Monday, May 17th, 2010...6:57 pm
A new foundation or fresh coat of paint?
The thing about predicting endings, do it long enough and eventually they will prove pretty accurate some day. Tim Duncan and the San Antonio Spurs have made fools of such scribes for so long most are afraid to write the eulogy until after Duncan and Gregg Popovich ride off together into the sunset.
If ever anyone earned such respect it’s Tim Duncan. But it has been three seasons since the San Antonio Spurs last won a title, and for the first time since being eliminated by the Dallas Mavericks in 2006, there are no major injuries to pin the blame on.
As I said in my previous post, anytime a team is swept a busy summer should be expected. Over the next few weeks we at 48MoH will be exploring each member of the roster and how they fit in with the Spurs moving forward, but before any offseason speculation can begin one question must be answered.
Have the San Antonio Spurs taken the core of Tim Duncan, Manu Ginobili and Tony Parker as far as they can go as viable championship contenders?
My initial response is no. The logical one? Maybe. Realistically? It probably doesn’t matter. Even if they prove incapable of winning another NBA Championship, Duncan, Ginobili and Parker likely still represent the San Antonio Spurs best chance to.
Tim Duncan is the Window: Building for now, not the future
Carpe Diem, quam minimum credula postero.
Seize the day, trusting as little as possible in the future. Most are familiar with the first part of the quote, “seize the day”, but the lesser known second part asks that it be done because tomorrow holds no promises.
Head coach and Spurs architect Gregg Popovich often cites the Utah Jazz as his own blueprint for building the team, the difference being Tim Duncan as a superior centerpiece to Karl Malone.
And the Utah Jazz, under head coach Jerry Sloan, have been a competitive ball club for the better part of three decades. But here’s the dirty little secret: even the Utah Jazz bottomed out before landing the rights to Deron Williams. Even the best of dynasties eventually fall, and Bill Simmons said it best:
Look, you can’t stay on top for more than a decade without getting a top-three lottery pick or having Chris Wallace trade you a top-three lottery pick. That’s just the way this league works.
The San Antonio Spurs were fortunate, landing Tim Duncan on a ready made team thanks to a season of fluke injuries and the bounce of a few ping pong balls. Their fortune extended through equal parts luck and great scouting with Manu Ginobili and Tony Parker representing top-three draft talent as late finds.
But these are exceptions to the rule. The San Antonio Spurs will hit the lottery within the next decade with the hope that they are bad enough, in the right year, for it to matter and prevent an extended stay.
But right now? With these guys? Tim Duncan, Manu Ginobili and Tony Parker are still good enough to win a title. They may not be the prohibitve favorites anymore, but a chance is all you can ask for. And against the Phoenix Suns the San Antonio Spurs still scored over 100 points and they did it solely on the backs of the Big Three. It was the rest of the roster that failed them.
Given health, you still take Duncan, Ginobili and Parker over Steve Nash, Amare Stoudemire and Jason Richardson.
The new realities of Duncan, Ginobili and Parker
As difficult as the season was, if anything can be taken away it’s that Tim Duncan and Manu Ginobili are still capable of producing as elite players for at least half a season.
Of the three, it was Duncan’s decline in pick and roll defense that represented the biggest vulnerability to the San Antonio Spurs. Because Duncan is the untouchable soul of this franchise, it’s an issue Gregg Popovich will have to work through instead of replacing the problem.
One solution would be to find a versatile, lengthy defender who can fight through screens. One of Bruce Bowen’s most underrated strengths was fighting through screens to the point where the Spurs rarely had to switch on pick and roll coverages. Finding a similar player would lessen Duncan’s responsibilities in these situations.
The other solution is rest.
For Duncan, the plan of attack has been to limit his minutes in the regular season to load up in the playoffs. But he may have reached the point in his career where it does not matter how much you save his legs in the regular season, a dropoff will occur the moment he starts hitting the 40-minute mark.
If this is the case, signing Tiago Splitter becomes imperative, because as far as Tim Duncan is concerned it needs to be 30 minutes of hell and 18 minutes of heck from his replacement.
The other part of the equation is Manu Ginobili, who showed last season through three months that he can still be one of the top 10 impact players in the NBA.
Realistically, it’s on Duncan and Ginobili to be the elite players for three months of the regular season. It’s Popovich’s job to make sure those three months come playoff time.
Part of that will be again turning the reigns over to a healthy Tony Parker. Parker struggled through injuries for most of the season, but even if the previous season represented his peak, by the end of the playoffs Parker was at least back to some form of his All-Star self.
However, there are questions emerging from sources outside the organization regarding Parker’s future status in San Antonio.
The hardest part of breaking up
The key to the offseason lies in Richard Jefferson, whether it be through his improvement in the Spurs’ system or, more likely, what the San Antonio Spurs can acquire with Richard Jefferson’s expiring contract.
Like all general managers, R.C. Buford will listen to calls regarding Tony Parker, but any deal for Parker would have to be one that shores up all of the Spurs weaknesses (frontcourt defense, shooting and a defensive wing) without transforming the heart of the Spurs offensive strengths (guard penetration) into a new weakness.
This is not the Dallas Mavericks, who feature so many redundant pieces on their roster that trading one player does little to change the dynamic of the team.
Each of the San Antonio Spurs Big Three own a skill set that is completely unique among the rest of the roster. Tim Duncan provides the inside presence that balances out the offense, Tony Parker provides the dribble penetration and easy baskets, and Manu Ginobili-well, better writers than I have tried and failed to explain everything Ginobili does.
Even in the unimaginable best case scenario of a sign and trade for Chris Bosh, the San Antonio Spurs would need a point guard included that can approximate what Parker brings to the team unless the plan is to run Ginobili out for 35-plus minutes a night.
Sizing up potential trade partners, it would have to be a team that can put an extension in place Parker would want to sign-if a team is after an expiring contract, why not just take Richard Jefferson’s larger deal?
Such teams would be those who feel Parker puts them over the top, and that being the case, they are not likely to send back a player of equivalent talent or gut their depth because doing so would render their acquisition meaningless.
Trading for younger, developing talent is also ill-advised. By the time such a player would reach the All-Star level needed for the Spurs to contend, it would be too late for Duncan.
The offseason primer
Despite being swept, the San Antonio Spurs are not too far away from contention. Remember that the Phoenix Suns current advantages were acquired in the second round (Goran Dragic), trading bad contracts for bad contracts (Jason Richardson and Jared Dudley) and minimal contracts (Channing Frye and Louis Amundson).
The Spurs have some room to grow internally. George Hill and Blair will be counted on for bigger roles next season. Between Malik Hairston and Garrett Temple, there is the possibility of one rotation player. And I’m not opposed to Ian Mahinmi returning if it can be done on the cheap.
The San Antonio Spurs also own the 20th pick in the draft and, according to Ridiculous upside and Chad Ford, are working out Xavier Henry and Paul George.
Armed with the midlevel exception (which is likely going to Splitter) and the bi-annual exception, the Spurs have enough to find two more rotation players. Which is enough.
Because it’s not like the Spurs need to reinvent the wheel, just replace some of the spare parts. What they have can still work, even if it’s only for a brief amount of time.
Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero.
180 Comments
May 17th, 2010 at 11:10 pm
um i’d love to keep all three of those guys but unfortunately by doing that we’d never be able to fill the voids on this team due to the moneys they are owed. parker has 1 year left. if we cant reach a reasonable extension a trade is mandatory. i’d hate to lose him to free agency. duncan is now the center. we need an athletic pf that can rebound and play pick and roll “d”. rj i havent quite declare him a bust but for $14mil a season…not good especially with his inconsistancy defensively/3′s…we need more depth at that position…i’d keep rj if we could bring in a raja bell type. if not he needs to be restructured or ousted. we also need a better shootin guard off the bench…ROGER MASON where’d ya go???….his threes of last year wouldve made life a lot easier especially for rj…but whatever happens we cant be clingy just because of a false hope. we have to think outside of the box and we have to gain more athletic ability on this team. we need youth with potential that can be complentary players off the bench.
May 17th, 2010 at 11:53 pm
Whats the bi-annual exception? and can the spurs trade up in the draft and how would they go about that? cheers
May 18th, 2010 at 12:19 am
I think it takes more than a fresh coat of paint for this team to be serious contenders. We lack a good big to help Duncan, a decent bench player or two, and a pair of three point shooters. It was evident that the Spurs had neither the firepower nor the defensive stopping power to beat the Suns. If you look at the lakers-suns game 1, you see that offense reigned supreme. Outside of the big 3 (which were eratic during the playoffs) the Spurs had only 1 other player on a nightly basis (either RJ or Hill) who could create and score. This simply isn’t enough to beat either of those teams.
On top of this, the last several seasons have been marred with either Duncan running out of gas, Manu’s ankle being screwed up, or Tony not being 100%. At this point in their careers (especially Manu and Tim) what are the chances of them going through a full season without injury especially if they have to play heavy minutes to keep the team afloat? We have ZERO cap space which means we can either sign the same role players of Bonner, Mason, and Bogans, or we can trade an asset. Let’s realistically look at our options:
Tim Duncan - The thought of trading Tim is insane. Forget loyalty. Forget the fact that he is still an All star caliber player. Forget that he is still one of the top 5 bigs in the league. Who the hell wants to take on an aging/declining player who has 2 years and $40 mil still on his contract? Answer: not many teams out there especially if you consider the lower salary cap. He’s not an expiring contract and due to his age, he’s not a building block. You can’t trade Tim.
Manu Ginobili - I suppose Manu could theortically be traded, but it wouldn’t be an easy sell. In the past two years, Manu has only been great for the last three months of the 2010 regular season. His injury history is a problem. His contract, while not outrageous, is still rather large especially if you go out to the last year when he’ll be almost 36. On top of this, due to the large SA Hispanic populace that worships him, he has more monetary value to the Spurs than to most other teams in the league.
Richard Jefferson - I love that the Front Office took a big risk this last summer. I truly admire their effort, but this guy has arguably been the biggest high profile acquisition bust in Spurs history. He never fit the offensive system and even after months of playing would at times look lost on the defensive end. RJ’s only saving grace is that he could be a nice salary cap dump to a team like Golden State or perhaps Minnesota. The most realistic scenario would be to trade RJ for spare parts and a decent prospect at the trade deadline. But how effective can we be by trading him for a number of players half way through the season. Team chemistry would undoubtedly suffer.
Tony Parker - All these rumors about Tony are either ESPN simply trying to stir up crap or Tony is really looking to leave. All of you Parker lovers need to look no farther than the success we had during the month he was out. I understand this occurred for a number of reasons, but the facts still remain. Parker got injured and players like Manu, Temple, and Hill stepped up to the plate. I understand he had a subpar season due to his injuries and that he will probably come back bigtime this next year. However, that is a mixed blessing for the team. He will inevitably want a large contract after playing so well. Can the Spurs organization pay him? Do we want to pay an aging Parker? We sure as hell can’t afford to see him walk for nothing. Also keep in mind that while Parker is only 28, he has a lot of miles on him. How long will his blazing speed hold out? Once that is gone, he is no longer a serious offensive threat.
Conclusion: I think Parker is the best asset we have to lure another all star caliber player or several decent bench players to the Spurs. We desperately need to upgrade our frontline and Parker could be the key. It is a erroneous to believe that a championship team needs a great PG. Just look at the Lakers. They compensate for a weak PG with an incredible front line. This, I believe, can be done in San Antonio. We need to return to the “Twin Tower” days and add another talented big, plus several decent role players in order to get back into contention.
P.S. Even if we sign Tiago, the most realistic way we reload is to sign and trade Parker or RJ for 2-3 good players.
May 18th, 2010 at 6:06 am
@Hobson 13
I agree with your assesment of needs, but I disagree with our analysis. Spurs lack an athletic big and 2 perimeter jump shooters.
I think moving RJ can be done if the Spurs are smart. The problem is he needs the ball in his hands, he is not a guy who can get 15 pts of 7 touches. On the spurs thats a problem. However, with this summer free agent sweep stakes, I could see a team that looses a big name free agent inquiring about getting RJ. If the spurs could trade him for a big man who can move (aka not bonner) and a decent three point shooter, that already takes care of 2 needs. I dont think this is an unrealistic idea.
While everyone wants to praise Pop for this season, I have consistently pointed out this might be one of his worst coaching seasons I remember. It took him all year to figure out the line up pairings, when it was painfully obvious some things did not work. He also alienated the teams 3rd leading scorer and best 3 pt shooter from a season ago (Mason) on a team that desperately needed his shooting.
I think the best moves for the spurs is to move jefferson for 2 wing players or an atheletic big and a wing, even if they are not as talented, they might be more effective. Sign Splitter the the Mid level, and then use the draft to add a consistent jump shooter at the 3 position. Trading parker would be a huge mistake.
May 18th, 2010 at 6:27 am
Adding Splitter is the entire key to the offseason. Another young, competent big man (and he could be more) would provide TD with more rest going into the playoffs. Add a solid draft pick that can give us 15 minutes/night and some organic growth from Hill, Blair, Hairston, Temple and possibly Ian, and we should be a better team next year.
I hope the FO listens and considers all our options (even those that require us to move one of our cornerstones). And if a no-brainer comes are way and we’re able to improve our team, then we should go for it. But as we’ve learned from the past, major personel changes don’t always equate to more wins. The Spurs system is a peculiar machine and even the best looking parts won’t always yield the best results (cough…RJ…cough).
I tend agree with Jesse - the big 3 still give us the best chance to win a ring. It’s the role players around them that failed this year. Another big man and 3pt shooting are our two most pressing needs.
May 18th, 2010 at 6:34 am
I think to say that the Spurs took off because Tony Parker got hurt is completely misguided. They started to play well before Parker went down. The roots of their improvement started in February when Manu Ginobili started to play well.
If the Spurs could afford Parker and Richard Jefferson, why wouldn’t they be able to resign Parker without Jefferson? I don’t think Parker is going to age drastically in the next three years. That’s the window. If you’re going to trade Parker it needs to be for an established star AND some role players that fit some needs.
The Spurs are no longer a post team. Their biggest strength is dribble penetration off Parker and Ginobili. If you trade Parker, you need more dribble penetration. All those role players are not going to do any good if they get no open shots, and teams rarely double Tim Duncan any more.
Trading Parker would be a mistake. And again, if you think it’s impossible to move RJ for helpful pieces, the Suns moved the horrible contract Boris Diaw and Raja Bell for the better fitting Jason Richardson and Jared Dudley.
May 18th, 2010 at 6:58 am
We need to do a sign and trade with Toronto for Bosh send them Tony and RJ (his expiring deal makes it sweeter for them) or Blair whichever they prefer…bring Splitter over and draft Paul George he will be a stud at 6’8 can shoot and jump out of the gym…and again we will be contenders for real…these are the best moves we can make during the offseason
May 18th, 2010 at 7:30 am
One thing I’m wondering about, and would definitely be thinking about if I was Splitter, is would he want to come over here to be a bench player? Even if he gets 25-30 minutes a night, would be be ok with that?
May 18th, 2010 at 7:46 am
None of the big free agents are goin to come to the Spurs. Bosh would never do that deal. Jesse makes a good point, this is no longer a low post team, nor is it a league where that is neccesary. As currently built, you need two low post guys who canget u about 15 pts and explode every now and then. Duncan/splitter/mcdysse/blair can definately provide that.
The reason for the spurs struggle came down to 2 things. Speed/defensive problems and consistent jump shooters (the lack of one). Splitter and perhaps (if cheap) bringing back mahimi with the development of blair (i went to pitt he can be a 15 & 10 easily), takes care of the front court.
The jump shooters are the problem, with parkers injury he was unable to elevate enough to hit his jump shot like he did in ’08, and the speed wasnt there to blow buy defenders who pressed him. Ginobli and hill are good jump shooters but u need two more. This is where RJs contract comes in.
If a big team looses a key player to free agency, they may be willing to give up a couple perimeter shooters in order to attain RJ who on a team where he gets the ball more can be effective. The spurs dont need another big time scorer bc hill has emerged as that fourth threat. They need 2 guys who can hit some shots.You can get one in the draft and one from a trade for RJ.
As i see it, the spurs have 4 guys capable of puttin of totalling about 60-70 pts combined on any night (Manu, TP, Hill, Duncan). Mcdysse, balir, splitter could easily combine for about 15 pts or so. Now throw in one or two win players who can hit some threes…say they total ten pts. Thats 95 pts. And, with a more athletic team (only one some what slow center in duncan, and the rest of the team capable of playing active defense) the spurs could get back to their defensive ways.
May 18th, 2010 at 8:13 am
Bosh would most certainly play for us next to a hall of fame coach and player plus he is from Texas would get a chance to compete for a title and get paid …why wouldn’t he do it?…plus he has already hinted he wanted to be closer to home on his twitter its a no brainer…we just have to pull the strings to make it happen but he would be all for it most definitely…sorry but duncan,splitter,mcdysse,and blair just won’t get it done dude.
May 18th, 2010 at 8:59 am
Renato
May 18th, 2010 at 6:06 am
“I think moving RJ can be done if the Spurs are smart. The problem is he needs the ball in his hands, he is not a guy who can get 15 pts of 7 touches.”
I agree that Jeffeson needs his shots in order to score. I do hope you are correct in stating that RJ could be moved long before the trade deadline. However, RJ’s trade value has never been lower in his entire career.
“However, with this summer free agent sweep stakes, I could see a team that looses a big name free agent inquiring about getting RJ. If the spurs could trade him for a big man who can move (aka not bonner) and a decent three point shooter, that already takes care of 2 needs.”
Richard Jefferson is hardly a consolation prize for those teams who lost out on the big 2010 Free Agents. I would love your comment to be true, but it’s simply a fantasy. He just got finished having his worst season since his rookie campaign.
Jesse Blanchard
May 18th, 2010 at 6:34 am
“I think to say that the Spurs took off because Tony Parker got hurt is completely misguided. They started to play well before Parker went down. The roots of their improvement started in February when Manu Ginobili started to play well.”
Hold on, Jesse. I never said that they took off because Parker was out. My point was that while Parker was out, the team more than compensated for him with players like Hill, Temple, and Manu. This proves that Tony CAN be replaced. BTW the Spurs went 6-5 in february with two close wins over bad teams. Manu may have begun to play well, but the team sure hadn’t.
“If the Spurs could afford Parker and Richard Jefferson, why wouldn’t they be able to resign Parker without Jefferson?”
Fair point. My debate on his next contract is length. A 5 year deal keeps Parker until he’s 34. No thanks. Anything less than that and I could see him bolting.
“I don’t think Parker is going to age drastically in the next three years.”
We’ll just have to agree to disagree on this one. I don’t think he’s the same player 2 years out.
“Trading Parker would be a mistake. And again, if you think it’s impossible to move RJ for helpful pieces, the Suns moved the horrible contract Boris Diaw and Raja Bell for the better fitting Jason Richardson and Jared Dudley.”
If we could keep Parker and trade RJ for 2-3 good bench players, then count me in. However, I’ve already laid out my arguments against this possibility and any more banter on RJ would belabor my point.
“Their biggest strength is dribble penetration off Parker and Ginobili. If you trade Parker, you need more dribble penetration”
Dribble penetration is definitely a team strength. However during the 16 games in which Tony was out (9 were road games) the Spurs went 11-5 against super tough competetion. On top of this, they scored 100+ points 8 times. These stats do not suggest that the Spurs had trouble scoring due to lack of dribble penetration.
May 18th, 2010 at 9:20 am
“Dribble penetration is definitely a team strength. However during the 16 games in which Tony was out (9 were road games) the Spurs went 11-5 against super tough competetion. On top of this, they scored 100+ points 8 times. These stats do not suggest that the Spurs had trouble scoring due to lack of dribble penetration.”
The problem is that right now we have 3 guards on whom we can rely on on our roster right now. If we trade Tony that leaves Hill and Manu and we want Manu only playing about 30 minutes a game in the regular season. Also, the more Manu has to run the show while on the court to harder it is on him. So to me trading Tony means we need at least a decent point guard back in return or we’re counting on one of our youngs guys to step up which I’m hopeful for but don’t want to count on. This means any trade involving TP needs to return a big or wing, depending on Splitter, and a point guard. This seems difficult to me.
May 18th, 2010 at 9:37 am
In a word NO.
Keep it going baby.
You say that they can’t blame in on an injury this season, but I will.
Manu just wasn’t the same after the broken nose.
He sliced the entire league and all of a sudden Grant Hill slowed him down?? Yeah right. No offense to Grant Hill. Come on we all know the “new” Suns don’t play D. That D just gave up 128 to the LAKERS. Bottom line if MANU played like he did up until he broke his nose then SPURS would have won. He’s the engine, how he goes the SPURS go.
You said it yourself the team started playing good when Manu did. Even though they won the MAVS series MANU still wasn’t the same. The won that one because they actually played tough D and George Hill stepped up.
That is why they need to hold onto the big 3. THey need shooters!!!!!! Plain and simple. Plus Splitter would be nice.
May 18th, 2010 at 9:53 am
Spurs Targets
MLE- Tiago, Ty Thomas, I. Bouroussis, Salmons, M. Miller
BiAnnual- Kyle Korver, A. Morrow, R. Bell, R. Brewer, Mo Evans
I’d put money on that.
May 18th, 2010 at 10:18 am
@ duaneofly
If we sign Splitter, it’s my guess that he gets the starting “center” position. He’ll start alongside Duncan and will help take a load off him on the offensive side. McDyess and Blair will come off the bench to spell those two and Bonner would be used in situational lineups. McDyess has shown that he can come off the bench and wreak havoc (look at his last season in Detroit).
The key to this off-season will be Splitter. If we can get Splitter, the sky is the limit. It’s not the only way to get into contention, but it’s probably the best.
We also need a small forward too. Either to backup RJ or start and RJ comes off the bench with Manu. Imagine a second unit that consists of Blair, Manu, Jefferson, and McDyess. They spell Duncan, Splitter, Parker, Hill, and a defensive SF. That would be an awesome team…
May 18th, 2010 at 11:19 am
Great article!
I’m just curious why Splitter is going to get the full MLE when he was drafted 27th? Shouldn’t he get 27th pick money? I like PHXSpurs’ idea of going for Kyle Korver.
Although for the draft wouldnt it make more since for us to go after someone like Damion James instead of Paul George? Definitely gives us the athletic wing we need if RJ doesnt stick around and a fantastic rebounder.
May 18th, 2010 at 11:55 am
@hobson 13
My point was not a team like the knicks. I was thinking of a team that looses a free agent. Like miami or cleveland or toronto.
My point is this…with enough touches RJ could put up 20 a night. If you loose a guy who took up alot of touches, u might be interested in signing one who could do something with those
May 18th, 2010 at 12:00 pm
jordan, good idea. next season we should bring manu back to the bench but bring rj with him. rj wasnt aggressive enough but also blame popp. this was his worst coaching job of all the seasons he has been here. didnt he say last off season that with that much talent, that if they didnt win it all that he should get fired? im not saying fire him but he has a lot to be blamed for this past season. in the past he would sometimes take responsibility for losses, ne never does that now. his job is to get the players in the best possible position to succeed, did he do that with rj? rj has to play alongside manu, period. tp and g.hill is good combo but start along side a tallish defensive minded sf. if we can get splitter, (its crazy cause many spurs fans say this but we dont really know how he would do over here) plug in a couple of pieces, and do a better coaching job, we can win it all and still contend for a few years.
May 18th, 2010 at 12:14 pm
Actually, if a team decides to take on RJ during the summer, it would be more likely to see if they can flip him in February than it would be as a consolation prize.
May 18th, 2010 at 12:27 pm
Well done Jesse. I will be interested to read the remaining segments.
A couple of items to flesh out with the mix:
1) I cannot discount Ginobli’s broken nose as a factor in the second round. It certainly effected his Manu-ness against the Suns. Without his full leadership, so went the ship.
2) I tend to lean towards the line of thought which has RJ heading out of town. Any player who is still talking about adjustment issues in the Spurs system come early April has other issues in the way of his development. I agree that his game is just a little too RJ centric.
3) Watching all of those Suns front line players prance around TD clearly defined the Spurs three big weaknesses (front court help, a solid wing defender and consistent three point shooters). Splitter, McDyess’s second year and Blair’s second year should task the first issue. I’m quite unsure about the other two?
I do have faith in Pop and RC that they are willing and able to fix the team’s ails. I do not sense this group is ready for pasture. There is another one to two seasons left in them for sure.
The mantra up and down the roster should be “let’s win one for Timmy”.
May 18th, 2010 at 12:29 pm
There’s no way a few spare pieces is going to beat Kobe, LO, Gasol, Artest and Bynum/Fisher in a 7 game series. I don’t know how the Spurs do it without gutting the team, but just adding a few pieces will get us 50+ wins and another 2nd round exit.
May 18th, 2010 at 12:33 pm
Renato
May 18th, 2010 at 6:06 am
“If the spurs could trade him for a big man who can move (aka not bonner) and a decent three point shooter, that already takes care of 2 needs. I dont think this is an unrealistic idea.”
You’re not going to get a good enough three-point shooter and “big” man for RJ in the OFF-SEASON. These types of players don’t grow on trees, I’m sure you’re aware. So, give me some examples of who you would want, and who you think you could get for RJ?
“He also alienated the teams 3rd leading scorer and best 3 pt shooter from a season ago (Mason) on a team that desperately needed his shooting.”
Mason was NOT the third leading scorer last year. He was 4th. I blame some things on Pop this year (like not developing/playing Hairston more), but RMJ’s implosion is on RMJ.
“I think the best moves for the spurs is to move jefferson for 2 wing players or an atheletic big and a wing, even if they are not as talented, they might be more effective.”
Again, it is VERY unlikely that we could move RJ in the OFF-SEASON to fill the needs that you mentioned with players that would sufficiently benefit our team. Again, if you disagree, give me some examples.
“Adding Splitter is the entire key to the offseason. Another young, competent big man (and he could be more) would provide TD with more rest going into the playoffs. Add a solid draft pick that can give us 15 minutes/night and some organic growth from Hill, Blair, Hairston, Temple and possibly Ian, and we should be a better team next year.”
With that scenario, better team, perhaps. Good enough to “truly” contend for a title? Unlikely. And don’t forget to add in another slight decline in TD. Also, a number 20 pick giving us 15 solid minutes a night, especially in the playoffs, is not particularly likely.
“I tend agree with Jesse – the big 3 still give us the best chance to win a ring.”
It’s not a good enough chance, and keeping the big three as they continue to decline is a recipe for non-playoff years in a few years. I care about more than just having a REMOTE chance of winning another title with Duncan. I also care about us fielding a very competitive team out into the future. I don’t buy the inevitability of decline as a team, until you get yourself in the lottery for a year or two. That is no guarantee either. Too often lottery picks end up being mediocre players, and sometimes busts. The title of the main post presents a false choice: there is something between “new foundation” and “fresh coat”. We should be employing a “rebuild on the run” strategy, going after young players that show promise through a trade of either TP or Manu to a playoff team on the verge. I think trading Manu offers us the best value without disturbing our basic system as a team too much. An adjustment yes, but not as big as if TP left. George is NOT TP, and the point guard is a fundamental position, for just about any team.
Jesse Blanchard
May 18th, 2010 at 6:34 am
“….if you think it’s impossible to move RJ for helpful pieces, the Suns moved the horrible contract Boris Diaw and Raja Bell for the better fitting Jason Richardson and Jared Dudley.”
The Suns moved TWO solid players that we’re performing well (RJ is ONE player, not performing well), and got JRich’s BIG contract, coming off a subpar season, and the as yet, unimpressive Dudley. Analysts and Suns fans were skeptical, if not flabbergasted with the the deal at the time. Looking at it now, in hindsight, it has thus far worked out for the Suns. But the fact is, they were lucky, and the same with the acquisition of Frye. And they’re still not good enough, as we’ll see in the Laker series. So sure, the Spurs could get lucky in pick-ups for RJ, but I wouldn’t count on it.
BOSS
May 18th, 2010 at 6:58 am
“We need to do a sign and trade with Toronto for Bosh send them Tony and RJ….”
Problem is, the Raptors already have two very good point guards (Calderon, Jack), and an excellent SF (Turkolu). This does not help them. They need a POWER guy, just like us.
Renato
May 18th, 2010 at 7:46 am
“The spurs dont need another big time scorer bc hill has emerged as that fourth threat. They need 2 guys who can hit some shots.You can get one in the draft and one from a trade for RJ.”
Again, you’re not going to be able to get TWO excellent, clutch three-point shooters, that can deliver in the playoffs, when it matters, for RJ, and with a draft pick.
bduran
May 18th, 2010 at 9:20 am
“…..to me trading Tony means we need at least a decent point guard back in return or we’re counting on one of our youngs guys to step up which I’m hopeful for but don’t want to count on. This means any trade involving TP needs to return a big or wing, depending on Splitter, and a point guard. This seems difficult to me.”
Yes, this is one of the real difficulties associated with trading TP. George Hill is not TP. They are different players. We would need a penetrating, good passing point back in any trade for TP, plus, you’re right, we NEED a solid big man. I’m open to trading TP, but finding the right deal would be more difficult, in my view, than finding a partner in a Manu deal.
PHXSpur
May 18th, 2010 at 9:53 am
“Spurs Targets
MLE- Tiago, Ty Thomas, I. Bouroussis, Salmons, M. Miller
BiAnnual- Kyle Korver, A. Morrow, R. Bell, R. Brewer, Mo Evans
I’d put money on that.”
Most, if not all of those players are not going to play for us for those salaries. Welcome to reality.
Jordan
May 18th, 2010 at 10:18 am
“The key to this off-season will be Splitter. If we can get Splitter, the sky is the limit.”
You’re overestimating Splitter’s value, and the strength of our team. We have more weaknesses than you’re willing to accept.
May 18th, 2010 at 12:36 pm
Forget the championships and how about we just enjoy watching Duncan, Ginobili, and Parker play at high levels for a couple more seasons. Before we know it they’ll be gone.
http://www.operaforthemasses.com/2010/05/watching-sun-set-look-back-the-spurs.html
May 18th, 2010 at 12:48 pm
@Jim Henderson-this rebuilding on the run you’re advocating. It’s not happening. The reason it has been successful this last decade is because Tim Duncan remained one of the top five players in the league, if not the best player.
You don’t win championships without an elite player or two. And if you’re the San Antonio Spurs, you do not get those guys through free agency. If you want to move a great piece for a couple of solid young pieces to keep an eye on the future, it’s just a promise of mediocrity.
If titles are your franchise’s ultimate aspirations, you either want to be one of the four or five teams with a shot at a title or one of the absolute worst teams that can get impact players in the draft to move back up to that point (the Thunder and Blazers weren’t built on the run, they were completely torn down and built back up through the draft).
Unless there is a miraculous sign and trade that brings in Bosh, you’re not getting another All-NBA talent that will help Duncan contend now and into the future. Your proposed Harden deal, well Harden is no Brandon Roy-he won’t be at his peak, and that’s a few seasons away-and the surrounding pieces you want are mere role players. That’s just good enough to keep you from being terrible in the future and represents a step back right now.
If you want to rebuild now, on the fly, trade Duncan-not because you can get great returns, but because it would not be fair to him to throw away his last season or two to rebuild for the future.
And trading Parker or Manu to the Thunder? or another young playoff team? Then you’d have to face those teams that you already have trouble with, only now they have Tony Parker or Manu Ginobili.
There are no promises in the lottery, but Buford and Pop have shown they’re smart enough in the draft to make the right move when that time comes. Again, even Utah bottomed out. The best thing for the here and now is to keep this intact and hope things fall just right next season.
The best thing for the future is to let this team die off, bottom out a season or two, and hope to find other franchise players in the draft.
May 18th, 2010 at 1:09 pm
@ Jim Henderson
I don’t think I am over-estimating Splitter. I see him as a poor man’s Paul Gasol. While he might not be an All-star, I think he will be a big man that can score on the block with a decent mid-range game.
This also allocates McDyess to the bench, where he was very effective the year before this past season.
If we can get a defensive minded SF who can hit the corner 3 at a decent clip, I think we contend strongly for a championship next year. Am I over-estimating this Spurs team? I don’t think so… But if I am, please explain these weaknesses that I gloss over.
May 18th, 2010 at 1:18 pm
I don’t think Manu’s nose was the difference between a sweep and us being competitive. Yeah his shooting percentage was down, but his ability to do everything else including getting to the line still made him a valuable player. If the series had been close, we could talk about his nose. However, we were dominated and this was largely due to ineffective role players.
To my mind we need another big, wing, and guard. Tiago may take care of the big and we only need backup at guard so that may come from someone we already have developing. I’m just not sure about what we’re going to do at the 3. We should definitely draft a wing, but it’s unlikely that will be enough. Maybe Jefferson can spend all summer working with Chip on his corner 3? I think our wing position is going to be our big problem next year.
May 18th, 2010 at 1:51 pm
@Jim Henderson
I hope Jesse Blanchard finally puts your trade MANU talk to rest.
I get what you are saying but Jesse is right. To win you need superstars. You can’t trade superstars for “good” players and expect to win.
This all ends when TD hangs em up. You don’t just get a TD without luck.
That’s why you can’t break up the big 3.
The article was right, the role players didn’t show up. SPURS need to develop Hairston, Blair, Hill and maybe even IAN. Maybe get a shooter through Free agency and Splitter. Plus both TP and MANU aren’t going to play this summer. They are going to come in focused next season. They just need a little help.
May 18th, 2010 at 2:22 pm
The spurs should still consisder having intrest in bringing Detroit Pistons Teshian Prince over to the club? I think that is a piece that need to be put into thought along with tiago splitter
May 18th, 2010 at 2:49 pm
While I am not an advocate for trading TP, there are some interesting scenarios and rumours. If there’s smoke, is there neccesarily fire though?
With ‘reported’ Spurs interest in Rudy Gay, would some form of trade involving TP to Memphis and getting back Gay and Mike Conley (with other bits to make it work) be worth consideration?
As disappointing as RJ was, he is still the best wing player on the roster. Averaging double figures and improving his rebounding. Dumping his contract at the deadline next season would provide serious wing issues unless there was another quality wing already in place.
Rudy Gay could be that player. It would enable an easy decision on trading RJ’s expiring contract at the deadline, and enough time to evaluate if RJ the player, fits with a different style of PG in Conley.
A back court rotation centred on Manu, Hill and Conley sounds pretty decent and while Splitter is not going to be the saviour, he certainly would help the front court. He would not be beaten on the pick and roll like Duncan was, and from what I recall, Mahinmi has defended it particularly well also.
I see the Spurs resigning Mahinmi if they aren’t outbid on the minimum, and Bonner will also be back. He was the best perimiter shooter for the Spurs and it’s a weakness. Why would you dump a guy who is the best you have in an area of weakness, who knows the system, with no ready replacement?
The Spurs would also be looking at a shooter with the bi-annual. Most of the best guys would be out of that price range, but one of Korver, House, Kapono, or Rasual Butler might slip through the cracks…
That roster starts to look pretty decent then… chemistry and system issues notwithstanding…
May 18th, 2010 at 3:09 pm
Tough decisions for the front office. Trading Tony Parker to get 2 pieces that would help, a wing defender and a 3 pt shooter would be worth it. Decent point guards are a dime a dozen in the NBA, like running backs for Shanahan for the Broncos were, low round picks gaining 1,000 yds every season. Ex-Spurs point guards play in the NBA like Beno Udrih and C.J. Watson.
For example, last yr I’d have traded Parker & Mason for Harris, Lee, and Dooling to give the Nets more cap space and Spurs get a pg in Harris and young, athletic 2 guard defender, 3 pt shooter in Lee.
This summer I’d trade Parker for Randy Foye and Mike Miller if possible, Wizards get an expiring contract. Foye is a restricted free agent(sign him to cheaper deal than Parker would want? Say $6 mil per? minimum is $5 mil as a restricted) and Miller a free agent(sign and trade to a decent 3 yr deal, $7 mil per?). 2 good shooters for Ginobili drive and kicks or Duncan double team post ups(which teams don’t really have to do anymore). Foye was a 7th overall pick and Miller a 5th overall pick. They both shoot over 36% from 3 land career wise and Foye is a great FT shooter, 8th best in NBA @ 89% this year, and 85% career! Foye is also harder to post up for the likes of Deron Williams, Chauncey Billups, Jason Kidd, etc.
For defenders, give Malik Hairston a chance, sign a Quinton Ross, or my preference is to sign Bobby Jones. Bobby Jones defended Brandon Roy, Nate Robinson, and Will Conroy in practice at college and did a good job from what I understand.
Even Draftexpress.com claims he could be a Bruce Bowen clone. He played for the Spurs for like 3 games, 2 years ago. Spurs need to have Bobby Jones replace Bogans. Sign him to a 2 yr minimum guaranteed deal and he’d probably jump at the chance instead of being overseas.
http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Bobby-Jones-351
Sign Tiago Splitter, (even though truthfully I’ve never seen him play or know if he’s any good, but a 7 FT Varejo type would help).
Spurs 2010-11
PG - Foye, Hill
SG - Miller, Ginobili
SF - Jones, Jefferson
PF - Duncan, Blair
C - Splitter, McDyess
11,12,13 - Hairston, Bonner, Temple
We have an all new starting 5 except Duncan and a monstrous, cohesive bench. The 1st 5 play the 1st 6 minutes of the 1st 3 qtrs, the 2nd 5 the last 6 minutes of the 1st 3 qtrs. The 4th qtr by feel of the game. No player plays more than 30 minutes a night. 10 players play every game to stay fresh and in rhythm and get at least 18 minutes playing time(No shafting Blair on PT). Maybe Pop tweaks the lineups of 5 players, but the same units stay together for at least 10 game stretches no exceptions except for injuries.
Go Spurs Go!
May 18th, 2010 at 3:15 pm
@ lvmainman
I don’t see how trading for Foye and Miller help us though. I like Miller’s shooting, but they were starters on a team that was near the depths of the conference. It reminds me of Dallas’ trade for Haywood.
Also, the T-Wolves tried Foye out as a point guard. It didn’t go well…
May 18th, 2010 at 3:34 pm
I’d probably be willing to trade Jefferson for Foye and Miller, but no way I’d give up TP for just those two.
May 18th, 2010 at 4:19 pm
@ Jordan,
They were starters on a team near the bottom? What does that have to do with anything? That’s like saying why trade for Ray Allen, he was on a team that was 31-51 before joining if you’re the Celtics! Or why trade for Pau Gasol, his team went 22-60, the worst record in the NBA, if you’re the Lakers!! The best players on crappy teams are valuable components on good teams. That makes them undervalued by people like you and some GM’s.
Foye is a better 3 pt/FT shooter than Parker and Miller is a better fit than Roger Mason. Miller can catch and shoot without a rhythm dribble like Mason. I’d much rather have a Foye/Miller combo than a Parker/Mason combo. Plus the salaries for Foye/Miller would equal Parker’s alone. More bang for the Spurs buck.
Besides Foye as a starting PG avg 2 fewer assists a game than Parker, and ONE fewer FT attempt a game, and .5 fewer turnovers in the same 35 minutes a game while with T-wolves as their starting point guard. The T-wolves were 24-58 that yr vs. the Spurs 54-28 that yr.
Don’t you’d think with a better team Foye’s stats might improve?
May 18th, 2010 at 5:07 pm
Foye shoots 41 percent from the field, Parker 50 percent. Foye generates pull-up long 2-pointers, Parker layups. Just saying…
May 18th, 2010 at 5:26 pm
TP can also carry a team on his back, when he’s healthy. Foye can’t.
May 18th, 2010 at 5:36 pm
@ lvainman
I’m saying that how can we think that those two players will get us over the hump when they weren’t the best players on their team last year. Gasol and Allen were the best players on their team when they were traded.
When Foye and Miller were the “leaders” on the 2009-2010 Washington team, the Wizards went 9 and 21. I’m ok with them as players, but they aren’t quality starters on a championship team. Maybe bench players.
May 18th, 2010 at 5:38 pm
Sorry for the double post, but You can’t compare Foye and Miller to Allen or Gasol. Gasol and Allen were both all-stars before being traded.
May 18th, 2010 at 5:52 pm
Might the Pistons be a team looking to dump salary, too? They’re reportedly up for sale, and Dumars made a comment at some point this season about having other business interests and not necessarily wanting to be GM forever.
This may be asking too much, but could we put together a package including RJ and a young pick or prospect to make the salaries work (maybe a signed-and-traded Mahinmi?) that would bring back Ben Gordon and Tayshaun Prince? It would be pricey, but we would be taking a lot of long-term salary off of their books, and I doubt Prince, even in his older, diminished form, would provide worse perimeter D than what RJ gave us this year.
May 18th, 2010 at 6:08 pm
There is no way the Spurs will be able to move RJ. The only way is he opts out of his contract. Trading Parker is what the Spurs need to do.
May 18th, 2010 at 6:10 pm
The Spurs biggest need after a Splitter like big man is 3pt shooting and that search is what will determine the Spurs 2011 fortunes.
Mike Miller or JJ Reddick would be a great addition, I just don’t see how we would be able to swing that.
Being able to convince a Kyle Korver or Rasual Butler would be a good start. Also look for the F.O. to take a flier on players like Adam Morrison or Rashad McCants.
I do see Bonner being resigned at his current salary, while not great he knows the system and could be of value if he was one of multiple 3pt weapons, not the teams best.
Richard Jefferson can be moved, but it will depend on which teams strike out in Free Agency. The team that decided to trade for Jefferson wouldn’t view him as the Summer of 2010 prize but more of a stop gap to keep fans patient until the following summer so they can make a run at Carmelo Anthony, Yao, and Tony Parker. We would probably only get a 2nd round pick that we would never see, if we were lucky we could potentially get a project player that the other team has given up on.
May 18th, 2010 at 6:16 pm
@Buckets
I disagree — I think his trade value exceeds his player value. On a horrible team that is going to lose anyway, RJ can score 18+ PPG as the primary option, allowing the franchise to save face while selling off talent with long-term contracts. This is the last chance for many teams to off-load big contracts before the new CBA, which might carry a hard cap — there will be buyers out there for players with big expiring contracts.
May 18th, 2010 at 6:47 pm
Joe is correct. When David Robinson got injured in ’96-97 the Spurs brought in an aged Dominique Wilkins to keep the fans entertained while losing enough games to draft Tim Duncan. RJ can play that role for some lucky team .
May 18th, 2010 at 7:20 pm
Living in DC I can tell anyone first hand that Foye and Miller are not the answers.
May 18th, 2010 at 7:29 pm
I have been an advocate of this fresh coat of paint approach all season.
As far as I can see the choice for the front office & Holt is pretty clear.
Big Three plus player growth and a couple of extra rotation players
vs
Blow it all up and hit the lottery.
I’m comfortable with how this year turned out. We were struggling to believe in the playoffs about half way through and we ended up getting iced in the second round as a #7 seed.
Rating Randy Foye vs Tony Parker….Did you guys not watch the playoffs? That was a slow injured TP getting high % stuff all over, why in the world do we have this weird apathy about our Point Guard?
The only time I read about how crap he is, is right here on this forum.
May 18th, 2010 at 7:33 pm
There is one contract a lot of people are overlooking.
McDyess is only Partially guaranteed after this season. Thats a very attractive contract in that it’s a semi expiring thats easy to move.
Not that we need to blow off any frontline depth right now, just saying
May 18th, 2010 at 7:35 pm
Bottom line is the team to go through in the West is now L.a. Has been since 08. Realistically who will guard Kobe. Who will guard the Lakers bigs. Team chemistry, 3 point shooting, defense, freethrow shooting, blowing 20 point leads, lack of execution are all things the Spurs lack from there last good season in 08. These are all things that need to be addressed in this offseason.
Spurs fan since 89
By the way the Spurs tried to deal RJ and MasonJr. at the trade deadline but there were no takers. ( I wonder why) Also the Spurs wanted Borris Diaw but he was injured last season.
May 18th, 2010 at 8:11 pm
Off the top of my head trade proposal:
3 Teams involved would be Spurs, Wizards and Magic.
Spurs get: Sign and Traded JJ Reddick and Mike Miller,and either Mikel Pietrus or Matt Barnes
Orlando gets: Gilbert Arenas
Wizards gets: Richard Jefferson,
Marcin Gortat
Spurs also give up a potential 1st rounder, and/or Dejuan Blair
May 18th, 2010 at 8:13 pm
Forget Foye. He is a poor production guard. He is an inefficient scorer. No trade should involve him.
Parker, when healthy has been a solid producer. Not elite like Manu or Tim, but a great piece to have on the team. If you remove Tony’s first half of this season from his numbers over the last several years there is no reason to expect a anything but good play from him next year when you take in to consideration the fact that he’s taking the summer off. So I don’t think we can consider any trade scenarios that involve him if we don’t take into account replacing his production at PG. This makes trading him hard to envision although I suppose it’s possible.
It’s even harder to imagine trading Ginobili. Ginobili’s production at guard is much better than Parker’s and this will probably be true next year as well. However, Ginobili is older with a 3 year contract so I’m not sure that his trade value is any greater than Parker’s. So that’s even greater production to replace with potentially no more trade value. Plus one of our weaknesses is 3 pt shooting and trading Manu away is not likely to improve this much. This makes Ginobili very hard to trade.
Duncan is off the table for the same reason. He’s older with a bigger contract and he had high production this season (and every other). So you’re just not going to get the bang for your buck. Also, post depth is not a team strength right now so this makes it hard to trade away our best post player.
So what does this mean for us? If we really want a shot at winning the title in the next couple of years we pretty much have to rebuild around the Big 3. Is it possible some trade scenario emerges involving TP and RJ or something that is advantageous to us? Sure, but I’m not holding my breath.
May 18th, 2010 at 8:46 pm
I guess we’ll agree to disagree, but I’m not suggesting trading Parker for Foye straight up. It’s basically a Parker and Mason (free agent who won’t be back with the Spurs cause he sucked shooting open 3 point shots without a dribble first, 0 for 9 in Cleveland ring a bell?) vs Foye and Miller. 2 new players to replace 2 current Spurs.
I just believe a Foye/Miller would produce better in a Spurs system for the team next year than Parker/Mason did this year. Better shooting from 3/FT, better rebounding, same amount of assists, and probably the same so-so defense.
More trade suggestions?
@ Jordan,
Fair point on Allen being an all-star, but Gasol had only been an all-star once prior to being a Laker. Miller has been rookie of the year and 6th man of the year.
May 18th, 2010 at 9:15 pm
@ Cory Clay,
I seriously doubt any GM would touch Gilbert Arenas with a 10-ft pole with his bum 3 time surgery having knee, albatross contract, and societal misgivings with gun play and personal revealing blogs.
May 18th, 2010 at 9:52 pm
Jesse Blanchard
May 18th, 2010 at 12:48 pm
“If titles are your franchise’s ultimate aspirations, you either want to be one of the four or five teams with a shot at a title or one of the absolute worst teams that can get impact players in the draft to move back up to that point (the Thunder and Blazers weren’t built on the run, they were completely torn down and built back up through the draft).”
Lets just say that I accept your either/or premise (which I don’t). If that’s the case, we’re in trouble then, because we’re not very close to either end of the spectrum, and we have little rational hope of getting there anytime soon. And lets face it, we’re not the Thunder or the Blazers. Neither of those teams have even won ONE title, let alone four. Those teams had no choice but to rebuild because their management made some poor personnel decisions, or their owners felt the need to sell the franchise. There is no inevitability to being competitive for 10 years, then crashing and burning for 5 years, and then rebuilding from scratch until you can become competitive again. Granted, it’s not possible to remain near the top FOREVER, but in my view, we’re a long ways from forever. Over the next 3-5 years, we could in fact shrewdly retool the team (by adding quality young talent that fill critical needs) to the point of challenging again for titles. Duncan may be in more of a supportive role by then (similar to the admiral, but not exactly), if he chooses to resign in two years. But that, I’m afraid is our best route to another title. Unless the FO pulls off a miracle in the off-season, I think it is VERY unlikely we ever win a title with the big three again. Sooner or later we’re going to have to come to terms with that. I’m in favor of sooner.
“Your proposed Harden deal, well Harden is no Brandon Roy–he won’t be at his peak, and that’s a few seasons away–and the surrounding pieces you want are mere role players.”
Not surprisingly, you’re underestimating Harden’s potential. At 20 years old, Harden was the 6th man on a team that won 50 games in the NBA, and was one important reason why OKC took the defending champion Lakers to 6 grueling games in their 1st playoff series. Harden executed his role quite well, lighting it up with a .585 TS%. At age 20, Roy was at the University of Washington. Really, I wouldn’t jump the gun on comparing Harden to Roy at this point. It’s too early. What we do know that he could very well be a very strong piece to our future, and would also not represent much of a pull back, if any, in our upcoming season. It depends on what other pieces we’re able to assemble during the off-season, and how the chemistry all works together (MLE, draft, etc.), and other variables.
“The best thing for the future is to let this team die off, bottom out a season or two, and hope to find other franchise players in the draft.”
We let it come to that, and it’s a L..O..N..G way back to the top.
Jordan
May 18th, 2010 at 1:09 pm
“If we can get a defensive minded SF who can hit the corner 3 at a decent clip, I think we contend strongly for a championship next year. Am I over-estimating this Spurs team? I don’t think so… But if I am, please explain these weaknesses that I gloss over.”
We definitely need an exceptionally competent, not past his prime, shot-blocker/defender in the paint. We really need two solid three point shooters, one of them being our go-to guy that we can count on hitting clutch threes in the playoffs, on the road. And we need to stiffen up defensively on the perimeter by acquiring an experienced, aggressive, savvy wing with the ability to knock down an open three, but not necessarily a high-volume shooter. Our entire team needs to get more serious defensively. That is Pop’s game, and we need to bring it back in the form of key acquisitions, organic development, and a more intense mind-set and pride on the defensive end. Filling these holes will not be easy, considering our financial position, and in my view will require supreme success at pulling off a significant trade, picking up the “right” draft pick, and signing the “right” free agents. The FO has quite a task on their hands to get this team to championship level.
junierizzle
May 18th, 2010 at 1:51 pm
“I hope Jesse Blanchard finally puts your trade MANU talk to rest.”
Sorry, maybe Pop could do it, but I’d still want the opportunity to make my case.
doggydogworld
May 18th, 2010 at 6:47 pm
“When David Robinson got injured in ‘96-97 the Spurs brought in an aged Dominique Wilkins to keep the fans entertained while losing enough games to draft Tim Duncan. RJ can play that role for some lucky team.”
I hope that was said tongue & cheek.
David G
May 18th, 2010 at 7:20 pm
“Living in DC I can tell anyone first hand that Foye and Miller are not the answers.”
Neither is Parker for the Wiz.
Bushka
May 18th, 2010 at 7:29 pm
“As far as I can see the choice for the front office & Holt is pretty clear.
Big Three plus player growth and a couple of extra rotation players
vs
Blow it all up and hit the lottery.”
I disagree. There is a more gradual approach available as a choice.
“McDyess is only Partially guaranteed after this season. Thats a very attractive contract in that it’s a semi expiring thats easy to move.”
That is a good point. That’s one of the reasons that he’s in the OKC deal that I proposed. It might help us in getting OKC to bite on the financial aspects, and might even net us a better draft pick if we wanted to pass on White, or Krstic/Collison, for that matter. OKC is full of high draft picks, and full of young players. They need to get something to win now - veteran experience. We, on the other hand are too old, have too weak of a supporting cast, are strapped financially, and need an injection of “quality youth” to compete. Unless Hairston & Co. are REAL diamonds in the rough!
jason
May 18th, 2010 at 7:35 pm
“By the way the Spurs tried to deal RJ and MasonJr. at the trade deadline but there were no takers. ( I wonder why)”.
I’m sure you’re being facetious, right?
“It’s even harder to imagine trading Ginobili. Ginobili’s production at guard is much better than Parker’s and this will probably be true next year as well. However, Ginobili is older with a 3 year contract so I’m not sure that his trade value is any greater than Parker’s. So that’s even greater production to replace with potentially no more trade value. Plus one of our weaknesses is 3 pt shooting and trading Manu away is not likely to improve this much. This makes Ginobili very hard to trade.”
I think we went over this numerous times, in some detail, but a trade with OKC involving Manu is very doable. Of course, Harden is an excellent three-point shooter, and is only going to get better, unlike Manu. An improving Hill, a healthy Parker, and a fortuitous sophomore jump in Harden’s game will help offset the loss of Manu’s production.
I agree, Duncan is off the table, for reasons too numerous to mention.
May 18th, 2010 at 9:56 pm
@jim
Do you remember what i said about CAVS and MAGIC, ” just two overrated Nba Teams,
Celtics is just performing like we always did!!
Forget about the season statistics, playoffs is playoffs and we were not able to do it ,this year.
Celts are doing it, KG / TD controlling and rebounding-Rondo/TP making the TP, Pierce doing the Manu and effective role players all of them excellently coached.
Bring on the Lakers or the Suns ( another overrated busted meme NBA team)
POP just look at this mess, we could have done it!!
God Bless You all.
May 18th, 2010 at 10:08 pm
I feel you Ivmainman,
I just don’t think you can include Parker & Mason as a unit.
Mase is not really a rotation player any more, and although I’d love to get Mike Miller as a designated marksmen/bench gunner, Foye is not to my taste.
Look at it this way, we got to the 2nd round this year.
We add Tiago + Improved Dejaun / George + getting rotation minutes out of either Hairston/Gee/Or Temple maybe one or two minimum vets we have to be a better team right?
I’d rather see that team being competitive than blowing the ship up. No freaking way do we become the franchise that trades away Duncan.
May 18th, 2010 at 10:08 pm
SPURSGERMANY
May 18th, 2010 at 9:56 pm
Apparently there’s a bunch of choke teams in the East that can’t handle the aging but steely mindset of the Celtics. That said, we’re not the Celtics. They have TWO key starters on that team that are YOUNG and consistently producing (Rondo & Perkins - one of them, an all-star). Rondo, in particular has been simply AMAZING. He seems to get better practically every game.
We’ll see how it all turns out, but the “old” big three on the Celts are giving it their all for one last run at it. Unfortunately, if they get through the weak EAST, they’ll run into a buzz saw in the defending champion Lakers. No chokers there. Should be interesting.
May 18th, 2010 at 10:21 pm
Rondo is the best player on that celtics team right now.
Another year for George and we’ll have 4 top quality guys plus role players.
Tiago could be that fifth.
I am still…really positive, I think theres great potential here.
May 18th, 2010 at 10:23 pm
Pop is still the coach. You can’t just bring in any point guard. Both Parker and Hill have passed the Pop litmus. Pop is more about character and basketball IQ than, scoring and athleticism. He’s got his pieces in place. Tiago seems to be Pop’s and RC’s target.
This team was put together to beat the Lakers and the Mavericks. The Suns were an anomaly. I’ll take the current team with some added internal corporate knowledge growth from the young guys. Let Ian go if we can get Tiago.
I’m not ready for another season of 20 plus different starting lineups. Don’t get me wrong, I enjoyed this season thoroughly, but I’m ready for some consistency and Spurs basketball.
May 19th, 2010 at 4:32 am
@Ivmainman, if any GM would touch Arenas it would be Orlando GM Otis Thorpe who due to various “experts” has a close relationship with Arenas. If Orlando gets bounced by the Celtics in 5 or 6 games, I can easily see them wanting to shake things up and make a move. Bringing in Arenas as a 2 guard and moving Vince Carter to small forward could be a really dynamic lineup, plus they would shed some contracts in Gortat and Pietrus but also possibly gain an underpaid Blair who will be expendable if the Spurs are able to bring over Splitter and resign Bonner.
May 19th, 2010 at 5:02 am
Orlando isn’t letting Gortat go. They signed him to that big contract less than a year ago because he’s worth it.
@lvmain - Parker/Mason for Foye/Miller is a recipe for sustained mediocrity. And the Spurs front office would become a laughingstock.
@SpursGermany. Boston sacrificed the back half of the season to prep for the playoffs. In the West that strategy puts you in the lottery, not the Finals.
May 19th, 2010 at 5:10 am
I disagree, Orlando is a team that like us went all in, will be taking a big tax hit and anything less than getting to the Finals is a big disappointment.
And they matched that contract b/c they didn’t want to lose an asset for nothing which is what would have happened if he went to Dallas. Orlando’s approach works well b/c of elite rebounding and 3pt shooting, the trade I proposed off the top of my head gives them the best player in the deal and an upgrade at SG, and gives them the flexibility to resign Barnes by shedding Peitrus’s contract.
I’m not saying the deal would be a no brainer for any of the teams but in my opinion they would all get better.
May 19th, 2010 at 5:47 am
Jim,
“Of course, Harden is an excellent three-point shooter, and is only going to get better, unlike Manu.”
My point isn’t that you can’t trade Manu for a better 3 pt shooter. Plenty of them in league. My point is trading Manu and getting one 3 pt. shooter back does little to improve our team. In order to improve the team by trading TP or Manu we have to address weakness. If we traded Manu or TP in return I’d want to primarily address the need for a wing. In addition I’d want an average guard back who has a decent 3 pt shot. It’s not smart to trade away one of your two best players in a trade that doesn’t make you better. This is why Manu is hard to trade.
May 19th, 2010 at 5:50 am
face it jim, you got served by jesse blanchard. you patrol this blog as if you run it. clearly, you don’t.
that was great
May 19th, 2010 at 5:56 am
i agree that keeping this team intact and possibly acquiring and sg and sf through draft and free agency may be or best bet along with signing splitter.
i also think trading mcdyess might save us some cash to resign ian and give him an active roster spot. mcdyess was terrific in the post season, but this is a situation where we need to look more long term and it seems as though the sentiments from jesse, tim, and andrew are that ian should be resigned on the cheap. i think the guy is ready to contribute and a frontcourt of tim, dejuan, tiago, ian, and matty looks pretty solid to me.
May 19th, 2010 at 6:08 am
@lvmain - Mason’s 0-8 night vs. Cleveland was after he hurt his finger. He was an ugly 25% from 3 after the injury. Before that he was fine — 39% in December, 45% in January. Not saying he’s coming back, any minutes available behind behind Tony, Manu and George should go toward developing Garrett Temple. But Mase will find a job.
May 19th, 2010 at 6:18 am
Yeah, include Mase in my trade idea as a piece to either Orlando or back to Washington!
May 19th, 2010 at 8:46 am
I agree with jesse, that the Spurs need to ride it out as long as they can with the big three. They def. need some players that are not going to shrivel up come playoff time. Blair missing easy layups and comitting dumb fouls, or players crying over playing time needs to be fixed. the last thing the spurs need is a person lobbying for more playing time, and when they do get it, dont produce like as much as they are whinning. The spurs need to bring in a young athlethic big that can move on pick and roll defense and/or protect the rim. They also need a good on the ball defender, Bogans was not getting it done! did you see the play when ginobili blocked durant in the open court, well in the background Bogans was running as if he had to take a you know what, it was classic! 28-29 second mark http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hm9Y-vqZsEo. Anyways, wishful thinking to want Jefferson to opt out, and sign for less! but diffintely possibly to trade his expiring contract! i trust the FO to get it done in the draft, and hopefully bring in Splitter to get him going! I think Spurs fans can really look forward to next season!
May 19th, 2010 at 9:43 am
Well, draft express and Chad Ford have new Mock drafts out after the lottery. DE has us taking Luke Babbitt and Ford has us taking Damion James. I’d be happy with either honestly. Babbitt is a great shooter who is decent on the boards and can play decent D according to his profile. James is a decent shooter who is a monster on the glass (over 10 boards a game in only 30 minutes) and developed into a good defender his senior year. I think both would be able to help us right away. Or at least by the end of the regular season. I’d prefer DJ because of his rebounding and defense, but both are solid prospects.
May 19th, 2010 at 10:01 am
duaneofly - interesting question but I think he will come over and play. He just won the MVP of the Spanish league and the next big paycheck is the NBA. He gets teh MLE - either all or most of it - and gives TD his needed rest. So I think he will be OK with that.
———————————————
Hobson13- Parker can be replaced but only with equal talent. Trading Parker and not getting a top 5 or so pg would simply create a wekness at that position, even if you traded him for a 4/5 you still have the hole at PG. And I unequicoally statthe following: George Hill is NOT A PG. He can’t filll TP shoes. He is a combo guard primarily situated for the SG position with only spot minutes at the PG. Hopefully Temple plays well in training camp and pre-season in order to win the backup PG slot.
The missing point about when the Spurs started to play better isn’t neccessarily that TP went out and Manu started to come on but that Pop finally realiazed that RJ can’t play with TP and put him on the bench with Manu. The bench of RJ, Blair and Manu become one of the best in the league. It was unfortunate that TP got hurt since I believe our best team was the one playing in Memphis when he got hurt. Manu and Co. off the bench was destroying the league’s 2nd units regularly and causing all sorts of problems.
———————————————-
junierizzle - good point about MAnu. In fact during the Suns series TNT put up a chart showing the pre- broken and post- broken numbers of Manu. Incredibly falloff. I contributed to hisnose regardles of what many were saying about Hill, too. All I needed to see was his lack of O and shooting % lLATE in games to know that he wasn’t all there.
———————————————
Brian - Concerning Ian - If the Spurs decide to bring him into TC and give him a chance to make an impression that’s fine with me. Though his O is decent he is a terrible defender prone to getting quick, stupid and cheap fouls. It’s his D that puts him in Pop’s doghouse. If he can just clean that up then we have a good player but frankly that isn’t ever going to happen. He has a low BBIQ and isn’t going to “get it” one day IMHO.
So if the Spurs do ask him back then we’ll see what happens but it might be better to just let him go and try to find another big to put into the rotation.
———————————————-
bduran - agreed about Foyle. He isn’t going to help much and if that trade involves TP then this team is in serious trouble. That means we really don’t have a PG. Hill isn’t one and I don’t want Manu playing over 30 mpg. Temple is unproven and raw. If the Spurs trade TP then they have to get back a very good PG in return or have another deal set up to acquire one. Othewise they wont get out of the first round if they even make the PO.
——————————————-
May 19th, 2010 at 10:31 am
NFGIII: what you say about Ian, making stupid, cheap fouls and lots of ‘em, could also be said about Blair, even at the end of the season. So, not sure why Ian was presumably in Pop’s doghouse, but Blair was not. And Ian showed much more promise and a much more diversified game on the offensive end than Blair did, and against some damn good defenders. I wish Pop would stick Ian in a gym somewhere with Hakeem and Blair with Barkley. We might have something next fall.
May 19th, 2010 at 11:06 am
Cory Clay
May 18th, 2010 at 8:11 pm
For one thing, Orlando wouldn’t do that deal. They’re not giving Gortat, Pietrus, & Reddick for a guy that waves guns around, has a HUGE contract, and is NOT a “winner”. And second, Blair is one of the three untradeable Spurs (along with Duncan & Hill).
bduran
May 19th, 2010 at 5:47 am
“If we traded Manu or TP in return I’d want to primarily address the need for a wing”
No, first need is to address our “old”, “short”, and declining front line. Otherwise you have no prayer of competing with the Lakers. Just look at what Portland has done with the resigning of Camby, to go along with Przbilla, Oden, Howard, & Aldridge.
“It’s not smart to trade away one of your two best players in a trade that doesn’t make you better. This is why Manu is hard to trade.”
I don’t think we know for sure whether it makes us better “immediately” or not. But it does make us better in the near future. The alternative is to head for a big drop off in the next few years. Not something I’m anticipating with glee.
rj
May 19th, 2010 at 5:50 am
“face it jim, you got served by jesse blanchard. you patrol this blog as if you run it. clearly, you don’t.”
You have no idea what you’re talking about. I don’t claim to run anything. I state opinions about the state of the Spurs. If you, or Jesse, or anybody else doesn’t like it it’s because I try to force you to confront some hard realities. Unfortunately, your denial, and borderline idol worship of the big three has blinded you from seeing that some tough choices are going to have to be made soon to keep us within reach of a title over the next several years.
May 19th, 2010 at 11:18 am
NFGIII
May 19th, 2010 at 10:01 am
“Parker can be replaced but only with equal talent. ”
I absolutely agree. If he is traded, we need an Allstar level producer in return.
“Trading Parker and not getting a top 5 or so pg would simply create a wekness at that position, even if you traded him for a 4/5 you still have the hole at PG.”
The case that we NEED a top 5 pg is not neccessarily true. How many times do I have to make the case that you don’t need an all star PG to win championships? We’ve had one for the past three years and no championships to show for it. Its time to shake things up because the current equation isn’t producing results.
“And I unequicoally state the following: George Hill is NOT A PG. He can’t fill TP shoes. He is a combo guard primarily situated for the SG position with only spot minutes at the PG.”
I agree that Hill is a combo guard who’s natural position is the 2. I could also make the case that while Parker is more natural at the PG position, he is also a combo guard. (look no farther than his low assist/higher scoring average) Again, how many times do I have to point the fact that the team did VERY well without Parker for the most difficult 6 week stretch of the season. The fact that the team can live without Parker is not a hypothetical exercise. It’s already been accomplished and proven.
“Hopefully Temple plays well in training camp and pre-season in order to win the backup PG slot.”
I absolutely agree. Temple has shown great promise even more so than Hairston, in my opinion. If Parker is traded, we do need another PG. Perhaps Temple can be the backup or perhaps a backup can be a part of the trade.
May 19th, 2010 at 11:21 am
Jim,
I only mentioned wing because I got tired of putting “if we don’t get Splitter” in every post. Honestly, I think we’re in good position to get him and I’m going to operate under that assumption for now. We’ll know more this summer. At this point, I think most keep the Big 3 plans revolve around getting him. Things change a bunch if it becomes clear he won’t come over and I will re-evaluate at that point.
Of course, we’re going to get Splitter, draft DJ who will average 20 and 10 in 30 mintues a night at the 3 and Manu will lead us to a championship while being the first palyer to average .600 WP48 for a season. He will then heal TD’s knees and ascend into heaven.
May 19th, 2010 at 11:28 am
Good point about the blind henderson. Too many people are player or coach fans, not fans of winning. Which is fine, but it makes them look extremely stupid when trying to talk basketball.
May 19th, 2010 at 11:34 am
[...] Continued here: Duncan, Ginobili and Parker are still title contenders | 48 … [...]
May 19th, 2010 at 11:34 am
The original post that began this thread operates under the tired, false assumption that the trio of Duncan, Ginobili and Parker are good enough to win it all with the right supplementary pieces.
But that claim is not borne out by the facts. All three were healthy for this playoff go-round. Beyond that, the team had multiple solid-to-good supplementary pieces- Hill, Blair, McDyess, Jefferson- even if RJ was admittedly a disappointment.
And yet, we still got swept by a team that is not going to even make the Finals. The truth is, as currently constituted, the Spurs are not serious contenders.
We are one of the ten best teams in the league, but not in the top 5, much less the top two. Adding Tiago Splitter will not move us past the Lakers, Suns, Jazz, Magic, Celtics or Cavs (unless LeBron leaves, of course). Nor will the improvement of Blair and Hill take us to the top. To continue to assert otherwise is to flirt with ostrich-style head-in-the-sand thinking.
This team needs another difference-maker, a player who can provide what RJ was supposed to but did not; someone who can carry the offensive load for many of the 82 regular season games so Tim and Manu don’t have to use themsleves up.
We have one asset who can potentially be traded for this kind of player. That asset is Tony Parker. We should listen to every offer made and court some of our own. If Jefferson can be moved in the process, all the better.
But let’s not kid ourselves about the status quo. This team, even with Splitter, is no better than the 5th or 6th best team in the NBA. And that’s just not good enough.
May 19th, 2010 at 11:59 am
jim henderson is, like, breathtakingly dense
May 19th, 2010 at 12:02 pm
One thing I’d like to put out there to some of the more edgy people who post on this blog.
Basketball is a sport, and the NBA was formed for entertainment purposes.
If your favorite team does not win the championship every year, or even once every decade, it is not the end of the world.
People who advocate the trading of players like Manu and Duncan for fire sale prices, seem to be more interested in having bragging rights over their friends, than in having fun watching a game.
I love watching Manu play, the guy is crazy awesome when he is healthy!
Duncan isn’t the greatest anymore, but all the years of seeing him absolutely wreck all opposition, and him bringing 4 titles to SA, is more than enough reason for me to keep him around a couple more years.
Another thing that’s wicked fun about the NBA, is speculating about offseason acquisitions! However, when people start getting pissy, and talking about how other readers of this site don’t have a clue about basketball, that’s ruining the fun guys.
May 19th, 2010 at 12:04 pm
I still believe that if e bring in splitter ane hill and blair can develop then we can be a top 5 talent next year. Temple will ome in as a viable point next year. If we stick to duncan mcdyess and blair splitter as secondary, then we will have one of the best secondaries big men in the league. Next year will be when duncan wins his 5th ring and he retires!
May 19th, 2010 at 12:12 pm
@ Joe-I like the Detroit trade that was mentioned would love to see Prince at least started to get back to form toward the end of the season and knows how to play championship Defense. Throwing in Ben Gordon would just be a Bonus. I think Prince might be a Free Agent anyway? Add him to the mix it helps out alot and he can shoot the 3 very well. Then just focus on Splitter and the draft picks.
Spurs 2010-11
PG – Parker/ Hill
SG – Gordon/ Ginobili/ Hill
SF – Prince/ Draft/ Bonner (Get bigger shooter anyways)
PF – Duncan, Blair
C – Splitter, McDyess
May 19th, 2010 at 12:18 pm
@Hobson13
I would disagree with one thing - I would shy away from extrapolating to an entire season based on just a 6 week sample. For me, that’s too small a sample size (it was only 16 games, or 19.5% of the regular season). Not only that, but there were several variables in play at the time that went in our favor. As others have stated, Manu really took over during that stretch. Others, namely Jefferson, also stepped up.
Over the course of an 82 game season, some variables aren’t going to go our way; guys are going to get into shooting slumps, injuries, etc. In that case, we’re going to need a talent like TP to help keep us afloat (much like TP did in 08/09 when Manu and TD were hurt). I wouldn’t agree with the idea that we would have had the same record if TP hadn’t played the entire season.
Personally, had TP been healthy, I see no reason to believe we wouldn’t have had even more success during that 16 game stretch.
May 19th, 2010 at 12:44 pm
@ Bushka, NFGIII, Tony Parker is a top 5 pg believers,
Tony Parker is a good point guard whose going to want $14-15 mil a yr in his next contract. Is he really worth it?? He can’t shoot the 3 or make FT’s consistently.
Tony Parker was a Finals MVP torching the likes of Daniel “Boobie” Gibson, Larry Hughes, Damon Jones, and Eric Snow! Do any of those 4 still play in the NBA?
Tony Parker is a top 10 pg to me but replaceable if the Spurs can get 2 decent players in return that fit what the Spurs need.
Better than Parker pg’s:
Chris Paul, Deron Williams, Rajon Rondo, Russell Westbrook, Derrick Rose
Equal to Parker pg’s:
Steve Nash, Chauncey Billups, Baron Davis, Andre Miller, Jameer Nelson
Slightly less than Parker pg’s:
Devin Harris, Randy Foye, Aaron Brooks, Jarrett Jack, Stephen Curry, Darren Collison, Rodney Stuckey, Derek Fisher, Brandon Jennings, Jason Kidd
Decent point guards are a dime a dozen in the NBA like RB’s were to Shanahan with the Broncos. If a good deal can be made for Parker, I believe it should be done.
May 19th, 2010 at 12:45 pm
“But that claim is not borne out by the facts.”
The facts huh. How about these facts. Hill did not play well against the Suns. TP played better in the playoffs but still not up to career norms. Blair is a good piece but since he doesn’t have much of a jumpshot currently he does not complement TD well. So we could only play him limited minutes. RJ was a below average player this year. So our Big 3 were reasonable healthy with TP still not at 100% and Manu minorly hampered by his broken nose. Hill wasn’t good and Blair couldn’t play much, RJ hasn’t been good all year. So now we have the Big 3 and McDyess. Clearly if the Big 3 can’t get it done in this situation they never will again.
May 19th, 2010 at 1:07 pm
@lvainman
Not to pick on you, but I am wondering why you list those point guards as better than Parker.
I think we can all agree that D-Will and Cp3 are better than TP. I’ll even state that Nash is better too, but D-Rose? Rondo might be better than Parker (these playoffs have probably pushed him ahead).
But Billups? Baron Davis? Andre Miller? Seriously? Davis regularly shows up out of shape with a 3 pt shot that’s almost as bad as Parker’s. Miller is older than Parker and has a worse jumpshot. Nelson? While a fine point guard has benefited in these playoffs playing against awful opposition. Felton and Bibby are by no means good defensively. Look what happens when Nelson has to face Rondo.
What I’m saying is that Parker has been and will continue to be a extremely productive member of the Spurs if he isn’t traded. This season was his first season since 03-04 that he had a below 20 PER. That’s incredible!
@TradeTP
You can talk about winning at all costs if you like. Go join the Lakers. One of the reasons I’m a fan of this franchise is because of the professionalism that is displayed. I think Timothy Varner has posted about how much winning means to the Spurs before. Pop knows that basketball isn’t everything, he, it seems, would much rather be drinking a fine glass of wine. Duncan loves video games, D&D and collecting cars.
Yes, I’m more of a fan of the franchise than winning. Even if they lost every single game every single year, I would continue to be a fan. Would you? Or would you instead go join the Lakers or Celtics or whoever Lebron joins so that you can care about winning?
May 19th, 2010 at 1:23 pm
I don’t understand the push for a TP trade.
No one on here has given a good reason to trade him. No trade proposal makes any sense whatsoever.
Cp3 and Dwill and Nash might all be better but TP has the rings and a Finals MVP. Yet you guys say that it doesn’t matter?????????????????????????????
I’m beginning to think it’s just straight up hate. Why? I don’t know.
May 19th, 2010 at 1:27 pm
@bduran
“Clearly if the Big 3 can’t get it done in this situation they never will again.”
You are making my point. The big 3 isn’t big enough anymore. At least not THIS big 3. Since we will not be parting with Tim or Manu (Manu lost his short term trade value when he signed the extension, so talk of trading him is wasted talk), Tony is the most sellable.
If we can sell him for a younger player who can put points on the board every night and lessen the vets’ load, it is worth looking into that option.
As an aside, ragging on Hill for his Suns series is very cup half empty. I seem to recall some impressive play vs. the Mavs and the whole time Tony was out. He’s doing just fine.
Larger point:
Spurs w/ current Big 3 and current supporting cast= pretty darn good team
Spurs w/ new big 3 that replaces Parker with a younger scorer= Possibly still just a pretty darn good team, but potentially much more than that.
I’d rather puruse excellence than settle for pretty darn good (and getting no better).
What’s the downside if a major move fails? Going from 50 wins and a second round exit to 47 wins and fighting for the eighth playoff spot? Getting 43 wins and landing a lower tier lottery pick? The horror!
You see my point? We have nothing truly valuable to lose by being proactive. Let’s stop protecting our upper level mediocrity like it’s something precious and make a move that really accomplishes something.
May 19th, 2010 at 1:28 pm
Also I would like to add that in 3 years TD and MANU are going to be gone.
TP will only be 30. He will still have some zip left.
You can still build around TP. If you trade him, in three years You’ll all be saying that they should have kept TP.
May 19th, 2010 at 1:34 pm
Even fans of Chicago Bulls admit Rose is an inefficient scorer and a terrible defender. Yeah he definitely has potential to surpass TP later in his career, but at this point Rose is an above-average point guard at best. He is NOT an all-star caliber player yet, just like Mo Williams never deserved to be in that all-star game last year.
I am personally against trading Parker because no one in this team other than Manu can run the freaking offence, but RC should know what to do with him whenever a good offer is made to him.
May 19th, 2010 at 1:55 pm
We should try to win in the TD era, being a true contender is VERY RARE so we can forget trying to slowly morph into a second dynasty with different players; at some point we will be out of the playoffs and rebuilding. (Even Bryant + Odom (minus Jackson) hit the lottery to land Bynum, and that was with a HOF MVP guard in his prime).
So it’s win now (and spend now) while we have TD and Manu, and maybe even TP. So you forget trying to build for the future. I’d even take Ray Allen for 2 years, he’s still better than most even accounting for his streakiness. We do need legitimate Bigs, a stopper, and shooters.
I think T Prince can be had for RJ. I’d take him or Brewer. Corey Maggette can also be had via trade, he can always score and draw fouls, and is capable of defense. I’d take Miller for sure, but not Foye. SPLITTER is a must. Otherwise we are gonna have to gamble on a Tyrus Thomas. Or Pryzbilla.
Once Again: You can forget getting stars for the future, if Splitter and Hill work out long term great, but that’s not what we should be concerned about.
Also I LOVE DB, but I don’t ever see him as champion in this league, even if improves three fold. Did Barkley ever win it all? No. Did Elton Brand? No. Will David West? No. Malik Rose had two HOF 7 footers on his team. Think about it. I’d Like to see DB light it up for some decent playoff team, that’s his ceiling. But if we do keep him, let him play, he gives 110%.
Duncan Splitter Prince Manu Hill
DB McD Miller Brewer Parker
Duncan Thomas Magette Manu Hill
Pryzbilla McD/DB Miller Brewer Parker
Keep in mind what I’m saying is: “Spend Now to Win Now (2-4 years.)”
A great draft helps us: .
If we trade TP, here’s an incomplete list of players that can help us that no one is mentioning, Ray Allen, Earl Watson, Steve Blake, Maggette, and I like the Spanish kid Vasquez from Maryland: I’d love him and Ginobili together (that’s assuming we fill our primary needs outside of the draft, or we trade TP).
May 19th, 2010 at 2:01 pm
Hobson13
May 19th, 2010 at 11:18 am
“Again, how many times do I have to point the fact that the team did VERY well without Parker for the most difficult 6 week stretch of the season. The fact that the team can live without Parker is not a hypothetical exercise. It’s already been accomplished and proven.”
I will suggest that the same is true for Ginobli. We won more games in 2008-2009 with Ginobli missing half the season, and that was without the greatly improved Hill, and Blair & McDyess of 2009-2010. Obviously, losing either of them would be an adjustment, but for those of you that imply that we’d automatically be much worse after trading either of them, if we obtained multiple, very good players in return for our rotation, you’re simply engaging in idol worship of the big three. You just can’t bear the thought of one of them being gone. And I’m sorry, but that’s no way to run a franchise that cares about staying highly competitive. Even the Spur FO I’m sure as entertained thoughts of moving Manu or TP in the last couple of years, and we’re still not sure if they may still pull the trigger in this regard. But so many on here can’t even seriously entertain the thought. What’s the deal with that?
bduran
May 19th, 2010 at 11:21 am
“Of course, we’re going to get Splitter, draft DJ who will average 20 and 10 in 30 mintues a night at the 3 and Manu will lead us to a championship while being the first palyer to average .600 WP48 for a season. He will then heal TD’s knees and ascend into heaven.”
I like your sense of humor!
Syd
May 19th, 2010 at 11:34 am
“The original post that began this thread operates under the tired, false assumption that the trio of Duncan, Ginobili and Parker are good enough to win it all with the right supplementary pieces.”
EXACTLY. Well said, Syd!
“We are one of the ten best teams in the league, but not in the top 5, much less the top two. Adding Tiago Splitter will not move us past the Lakers, Suns, Jazz, Magic, Celtics or Cavs (unless LeBron leaves, of course). Nor will the improvement of Blair and Hill take us to the top. To continue to assert otherwise is to flirt with ostrich-style head-in-the-sand thinking.”
Couldn’t of said it better. Great job, Syd!
“This team needs another difference-maker, a player who can provide what RJ was supposed to but did not; someone who can carry the offensive load for many of the 82 regular season games so Tim and Manu don’t have to use themselves up.
We have one asset who can potentially be traded for this kind of player. That asset is Tony Parker.”
My only contention here is that the MAIN goal should be to improve by a significant amount in both the “quality” AND “youth” of our starters AND rotation players, so that we become a better “team” WITHOUT sacrificing our future. This can be done by not ONLY obtaining just ONE “star” difference-maker in a trade, but also by instead obtaining multiple players that are very good, have youth and excellent potential, and address critical needs. In my view, Ginobli could also be used to make an effective trade. And remember, he’s five years older than Parker, but still has fairly high trade value to the right team, like OKC, for example.
May 19th, 2010 at 2:06 pm
You guys are forgetting we have the 20th pick in the draft. thats big. We can use it as trade bait or we can keep him on the team. From what it looks like we’re either gettin Gordan Hayward or Paul George and if you don’t know who they are Hayward is a dead eye shooter and was an assassin during the NCAA tournament. Paul George is also a dead eye three point shooter who can hop out the gym. Oh yea and another thing…they’re both SFs
May 19th, 2010 at 2:23 pm
Duane- Then maybe you should post on the MANU website, not the SPURS blog. You can still be a fan of Duncan or Manu even when/if they arent in Spurs uniforms. I like to watch Nash, Kobe, LeBron too. But Im SPURS before any individual.
LV- Great point, the same thing I have been saying for two years.
Jordan- If you dont care about winning you should write to Stern and tell him that instead of keeping score everyone should drink wine and play D-D. How about we put everyone to ever don a Spur uni on payroll? Would that bring peace, love, and happiness? You sound like a woman.
Junier- was the ring from this year?
Sam- This draft class sucks. Evan Turner, although a hustle machine, is the most rounded player in the draft… No big men worth a dime, which is what we need.
May 19th, 2010 at 2:32 pm
If you’re looking to trade TP (or Manu), and as has been stated here, address the need on the wing or in the middle, you create an enormous hole in the back court and in playmaking. Manu and TP are the Spurs only players who can create anything. Trading one, you need another back. Either a wing who can get his own (and others) shot/s, or a PG who can.
That’s where I like the idea of a TP for Gay and Conley. It covers those bases.
If you’re trading TP, and not getting a starting PG back, then you’ve addressed the wing/middle need. Then in the draft, why not look at a guy like Avery Bradley? out of Texas, tick, great defence, tick, first name Avery and a PG, tick…
May 19th, 2010 at 2:33 pm
Syd
May 19th, 2010 at 1:27 pm
“……Manu lost his short term trade value when he signed the extension, so talk of trading him is wasted talk….”
I disagree. Manu to the right team is still sellable, and three years is not that big of a commitment for a player of his caliber, even at his age. For example, if OKC wants a legitimate shot at a title in the next few years, they need a VETERAN difference -maker, and Manu is a perfect fit for them among all their excessively young and inexperienced talent.
P.S. Don’t get me wrong, I’m open to a TP trade, but there are problems associated with pulling that off as well.
“You see my point? We have nothing truly valuable to lose by being proactive. Let’s stop protecting our upper level mediocrity like it’s something precious and make a move that really accomplishes something.”
I do very much agree with your closing comment.
td4life
May 19th, 2010 at 1:55 pm
“We should try to win in the TD era, being a true contender is VERY RARE so we can forget trying to slowly morph into a second dynasty with different players; at some point we will be out of the playoffs and rebuilding.”
I have a hard time addressing comments such as this, and I seem to end up repeating myself to no end. Well, here it goes again: WE ARE NOT GOING TO WIN A TITLE WITH THE BIG THREE AGAIN. It’s over. We need to come to terms with that. We do not need to wait to make big moves to the point that we end up dropping to a mediocre team so that we can get a 10th pick in the draft lottery, and then “hope” for some relatively painless reemergence in a few short years. It RARELY works that way. That is no recipe for consistent, sustainable long-term success at the most elite level. On the contrary, we must continually rebuild as we go along, or the odds heavily favor that we’re heading for AT LEAST 6-10 years without a title over the next DECADE.
“I think T Prince can be had for RJ.”
I would like that, but I don’t agree we can get him for RJ.
“Corey Maggette can also be had via trade, he can always score and draw fouls, and is capable of defense.”
Do you want to take on a 9 mil. per year, four year contract for a guy who’s game is very much like RJ’s? I doubt the owner & FO does.
“…..I’d take Miller for sure…”
We very likely can’t afford.
“Or Pryzbilla.”
Probably will not be made available. It’s clear they want to go after LA. They’re keeping their “bigs”.
Without a lot of luck & “magic” by the FO, or trading TP or Manu, we simply do not have the resources (trade pieces, cap space/money, high enough draft picks) to field a title-contending team next year. We need to start coming to terms with this.
May 19th, 2010 at 2:36 pm
@ Trade TP- actually there are Demarcus Cousins and Derrick Favors are both very athletic and good big man in the draft but they will go in the lottery so there’s no chance of getting them. Although there’s a high chance we’re getting Tiago Splitter so there’s not a need to get a big man in the draft
May 19th, 2010 at 2:43 pm
Brian
May 19th, 2010 at 2:32 pm
“That’s where I like the idea of a TP for Gay and Conley.”
That deal might actually have some potential. Let me ask you this, is Gay the type of wing that we want? Make the case that he’s an “efficient” producer? Can he defend well enough? Would the Grizz be willing to part with BOTH of these young, talented players for TP? I believe Gay is a restricted free agent. How does that fit into the equation?
May 19th, 2010 at 2:48 pm
@tradeTP
“Jordan- If you dont care about winning you should write to Stern and tell him that instead of keeping score everyone should drink wine and play D-D. How about we put everyone to ever don a Spur uni on payroll? Would that bring peace, love, and happiness? You sound like a woman.”
I do care about winning, but I also know that winning isn’t everything. I’m not going to respond to your other inflammatory remarks.
Can I ask you a question: Why are you a fan of the Spurs? Is it because they were the most winning franchise of the 00′s? Are you going to jump ship as soon as they lose a few games? Or perhaps you’re a fan of a different franchise who enjoys trolling on this blog with the username “TradeTP”.
May 19th, 2010 at 3:32 pm
jim, i really like reading your posts. i honestly only read yours or one of the home guys. you do post some smart, eloquent material. are you a sports writer of some kind?
anyways, it was just nice to see one of the papa’s give you the business.
trading tony well reap some benefits, but i agree with jesse that it will doom us to extended mediocrity than a quick drop to the bottom and a lottery pick.
don’t take yourself so seriously, jim
May 19th, 2010 at 4:05 pm
Jordan- Winning is everything. I have been a fan of the Spurs since the early 80′s. I have seen all ends of the spectrum.
May 19th, 2010 at 4:18 pm
Syd,
I was being sarcastic. The whole point of my post is that our supporting cast was not championship caliber.
You are partly right. Our supporting cast doesn’t look bad on paper. McDyess was still decent this year, Jefferson wasn’t good but he did play better in the second half of the year, Blair was good, great for a Rookie, and Hill was good, especially in the second half. So having a rotation of 3 stars, 2 guys who are good, and 2 guys who are average take up most of your minutes should be enough to compete in the playoffs and not get swept. Like I said though, TP was sub par all season, Hill sucked against the Suns and we had trouble fitting in minutes for Blair.
Honestly, Blair really needs to work on his mid range jumper. We need to get him more minutes and it’s hard to play two low post players together. If we could have played him more than our supporting cast would be much better.
Something else to consider is that you don’t need a core of producers the level of what our Big 3 have been in the past in order to win a title. For example Detroit did it in ’04 and almost did it again in ’05. However, you need a deep rotation in this case. We’ll if we can get Blair more minutes in the playoffs we should be able to count on TD, Manu, TP, Hill, and Blair for above average production. That’s five. If we can get Splitter and he is what we think he is that should be six come playoffs. If we can get an average player or two out of McDyess, Jefferson, Temple, Hairston, or draftee we’d have a legit 7 or 8 deep rotation and we’d be formidable. This is not unreasonable. I can understand people who are worried and think the best course of action is finding the right trade. I don’t understand the total refusal to consider the above scenario.
May 19th, 2010 at 4:21 pm
Syd,
One more thing, I wasn’t trying to rag on Hill. I really like him. Easy for a young guy like him to have a bad series. I just meant that without him playing well and no minutes for Blair, our depth sucked.
May 19th, 2010 at 4:24 pm
The Spurs FO needs to realize the mistake that was Richard Jefferson, and try to pawn him off on some other unsuspecting team that thinks he’s so darned great. Find Mason, Jr. a home where he will be happy, because I think his heart is not in SA anymore. They need to work with Bogans to make him the defensive player that was Bruce Bowen. And they need to further develop George Hill and DeJuan Blair. Mahinmi, Hairston, and some of the other players they have recently signed need to be cultivated to become the best bench in the league. I have no clue as to what to do about McDyess. Leave the big three intact, and find someone to complement them. If the FO can come to it’s senses and work out their chemistry problem then: I BELIEVE!!!!! 2011 THE YEAR OF THE SPURS!!!!! GO SPURS GO!!!!!
May 19th, 2010 at 4:44 pm
Bring Splitter and try to get Nocioni too. You get size (plus Spain’s MVP) with one and 3pt, defense and the heart of a lion with the other.
May 19th, 2010 at 4:53 pm
It’s just not feasible that trading Tony brings a title.
If we are improving, it has to be a trade that we win.
That kind of trade is moving something that doesn’t subtract from our team for something that improves it.
I can never get behind trading an asset in it’s prime for another asset in it’s prime. Theres an inherent risk in fit/chemistry/skill set that is just asking for trouble.
It’s just trading things out in the vain hope that things get better.
Stay the course.
It’s a hell of a lot tougher to get an all NBA point as compared to an all NBA forward.
May 19th, 2010 at 4:55 pm
Let me moderate my own post..
BY “not feasible” I mean extremely unlikely.
May 19th, 2010 at 4:57 pm
rj
May 19th, 2010 at 3:32 pm
Well, assuming you’re being sincere, thanks for the compliment.
“anyways, it was just nice to see one of the papa’s give you the business.”
That’s fine, I enjoy the jousting. However, don’t think for a minute that just because one of the creator’s of the blog agrees with your views on the best direction for the Spurs at this point in time confers by virtual decree that both of you are correct in your assessment. That my friend, would be a erroneous assumption.
bduran
May 19th, 2010 at 4:18 pm
“If we can get Splitter and he is what we think he is that should be six come playoffs. If we can get an average player or two out of McDyess, Jefferson, Temple, Hairston, or draftee we’d have a legit 7 or 8 deep rotation and we’d be formidable. This is not unreasonable. I can understand people who are worried and think the best course of action is finding the right trade. I don’t understand the total refusal to consider the above scenario.”
I don’t have a problem with your basic assessment in this post. I will suggest that with our aging stars, and with the talent level of the elite teams, our team would really need to go nine deep. And that means ALL nine would have to represent a solid mixture of guys (young, old, experienced, etc.) that can contribute reliably for several minutes a game — guys that can really play, particularly at least eight of them in a playoff atmosphere. Thus, you have to admit that there is a lot of “if’s” to get to this level in relation to this portion of your post:
“….If we can get an average player or two out of McDyess, Jefferson, Temple, Hairston, or draftee we’d have a legit 7 or 8 deep rotation and we’d be formidable.”
Even for Splitter, it is still unknown how well he’ll do in the NBA, and that is “if” we get him.
May 19th, 2010 at 5:16 pm
We got months more of this stuff…scary.
Theres going to be 10 zillion words written on the draft pick as well
May 19th, 2010 at 5:44 pm
blentzen
May 19th, 2010 at 4:24 pm
“Richard Jefferson, and try to pawn him off on some other unsuspecting team that thinks he’s so darned great.”
That’s not going to happen. RJ is now exposed.
“Find Mason, Jr. a home where he will be happy, because I think his heart is not in SA anymore.”
We are not going to have anything to say about RMJ. He’s a free agent. Good riddance, and good luck. Thanks for 2008-2009.
“They need to work with Bogans to make him the defensive player that was Bruce Bowen.”
Never going to happen. Forget about it.
May 19th, 2010 at 5:49 pm
“That kind of trade is moving something that doesn’t subtract from our team for something that improves it.”
Well, honestly any piece worth trading probably substracts something. I’m guessing you mean not take away from a position of need. Sadly, since what we really need is depth, we have need at all positions.
Jim,
I don’t know about needing 9 , but if Manu and TD decline, 7 may be too little. Especially if we need to mange their minutes more in the playoffs. I agree there are a lot of ifs. Of course, that’s really true in every scenario. I think my strategy is more on along the lines of taking a lot of little chances vs. a few bigger ones.
May 19th, 2010 at 5:58 pm
I would just like to reiterate a point from the main entry. Keeping the three intact does not guarantee a title, it does not make them in any way a favorite for one. But it is their best chance for next year and they are good enough right now that if things fall into place just right-that being the right playoff matchups, injuries, or a trade deadline opportunity-that they could step right into another Finals appearance. It’s about as much as you can ask for the next year or two. Titles take some luck, but luck favors the prepared.
That being said, while I’ve not based my arguments off blind loyalty I will say if “it’s a business” is your motto, then Duncan is not untouchable either.
Couple thoughts: The Memphis Grizzlies deal proposed-remember that Parker is a free agent after next season. Do you think he resigns with Memphis? If the Grizzlies are just looking for an expiring contract, which is what Parker would be to them, then why not just take Richard Jefferson’s much larger contract?
The difference in Parker and Hill as combo guards is that Parker generates his own shots and other peoples shots. Hill does not. If you follow the career paths of the great point guards, no one just learned creativity. They already had it, refined it, and learned how to use it. Hill possesses none of those qualities.
Regarding Splitter: the Greek economy is collapsing and the Euro historically follows. So there is no guarantee he has significantly more money over there. And as far as how he translates, he’s the top big guy in the second best league in the world (far superior to NCAA)-something that translated well for Scola.
Trading Parker for a young scorer to take the load of the veterans is redundant, what do you think Parker is? I’ve already stated the problems with trading Parker with the concession made that the trade would be with the future in mind and not next year. Because there are few trades involving Parker that would improve the team more than a healthy Parker next season-which is all I’m concerned with for reasons I stated.
May 19th, 2010 at 6:21 pm
@tradeTP
We’ll just have to agree to disagree.
May 19th, 2010 at 6:28 pm
How these Final Four teams were built, for what it’s worth:
Boston-were horribly bad long enough to acquire enough assets and depth to trade for a top-five player (Garnett) to buttress their original top-ten draft pick (Pierce) and another All-Star player (Jesus Shuttlesworth). Remain a force because of the development of Rondo, who fits into my Hill argument (Rondo has always been a creative, true point guard-he’s just harnessed that ability).
Los Angeles-Traded Shaq for Lamar Odom and spare parts (eventually just Kwame Brown). And before this example is used to argue for trading Parker, the difference is Kobe was still a top-three player in the league AND in his prime. That being said, they still missed the playoffs and bottomed out long enough to pickup Bynum. Were terribly mediocre for some time after that until Chris Wallace (the worst GM not named Thomas in NBA history) handed them one of the league’s top big men for nothing.
Orlando-Bottomed out long enough to pick up no. 1 pick Dwight Howard. Were bad enough for some time after that to pick up more depth. Surrounded Howard with appropriate supporting pieces.
Phoenix-Were terrible enough to pick up Amare. Lured Steve Nash back to Phoenix. Traded an aging part of their core (Marion) in an attempt for Shaq. Traded bad contracts (Diaw and Bell-Diaw was seldom useful after that MIP season, and Bell had clearly lost a step defensively, only no one remembers because he got hurt (wrist) and played in Charlotte) for another bad contract (Richardson) that fit better and a throw-in that panned out (Dudley). Then they got lucky on some minimum deals (Frye and Amundson) and got a good second round pick (Dragic).
Of the teams that rebuilt on the fly-or that could be said to-the Lakers kept a young, top three player (Kobe) and still were horrible following that, picking up Bynum and lucking out with Gasol. Phoenix found themselves in the same situation as the Spurs, but they stayed the course and made a few moves that the Spurs could reasonably make and now have a Western Conference Finals appearance.
The other two teams were horrible long enough to build on the fly. And even Boston retained their in-his-prime cornerstone (Pierce).
Some things to consider also-their will be a new CBA, conceivably to protect the owners from themselves. And that being the case, how many more franchise player salary dumps will there be after that? I’m not saying there won’t be, but it’s a reasonable question. That leaves free agency (how often have we lured young franchise players here this way?) and the draft (which, again, you have to be bad enough to acquire a franchise talent through this).
May 19th, 2010 at 6:39 pm
Jesse Blanchard
May 19th, 2010 at 5:58 pm
“That being said, while I’ve not based my arguments off blind loyalty I will say if “it’s a business” is your motto, then Duncan is not untouchable either.”
Duncan is principally untradeable because NOBODY is going to assume his 22 MILLION DOLLAR contract, and give us anything acceptable back in return. That is strictly a “business” reality. In addition, trading Duncan is essentially cutting the heart out of the teams offensive system. The franchise is not prepared at this time to effectively accommodate such a radical move.
“Couple thoughts: The Memphis Grizzlies deal proposed–remember that Parker is a free agent after next season. Do you think he resigns with Memphis?”
True, Memphis would only consider such a deal if Tony, along with Gay, agreed to a sign & trade contract of 3 years or more. Otherwise, it would be a silly idea. I’m not BIG on the proposal anyway.
“The difference in Parker and Hill as combo guards is that Parker generates his own shots and other peoples shots. Hill does not.”
Generally speaking, I agree with this point. I think Hill’s future is very likely limited to a SG or combo role. And this is why I’m more leery of trading TP without the “right” PG in return (which “partially” defeats the purpose), as opposed to trading Manu. They’re both hard to let go of, but trading TP is a bit scarier for me. I sometimes think people underestimate that TP is really a pretty good fit for our team, and may not be as good of a fit on most other teams that could conceivably have interest.
May 19th, 2010 at 6:43 pm
@Jesse Blanchard - I’d say Phoenix was lucky to face the Spurs this POs. They had a favorable match-up and would it have been Dallas they had to play with, it would not have ended with a 4-game sweep (although I think it wasn’t a ‘ORL destroyed ATL all series long’ sort of sweep - the games were quite competitive afterall despite the obvious match up issues). I do agree with three other examples. SA simply doesn’t have the foundation to start all over at this point.
May 19th, 2010 at 6:58 pm
I might have to take back what I said about the Suns if they end up winning tonight’s game… way to embarass me Phoenix! haha
May 19th, 2010 at 7:05 pm
Jesse,
I think your analysis about Splitter’s situation and his potential impact is right on.
But I think you miss the point re: replacing Parker. The suggestion isn’t to just replace him with another scorer. That would be redundant and perhaps counterproductive. The point is to replace him with a younger scorer, with a longer contract, at a different position.
Part of this is because I think there’s a very real chance that we’ll lose Tony at the end of next season anyway. He will be very expensive to retain. More to the point, I hav my doubts that he’ll want to re-sign long term with a team that will be without Tim and Manu halfway through his contract. Then we lose him and get nothing.
As to Hill, George Hill is not as good as Tony Parker. That’s undeniably true. But he’s pretty good and getting better. Plus he’s much cheaper. And besides, he doesn’t need to be TP.
These arbitrary rules for what makes for a worthwhile point guard are just that- arbitrary. Fully half of the remaining teams in the playoffs have merely good-to-okay point guards. And that half happen to be the two teams that played for the championship last year. And the team that won had the weakest of the four guards.
Additionally, the team with the best regular season record this year had a point guard that was merely …not bad.
The point isn’t to win a 80′s era Superstars competition. It’s to win a championship. And this team ain’t winning a championship without a shakeup of our no-longer-quite-good-enough core. The assumption that the opposite is true is the assumption I’m challenging as flawed. Nothing about the last three seasons supports the assertion that we’ve still got the horses.
Things rarely “fall into place just right” in the NBA. Far more often, the team with the best roster wins. The last time I can remember really being surprised by the outcome of a season was 2004, when the Pistons beat the Lakers. Prior to that, I’d say it was the mid-90′s Rockets. So maybe things “fall into place” every seven or eight years. My point- the best team usually wins. And we’re not even close to being in the room where they have that discussion.
Suggesting that our best shot to win a title is to somehow tape this team up, add a few extra pieces, send it out and… hope… is akin to saying that all The Rolling Stones need to do to get back to the top of the charts is get some new strings for Keith’s guitar and replace a few roadies. It’s just nostalgia. The Rolling Stones are good. But they’re not knocking Justin Beiber or Lady Gaga out of the top slot anytime soon. But if they got a new drummer, say Jack White, who knows? Sure, he doesn’t have the institutional knowledge of Charlie Watts. But if you want to get back on top, that’s the kind of move you’ve got to make. Now of you just like watching Charlie play more, if you just like him more in general, that’s fine. But that’s nostalgia.
It’s admittedly a clumsy metaphor, but I think it clarifies how easy it is to cling to something that’s not worth the emotional investment, especially when letting go might free us up for something better.
May 19th, 2010 at 7:11 pm
Regarding trading Manu to OKC-okay, so you pick up Harden and Kristic or another young big (probably won’t be Ibaka) and are worse off next season. That’s not an assumption, that’s a fact. Harden with Parker and Duncan are still good enough to get a 7th or 8th seed, which leaves your draft picks in the 20s-but you’re not contending (while losing a huge portion of your season ticket base AND likely having to face Ginobili with an already scary Thunder team in the playoffs-because karma works that way..and if OKC wins a title…..ooooh, you don’t even want to know the San Antonio reaction).
Eventually, in a best case scenario, Harden becomes an All-Star. But will he be good enough to be the best player on a contending team. Or the second best player?
We’ll find out soon, because eventually Duncan retires and Parker fades. Then Harden is your best young player.
The scouting report on Harden coming out of college was a lesser version of Brandon Roy. He was selected not for the possibility of becoming a flat out stud, but because he was going to be a good player that “fit in” next to the Thunder stars. At his peak is he Roy? Is he Joe Johnson?
Then you have Hill and Blair. Does Hill turn into Gary Payton? His current skill set suggests not, but if you can find me one point guard who could not create his own shot or passing lanes through two seasons only to become that All-Star guy, I’ll hear the argument.
Does Blair become Barkley? He doesn’t have the athleticism. It’s painful to remember that he may not even have the longevity (I’m not saying he won’t, but with the knees you just don’t know). Can he be your anchor big man? What’s a reasonable peak for him? Millsap? Boozer? Even that is just Millsap and Boozer-which hasn’t worked out well for Utah in the titles department. And again, even Utah nabbed a top player at a key position (Williams) through a lottery pick.
Then what assets do you have? Perhaps we trade RJ at the deadline, but even he is just going to fetch an overpriced 2nd or 3rd tier guy. For grins, let’s say Andre Iguodala (it may not be him, but it will be a player like him…one who was miscast as a top guy and paid like one), who will be available for a salary dump after the 76ers draft a player at the same position with the no. 2 overall pick.
By your estimation, Harden, Hill, Blair and Kristic (or big man x and a later first round draft pick) and maybe a piece for RJ are the core of a playoff team. So let’s roll with that even if I do not believe this to be true.
So now the starting lineup consists of a point guard who can hit jump shots but doesn’t really create. A sweet shooting, reliable defending shooting guard in Harden who will not be Bryant or Wade, but maybe he can be Joe Johnson and a long shot to be Roy. A big guy in Kristic who is young, but not very mobile. A defensively challenged power forward/center (sorry, but Blair always will be this). And whoever RJ or the late draft or free agency can bring in at small forward.
Where do the rest of the pieces come from? What’s the rest of the plan to keep contending on the fly? In a best case scenario, you have a bunch of good, young supporting pieces whose peak will come long after Duncan’s ability to lead them. And if they are good enough, as is the assumption, to remain in the playoffs-where does that one elite player to tie it all together come from? Because remember, you don’t have lottery picks.
And if you do get lottery picks, doesn’t that throw out the whole point of rebuilding on the fly so as not to bottom out?
To me, I can see where you’re coming from, but there are far too many questions listed there to just blow even a small opportunity to win a title now. Because it’s still an opportunity-the Spurs now are still closer to LA, Boston, Orlando and Phoenix than they are to being a Milwaukee, Atlanta, Memphis or Houston.
By the way, if you didn’t think Iguodala could be had for salary dumps before, they will now most certainly pick Turner at no. 2 which will make Iggy redundant. Teams know this, so his trade value drops.
Anyways, I do not write all these things to single you out or anything. All basketball discussions are enjoyable from my point of view. I just don’t see the plan here.
May 19th, 2010 at 7:31 pm
Syd,
I think I mentioned that Buford would listen to offers. But if you want a title, you have to not only get back an established scorer to step in right away and pick up some of Parker’s slack, but you also have to address outside shooting AND front court defense-otherwise all you are doing is redistributing where the scoring is coming from. I just don’t see a team giving up all of that for Parker. Like I said, a team hoping to get Parker would have to be a viable contender to retain him. The Spurs would have to get an equivalent player AND depth to make it worth their while. I cannot think of a reasonable deal that provides all of that.
And so far as affording Parker? They could afford both he AND Jefferson now, and Jefferson expires after next season. So why would it be inconceivable to resign him for next year? New York and Miami are going for broke this summer, and the Lakers are over the cap. What contending team can afford to make him an offer that beats the Spurs? I think his desire to win is seriously underrated. The guy is tough, fearless, he plays hurt, he plays aggressive. I would dare say he is as tough as Manu Ginobili (just not as good).
My point is that the Spurs might not win a title with this group again. That’s just reality. The Spurs only won so many because Duncan was clearly the best player on the floor every night. That’s no longer the case. But there is an opportunity. And that opportunity deserves to be explored.
And true, All-NBA point guards are not necessary to compete in this NBA. But dribble penetration is. The Lakers get it from Kobe and Odom. The Suns from Nash, Dragic and Barbosa. The Celtics from Rondo. The Magic will lose because they lack it. It allows the defense to focus in on all of their shooters.
The strength of this team’s offense is not Duncan in the post anymore. It hasn’t been for some time. Each of the scouting reports for facing the Spurs, dating back to the 2007 title team, starts with controlling Manu AND Tony off the dribble.
May 19th, 2010 at 8:37 pm
i’ll confess to a touch of sentimentalism in my advocacy of retaining the big 3, but i feel sound in my logic as well.
trading tp or manu doesn’t necessarily increase our chances for a title, even if it brings in younger and faster players. while i like pieces like harden and gay (banish the thought of foye), i don’t feel like they upgrade us enough within our window, or even open a new one, especially when subtracting the talent (which i think many undersell) of either piece we’re giving up.
therefore, i’m still on record for tweaks. i still believe that our three biggest weaknesses/needs are:
1) an athletic big who can execute pick and roll defense (i’m sorry, shot-blocking is nice but overrated)
2) a lockdown wing
3) 3pt shooting
1) sign tiago. without him, i don’t think we stand a chance. we need size yes, but we need size that can hustle, and from what i’ve seen of him, he’s the answer.
2) after the lottery, i think our ceiling is this:
if philly picks evan turner, which is highly possible, considering his talent, it makes iggy expendable. logically, and according to numerous sources, this would push philly to shed iggy’s salary. our ideal would be to swap rj for iggy and an extra piece of their choosing. there are a number of combinations that might work, but the key is if philly picks turner. if that doesn’t happen, i think a quinton ross/mbah a moute type player is our only hope.
3) anthony morrow. we need someone who can hit the 3 in his sleep, and he’s been the best for the last 2 seasons. retaining bonner wouldn’t hurt as well, as long as it’s at a discount (c’mon red rocket, you went colder than margaret thatcher in the last 2 playoffs).
i think this gives us as good a shot as any, while still retaining our big 3. i’ve been a spurs fan for decades because of our class, and that includes sticking by our vested veterans. yes, i love winning, but i believe in our humanity more than anything. make all the sexist, derogatory comments you like, TradeTp.
May 19th, 2010 at 8:49 pm
Jesse Blanchard
May 19th, 2010 at 7:11 pm
“Perhaps we trade RJ at the deadline, but even he is just going to fetch an overpriced 2nd or 3rd tier guy. For grins, let’s say Andre Iguodala (it may not be him, but it will be a player like him…one who was miscast as a top guy and paid like one), who will be available for a salary dump after the 76ers draft a player at the same position with the no. 2 overall pick.”
Although you have not directly advocated this trade, I have mixed feeling about a trade for AI. There is a great possibility that AI is gone this summer if they pick Evan Turner. In fact, it was rumored that Philly was looking to unload him this last year at the trade deadline. If we could only be so lucky as to get a talent LIKE AI for RJ. This type of trade, along with getting Splitter, could help pry open the Spurs championship window. My only concern would be the bench/3pt shooter sitaution.
Granted, I agree that AI might be slightly overpaid, but he is not paid like a top player. He’s paid like a second or third best player on a team. In fact, his salary is virtually identical to Parker’s. Iggy would not only be a better scorer than RJ since he’s much more creative off the dribble, he would also be that defensive stopper that Pop needs. The real question for me would be whether or not AI could play the SF position instead of the SG position. If we were to trade for him, how would we repair our bench and add the necessary 3pt shooters. Perhaps others can weigh in on this trade suggestion.
May 19th, 2010 at 11:09 pm
Jesse Blanchard
May 19th, 2010 at 6:28 pm
“How these Final Four teams were built, for what it’s worth:”
Boston either sucked or was mediocre for a long time between 1993 and 2007, 15 LONG years, a period in which they NEVER once won 50+ games, which included a handful of sporadic playoff appearances in which the majority of their exits were in the first round. What Boston should have done is trade one of their revered three (Bird, Parrish, McHale), McHale, in 1990, to another playoff contender, while his value was still solid, in order to pick up some “young” solid pieces with potential that would fill critical needs on the team going forward. The moral of the story: Don’t cling to your stars from the glory years to the overall detriment of the franchise. Red Auerbach was brilliant, but he blew this one. The rest of the story Jesse fills in on a previous comment on this thread.
Los Angeles - The following is the key excerpt from Jesse’s comment:
” (the Lakers) Were terribly mediocre for some time after that until Chris Wallace (the worst GM not named Thomas in NBA history) handed them one of the league’s top big men for nothing.”
They also had a little “insider” help in the deal from former Laker legend, and former Memphis GM/director of basketball operations, Jerry West. In fact Popovich was complaining at the time about how outrageous the circumstances were that surrounded one of the biggest steals in NBA history. The moral of the story: If we can get lucky like that, we’ve got no problems.
Orlando - The Magic’s long trek into mediocrity began when they thought it was a good idea to trade one of the most dominant big men of the modern era to the Lakers in 1996. Then they got snake bit by injuries, which pretty much ruined the career, for example, of their star point guard, “Penny” Hardaway, beginning in 1998. They didn’t bottom until 2003, after they somehow lost Grant Hill, Mike Miller, & Darrell Armstrong, who accounted for more than 40 points between the three of them the year prior, and pretty much got back Juwan Howard, who put up 17 ppg. They also lost two veteran banger’s in the paint, Shawn Kemp & Horace Grant. After that they made some good acquisitions in Turkolu & Lewis. They got a 20th pick in Nelson, and Jesse fills in the rest by pointing out the good fortune of signing the lottery pick in Dwight Howard. It took the team 6 years from that point to get to a Conference Final - still no title (by the way, just so you know, most lottery picks don’t turn out to be “great” NBA players, like Dwight Howard - and you don’t have to draft a top 10 pick to get a star - also, there are teams that don’t get a title with there own drafting of a top ten lottery pick [Pistons, for example] - just wanted to get that out there in the open).
Phoenix - The Suns fortunes changed when they had the cap space to sign Nash as a free agent in 2004. They had a sub-five-hundred year the year before that allowed them to pick up Amare as the 9th overall pick. Since then, they’ve made a slew of moves/trades that have miraculously turned out positive enough to keep them in the playoffs, and above 50 wins most of the time, but they haven’t, and still aren’t, “real” contenders (give them credit though for over-achieving this year).
The point is, teams often make trades or fee agent acquisitions to get top picks, AND get lucky with lower picks when one looks back on how a championship team was assembled. And Harden is a player that could be a part of that pattern (a number 3 pick in 2009). On the other hand, excellent teams can consign themselves to a long period of frustration & mediocrity by holding on too long to their stars of the past (e.g., Celtics of the early 1990′s).
May 19th, 2010 at 11:30 pm
Here’s my proposal…
Step 1) Trade Tony Parker (13.5m, expire in 2011) and Richard Jefferson (15m, expire in 2011) to the Raptors for Chris Bosh (Sign-and-trade, more or less at 17m depending on the cap) and Jose Calderon (9m, expire in 2013).
Why the Raptors would do it: They are going to lose Bosh anyway, so any compensation would be a welcome, and Tony Parker is not really a bad player. They are regretting to have given Calderon that contract, and this trade will get him off from their books. And the best part is that both Parker and Jefferson will expire next summer. So if they don’t like the duo, they can’t choose not to resign them and start over, not to mention they will be huge trade baits coming next February. A godfather offer the Raptors can’t possibly refuse.
Why Bosh would do it: He’s a Texas guy, and it has often been mentioned in the media that he is not as star-struck as other guys (LBJ I am looking at you) are. So having spent his career in a metropolitan city like Toronto for so long, he might opt for a quiter environment. And there is this poetic structure to this passing of the torch thing going on here (Robinson to Duncan; Duncan to Bosh). And the Spurs is one of the best run franchinse in the league. So if Bosh is serious about winning, I don’t see why he would turn down San Antonio. Pairing with Wade or LBJ or Kobe would be nice, but he will be the second-banana in all those scenario.
May 19th, 2010 at 11:31 pm
Step Two: Sign Tiago Splitter with the Mid-Level, and then trade him to Houston for Shane Battier.
Why the Rockets would do it - Whether they will resign Scola or not, they are relatively thin at the front. Chucky Hayes and Jordan Hill are probably only good for backup duties, and there is no promise that Yao will be healthy. Splitter is one of the best player playing in Europe, and will provide them with a Yao insurance. They also have redundancy at the wings with Martins at the 2, Ariza at the 3 as well as Jeffiers and Budinger as backup. No reason for the Rockets not to do this trade.
Step Three: Offer Anthony Morrow the Bi-Annual exception
So the Spurs will have the following 9-player rotation:
Starters: Calderon, Ginobili, Battier, Bosh, Duncan
Bench: Geroge Hill, Morrow, DeJuan Blair, Antonio McDyess
May 19th, 2010 at 11:31 pm
*continued* and the Spurs owns a pick around 20th in this draft. If they pick a good swingman their roster will get 10 deep, and significantly younger.
What the above moves will do to the Spurs:
Most important, Bosh’s presence will allow Timmy to slide to center, where he can cover the slower player and don’t have to chase around the Fyres and Dirks on the perimeter or defend the likes of Amare and Aldridge in pick and roll situation. This will add life to Duncan’s career. And Timmy will be beneficial to Bosh’s development too, kind of like what Robinson did to Duncan himself.
Second of all I think Calderon is a good player and just need a new environment. Under Pop he stands a good chance to get his old game back. And he is the kind of player SA likes - no non-sense and efficient on offense. Best of all he won’t cramp the driving lanes for Ginobili as Parker did (one big reason why Pop use Manu as a 6th man). His defense sucks, but it’s not like Parker is an all-world defender either.
One thing lacking from the nowadays Spurs compared with the old dominating one is a lack of a dominating perimeter defender (Bruce Bowen). Battier will fill that role. And don’t you think Battier is born to be a Spur? Losing Splitter hurts, but Spurs already have a nice big man rotation with Bosh , Duncan, Blair and McDyess in place.
Last but not least is Anthony Morrow. The Spurs needs a dead-eye marksman to spread the floor, and Morrow already proves he’s deadly in GS.
May 19th, 2010 at 11:32 pm
By the way, in the perfect world I would prefer to trade McDyess and our 20th pick to Houston for Battier and retain Splitter’s rights. But do you think the Rockets will bite?
That way our rotation will be :
PG Calderon
SG Ginobili
SF Battier
PF Bosh
C Duncan
Bench- Hill, Morrow, Bogans, Blair, Splitter
Not bad at all.
May 19th, 2010 at 11:36 pm
@Jim Henderson - you should stop posting about getting Harden because in no way will OKC send Harden for Ginobili (or anyone in Spurs roster for that matter). How about looking at what the GM Sam Presti has been doing with his team and the likelihood of him actually doing a big trade like the one you suggest. That’s right - very slim to none. Put it to rest already.
I can understand your reasoning behind the need to break the core and get a young prospect in return, but OKC isn’t in dire need of a championship-tested veterans right now, and won’t likely give up their young prospects just yet.
May 20th, 2010 at 1:33 am
Jesse Blanchard
May 19th, 2010 at 7:11 pm
“Regarding trading Manu to OKC–okay, so you pick up Harden and Kristic or another young big (probably won’t be Ibaka) and are worse off next season. That’s not an assumption, that’s a fact.”
First of all, the deal was to trade Manu & McDyess for Harden, Krstic (or Collison), AND D.J. White, OR one of their 1st round picks. Second, there’s no way to tell for sure if we’d be worse off next year. That IS an assumption on YOUR part. It is NOT a fact. It is possible that we’d be better next year, and quite likely that we would be better in all subsequent years, due to the natural pattern of ascent for the “younger” incoming players, and the normal pattern of decline associated with the “older” outgoing players involved. “IF” things go the way that you speculate, it could be a little rough for the fans at the end of year one. That said, as long as the coaching staff and players feel like they’re heading in the right direction, and they come back in year two, and let’s say make it to the WCF, I don’t think the fans will be too worried, especially if they come back and oust the Thunder in the playoffs that year. All are conceivable scenarios, depending on the upgrades we’re able to make in the meantime to fill other critical needs (e.g., shooters, perimeter defender, depth, youth & size on the front line, and internal growth).
“Eventually, in a best case scenario, Harden becomes an All-Star. But will he be good enough to be the best player on a contending team. Or the second best player?”
In my view, he could definitely become the second best player, maybe the first, it’s too early to tell. If people could tell for sure, we would NEVER be able acquire him in this deal in the first place.
“We’ll find out soon, because eventually Duncan retires and Parker fades. Then Harden is your best young player.”
Well, Parker has several good years left, and so by that time he really fades, Harden will have plenty of company: Hill could become a borderline all-star, 6th man of the year type player, and Blair has Boozer potential written all over him. We also have a number 20 pick this year, draft picks over the next few years, Duncan’s further decline or retirement will free up significant salary space to potentially allow us to sign a young, top FA at some point, and if Splitter comes over he’ll still be in his late twenties. Trust me, Hardens not the only star we’re going to come up with in the next few years, but he’s a good start, and he may very well be obtainable, now. We should seriously consider pulling the trigger on such a deal.
“The scouting report on Harden coming out of college was a lesser version of Brandon Roy. He was selected not for the possibility of becoming a flat out stud, but because he was going to be a good player that “fit in” next to the Thunder stars.”
I know the 2009 draft was not the strongest, but don’t you think you might be under-selling, by just a tad, the third pick in the draft that year?
“Then you have Hill and Blair. Does Hill turn into Gary Payton?”
I’ve never said that Hill was going to become a superstar point guard. There’s not many Gary Payton’s in the world, lets get real. That said, Hill could become an excellent combo guard that plays an extremely valuable role on a championship team. In fact, I would not trade him - you’re not going to get the value back. And I’m willing to bet that he makes great strides again next year. Look for him to improve his defense, and his dribble drive penetration.
“Does Blair become Barkley?…….Can he be your anchor big man? What’s a reasonable peak for him? Millsap? Boozer? Even that is just Millsap and Boozer–which hasn’t worked out well for Utah in the titles department.
I don’t see Blair as Barkley. He’s not fast enough. Even though Barkley was pretty big, he was VERY fast. As I said previously, Boozer is the best comparison. They have very similar skills. Blair just never was asked to work much on his jumper at Pitt. With his physical dominance at the college level, they had other more practical priorities for him: rebound & score the ball around the rim, & dunk it. But he’s got great hands, great touch on the ball, a very competitive, determined, and easy to coach attitude. Players need talent, but they makes themselves into something really special with work ethic & attitude. Also, don’t sell Boozer short just because the Jazz haven’t gotten to the finals with him. There’s a whole host of reasons for that. As you know, it’s very difficult to win a title. But Blair, he can definitely be a go-to-guy in the sense of Boozer. And most teams would take that any day of the week.
“Then what assets do you have? Perhaps we trade RJ at the deadline, but even he is just going to fetch an overpriced 2nd or 3rd tier guy. For grins, let’s say Andre Iguodala …..”
If we could ever get lucky enough to get Iggy for RJ, I’d take that in a heartbeat, although he’s locked in for four years at 12 mil per., so there’s always the financial aspects that we’d have to look at carefully.
“By your estimation, Harden, Hill, Blair and Kristic (or big man x and a later first round draft pick) and maybe a piece for RJ are the core of a playoff team.”
I think you forgot that we still have a fairly competent legend at PF named Tim Duncan in the mix, along with the one year removed all-NBA PG Tony Parker.
“A defensively challenged power forward/center (sorry, but Blair always will be this).”
Blair will likely never be a great defender, but he could very well improve a great deal. Again, similar to Boozer, developing the strip down low tactic, and just learning how not to commit unnecessary fouls, get better defensive positioning, and of course, the final verse of “defense”, clearing off the defensive boards. We’ll still need a guy like Splitter or better to hold down the middle & protect the rim.
“Where do the rest of the pieces come from? What’s the rest of the plan to keep contending on the fly? In a best case scenario, you have a bunch of good, young supporting pieces whose peak will come long after Duncan’s ability to lead them. And if they are good enough, as is the assumption, to remain in the playoffs–where does that one elite player to tie it all together come from? Because remember, you don’t have lottery picks.”
You’re essentially asking me to predict ahead of time what all our moves are going to be in the next two to three years to get the pieces in place to “truly” contend again for the title. Sorry, but no one’s a soothsayer. The Harden deal in and of itself is not going to be the ONLY move necessary to get us over the top. To suggest such a thing is ridiculous. We have other means to address additional needs as well (e.g. shooter, perimeter defender, a Splitter type big), such as MLE, FA signings, the draft, RJ’s expiring, and other trades, if necessary, etc. I am suggesting the Harden trade as an important opening salvo to accomplishing two critical needs at this time: (1) Get more quality youth; and (2) Get taller & bigger. And as far as Duncan, if we build some help around him with some young, exciting talents, and some competent, young “BIGS” to lessen his load, maybe he’ll be willing to stick around for another fours years. Without that, he’ll likely retire at the end of his contract, in two years. If he stayed the extra two years, that would be plenty of time for Hill, Blair, and Harden, to approach their peak years (and who knows who else at that point might become strong young players on our team - more could be on the way - in fact, we could strike it rich with the draft this year, or even with the third guy in the OKC deal - who knows?). You don’t have a crystal ball, and I don’t have a crystal ball. We do know one thing, not all lottery picks become stars, and some non-lottery picks become stars. RC & Pop have as good of a history as anyone on finding “diamonds in the rough”. So we’ll see.
“To me, I can see where you’re coming from, but there are far too many questions listed there to just blow even a small opportunity to win a title now.”
I don’t agree. I think our opportunity to win a title with the big three is so small that to not pull the trigger on a deal like the OKC one is a BIG mistake. We are effectively consigning ourselves to a MAJOR rebuilding effort in the next few years by keeping TP AND Manu. We will have very little shot at winning a title for several years. What are we going to do if we fail to acquire a star, and some young, important role players while we watch TD & Manu play out the string? It will take years to rebuild to a championship level at that point. And we simply do not have the means to acquire the talent now to begin the process of “rebuilding on the run” without making a major trade. No cap space, no money, and no magic wand.
“By the way, if you didn’t think Iguodala could be had for salary dumps before, they will now most certainly pick Turner at no. 2 which will make Iggy redundant. Teams know this, so his trade value drops.”
Well, you raise a good point here, but we’ll see how all this plays out on draft day.
The bottom line: You think we have a shot at winning a title with the big three. And I don’t. You think it’s inevitable that we need to head for a crash in the post-Duncan years, to get a top 5-10 lottery pick, and then pretty much rebuild from a low point. And I do not.
I appreciate the debate. I just don’t see a title with riding out the status quo. In my view, we’ll be lucky to get the the WCF in the next two years with the big three still in place. And after that, we could be in big trouble. With a trade like the OKC one, we have a shot at building a very strong team in the next couple of years, and beyond.
May 20th, 2010 at 1:53 am
Alright Jim Henderson,
(1) Just for the sake of argument… there are PLENTY of teams that would (rightly) jump at taking TD and his contract at this stage… Houston, Orlando, Portland, Utah, Chicago, Dallas, Boston (in lieu of Wallace and Allen’s contracts) just to name a few teams who would love to win a championship or two, and then let his contract expire after giving their younger core a championship pedigree and his mentorship. Even the likes of New Jersey, New York, or Miami would take him for the same reasons and/or the same dreams, but on a good team, he may be the missing piece.
(2) The notion that “we are not going to win a championship with the Big 3 again” although true, doesn’t mean you look to trade that core either… any players you trade them for are not gonna win you a championship either. Bosh can not be had. Even if you could get Harden in exchange for declining talent (which you can’t), a James Harden or Rudy Gay aren’t good enough to get you a trophy, not in the near term, and not after TD is gone. You have something between Williams’ Jazz, Roy’s Blazers, and Brooks’ Rockets. A team that is stuck exactly where the Spurs are now… a perennial 5-9 seed.
While I believe that the FO will probably listen to any and all offers, but they know that replacing (a) even a declining TD and Manu, (b) chemistry, and (c) championship IQ is not likely to result in rings in the near future… in truth, though some of you doubt it, building around what we got, is our only bet. After that, going into the lottery is where the Spurs’ will need and want to be to try build back toward contention when a new franchise player is drafted.
(3) I repeat, you can’t get Bosh (and I’m not sure he’s the answer anyway). And stars in the making aren’t gonna be traded away for declining vets. Guys like Miller + Foye sure as hell are NOT the answer.
HOWEVER, If a team wants to blow it up like Washington just did, or gives up on a star (Memphis with Gasol, or Phoenix with Kidd) then there is potential. Also if a talented player wants to a better opportunity, or when a team just is going younger (such as Kings trading away Martin.) So adding guys like T Prince becomes doable (we’ve seen them trade away freaking Billups for an expiring, and now pretty much have to blow it up). That, plus opening up the check book is the only shot we’ve got.
—-> So my point is if Holt wants to win again, BY FAR the best odds are with TD and probably Manu… yes, the Big 3 aren’t enough… no big 3 is (Boston and LA, and even Dallas, have more of a Big 5, and an additional pair 0f special role-players. I never liked the 09 summer acquisitions when we needed a Camby more. I have no problem watching the FO go all in with some older guys. 2-3 young legs are enough, but we do need talent, size, defense, and shooting- it doesn’t have to be the future of the organization (which is pipe dream anyway, Gay or Harden types will NEVER be MVP caliber). Rudy Gay is soft, and will disappear when you need him. Young guys like Collison can’t be had, but the only way you win with him in place of Parker, is if you spend money bringing in Bigs and a bonafide small forward.
Maybe we do trade Tony, IF we get equal talent back. Getting role players WON’T do it. Would I take Magette’s contract? Yes, he’s always been a more efficient scorer than RJ: night and day. He’s not the character guy than RJ is, but what’s that doing for us. I like guys with some hunger and a chip on their shoulder (Mario Ellie). I would take Maggette AND Miller, or Ray Allen AND Prince. I would take Jermaine O’Neal and Splitter. Allen and Miller are good playmakers; Manu + you get a cheap point guard and you can afford to lose RJ and TP. That’s just a few examples, there are plenty of other guys who can fit into place and give you a talented core. Yes, you’re over the cap for a few years, but you’re destined to be well under the cap after TD retires, so it’s called going All In.
- You can forget trying to trade for young future All-Stars.
- Trading talent for role-players is sum-negative.
- You gotta get Big, and you gotta get, if not a Big 5, certainly a Bonafide 6-7. (If we could keep TP as part of that larger core of guys, and think him as a 6th Man (even if he’s the starter), I like our chances even better. TP really should be a 6th man. But Tony said he’s gonna train harder than ever this summer, maybe he improves his shot — he may have his best year coming up, his contract year.)
- We either upgrade and go over the cap for a while, or forget it: Welcome to more of the same.
May 20th, 2010 at 2:03 am
Ian
May 19th, 2010 at 11:36 pm
“How about looking at what the GM Sam Presti has been doing with his team and the likelihood of him actually doing a big trade like the one you suggest. That’s right – very slim to none. Put it to rest already.”
What is your evidence? What is your logic? Where are your “flies on the wall” in Sam Presti’s office?
“…..but OKC isn’t in dire need of a championship-tested veterans right now.”
What are you talking about? A team where the top ten players average 23 years old, and made a good showing in their first playoffs, but got ousted in the first round. They’re not in need of championship-tested & talented veterans to try and get them to the next level? Do you know of any team that has won a title when their players average 23 years old, and have NO experienced veterans (Krstic is the closest they come on the whole team)? Do you think your buddy, Sam Presti, wants to win a title, NEXT YEAR? Or is he just going to sit back and fantasize about his dream team coming to fruition some day? Do you really think Manu & McDyess added to that young talent would not provide them with a legitimate shot? Do you really think that losing Harden would blow-up Presti’s long-term vision of some made-up dynasty? The Thunder have TOO MANY young stars on their team, believe it or not. There’s only one ball, and ultimately there’s NO WAY they keep ALL those guys together for a long time anyway (Durant, Westbrook, Green, Ibaka all have major star written all over them). And you think they can make it all work out over the next several years by keeping Harden as well, the number three pick in the 2009 draft? It’s never been done, and never will be done. And I’m sure Mr. Presti is quite aware of this looming predicament.
Perhaps it’s just that you can’t bear the thought of losing Ginobli? No offense, but if you don’t like my Harden posts, don’t read them.
May 20th, 2010 at 2:12 am
In short, I agree completely with Jesse Blanchard other than that I’m not ready to give up just yet.
It’s hard when it’s your team not winning rings, but as an outsider I enjoyed watching Stockton Malone in their later years, and sure as hell loved watching Tim, and esp Manu and Tony (and Hill) against Dallas. Never missing the playoffs adds to their legacy, and keeping it going is worth doing.
But I’m not there yet either, unlike Jesse, I think some great moves are possible, (if unlikely).
Still bleeding Silver and Black, I guess.
May 20th, 2010 at 2:34 am
@Jim,
Sorry, but I disagree with your OKC assessment.
Manu + McD makes OKC better next year. The guys they have now, once they hit their primes in 3-5 years are a legit Big away from being contenders for 10 years, a’la Spurs 99-2008.
Presti know he needs 4 kinds of scorers- yes, one ball is plenty for Durant, Westbrook, Harden + David Lee/Free Agent Bosh/whoever. No, he’s not in desperate win now mode, he’ll let his horses become All-Stars.
Watch and see, Presti isn’t in must-win in 2011 mode. Neither is Durant.
May 20th, 2010 at 2:40 am
td4life
May 20th, 2010 at 1:53 am
“(1) Just for the sake of argument… there are PLENTY of teams that would (rightly) jump at taking TD and his contract at this stage”
Most of those teams could not afford him, and the rebuilding teams that could would likely not do so before the last year on his contract, at best. TD is simply not worth 22 million, and most teams that could benefit with his addition could simply not afford it.
“(2) The notion that “we are not going to win a championship with the Big 3 again” although true, doesn’t mean you look to trade that core either… any players you trade them for are not gonna win you a championship either.”
Nobody is suggesting that the Harden trade, which OKC would be VERY intrigued by, is going to bring us a championship in the first year. You heard it here first, absent some major bit of good fortune (see Gasol deal to the Lakers) WE WILL NOT WIN A CHAMPIONSHIP NEXT YEAR, with or without the Harden trade. The Harden trade, however, WILL provide us with a head start to begin a retooling of the team (younger, bigger, etc.) so that we may begin to position ourselves for title runs in the next two to four years. I hope to have TD play an important role during this period, if we don’t burn him out with insufficient front line help before then (so that he agrees to resign at a reduced salary for his final two years).
“And stars in the making aren’t gonna be traded away for declining vets..”
Harden is an “under the radar” star in the making, and as I’ve stated repeatedly, OKC happens to have an OVERABUNDANCE of young stars in the making, AND Manu Ginobli still has a decent amount of gas in the tank, and he has always been a difference-maker in the right situation. He is a PERFECT fit for OKC at this time, in my view.
“Yes, he’s always been a more efficient scorer than RJ: night and day.”
Can you supply the data to back this claim up? They have almost identical career stats, and have always exhibited a very similar style of play.
I like some of the myriad of players that you rattled off that we might like to have, but how do you plan to acquire any of them?
May 20th, 2010 at 2:58 am
td4life
May 20th, 2010 at 2:34 am
“Presti …… No, he’s not in desperate to win now mode……”
ALL GM’s want to win yesterday, particularly if they are not gutting their future to make it happen. That is exactly the case that I presented. And that’s not desperate, that’s practical.
“The guys they have now, once they hit their primes in 3-5 years are a legit Big away from being contenders for 10 years, a’la Spurs 99-2008.”
But they’re not giving up their top big in the deal, which is clearly Ibaka. Plus they have three first round draft picks this year. They’re very likely to find at least one excellent big right there, and another guard/SF.
Also, you can’t even think about having dynasties for 10 years. They hardly EVER happen, and they are impossible to predict. And by the way, Manu is good for more than one year, maybe three, to give their young guys enough time to take over after they learn from the three-time champion. In fact, he would greatly IMPROVE their chances of developing a dynasty! This is really a good opportunity for both teams. Don’t you see?!?
Anyway, read all my posts, over the last several days, if you like. If you still don’t get it, I’m just about done explaining. But thanks for the interest.
May 20th, 2010 at 3:19 am
@Jim Henderson - If I could ignore your comments I would, but since it’s so bloody long and pretty much everywhere, I just can’t. Although I probably should ignore your comments from now on since you don’t seem to have a clue on what you’re talking about.
1. Since 2007, Presti has been frantically clearing salaries and raking in picks ever since the Thunder (then Seattle Supersonics) drafted Kevin Durant. He had plenty of picks to sell and some expiring contracts to trade before Feb. 2010 trade deadline, but didn’t make a single move even though it might have upgraded the OKC roster. Why then, all of a sudden, would he make a drastic change when he’s been so patient with his squad in the past? It’s not “flies on the wall” Jim, it’s a common knowledge.
2. First of all, I’m not that big fan of Manu. I’d rather see him traded than him injuring himself playing for the national team. I’m not saying your scenario is ridiculous just because I’m fan of his.
Why would OKC want Manu & McDyess (veterans past their prime) eating up valuable minutes that the young players could use to improve themselves? OKC is still a young developing team that can potentially contend for a championship in the near future. They are NOT a championship contender yet (seriously Jim, they just made it to the POs as an eighth seed after a season right at the bottom of the conference), and this young team certainly has room to improve. No, they will not win championship with their current squad this coming season, but Manu & McDyess certainly will not put them over the top either (OKC needs a low-post player, not a mid-range jump shooter like McDyess), in which case it’s just better off developing and evaluating their young players for another season than going right at the championship prematurely.
May 20th, 2010 at 3:27 am
And I don’t see what you’re seeing in Ibaka Jim Henderson. Sure he’s full of potential, but he was a rookie who was still very raw. Is it one of those ‘Ian Mahinmi is better than (put your preferred big man here)’ statement? Potentials are not always fulfilled and the guy has a lot to prove in the years to come.
May 20th, 2010 at 4:08 am
@Jim
I didn’t say OKC would be a dynasty for 10 years, I said contenders. They have some great young pieces, they’ll keep them. They are patient, YOU WILL SEE…
Tim would get interest if made available, but this point is also moot, b/c he won’t be discussed openly.
In general, I “get” what you are saying, I just don’t agree.
I don’t really believe in getting a head start on rebuilding, to me that’s a secondary goal. We’ll net the best players when the time comes, by going into full-tilt rebuilding mode (see: Seattle Super Sonics, Washington Wizards), barring a magical big score via trading to move up in the lottery or some other such Hail-Mary which works, which isn’t worth pondering
With some luck and some spending, things could work, but it’s a gamble. We need much much more than Harden (not likely to be an all-star, certianly not an MVP, also not available for what you’re suggesting) whether now or later. I’d gladly take him, but we need a lot more… these days, to win we need 6-7 guys of the caliber of our current big 3 is. MAYBE Harden (who isn’t available) is in that realm, maybe Splitter is, and maybe Hill improves, and Maybe TD and TP are healthy, and maybe you can trade RJ… that’s alot of maybes, but it says here that Harden and Hill are not at that level, and I’m not buying the “head start on rebuilding” strategy.
Sorry, I’d like to throw you a bone and agree with what you’re saying, but I can’t b/c I don’t.
For better or worse, the only thing we can do to encourage Mr. Holt & Co. to make some positive moves is give him our money for tickets, and show up and cheer.
May 20th, 2010 at 4:14 am
I can’t understand all the comments about Anthony Morrow. The Spurs cut him in 08(?). And the time spent in Golden State has now made him a free agent target? I’m not seeing that one.
May 20th, 2010 at 5:50 am
Jim,
I’ve been thinking about the OKC trade. I think if I were OKC, the numbe one piece I would be looking to trade is Jeff Green. They don’t have room for him at the 3 with Durant and he’s not great at the 4. They need front line size and depth so to my mind Jeff Green is the one number guy to move since he’s young and talented and so has decent value. The problem with trading Harden for Manu is that it really doesn’t address a need other than “veteran leadership”. Guard is a position of strength for them and is only gong to get better without doing a thing.
If I were them I’d move Green and look for someone to play alongside Ibaka and Collision. Ibaka’s going to be good, Collison is okay. If they got get another good big and have Krstic as a fourth with limited minutes they will have a good front court.
They’d have
PG - Westbrook, Mynor
SG - Harden, Thabo
SF - Durant, Thabo
PF/C - Ibaka, New Big, Collison, Krstic
Every player is above is at least average, most good to great. Except for Krstic. Also, I hear great things about New Big. I think this is his year.
If they can’t move Green for a big I’d look to move Harden for a big and McDyess wouldn’t cut it. He was okay this year, but at this point no one knows what you’re going to get from him next year. OKC can afford to wait for the right trade to address their team weaknesses.
May 20th, 2010 at 10:51 am
Oh..the spurs.what a Dilema?? I bet they regret not pulling the rumored trade at the deadline that involved sending RMJ+ Finley+Matt Bonner(all expiring contracts) to Chicage for Tyrus Thomas & John Salmons.
Imagine the line up:
Starters: TP, John Salmons, RJ, Tyrus Thomas & Duncan(Great defense & low post presense, lane penetration and & some shooting too).
Bench: Hill, Ginobili, Bogans, Blair & McDyess.
That would have been a great team(Top 1-2 defensively with basically all our current offensive options minus Bonner- which we would have replaced with John Salmon’s shooting). Imagine the Pick & roll defense TT would have had against Dirk, Amare and Pau Gasol..he is great defensively, agile and a good shot blocker esp from weak side and that is what we need.
The FO did not go for that trade as it would have added John Salmon’s 5.8 salary next year and TT is a restricted FA who would need around 6-7 million/year; but we could use our MLE to do that and wait another year for Tiago splitter to come in 2011 after Mcdyees is not on the payroll..in-fact Tiago may not come this year anyway.
Spurs advancing past PHX(with 2 home playoff games against the lakers would have re-coupped most of that 5.8 million next year anyway; and we could have even sent our 1st Rounder this year to some team like the GS warriors and get Anthony Morrow to bolster our 3P shooting.
I really wanted that trade done but obviously it is not my money we are taking about here although I really thought this plan would not have added much to our payroll if you sit down and count it..and it would have bolstered our chances tremendously.
Anyway, not many options now unless we can get another GM to take RJ’s contract off our hand for a couple of players.. maybe should try GS for Maggette, Anthony morrow & Radmanovic. GS maybe willing to give up Anthony morrow if we took 2 bad contracts off their hand(Magette & Radmanovic..latter contract is expiring just like RJ).. I would even include the 1st rounder if needed to get Anthony Morrow.
What you all think??
May 20th, 2010 at 10:59 am
Ian
May 20th, 2010 at 3:19 am
“He had plenty of picks to sell and some expiring contracts to trade before Feb. 2010 trade deadline, but didn’t make a single move even though it might have upgraded the OKC roster. Why then, all of a sudden, would he make a drastic change when he’s been so patient with his squad in the past?”
Making deals at the trading deadline occur for two principal reasons: (1) for “rebuilding” teams, acquiring a large expiring contract for the last two months of the season to create cap space for summer FA signings; and (2) for “mature” teams that have a closing window to acquire that missing link that would hopefully put them over the hump. It is a risky strategy in case number two, because it’s not really the best time to acquire news players, 2/3 through a season. Often you have chemistry issues that may actually delay the eventual growth of the “team”. Neither of these cases are meant for a YOUNG team that is building a base of young talent. However, in the OFF-SEASON, a team like OKC would be foolish to not seriously entertain picking up a guy like Manu Ginobli. OKC had just ONE expiring contract at last February’s trade deadline, Etan Thomas, which they didn’t move because the contract wasn’t big enough and NOBODY wanted him, certainly not for anything that was likely to help the Thunder. Also, acquiring Manu & McDyess would not be a drastic move. It’s two players out of 15 that are changing residences. It is NOT drastic. Manu & McDyess would fit very well on that team, I suspect very quickly, and would immediately make them a bonafide title contender. If you can’t see the logic in that, then please, scroll over my posts. You’re wasting my time with your stubborn nonsense.
“Why would OKC want Manu & McDyess (veterans past their prime) eating up valuable minutes that the young players could use to improve themselves?”
THEY HAVE TOO MANY YOUNG PLAYERS. Young players don’t always develop the best by simply playing. They need coaching, and they need to learn from brilliant, savvy veterans like Manu as they go along, rather than throwing ALL their young players into the fire at the same time. Don’t you get it?
“No, they will not win championship with their current squad this coming season, but Manu & McDyess certainly will not put them over the top either (OKC needs a low-post player, not a mid-range jump shooter like McDyess)….”
How can you say that Ginobli & McDyess would not help this team? And even as currently constructed, they took the Lakers to 6 grueling games. If you watched any of that series, one of the main reasons that they lost was a lack of veteran leadership on the court. And you can bet that Ibaka is working on his low post moves as we speak. And you can bet that one of their THREE top draft picks this year will be a low post player. McDyess gives them veteran defense in the low post, and Manu, well, if I have to tell you what he does for that team I’m wasting my time.
“And I don’t see what you’re seeing in Ibaka Jim Henderson.”
Another sign from you that I’m wasting my
time.
bduran
May 20th, 2010 at 5:50 am
Green has great potential. He still might very well make it as a four. He’s 6’9″, 235 at age 21, and can always work on adding a low-post game to his repertoire. That said, moving Green for a “big” is an option, but it would have to be the “right” big, which might not be easy. And believe me, they are going after “bigs” in the first round of this draft. I just think they need some veteran strength to get them to contend NOW. They can do that without sacrificing their future, because they have TOO MANY young guys with talent that are going to all demand more minutes. Unfortunately, there are not enough minutes to go around.
May 20th, 2010 at 11:58 am
bduran
May 20th, 2010 at 5:50 am
If I was OKC, I’d prefer to field this line-up next year:
PG – Westbrook, Maynor
SG – Ginobli, Thabo
SF – Durant, Thabo
PF/C – Ibaka, Green, Collison, McDyess
(+ three 1st round picks - a SG, SF, & PF)
That line-up gives them a much better shot at contending.
And here’s a guy that has some promise as a project on their roster, and could potentially make an impact on this team in the next couple of years:
http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/B.J.-Mullens-1107/
May 20th, 2010 at 12:09 pm
Jim,
That lineup is certainly better than current, but I would still prefer to shore up a weakness than improve a strength. The only guy on that list who is really good (or going to be at least) at the 4/5 is Ibaka. Collison is a solid contributor but no more, McDyess isn’t getting younger, and Green is out of position. Plus Jeff Green is a guy who going forward is going to demand more money then he’s worth, at least as long as the play him as PF. I think trading him is going to be a must. Eventually they won’t be able to afford all those young guys so they may as well get what they can for him.
As for Mullens, he’s young and does show some promise but is by no means a sure thing. Guy has a low rebounding rate for a 7 foot center. I think D.J. White is more promising, but still, neither guy is a guarantee. Improving the frontline is the biggest area of need for the Thunder.
May 20th, 2010 at 12:12 pm
@bduran
Agreed. Jeff Green ought to be a tweener backing up Durant. Maybe he’s starter at the 3, somewhere else. OKC is looking for a quality Big, if anything.
Anyone else is a more likely trading partner for the Spurs including Detroit whose owner is looking to sell the team… That, and the hope that we sign some expensive free agents despite the expense, is the only real shot at being contenders again in the forseeable future.
May 20th, 2010 at 1:35 pm
bduran
May 20th, 2010 at 12:09 pm
“As for Mullens, he’s young and does show some promise but is by no means a sure thing. Guy has a low rebounding rate for a 7 foot center. I think D.J. White is more promising, but still, neither guy is a guarantee. Improving the frontline is the biggest area of need for the Thunder.”
As I said, Mullens is a “project”, but he’s on the roster, and there’s no evidence that the Thunder is going to give up on him any time soon. He’s just another “front line big” that’s still in the wings. And as I said, Ibaka will be making a big step forward, at any time. Collison is a solid role/rotation player on the front line, with good size. McDyess gives them needed depth, post-up “D”, and veteran leadership on their front line. And Green is not out of position. How do you call 6’9″, 235 (could easily get to 250 lbs. in the next couple years), at age 21, out of position at the PF spot? The fact that he also has some small forward skills does not preclude him from being their starting PF of the future. And finally, as I said, they have 3 number one picks to work on getting another young power guy for depth at C/PF. Also, they do not have “great strength” at SG. Harden is still one dimensional, and too young for a team that is already TOO YOUNG, and Thabo is also more or less one dimensional. Manu, on the other hand, gives them everything that they’re desperately lacking at the SG: dribble drive penetration, play-making, steals, and last but not least, about the best veteran leadership that one could ask for on a team like OKC at this time.
td4life
May 20th, 2010 at 12:12 pm
“That, and the hope that we sign some expensive free agents despite the expense, is the only real shot at being contenders again in the forseeable future.”
Sorry, but we can’t realistically afford it. We cannot violate cap restrictions.
You guys just don’t want to trade Manu. Why don’t you all come clean? Really, there’s no realistic justification for your persistent and ardent defense of OKC’s interests as it pertains to this proposed deal.
May 20th, 2010 at 1:45 pm
A brief follow-up to this part of a previous post I made:
“If I was OKC, I’d prefer to field this line-up next year:
PG – Westbrook, Maynor
SG – Ginobli, Thabo
SF – Durant, Thabo
PF/C – Ibaka, Green, Collison, McDyess
(+ three 1st round picks – a SG, SF, & PF)”
Thus, the following would be my starting line-up:
PG - Westbrook
SG - Ginobli
SF - Durant
PF - Green
C - Ibaka
In the rotation, off the bench:
Thabo
Collison
McDyess
Maynor
That is a very tough team, with still some young draft picks that will be developing to fill in the gaps until McDyess & Manu leave. Also, McDyess and Manu are not going to be worried about “minutes” like young guys do. They’ll be happy to do whatever the coach wants to help develop their young guys, and WIN, NOW.
May 20th, 2010 at 2:05 pm
@ChrisG, I believe you’re thinking of Anthony Tolliver, who we signed for a few months before dumping. I don’t believe Anthony Morrow ever played for us, but I could be wrong.
May 20th, 2010 at 2:10 pm
@Jim Henderson - not to disagree with you on saying Jeff Green can further improve on his game in the years to come, but he’s 23 (NOT 21 - that’s KD), didn’t improve much (at least not as much as people expected him to) from his stellar performances in the 2008-2009 season, and he really is the odd one out: too good to just be Durant’s backup, but will likely be too expensive for a starting PF.
May 20th, 2010 at 2:13 pm
That is, expensive in contrast to his efficiency. He does seem a little out of position at the moment.
May 20th, 2010 at 2:15 pm
I was only pointing out that Mullens is away off and they need help now.
Harden offered average production this year, Thabo a little above average. So I’m saying it’s a strength because they will have two above average players at the position next year (I’m of course assuming Harden improves, like most rookies do). I’m not saying they’ll be leading the league in SG production, but having two above average players at a position means it’s a strength. If you don’t agree with this then why would you want to trade for Harden? On top of that they are strong at PG as well. In general they don’t need to improve at guard.
Green is not 21, he’s 23. This makes a big difference when it comes to development. He played 3 years in college and he’s completed 3 years in the NBA. I’m not saying that he can’t still improve, but the biggest jumps are most likely behind him.
Green does have the size to play PF, however it’s not the position that best fits his skills. For one thing he’s not a good rebounder. 6 boards a game in 37 min as a PF is terrible. That rebounding rate is much better at the SF position. His low post game isn’t that great either. I don’t think Green will ever be a star, but I do think he could offer good minutes at SF for someone. However, if he’s your starter at PF I consider that a position of weakness.
May 20th, 2010 at 2:20 pm
@Jim
I’d listen to offers for Manu, but I don’t see getting an all-star back… I don’t think we are ready to dump our best player to get a running start on a rebuild, as the article above articulated nicely.
It’s obvious to most of us that you are way off in your assessment of OKC’s plans…. they can add veteran leadership without giving up on Harden after one year; they just aren’t gonna be a trading partner for us. By the way, Jeff Green is the weak spot for them, he will never be so much as a Josh Smith, who while extraordinary would also be better sliding over for Horford and another true Big.
Your Harden scheme is not the answer for the Spurs, it just isn’t. I appreciate your thoughts on the matter, but you’re beating a dead horse. And embrace the fact that once we no longer make the playoffs with Tim Duncan, then we get young franchise players; we won’t be trading for them in the meantime. If anything, expect us to get pieces away from failing clubs, not from the likes of OKC.
May 20th, 2010 at 2:22 pm
There are some that just don’t want to trade Manu Ginobili, but this is just a horrible deal. For the short term you downgrade your talent from Manu to Harden and do not significantly step forward with Kristic or Collison. In the long term, there’s no guarantee that Harden approaches what Ginobili can peak at over the next two seasons (at his best this season he was an All-NBA guard). Harden is not a Durant/Kobe/LeBron type player. You need those guys to win.
And the assessment I made of Harden is not my own, it was and remains the assessment from scouts across the league.
May 20th, 2010 at 5:06 pm
Just noticed that some slack used my moniker to post first on this blog. Didn’t realize it was that catchy?
May 20th, 2010 at 5:35 pm
Nice article from Ken Rodriguez http://www.nba.com/spurs/features/100519_rodriguez.html?rss=true
May 20th, 2010 at 5:40 pm
@Duaneofly
“I believe you’re thinking of Anthony Tolliver”
I am. My bad. Thank you kindly.
May 20th, 2010 at 6:57 pm
bduran
May 20th, 2010 at 2:15 pm
“Harden offered average production this year, Thabo a little above average. So I’m saying it’s a strength because they will have two above average players at the position next year.”
I’m just saying that as of right now, the SG position is not the strongest part of their team. It’s pretty decent, has potential, but it would be stronger for at least the next couple of years with Manu there. Of course, with Manu, with his experience, he’s already developed a FULL game, and that would help OKC (plus all the intangibles he brings to the table for a “young” team). Obtaining Manu would clearly be an upgrade for them for next season.
“In general they don’t need to improve at guard.”
It may not be their weakest area, but they would clearly benefit with an upgrade at the SG position. And Manu, would clearly provide that.
“If you don’t agree with this then why would you want to trade for Harden?”
It’s a better fit for BOTH teams! We need youth, they need a well-rounded veteran for leadership, and to take some of the scoring “pressure” off Durant, particularly in clutch situations, so that he can better focus on improving the rest of his game.
“Green is not 21, he’s 23.”
I stand corrected.
“I’m not saying that he can’t still improve, but the biggest jumps are most likely behind him.”
Well, as you say, 23 is not too old to still improve, and what do you want out of him, he’s already averaging about 16 ppg. & 6 rpg? Do you want Durant to average 30, AND still have a couple of other players on the team average close to 20? I suppose he and Westbrook could get to 18 ppg., but is that really a big deal when you have the league-leading scorer?
“Green does have the size to play PF, however it’s not the position that best fits his skills. For one thing he’s not a good rebounder. 6 boards a game in 37 min as a PF is terrible. That rebounding rate is much better at the SF position. His low post game isn’t that great either. I don’t think Green will ever be a star, but I do think he could offer good minutes at SF for someone. However, if he’s your starter at PF I consider that a position of weakness.”
What do you consider a “star”? They have to meet a certain production threshold? How many “stars” do you need to have on a team to win a title? Could he not be a very valuable starter on the team without being a “star”? I agree he needs to get his rebounding up a bit (need to get it up close to 8, he was a 6.7 the year before last - he can get there), but he’s more in the mold of Aldridge of Portland (8 rpg.), only more athletic, and more range on his shot. He needs to just put on a little weight, and develop some more scoring moves in the paint, to achieve more balance with his long-range game. And remember, the Thunder are a different team than most teams. They have great athletes at several positions, and in fact have the highest rebound average in the league at the SF, SG, PG positions combined. Thus, based on how this team is constructed, Green does not have to be a “great” rebounder at the PF spot for OKC to be successful.
td4life
May 20th, 2010 at 2:20 pm
“I don’t think we are ready to dump our best player….”
He’s our best player for maybe two more years.
“I don’t think we are ready to dump our best player to get a running start on a rebuild, as the article above articulated nicely.”
Well, if were not, were very likely to be in trouble before very long. We won’t see a title for years.
“It’s obvious to most of us that you are way off in your assessment of OKC’s plans…. they can add veteran leadership without giving up on Harden after one year; they just aren’t gonna be a trading partner for us. By the way, Jeff Green is the weak spot for them….”
Look, first off, no one has a crystal ball for what OKC’s “plans” are. You don’t, I don’t, and nobody on this blog does. I believe that I’ve described a compelling case for the reasons why a Spur/OKC deal is a good fit. You, and some others on here disagree. That does NOT mean that you’re right about it. And by the way, Jeff Green is not a weakness on that team. If you’re comparing him to the young phenom, Durant, or the point of the future Westbrook, you’re not being rational. Green brings a VERY athletic “big” to allow the Thunder to accentuate “athleticism” pretty much throughout their roster. With such athleticism, if they can become great “players” as well, with all the intangibles that this entails (and as a special, veteran player, that’s where Manu comes in, big time), they could become a monster to defeat over the next few years. We have to do our best to counter them (along with LA & Portland), by getting younger, bigger, and more athletic.
“Your Harden scheme is not the answer for the Spurs, it just isn’t. I appreciate your thoughts on the matter, but you’re beating a dead horse. And embrace the fact that once we no longer make the playoffs with Tim Duncan, then we get young franchise players; we won’t be trading for them in the meantime. If anything, expect us to get pieces away from failing clubs, not from the likes of OKC.”
I appreciate your candor, but your description above is a recipe for a “title-less” decade already built into the cake. It is very rare that teams buy championships quickly through the FA market, and when they do, they are usually one-and-done type of affairs. This idea of, “just let the ship sink”, and then simply buy a new one, before we drown, is not smart management for a franchise.
Jesse Blanchard
May 20th, 2010 at 2:22 pm
We’ll just have to agree to disagree.
“And the assessment I made of Harden is not my own, it was and remains the assessment from scouts across the league.”
If you have it, I would like to see any links you might have of these “assessments from scouts across the league”. Thanks.
May 21st, 2010 at 3:51 am
Comparing Harden to Brandon Roy? Seriously? Some of you guys need to start staying up later to watch a few West Coast games…
I still think, btw, that this is an unusually deep draft and the Spurs have a good chance at getting a couple of players out of it. If Splitter works out and we get some quality depth from the draft… it could be an interesting year.
May 21st, 2010 at 10:14 am
when did this become a OKC fanblog?
jim, i like that you try reason, but your trade still doesn’t carry it through. unlike some of the rest of these guys, i have no doubt presti would wet himself in joy over pulling the trigger on that deal, but i agree with jesse in that you sacrifice any shot at a title for OUR team over the next 2 years, which if i’m not mistaken is duncan’s, and hence our window. i also don’t see how that shores up our biggest shortcoming this year, lockdown defense.
harden is not roy. he is not 50% of manu. even at his peak, he will not likely reach what manu is capable of the next 2 years, even at 30 mins a game. manu’s a proven champion and finisher, not terribly removed from his prime. you don’t give even the final 2 years of that up for the likes of harden. i’ve never seen a fan overvalue another team’s players so much more than his/her own. i wouldn’t rule out trading manu, but not for that deal.
and krstic? seriously?
you’re working under the assumption that we have no shot, and would with harden, maybe in 4-5 years? i think that our chances in the next 3 with our 3 are the best shot we’re going to have, trade or no, and then as a fan i’m happy letting them ride off into the sunset and starting from scratch. it’s part of being a fan for me; sticking through thick and thin. yeah, neither of us have crystal balls, but from everything i’ve read and seen, odds are against a harden trade being the savior of our championship hopes. if i were an OKC fan (which i kinda am too, love durant, but spurs first) i would lobby for your trade all day long. just can’t abide it as a spurs fan though.
May 21st, 2010 at 12:49 pm
Tim in Surrey
May 21st, 2010 at 3:51 am
“Comparing Harden to Brandon Roy? Seriously?”
Tim, I hate to tell you, but, Roy was going to keg parties at the University of Washington at the same age that Harden was lighting up the defending champion Lakers with a .585 TS% in round one of THE NBA PLAYOFFS. So, I wouldn’t be so smug and condescending in your reference to Harden. Of course he’s not the player that Roy is NOW! But he has a good shot of getting a hell of a lot closer to Roy in the next few years, and Roy, of course, is currently one of the top 5-6 SG’s in the entire league.
andy
May 21st, 2010 at 10:14 am
“……you sacrifice any shot at a title for OUR team over the next 2 years, which if i’m not mistaken is duncan’s, and hence our window. i also don’t see how that shores up our biggest shortcoming this year, lockdown defense.”
Look, we’re not going to WIN A TITLE IN THE NEXT TWO YEARS WITH THE BIG THREE intact. Duncan’s “window”, as more of a complimentary player (similar to the admiral), could easily be extended out to 4 years, if we find him some young, competent big man help, NOW! Thus, if we begin now to build around him with “more size” and “talented youth”, we can work our way back to a title chance within 3-4 years. The Harden deal represents just an opening salvo in this direction. Otherwise, keeping Manu consigns our team to at least a 6-10 year stretch with NO titles. I don’t know how many times I have to repeat this, but: barring some very unusual bit of good fortune (think Gasol to the Lakers), WE ARE NOT GOING TO WIN A TITLE AGAIN WITH THE BIG THREE. IT’S OVER. Lets begin to come to terms with that, SOON.
We do need to push in other areas, as you mention (defense, three-point shooter), and can do this as best we can through all other avenues available to us: MLE, bi-annual exception, FA signings with limited $, and other less major trades, like RJ’s expiring contract at some point, for example.
“harden is not roy. he is not 50% of manu. even at his peak, he will not likely reach what manu is capable of the next 2 years, even at 30 mins a game. manu’s a proven champion and finisher, not terribly removed from his prime. you don’t give even the final 2 years of that up for the likes of harden. i’ve never seen a fan overvalue another team’s players so much more than his/her own. i wouldn’t rule out trading manu, but not for that deal.”
First of all, this is a ridiculous statement:
“harden ……. he is not 50% of manu….”.
Second, Manu has TWO to THREE good/decent years left in him! Don’t you understand that? That’s like saying, I’ll take that classic bmw over a brand new mustang, even though I’m required to give up the bmw in three years, unless it breaks down first. YOU’RE COMPLETELY overvaluing the BMW! WE need more mustangs on this team to increase our horsepower, and WE need to trade in our classic bmw’s to a team that needs them to hasten & steady their opportunity for a ride to the top.
“if i were an OKC fan (which i kinda am too, love durant, but spurs first) i would lobby for your trade all day long. just can’t abide it as a spurs fan though.”
Then why don’t you address several of the other Spurs fans on this blog that try to argue that the deal is NOT good for OKC? Look on the two recent threads that have 250+ comments, and 150+ comments (this one), and address the guys that say the deal is bad for OKC. Here’s just a sampling of their screen names: bduran, Ian, td4life, etc. Go tell them why the deal is in OKC’s favor, and then maybe we can have some sanity: that the deal is actually good for BOTH TEAMS!
I’m done responding to lame reasons as to why the OKC deal that I proposed is not a legitimate trade to consider. Anyone that criticizes this deal after this point, and wants it to be meaningful, needs to read all my posts on the two threads mentioned above, because all of the relevant complaints I’ve thus far received about the deal have been effectively neutered in these posts. If anyone has a “NEW” complaint about the deal, I’ll be glad to respond accordingly. If not, welcome to the echo chamber.
May 21st, 2010 at 1:24 pm
Andy,
the deal with Jim Henderson is that he thinks
1) Our window with the Big 3 is a lost-cause-hopeless-no-chance-no-way
2) If we start tinkering now, we can be in a better position to win in the future with Parker and/or some young assets.
3) If we don’t do anything, after our current playoff streak ends, we will be horrible for 10 years.
However… NO team ever goes from one championship era to another without a full-scale rebuild in between… We are not gonna put together a second championship era without elite MVP caliber players and at least one trip to the lottery. Everybody not named Jim Henderson understands that. We also understand that our best chance to win another trophy is by seeing the current window through. Two more years, no more than four. Yes, it is a long shot, but Tim is still well above average for a big man (and needs some legitimate help(!!!) at least as much as he had in years past, God knows), Tony is useful as a scorer or trading asset, and Manu is an MVP caliber player on a per-minute basis…. we ain’t gonna do much better, James Harden isn’t gonna be a savior during this window, and is not likely to carry a team to the promised land thereafter. For these reasons, getting younger is highly desirable, but not absolutely vital during our window. If the FO can pull off a hat trick involving trading Manu, I guess I’ll roll with it, though it is hard to imagine who that could possibly be; I don’t think even Joe Johnson qualifies, the guy has GOT to be CLUTCH.
You only need one true lottery stud to turn things around when the time comes, and the Spurs might be able to bounce back quickly with the cap space and some luck. But championship eras are exceedingly rare.
Yes, we are a very long shot with the guys we have, but we are an EXTREMELY long shot without them or once they are gone, especially without some special bigs. Most of us are willing to ride out this window because it’s the right move. If Tiago pans out… and remember he might well be ready to go, nice and polished, the kind of rookie that makes an instant difference, a big who starts. Scola and Ginobili were capable from the get go, and with his experience Splitter isn’t a typical rookie big man, this guy might be all-defensive team right from the start, wouldn’t that be nice?!.. and we add a piece, swap a piece, who knows. Maybe a Paul George is scooped up in the draft and ends up playing well in big minutes, the steal of the draft. Okay, now I’m dreaming I admit. But I also don’t hate the idea of Anthony Morrow + Maggette (unlike RJ he’s very agressive and even on a bad night gets to the line at will. I’ve seen him contain Kobe on defense, once while taking the Lakers to double overtime, despite always having been with top-down bad franchises). The point is, there are lot of get-able guys that can improve this team. As everyone know, Tiago is probably the key… otherwise what are you gonna do? Jump through hoops to land Tyrus Thomas + Jermaine O’Neal? Or Both big O’Neals??? Come on over Tiago!
May 21st, 2010 at 1:41 pm
@Jim Henderson, save your breath arguing my last post… I am sure we both agree that Tiago Splitter coming over and running away with a spot on the all-rookie team is what we need to be rooting for, with that, we’ll be in decent positioning going forward with or without James Harden. I’m sure the FO is exploring all options and everybody is on the table.
May 21st, 2010 at 1:55 pm
@td4life
Well said.
Adding to your comments: do you remember what the Lakers team of the late ’80′s looked like? There are some similarities to contrast with this Spurs bunch.
Add in a steely run Lakers orginization which had not only the foresight, but balls to draft Kobe and one might calibrate that anything is possible going forth.
May 21st, 2010 at 2:27 pm
td4life
May 21st, 2010 at 1:24 pm
Nothing NEW. Nothing ENLIGHTENING. A well-articulated, WRONG STRATEGY, espoused by those that think that after riding off into the sunset, with the stars of yesteryear on board a sinking ship, we will easily grab onto a new star in the midst of drowning, to right our ship quickly onto a new path of glory. NOT gonna happen. We will wake up in 2020, and they’ll still be 4 banners waving at the AT&T Center. No further comment is necessary.
May 21st, 2010 at 2:59 pm
Remember when everyone on here, but myself, thought that McDyess would help and even make us contenders.
Listening to a majority on makes me wonder how they even can type words
May 21st, 2010 at 3:17 pm
JH,
Your strategy doesn’t equate to any more banners in the rafters either, my friend. I like that you THINK it’ll be so easy to build a dynasty between now and 2020 if we’d just wise up and trade Manu Ginobili. Great, go ahead, call up Sam Presti and see if you can wrangle away a future league MVP for the Spurs, oh not that one, the other one, no the other other one. You have my blessing, it’s gonna suck watching Manu on a better team, torch the Spurs in the playoffs though.
Rest assured, Pop and RC will consider moving ANYBODY this summer that helps us upgrade, they just don’t talk about it in the media, b/c it’s bad form, and poor bargaining.
What we need now are skilled, defensive bigs.
May 21st, 2010 at 3:25 pm
TradeTP,
I haven’t agreed with everything you’ve written, but I have always asked for a more dimensional PG, and hated last summers moves from the start, when I was hoping to see us trade for Camby, and try to sign Lamar Odom even though he takes a few too many nights off. Still wish we had.
May 21st, 2010 at 3:29 pm
td4life
May 21st, 2010 at 3:17 pm
“Your strategy doesn’t equate to any more banners in the rafters either, my friend.”
It does not even come close to assuring anything, but what it does do is keep alive the opportunity for future titles this decade, if the same approach is continued over the next few years. The other approach is a veritable dead end, with LONG term ramifications.
“…call up Sam Presti and see if you can wrangle away a future league MVP for the Spurs….”
I think you’re overstating Harden’s future value. Just a tad!
“What we need now are skilled, defensive bigs.”
And a more quality-packed, younger team!
May 21st, 2010 at 3:58 pm
The conversation will forever just go in circles, so it can probably be ended with an agreement to disagree and the acknowledgment that it’s an irrelevant trade proposal because it’s a 99.9999…..% certainty that the Spurs are never going to make such a deal anyways.
Heads up, read Tim’s draft coverage, he’s in Chicago. The Spurs have talked to a projected top five pick, so there’s at least a little bit to dream about.
May 21st, 2010 at 6:25 pm
Jesse Blanchard
May 21st, 2010 at 3:58 pm
“The conversation will forever just go in circles, so it can probably be ended with an agreement to disagree and the acknowledgment that it’s an irrelevant trade proposal because it’s a 99.9999…..% certainty that the Spurs are never going to make such a deal anyways.”
Well, you, and perhaps some other deluded souls on this blog, may think that there’s a 99.9999…..% certainty a deal with OKC will not emerge, but I happen to have more faith in the FO to make the tough decisions when they’re needed the most. They may very well not pull off a deal with OKC (unfortunately, probably a 90% chance they don’t, for some reason or another), but in my view they’re making a big mistake if they’re not even open to such an approach, if it’s financially and contractually feasible.
“Heads up, ………. Spurs have talked to a projected top five pick, so there’s at least a little bit to dream about.”
Yeah, that’s what we do best on here: DREAM.
May 22nd, 2010 at 2:08 am
I think one thing that should be pointed out is how many teams have won championships? In my memory starting from the 90s: Pistons, Bulls, Rockets, Spurs, Lakers, Celtics, Heat. So in the past two decades only seven out of thirty teams have won a title. The Spurs and Lakers themselves have 4 of those titles, Jordan’s Bulls have six.
My point being, there are a lot of crappy general managers / team presidents out there. Hell, I admit that some fans I see writing on blogs, and maybe a few who post, may actually be able to do a better job than some of the more awful GMs who seem to only to get jobs because it’s a “boys league” you know?
I’m sorry, but the chances that anyone posting, or even writing, on this site know more about basketball, coaching, scouting, etc etc than RC, Pop, and whomever else runs the Spurs is SLIM to NONE.
As Jesse has pointed out already in this thread, I believe, the Lakers bottomed out, so did the Jazz, and the Celtics. The Pistons made at least the ECF for quite a few years in a row, but they’ve bottomed out now. However, the Spurs (And Mavs) are right there in the playoffs each and every year, and we’ve won 4 titles doing it. Being that good for that long is really unheard of.
But now we’ve had two early exit years and now people are bitching, complaining, and saying all we can do is dream unless RC/Pop get their heads out of their asses, read 48minutesofhell, and do whatever we’re telling them to do? Oh please, give it a break.
Trade/Offseason speculating is a lot of fun, but dissing the Spurs organization etc etc is ignorant, because hey, we could have Isiah Thomas running the team. Or Chris Wallace. Or Kevin Mchale. Or Michael Jordan.
May 22nd, 2010 at 6:23 am
@Duaneofly
@Jesse
Here, here. Well said.
May 22nd, 2010 at 6:45 am
duane- I think your statement about knowing more than Pop/RC is ignorant to say the least.
We have watched both utterly fail in acquisitions and succeed. WE have watched both ride Tim to success and now struggle to find anything that resembles championship basketball. From blowing 4th qtr leads to picking up washed up players to not developing youth.
Coaching is EXTREMELY OVERRATED in the NBA. Look at Mike Brown (one of POPs boys) he went from dumbest coach in the league, to the best as Lebron learned, then back to the worst.
Coaching is all about being a member of the boys club. Pop and RC failed miserably this past year. A great coach doesnt win with a loaded team (like we should have this year and failed) but a great coach finds ways to motivate, inspire, and get the most out of his team (which POP hasnt done).
To say that POP and RC know more than anyone/everyone out there underlines your ignorance. And until POP can coach a team to above its attainable goals he will always be a lucky coach who fired the previous coach at EXACTLY THE RIGHT TIME.
May 22nd, 2010 at 9:37 am
In addition its why we underacheive now. Pop cannot grasp the idea of matchups and gameplans without revolving around TD. Its evident to anyone who understands the game of basketball that Tim cannot DOMINATE both ends of the floor. He has enough of a hard time trying to be consistent on ONE end of the floor.
Im not saying Tim is a bad ball player, we just cannot expect for him to bail us out as done in ring years.
If we couldnt see his flaws with simple things as close out and contest a jumper I dont know what to tell you.
Refusing to play Tim with Dejuan…. I dont know what to tell you.
Refusing to give athleticism a shot when experience obviously cant cut it… I dont know what to tell you.
You can say all you want about pop and rc knowing this, that or the other. But what we have seen this year especially, and the past few years, is that ANYONE could step into the coach’s role and lead us to a crappy playoff finish.
If you (duane) or anyone else cannot see that, then you really arent looking at ways to improve the team. You’re simply fans of the coach or the FO and not winning.
May 22nd, 2010 at 10:05 am
of course we don’t know what deals the guys try to make which don’t pan out… after a few disappointments in a row, they didn’t settle and gambled on a bad trade and mediocre acquisition, in retrospect we might have fared better during the regular season with Bowen and say-it-ain’t-so-Finley, but we had a good showing in the first round, and injuries hampered us a bit. Getting over on this Mavericks team has to be called improvement… SA gets spurned by players year in and year out, largely because of the city itself. Recently spurned by Maggette and Marion, who knows what actually great deals got shot down for a big man, point guard, wing (deals vastly preferable to RJ, McD)… would players come to South Tx if we had the-joke-that-is-D’Antoni running things? Maybe, but our shot at trophys would be nil. Either way, guys like Chris Bosh, as an example, are asking to land with the friggin’ Knicks. Coaching is part of our success and part of our failure, we could do a lot worse with say Don Nelson, or countless others. Coaches only win with superior talent. When it’s not there they get fired for being bad coaches a’la Lawrence Frank. On the plus side we have overachieved in the draft with Hill, Parker, Manu, even DB and made many regrettable mistakes (as all the best squads have). And they’ve had the priceless good sense to create a defense first culture — the majority of clubs would not have gotten 4 rings with Tim Duncan in SA, and manage to be profitable at the same time. More recently, Trade Tp, while I don’t dispute many of your criticisms regarding Pop’s flaws and choices, I think he realizes he has to experiment b/c we face long odds.
We simply haven’t had the resources to buy a championship squad like the-opportunist-Phil Jackson’s Lakers (meanwhile Jerry West didn’t exactly triumph in Memphis), the Celtics, or the one hit wonder Miami heat…. all of which are also more glamorous markets.
May 22nd, 2010 at 11:07 am
duaneofly
May 22nd, 2010 at 2:08 am
“I’m sorry, but the chances that anyone posting, or even writing, on this site know more about basketball, coaching, scouting, etc etc than RC, Pop, and whomever else runs the Spurs is SLIM to NONE.”
Anyone that would disagree with that point is a fool. That said, great GM’s/coaches are human; they do make mistakes sometimes in the heat of making big decisions. There’s nothing wrong, at times, with speculating about their decision-making. Even so, I’m very happy with the Spurs coach & FO. They’ve done a fabulous job over the years. No question
May 22nd, 2010 at 2:27 pm
mike
May 20th, 2010 at 10:51 am
“Oh..the spurs.what a dilemma?? I bet they regret not pulling the rumored trade at the deadline that involved sending RMJ+ Finley+Matt Bonner(all expiring contracts) to Chicage for Tyrus Thomas & John Salmons.”
Yeah, that might of worked, and helped us, assuming we felt we could resign them at the end of the year. I assume the FO considered it. We might have had to throw Bogan’s small contract into the deal (no big loss - would have freed up time for Hairston). But it seems like as reasonable a proposition as what the Bulls did with the Bucks & Bobcats (although maybe they thought Warrick & Murray were resignable, and worth a look?).
And yeah, Golden State is a team worth looking at for a trade or FA signing. Obviously Morrow is an excellent three-point shooter, and we need that of, course. I’m not sure how many “bad” contracts we could absorb, but it’s all worth a look. They do have some talent over there.
Trade Tp
May 22nd, 2010 at 9:37 am
“Im not saying Tim is a bad ball player, we just cannot expect for him to bail us out as done in ring years.”
That is true.
“Refusing to play Tim with Dejuan…. I dont know what to tell you.”
That is a problem that should have been addressed during the season, in my view. Just because Blair does not yet have a dependable mid-range jumper is no excuse, in my mind, to NEVER play he and TD together. They could have done something, like each switching off and on the low block. TD definitely could have come off the low block more, because he can hit the 15-18 footers. The fact is, you’re getting more scoring & rebounding with those two in the game at the same time. You might not be quite as good defensively, but that would not outweigh the offensive advantages, for certain stretches of the game.
td4life
May 22nd, 2010 at 10:05 am
“Getting over on this Mavericks team has to be called improvement….”
Actually, that was more a function of the Mavs not having sufficient time to fully assimilate their “key” new players that they acquired at the trade deadline, Haywood & Butler, than that the Spurs were so great (plus, we played better in the first round because our “old” team wasn’t as tired as in round two). You could see that their chemistry just wasn’t yet strong enough to compete at their potential in the playoffs. Plus, their coach didn’t have enough faith in sticking with his main guys (sitting Butler/Marion for most of 2nd half in key game), not starting Haywood, and not trusting the young guy, Beaubois.
“On the plus side we have overachieved in the draft with Hill, Parker, Manu, even DB and made many regrettable mistakes (as all the best squads have). And they’ve had the priceless good sense to create a defense first culture — the majority of clubs would not have gotten 4 rings with Tim Duncan in SA, and manage to be profitable at the same time.”
I agree.
“….Trade Tp, while I don’t dispute many of your criticisms regarding Pop’s flaws and choices, I think he realizes he has to experiment b/c we face long odds.”
I think, and hope, you’re right.
May 22nd, 2010 at 5:14 pm
I think he realizes he has to experiment b/c we face long odds
Didnt he do that for the past X years with Bonner? Mason? McDyess…etc. His experimentations dont make sense.
The logical experiment should have been Blair and Duncan together so that we could package McDyess and know just how good or what type of Big man we need.
Pop is a dolt, he has had Gooden, who never played alot with Tim, Ian, and the list goes on….
May 22nd, 2010 at 10:13 pm
@Jim
What about that Green Brick Wall destroying these overrated teams???
@Jesse
you never mention Nando de Colo!! He can also contribute directly, he is a shooter and doesnt need development!!
Rondo= TP
Perkins = (Blair)
Spurs school of basket is there, everythig we couldnt do , the green wall brick with Doc Rivers ARE MAKING!!
POP open up your mind and learn, even old monkeys can learn sth out there, its called understanding,knowledge and Wisdom.
Bless you all,specially the GREEN WALL BRICK!!
May 22nd, 2010 at 11:22 pm
SPURSGERMANY
May 22nd, 2010 at 10:13 pm
“@Jim
What about that Green Brick Wall destroying these overrated teams???”
Boston’s doing a nice job, but Cleveland & Orlando have been poorly coached, and the players for each of these teams are obviously big “choke artists”. It’s actually really pathetic to watch. Hopefully the finals will present a good series, where BOTH teams are playing up to their potential.
“Rondo= TP
Perkins = (Blair)”
Each of these players in these pairings have substantially “different” games. And Boston is favored in these match-ups at present.
May 24th, 2010 at 9:41 am
Parker shouldnt even be compared to Rondo. Rondo is the better player EASILY
May 30th, 2010 at 12:30 pm
I need to say a couple of things. R.C Buford tried to win this year by bringing in McDyees, Ratliff, and Jefferson. Obviously that didn’t work out , but at least our G.M. is trying to win again now in the Duncan era because he know’s Timmy only has a couple of years left. As far as Jefferson goes originally we wanted Artest but he passed on Sanantonio to go to the Fakers. Now did anyone watch Artest’s performance last nite, that’s why the Spurs wanted him.
As far as Jefferson goes I think the guy is a real loser. Not only can he not make his own shots, he missed wide open jump shots and dunks in the Semi-Finals. This guy is steaming hot garbage. A slasher my foot. Jefferson was only as good as his point guard Jason Kidd was. Also Jefferson was always the best player on crappy teams, Nets, Bucks. But for a grown man to be in the NBA and not have a jump shot that is mind boggling????? And not only does he not have a jump shot, he’s totally lost all his confidence, and never wants to shoot the ball, inconsistent, I could go on for days.
Obviously the Spurs need defense, 3 point shooters, big men, and guys that can make freethrows.
The Spurs Dynasty had a geat run. 4 NBA championships & 6 Western Conference Finals (7 if u count the Rockets and hack ‘ em Olijawon in 97-98). Also 2 heart breaking losses that could’ve should’ve and would’ve resulted in back to back championships in 04 & 06 with Fishers lucky horse shot buzzer beater (0.4) in 04 and Ginobli’s horrible foul in 06 (Sorry Ginobli ur my boy but that was a horrible foul, but hey at least you play hard defense everyplay.) Now if u count those 2 for lost championships that would be 6 championships and 9 conference finals in what 10 years. Not too many teams besides the untouchable Bulls, Celtics, and Fakers (by the way Kobe walks more than a marathon runner but never gets called for it, another subject.) The Spurs should be very proud of their many accomplishments. But I will say blowing a 20 point lead in game 2 of the 08 conference finals and a 16 point lead in game 5 still makes me pissed as hell.
So now as Spurs fans I definetly think it’s time to get younger, look toward the future on rebuilding the team and face the facts that Timmy has 2-3 years left, tops. Also Pop said that when Timmy goes he goes. So to all u Pop haters out there u will be happy.
So lets go for it these last few years with Timmy. If we can’t get Splitter we need another big man. Blair is too undersized at 6’8 even though I heard Reggie call him 6’7. We need some real 3 point shooters and defenders. Get rid of RJ, Bonner, Bogans, and Mason J.R. Let’s rebuild for now and the future.
ALso to get to the Finals in the West you have to go through L.A. the last 2-3 years. You see Phoenix wasn’t good enough to beat L.A. so what makes you think we (Sanantonio) are good enough to beat L.A. Hopefully we will there next year or the following years. BEAT L.A BEAT L.A.
L.A. I WANT REVENGE FOR 2000, 2001, 2004, 2008. WE (I) WILL GET IT EVENTUALLY. MAYBE SPLITTER IS THE ANSWER. BRING BACK THE TWIN TOWERS AND THAT LOCKDOWN DEFENSE, 3 POINT SHOOTERS TO SPREAD THE FLOOR. EXECUTION, FUNDAMENTALS, FREETHROW SHOOTING, SHOT SELECTION, PRIDE, LEADERSHIP TOUGHNESS (ALL FROM MARIO ELIIE) ALL TRATES OF SANANTONIOBASKETBALL.
THE SUN WILL RISE AGAIN OVER THE ALAMODOME.
SPURS FAN SINCE 89
P.S. BEAT L.A BOSTON. NOT ONLY BEAT L.A. HUMILIATE THEM, NO MERCY.
May 30th, 2010 at 12:46 pm
By the way isn’t CP-3 a fee agent at the end of this year also. TP, JEFFERSON, and whoever else for Paul. Even if he isn’t a free agent New Orleans can’t afford to pay him anyways. Buford said he would trade Parker if a no brainer came up, that is definelty without a doubt a no brainer. I think u give Parker to the ALL Star break to prove himself. Is this the same Parker who put up 55 on the T- Wolves in Minnesota nad 45 on Dallas in the playoffs? If this isn’t the same parker as 2 years ago, and he did loose at least a step or 2 heis useless. That’s what made him so dangerous his explosivenss. Do you remeber L.J. with the Chiefs after they overused him year after year. He was slow and not a threat anymore. Once you loose your explosiveness, unless you do roiids like Clemens and bonds, or unless your a great shooter (which T.P. isn’t) then your useless. Even if Charles Barkley thinks Hill isn’t a real point guard that man can shoot now. He has a 3 and can play defense and I think he is better than just a role player in my opinion. T.P has alot of miles on those young 28 year old legs from playing with France in the offseason everyear, same for Ginobli for Argemntina.
I say bottom line, no matter how u slice it, this is Parker’s team now. Pop gave him the keys back in 07. I say to give the guy the benefit of the doubt, just like the sox gave Ortiz the last 2 years, I say u give this 3 time champion, Finals MVP another chance to the ALL Star Break. If he can’t prove himself, is still slow and has no explosivenss I say u trade him because we will have no use for the guy. All he will have left is his jump shot. He is not a good jump shooter. Sorry we can’t waste another full year with a stagnant T.P. U have till the All Star Break to prove your self.
Spurs Fan Since 89
May 30th, 2010 at 1:31 pm
Even though Blair is notorious for bad fouls he is a beast. Shame on Pop for not developing him this year and then expecting him to show up big in the playoffs for extra help. Blair is a pure scorer that can score by himslef 22-20. that one game. Same thing happened in 09 with Hill.
Leave a Reply