4-Down Episode 10: What I did on my summer vacation

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The San Antonio Spurs are in the thick of their offseason. And for the last few weeks, I’ve been in the think of my summer vacation. To make up for that, we’re back with a new 4-Down podcast featuring talk about all your favorite Spurs news.

The hits include the NBA Draft, where our own Graydon Gordian was present, and how Spurs basketball is performing during the free agency period. Tiago Splitter is finally, officially, a San Antonio Spur, and Matt Bonner should be in the silver and black for a while.

Tim and I also go into some summer league action and talk about the players that you’d only expect to hear discussed by guys who care way too much about their team.

Make sure to subscribe to the 4-Down Podcast via RSS feed or iTunes. And tell your friends, because we’re awesome.

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  • Jim Henderson

    *** CORRECTION***

    “For example, the Spurs averaged about “1th” in offensive rebounding rate during the three years between 2002-03 & 2004-05….”

    That’s not 1th, it’s 11th!

  • GMT

    Man, I haven’t made a post here in ages, despite being an avid reader. I’ve been busy posting on PtR as Manu ex Machina, but hopefully someone remembers me around here.

    @McShane:

    I’m glad someone got around to correcting the misnomer of Matthews.

    As for your comment on Jefferson’s potential contract, I think that even up to $7.5 mil/year is reasonable. Sure, $5 mil/year would be a fantastic deal for the FO, but 6-7 is still manageable and wouldn’t take away from any potential trade value a bit further down the line. I still have hopes for Jefferson donning the silver & black, and the time he’s been spending with Pop will provide noticeable improvements in our system. I think not only will he have a better handle of the system, but Pop will also be calling plays for Jefferson more as well.

  • http://48minutesofhell.com Andrew A. McNeill

    @ McShane

    Good catch. My apologies everyone.

  • GMT

    No problem, Andrew. You’ve probably just been watching too many Minnesota SL games with the rookie Wesley Johnson. It also made me wonder about what the maximum contract a 1st round drafted rookie can be offered.

  • ribanez1

    Resigning Bonner was not a wise move. He can’t defend and is unable to make shots under pressure.
    His resigning seems t be the only mistake the Spurs have made this summer! Time will tell

  • Jim Henderson

    I predict Brewer will end up in Chicago or Utah. Let’s hope it’s Chicago.

  • Hobson13

    Jim Henderson
    July 15th, 2010 at 7:17 pm

    Jim, I agree with your entire post. First of all, let me say that what is done is done. There’s no taking back Bonner’s 4 year $16mil contract. The idea that most bothers me is that there are a number of fans who don’t seem to see Bonner for what he really is. During the regular season, the Matt Bonner Fan Club couldn’t refute the fact that he doesn’t have the quickness to keep up with 3’s and doesn’t have the size or strength to stop most 4’s in the league. In short, he is a defensive liability. Neither could they refute that he is a subpar rebounder for someone so big. The MBFC’s claim to fame was that he could space the floor and hit 3’s. However, those who defended Bonner because he “spaced the floor” with his 3pt shot lost a great deal of credibility when he laid yet another egg in the playoffs (two years in a row, kids).

    Of course after the playoffs, the Matt Bonner Fan Club simply said (this is seriously one of my favorite excuses I’ve heard in a while) “If Matt were only surrounded by better players and 3pt shooters, he would be more effective.” I guess Tim Duncan, Tony Parker, Manu, RJ, G. Hill, etc. just weren’t good enough for him. I suppose they dragged his game down. Before we admit Matt Bonner is a subpar NBA player, let’s throw everybody else under the bus. This is the classic tactic of when all excuses and logic fail, blame everyone else for one’s deficiencies.

    Bottom line: I really don’t have a big problem with the Spurs signing Bonner. It’s possible that there wasn’t another big man we could have signed for the remainder of the MLE or the LLE. After all, it’s not my money the FO is pissing away. My only concern (and it is a serious concern)is that Pop will revert to what he knows (playing Bonner) instead of giving Blair a chance to wreck havoc on opposing teams through offensive rebounds and energy plays. If Bonner plays 8-10 min/game, then I’m ok with this signing.

  • Jim Henderson

    Hobson13
    July 15th, 2010 at 9:54 pm

    “It’s possible that there wasn’t another big man we could have signed for the remainder of the MLE or the LLE.”

    Anything’s possible, but I find that highly unlikely. Virtually all of the decent free agents are now gone, and yet TWO bigs remain that would be excellent role players in our front court: J. Anthony & L. Amundson. Anyone that thinks these guys are going for higher than 2.4 million are smoking some really heavy shit. Neither player is a good offensive player, and limited in some other ways as well (thus the ceiling on their salary), but they CAN DEFEND. Both are among the leaders in blocks per 48 minutes: Anthony #3 in the entire league at 3.96; Amundson #12, just behind Marcus Camby! They’re both about 6’9″, 240-250 lbs., with good hops, plenty of energy, and are good character guys. Either one would be a perfect fit in the front line rotation in place of Bonner. They both are used to the role of a 12-15 mpg. big off the bench, which would be about all they could get on our line, but they could make an impact on the DEFENSIVE end. OFFENSE was NOT why we didn’t advance last year. No way. We didn’t advance because of DEFENSE, plain & simple. And the fact is, Miami has a measly qualifying offer of a million dollars on the table for Anthony, AND THEY SIMPLY CAN’T AFFORD ANYMORE THAN THAT!! After the HUGE three, they just signed Miller, Haslem, & Ilgauskas. Now they’re fresh out of cash. Vet minimums the rest of the way for megalomaniac Heat. And the Suns have also just signed a ton of players: Turkoglu, Childress, Frye, & Warrick, and they were already a very DEEP team. They probably don’t have enough room or cash (Sarver is a notoriously “cheap” owner), to pick up Amundson for anything more than the vet minimum.

    The fact is, with the Bonner signing, we chose OFFENSE over DEFENSE. The Spur’s, no less! Despite the fact that a top-four rated defense has won the title 8 out of the last 12 years! Last year we were 9th. Is Splitter going to get us to jump 5 or more slots? Somehow I doubt it. And if someone tries to tell me that Bonner makes us a better “defensive” team because he shoots the three well as a stretch 4 during the regular season I think I’m going to puke.

  • Marc

    Hi everyone, also it’s my 1st comment here although i’ve been reading this blog for a loooong time..
    how to begin… if we go back tho the end of the spurs season (directly after suns swept) EVERYONE was asking to remove or trade the trio bonner, bogans and mason… now that bonner is resigned people started defending him making him an amazing player, they start pulling stats from here and there to back up there opinion. why? because he’s resigned? Pop, RC don’t make mistakes? everyone appreciate what they are doing for the organisation, but come on they are still humans, they can be criticized…
    as jim said, how much spurs are loosing when he’s on the floor? rebound, defense and he cannot score…
    comparing him to miller, at leat miller can draw a good defender to him but a rookie can denfend bonner.
    in the podcast his defence was mentioned against nowitski.. well with respect to all spurs players, noone could hold Dirk… he just scored his average and sometimes more. the spurs did a good defence on other dallas players but not on dirk…
    i can understand that bonner is resigned because there’s no other choice or whatever but 4M/year???!!! more than Euro MVP!!! how on earth can this guy be traded later with this salary. spurs couldn’t trade RJ because of his salary comparing to his contribution, now what about bonner? are they planning to keep him forever?
    4M/year for 10 to 12 min/game??!! well that’s the easiest money got from eating sandwiches and STRETCHING the floor…

  • McShane

    @GMT, McNeill - thx.

    @GMT - I was telling my buddies that it would be nice if Splitter left space in the MLE. He did. It was reported somewhere that Jefferson would be taking just a shade more than the MLE, probably $6 mil/year. So, I’m hoping for less again (though this is much less likely because Jefferson will not have another big payday in the future). It seems the Spurs are making a concerted effort to save.

  • ITGuy

    For someone who is the 5th option on the bigs rotation, Bonner sure gets lots of attention here.
    He gets my vote for MCP: Most Commented on Player.

    Go Spurs Go!!

  • Tyler

    As long as Bonner soaks up 10-12 minutes and helps keep TD’s minutes down, he makes sense.

  • duaneofly

    I really like Jim and Hobson’s posts on Bonner.
    & ITGuy, if Bonner got played like he was a fifth big, ie. mostly garbage time minutes, or minutes when a couple guys are in foul trouble, then he wouldn’t be bad.
    However, when he’s playing 18ish minutes a game, a quarter and a half, he hurts us.

  • doggydogworld

    Those of you who dislike Bonner are welcome to your 1200 word subjective essays on his game. But please stop with this crap about his signing somehow affecting our ability to use the MLE or LLE or signing a shot-blocking big or a couple of wing defenders. You’re just embarrassing yourselves.

  • Firebrand

    So according to the podcast our next target ,seeing as Raja Bell has signed with the jazz, is going to be James Jones . I am looking at this guys resume and the first thing that jumped out at me are this guys career shooting .398% and his 3 point .395% …. this reminded me of Bruce Bowen so I looked over at his free throws .861% and realize this might not be so bad. Now one thing I am seeing here, this guy is not a guy that has logged alot of minutes ever and has only played 76 games in the past two years for the previously mediocre heat……is this really our next best option for a shooter and does anyone know if this guy can play d ? If he can then I will feel better about this.

  • Jim Henderson
  • Jim Henderson

    Tyler
    July 16th, 2010 at 7:44 am

    As long as Bonner soaks up 10-12 minutes and helps keep TD’s minutes down, he makes sense.

    Not if we want to improve our defense. And without a significantly improved defense, we’re not going do any better this year than we did last year.

    duaneofly
    July 16th, 2010 at 7:54 am

    “…..if Bonner got played like he was a fifth big, ie. mostly garbage time minutes, or minutes when a couple guys are in foul trouble, then he wouldn’t be bad.”

    The problem is, nobody in their right mind is going to play a player in that way (‘mostly garbage time minutes”) & sign him to a 4-year 16 million dollar contract.

    doggydogworld
    July 16th, 2010 at 8:05 am

    “Those of you who dislike Bonner are welcome to your 1200 word subjective essays on his game.”

    Subjective? I used statistical data on past performances to point out that Bonner is more of a detriment than a help to this team if it wants to win another championship. Now, obviously, there’s a decent chance that I’m wrong about this (going against an FO with a very good track record), but I’d like a detailed, reasonable, logical explanation as to why I’m wrong. For example, WHY are we getting away from DEFENSE?!? Bonner weakens us defensively over other choices around the league for a 5th big. NOBODY can argue against that. So, I ask again, why are we getting away from defense with the Bonner re-signing? “Defense” is what has clearly been our trademark as a franchise that has allowed us, in a small market, to win FOUR titles in the past 12 years! We need as many very “good defenders” in our rotation as possible, and Bonner certainly DOES NOT help us do that.

    “……his signing somehow affecting our ability to use the MLE or LLE or signing a shot-blocking big or a couple of wing defenders.”

    I NEVER SAID THAT!!!!!!!

    I said we should not have signed Bonner - SAVED THE MONEY AND ROOM IN THE ROTATION - and sign instead a WING & a SHOT-BLOCKER/DEFENDER for the 5th BIG!!!

    You’re embarrassing yourself with your faulty critique!

  • Hobson13

    doggydogworld
    July 16th, 2010 at 8:05 am

    “Those of you who dislike Bonner are welcome to your 1200 word subjective essays on his game.”

    I agree. Let’s not allow facts to get in the way of some people’s irrational love affair/fascination with a subpar player. Matt’s probably an interesting cat and a cool dude to have a beer with, but that doesn’t make up for his lack of ability on the court. I’ve said my piece on Bonner. If he plays 8-10min/game, I won’t say a thing. If Pop relies on him for 20min/game, the team has a serious problem.

    “But please stop with this crap about his signing somehow affecting our ability to use the MLE or LLE or signing a shot-blocking big or a couple of wing defenders.”

    I’m not sure I ever made that argument. You must be referring to someone else…

  • Jim Henderson

    Hobson13
    July 16th, 2010 at 1:59 pm

    “If he plays 8-10min/game, I won’t say a thing. If Pop relies on him for 20min/game, the team has a serious problem.”

    I’m basically stuck with assuming that tact as well. But do you really think Bonner’s going to only average 8-10 minutes? I certainly wouldn’t bet on it, not for 4 million per year. The Spurs are into “value” role players/acquisitions. I doubt 8-10 minutes of Bonner would be good value because it’s not enough time for him to get into a shooting rhythm to maximize his contribution (3-point shooting). He’s not like Vinnie the “Microwave” Johnson, or something.

  • Firebrand

    I would like to point out that the Spurs have over paid for a player before who at the time was more qualified than Bonner but overpaid in a way that is about equal to his talents I am talking about Malik Rose. We gave Malik a huge contract 7 years 42 million and not long after traded him. While Bonner’s contract is not exactly a huge contract it is possible that the Spurs signed him just to have as a trade asset further down the line if his shooting touch or defense come up lacking or if some one more palatable becomes available. I have no doubt that some team would sign Bonner so it might as well have been us. I know I said I was done for the day … I lied.

  • Jim Henderson

    Firebrand
    July 16th, 2010 at 3:14 pm

    Not a particularly compelling case for signing Matt Bonner.

  • Half Man, Half Practice Squad

    Love or hate Bonner, let’s make one thing very clear that Andrew has been pointing out repeatedly (listen up BALLHOG and Jim Henderson). Bonner’s contract had NO IMPACT on the Spurs salary cap position this year. He was not signed with the MLE or LLE or any portion of it. The Spurs were over the cap before and after the signing. He was signed using the so-called Larry Bird exception. In short, here are the two scenarios that were available to the Spurs:

    (1) Not sign Bonner. They would have they remaining MLE left over after Splitter and the LLE, along with as many minimum contract exceptions they need to fill out the roster.

    (2) Sign Bonner. They would have they remaining MLE left over after Splitter and the LLE, along with as many minimum contract exceptions they need to fill out the roster.

    There is no difference besides having Bonner on the roster. Peter Holt’s wallet is the only thing that matters here, along with potential future cap implications.

    So please stop talking about picking up a different player in the place of Bonner’s contract. It wasn’t possible. The Spurs could, and still can pick up someone using the remaining MLE or LLE or minimum contracts, and they can resign Jefferson. Bonner’s contract didn’t affect that at all.

    Now, if the argument is that Bonner will inevitably take PT away from more deserving players because Pop has a man crush on him… I hear you. But stop talking about using the $4 mil on a different player.

  • Jim Henderson

    Half Man, Half Practice Squad
    July 17th, 2010 at 7:43 pm

    “Love or hate Bonner, let’s make one thing very clear that Andrew has been pointing out repeatedly (listen up BALLHOG and Jim Henderson). Bonner’s contract had NO IMPACT on the Spurs salary cap position this year.”

    Can all you guys please try to get this through your head: I NEVER SAID THAT SIGNING BONNER HAD ANYTHING TO DO WITH OUR CAP SPACE!!!!!!!!!!!

    “In short, here are the two scenarios that were available to the Spurs:

    (1) Not sign Bonner. They would have they remaining MLE left over after Splitter and the LLE, along with as many minimum contract exceptions they need to fill out the roster.”

    EXACTLY, and this the choice that I would take, because I don’t want a guy I’m paying 16 mil. for four years on my team that can only shoot a 3-pointer during the regular season. His main function would be to take a rotation spot away from a better defender and/or overall player that we could very likely get with the 2.4 mil. left of the MLE, or the nearly 2 mil. available with the LLE. The fact is, we still NEED to upgrade our perimeter “D”, three-point shooting (particularly in the playoffs), AND interior “D”/shot-blocking. The Bonner signing is likely to preclude us from filling these holes because number one, he doesn’t truly fill ANY of them himself, and number two, he’s apparently penciled in as an 8th, 9th, or 10th man, which would in effect take away a top-ten rotation spot for at least one of the potential pick-ups with the MLE/LLE. It is very unlikely that the Spurs envision giving Bonner spot minutes as an 11th man, otherwise they would not have resigned him for 4 years at 4 million per. Now, if the Spurs (Holt) are interested in giving Bonner that contract to eat peanuts on the bench so that both the MLE/LLE guys can be ahead of him in the rotation, than yes, Bonner’s signing is irrelevant, especially if the Spurs brain trust can use Bonner’s salary as a “charitable write-off’!! But we know that’s not the case.

    “There is no difference besides having Bonner on the roster. Peter Holt’s wallet is the only thing that matters here, along with potential future cap implications.”

    That is correct, and that makes no sense to pay him that kind of money to sit on the bench. Plus, it very well could impact our cap space in a meaningful way in the coming years.

    “So please stop talking about picking up a different player in the place of Bonner’s contract. It wasn’t possible.”

    I NEVER SAID THAT. And please do not suggest otherwise without quoting me IN CONTEXT to back up your assertion.

  • Half Man, Half Practice Squad

    @Jim,

    (1) Stop taking things so personally.

    (2) You said: “and sign instead [of Bonner] a WING & a SHOT-BLOCKER/DEFENDER for the 5th BIG!!!” That implies that the options of signing Bonner and a “wing & a shot-blocker/defender” are mutually exclusive. They are not. If I misconstrued your post, my deepest apologies-take a deep breath and chill out.

    (3) You leaped to a similar conclusion in response to doggydogworld’s post. He said “please stop with this crap about his signing somehow affecting our ability to use the MLE or LLE or signing a shot-blocking big or a couple of wing defenders.” You assumed he meant you and responded with an all-caps, exclamation-point-laden rebuttal. The world, and likewise this blog, doesn’t revolved around you.

    (4) L. Amundson… Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

    Good day, sir.

  • Jim Henderson

    Half Man, Half Practice Squad
    July 18th, 2010 at 12:05 pm

    (1) Stop suggesting that I don’t understand something without good reason. You’re far from the only one that does this, so don’t take it personally.

    “(2) You said: “and sign instead [of Bonner] a WING & a SHOT-BLOCKER/DEFENDER for the 5th BIG!!!” That implies that the options of signing Bonner and a “wing & a shot-blocker/defender” are mutually exclusive.”

    It does not imply any such thing. You’re reading more into it then there is. It clearly indicates that I do not believe adding Bonner as a 10th or 11th man is worth it for 16 mil. over 4 years. It’s pretty hard to get any impact out of a SIXTH big, which is what I would want Bonner to be if I had my way, and use the shot-blocker/defender as my FIFTH big. So, I said “INSTEAD” of Bonner, because I wouldn’t want to spend 4 mil. per year on a SIXTH big that can ONLY shoot three’s, during the regular season, and would rarely play. I hope that’s clear enough for you.

    “(3) You leaped to a similar conclusion in response to doggydogworld’s post.”

    I didn’t leap to anything. Doggy leaped to the conclusion that I “didn’t understand the salary cap” and suggested that J. Anthony was without a doubt, not a realistic option, and that Miami all along KNEW FOR A FACT that they were going to re-sign him, and that the Spurs (and probably the rest of the league) ALSO KNEW FOR A FACT that Miami was going to give Anthony a contract that was more appealing than anyone else would care to offer. I contend that WE SIMPLY DON’T know that, and we could have found out by simply forcing Miami’s hand by offering him 2.0 to 2.4 mil per contract and see what happens.

    “He said “please stop with this crap about his signing somehow affecting our ability to use the MLE or LLE or signing a shot-blocking big or a couple of wing defenders.” You assumed he meant you and responded with an all-caps, exclamation-point-laden rebuttal.”

    I didn’t ASSUME anything. Here’s doggy’s post. As you can see, he meant ME, there’s NO assumption here.

    ” doggydogworld
    July 17th, 2010 at 11:36 am

    @JimHenderson – “The point is, nobody knew for sure what the Heat’s intention was with Joel Anthony over the past 2 1/2 weeks of free agency.”

    “Often in error, never in doubt”, eh? Lvmainman schooled you on this one because he understands the salary cap. You say the Spurs might have nabbed Anthony for 2m “given Miami’s tight-rope of fielding a competitive team with the cap space they had left.” But cap space was never a factor in deciding how much to pay Anthony because Miami kept his Bird rights.”

    Look toward the end on the most recent thread as of 7/18 if you want to follow that debate. But the point is, I wasn’t “assuming” anything, and I had every right to defend my post from unwarranted criticism.

    “The world, and likewise this blog, doesn’t revolved around you.”

    Nor you.

    On Amundson: that gives away your understanding of the game (or lack there of). LOL!

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