
might we not expect more consistency from him too this year?
In terms of lineups, I’m curious what the patrons of this blog think of what the best C and PF combos are. Here’s what I’ve thought of so far ( I’m talking big game lineups and not accounting for specific matchups with other teams):
starting: C- Tim , mcd PF
first sub: tiago to C, Tim to PF
second sub: Blair to PF
situational : bonner Blair and tiago running with Tony and Manu
that’s as far as I’ve got
September 23rd, 2010 at 4:48 am
More on my twitter page, but Marcus Cousin has also been added to the roster. Googlers unite. Gist, Penney and Cousin.
September 23rd, 2010 at 5:10 am
[...] about The Spurs’ unfinished offseason [...]
September 23rd, 2010 at 5:19 am
@ SEANB
According the Sham, Gary Neal is guaranteed this year for 510,000. He is then unguaranteed for about 750K next season and then has an unguaranteed qualifying offer the year after that.
His contract might be easier to get out of then Haislip’s was. I think the 3 years thing is more about the hype he generated at Summer League and less an indicator of the Spurs invested interest.
Still though, you are probably fair to question Penney. The Spurs may be looking at him for the Toros although I’m not entirely sure how they get him there without a Spurs contract.
Last season, the Spurs were killed by their poor outside shooting killing their spacing. Mason made something like $3.5 million. We’re effectively trying to replace him with Anderson ($1.4), Neal ($0.5), and to some degree Temple ($0.8). We know Duncan, Dice, Splitter, Blair, and Bonner are a very solid front court rotation. If Gist is signed on Friday as rumored, he will fill in perfectly in a Ian Mahinmi minutes role. The Spurs do not have the same confidence in their shooters. They can’t leave any stone unturned. If Penney can shoot, he has a fighter’s chance to make the real roster and he’d be another cheap contract. The opposite side of that is that if Neal can’t shoot and can’t earn playing time, he’s gone.
Also, I wouldn’t count Jerrells towards the 15 man roster limit.
September 23rd, 2010 at 8:26 am
@BlasE
I doubt we start the year with 15 guaranteed contracts in the event we want to sign a FA mid-season, or execute a 2 for 1 trade.
You say Gary Neal might be gone if he can’t shoot. Is that because his contract is guaranteed ONLY if he’s on the opening night’s roster (in which case we can cut him before hand without consequence)? When does his contract become fully guaranteed is my question. Or is the first year already fully guaranteed?
If he’s already guaranteed no matter what, his salary figure would still count against this year’s cap (and lux tax) figure if we where to cut him, which doesn’t strike me as the wisest move.
September 23rd, 2010 at 9:44 am
Reply to BlaseE,I dont know who sham is and were he got his information but on spurs official website, along with espn,yahoo sports,fox sports,draft-express and others, he was signed to guaranteed 3yrs contract with no numbers release!!Guaranteed means he being paid no matter what!! numbers you give is 1yr guarantee and 2yr option non guaranteed. I very much doubt he’s even making $510 thousand and leaving alot more money on table in europe,Alonza Gee and Curtis Jerrels is getting 750 thousand if they make team, part guaranteed.Guist is in same boat he has make team for contract valid.There going to be 5-7 players who be in camp trying make team to get guaranteed contract.Blieve me Gneal here to stay
September 23rd, 2010 at 10:08 am
BLASE E ,Draft Epress is even say they spoke to Gary Neal agent who said his contract Guarnteed 3 yrs. READ article on GARY NEAL in draft express.
SPURS are addressing avenues of players they will not have to pay alot to find gem in bunch. before they go out pay more money to experience player.spurs were genius’s with dejuan blair (3yrs) guararanteed very cheap.Tago Splitter they got for 3yrs 10 million,a steal.If James Anderson is steal draft they get alot production from him for 3 yrs like they got in tony and manu contracts when they first came in NBA.SPURS will not go over cap as they have half mid-level exemtion from Splitter and bi-annual exemption
September 23rd, 2010 at 10:33 am
[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by San Antonio Spurs, Spurs Fan Zone, Spurs Fan Zone, Andrew A. McNeill, Timothy Varner and others. Timothy Varner said: Is distinguishing between backcourt defenders and wing defenders part of the super hip positional conversation? http://bit.ly/9ccEZI [...]
September 23rd, 2010 at 11:01 am
@SEANB
Gary Neal’s contract is guaranteed for the first year, while years 2 and 3 are not guaranteed.
A “guaranteed” deal does not necessarily mean all years are guaranteed.
Sham = Shamsports.com - the best, most comprehensive site for player salaries IMO.
Also, Gee and Jerrels are not guaranteed contracts - they are both team options.
September 23rd, 2010 at 11:06 am
@Tim
Bonner at best is our 5th best big man behind duncan, splitter, blair, mcdyess. We currently have no backup sf. Having a backup forward like jones is more valuable than our 5th best big who will get little playing time IMO.
@Tyler
Rush is a better scorer without doubt. I just mentioned jones because there have been some rumblings of him being available. Also I think we need a perimeter defender more than another scorer. We picked up a shooter in Neal and possibly Penny may make the spurs team as well.
September 23rd, 2010 at 11:20 am
Hey anybody for detriot prince last i saw hey was long and determined wing defender.
September 23rd, 2010 at 11:27 am
“That became evident when Nash owned Hill last playoffs, Hill had every physical tool to slow down Nash but in the end he just hadn´t played against him enough to understand his moves.”
Its time to stop considering Hill as a rookie. He will do just fine as a defensive stopper. He wore Kobe out last year. No one stops Durant, Kobe, LeBron, Nash (eh maybe, he’s getting older and has to slow down someday) by themselves - not even Bowen. Some time soon, Hill will understand all of their moves. No one works harder on their game than Hill.
September 23rd, 2010 at 11:28 am
Who is this Cousin guy?? He’s 6′ 11″.
September 23rd, 2010 at 11:51 am
An even better part of Neal’s deal being 3 years for the Spurs is that any buyout would be equally distributed over the remainder of his contract plus the remaining time of this season. This even makes it easier to give him a buyout. Also, you are really only negotiating against the price of the remainder of this season since the last two years are unguaranteed. He could be cut midseason with a 150K buyout if he could make 100K somewhere in Europe. Then he would count about 280K against the cap this season, and only 60 K for the next two. That’s nothing against the cap!
Trust me, Neal has a VERY Spurs friendly contract. They don’t get Tiago to agree to pennies on the dollar and turn around to sign some unproven NBA talent to a 3 year guaranteed contract they can’t jump out of. Neal is a low risk high reward option. Penney fits the same bill, he just doesn’t have a contract yet.
Like the Spurs FO, I think Neal could be a perfect fit, but I wouldn’t put money on him to be better than Mason was two years ago. He isn’t getting Mason’s money either though. We all need to temper our expectations on Neal and Anderson for next year. They are both high potential, low risk options for increased success that are entering the system for the first year.
September 23rd, 2010 at 11:53 am
GitErDun
http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/player/houston/marcus-cousin
September 23rd, 2010 at 12:13 pm
@GitErDun
Regarding Hill, I believe he had trouble with Nash simply because he had a tough time fighting through all the ball screens (and PHX runs just as much, if not more, than any NBA team). Comparatively, Bruce Bowen was always fantastic at fighting through screens simply because he was bigger and stronger at 6’7″ 200 + lbs. With Hill’s stature (6’2″ 180), it’s much tougher to fight through an Amare pick.
Depending on how a team wants to defend the pick and roll, pick and roll defense isn’t just about the ball handler’s defender. Equally important is the pick-man’s defender and the rest of the team defense. For that reason, the other 4 guys on the court are just as responsible as Hill for Nash getting off that series.
Pick and roll defense is one of the more intricate aspects of NBA basketball. For instance, the Spurs probably have over a dozen different ways they defend the pick and roll depending on personnel. You could probably write a fairly lengthy book on the subject.
September 23rd, 2010 at 12:16 pm
Bruce Bowen also had a younger, more spry Tim Duncan behind him, which always helps.
September 23rd, 2010 at 12:21 pm
@Tyler,
+5 points.
The biggest lapse in our defense is Timmy’s decline. He cant simply clean up after everyone anymore.
September 23rd, 2010 at 12:59 pm
I agree.
IMO, as good as Bruce was, I doubt very seriously he’d be remembered as one of the best perimeter defenders of the last 15 years if he didn’t have a guy like TD behind him. Good, yes, but great? Probably not. That’s not a knock on Bruce, but more of a tribute to the greatness of TD.
Having said that, TD is still among a handful of best defensive bigs in the league. He just might not be dominant like he was in his prime.
September 23rd, 2010 at 1:24 pm
Unfinished Offseason.
If Tony keeps saying the things that management doesn’t really like it’s players to say publicly whether it’s local or abroad…offseason jostling just may not be finished yet.
http://www.mysanantonio.com/sports/spurs/parkersanxietya_spursadvantage_103593224.html?showFullArticle=y
“There are indications Parker is open to everything.”
September 23rd, 2010 at 2:07 pm
Jim Henderson
September 22nd, 2010 at 8:30 pm
“Actually, it’s Felton (a recent free agent signing) that can’t be traded until December 15th.”
Good point, Jim. I couldn’t remember if it was Randolph because he’d been traded over the summer or Felton because he was a signed FA that would inhibit an immediate trade of TP. A TP trade may hurt the team this year, but long term I think it would be a good deal depending upon the young talent we got back in return.
September 24th, 2010 at 12:47 am
@Tyler, I gotta disagree. I think Ron Artest has been the only perimeter defender in Bowen’s league since Scottie Pippen was playing. Sure, having TD helped, but Bowen was a nightmare for offensive players all by himself.
I’m a Spurs fan only secondarily- the Suns are my main team, or were until their damn owner came along. Bowen gave Nash more trouble than I’ve ever seen anyone else ever do. Watching him defend in his prime really was a thing of beauty, even when I was cheering for the Suns.
I think a lot of Spurs fans (not saying you, just speaking generally) overlook Bowen’s contributions to the great Spurs teams of the early 2000′s. But I will always remember him as a core part of those Spurs teams and a key reason why the Spurs were so good. It was almost like the Big Four when he was around. He just affected the game in a more subtle way.
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