Friday, July 31st, 2009...4:45 am
A Night of Ugh
Lamar Odom has resigned with the Lakers. This solidifies the Lakers as prohibitive favorites to win the title. But I’m not worried. The Spurs have a realistic shot at reclaiming the crown. They’ll have to fire on all cylinders and catch a couple breaks, though. Odom is a difficult match up for the Spurs.
But hear this: don’t sweat it. The Spurs are pretty damn smart at what they do; from where I sit, they’ve already got this covered. If the sick with talent Lakers prove one player too much for the Spurs, San Antonio can piece together a nice package of expiring contracts in January or February in return for an impact player on a salary dump. Matt Bonner, Mike Finley, and Roger Mason Jr. can put the Spurs within striking distance of 10-12 million dollar player. The contracts of Malik Hairston, Marcus Williams, Marcus Haislip and Theo Ratliff are all movable as well. In addition to their expirings, they could sweeten any potential deal with draft picks and/or the rights to Tiago Splitter. San Antonio has held a trump card back in the form of expiring contracts.
As we move into the season, remember that the Spurs have left themselves some wiggle room to gear up for the Lakers.
Elsewhere, Tony Parker’s recently injured ankle is enough of a concern to the Spurs that they’ve brought him back to San Antonio for tests. Parker and the French press are playing the injury off as minor, and painting a picture of an unnecessarily cautious Spurs front office. But can you blame the front office for erring on the side of caution? Last season ended before it began when Manu Ginobili injured his ankle during international play.
If Parker’s injury is even remotely serious, he needs to shut himself down. I don’t begrudge guys for playing for their countries. In fact, I love Parker’s leadership as it relates to his national team and aspirations with ASVEL. In a vacuum I not only want Parker to play for his national team, I’ll promise to cheer for him all along the way. Ultimately, such commitments are good for the player and good for basketball. But at some point his debt to country must be counter balanced against an obligation to his employer and, more importantly, teammates. Or, to his teammates and, more importantly, employer. It’s a fine line that divides one form of loyalty from another. I’d say more, but I’m all awash in ambivalence. And I’m more than a little anxious to hear about the test results.
If you’re like me, then your feelings about San Antonio players playing in international competition race around like the hormones of a pubescent teen. My guess is that Peter Holt would like to pay tax bills while watching Tony Parker make baskets rather than watching him make eyes at Eva from a seat behind the bench. But it’s difficult for me to fully appreciate the value that playing for one’s country has to internationals. American fans have a difficult time wrapping their mind around the fact that international players value gold medals more than gold trophies.
A thread over at SpursTalk touches on this. If you make your way over, notice the difference of opinion between American and French posters. The Americans approach this question from a best-for-the-team, protect-your-assets standpoint. The French posters see the Spurs’ (over?)zealous concern for Parker as potentially damaging to his relationship with the franchise. What if Parker is really okay and San Antonio’s doctors come to the same conclusions as the French doctors? If France struggles without Parker and fails to qualify for play in September, will Parker hold a grudge against San Antonio for sabotaging the aspirations of his national team?
It’s a complicated debate. It’s complicated by the fact that neither position is arguing something as simple as right and wrong.
73 Comments
July 31st, 2009 at 5:39 am
Ugh..
July 31st, 2009 at 6:07 am
Its great to have the international players play for their home country. Not only does it sharpens their skills but makes for some good basketball.
As for the Lakers, I am not worried about them. The Spurs just need to worry about the team playing together to get a good rotation come the playoffs. Dont be surprised to see Blair in the starting line up early in the season. He has great skills that can only be improved on when on the court against the other teams #1 squad.
July 31st, 2009 at 6:19 am
Courage, mes braves. Tony will be fine, and this will just give him a little extra rest in the offseason.
As for the Lakers, their hopes now rest on maintaining locker room chemistry on a team that:
…is led by the most unlikeable franchise guy in the league.
…expects unrelenting defensive effort from a pothead who just punked out in front of national news media and crawled back to a team that said to his face that it didn’t need him.
…exchanged a humble, hard-working, high-energy glue guy on the way up for an aging nutcase who one of the best front offices in the league (what team besides Houston could lose two All-Stars and still have the pieces to be a semi-legit contender?) couldn’t wait to get rid of.
…includes Sasha Vujacic, Luke Walton, and Adam Morrison. A guy who lets rookies chew him out during games, a guy who lives in fear of middle-aged women, and everybody’s favorite on-court crybaby.
Last year, Kobe was on a mission that gave his contemptible supporting cast (which at this point is everybody except Gasol, Farmar, and Bynum if he can stay standing) the fear or the fortitude to compete. Now they’ve all got rings, and there’s a new guy in town who has a documented history of breaking plays, punching fans, and shaving typographical errors into his head.
LA’s going down in flames. I’ll bring the marshmallows.
July 31st, 2009 at 7:31 am
LO signing with the Lakers does give them an unbelieveable punch. They can play both fast and slow and are the team to beat this season. Their one weakness is @ PG.
Having said that, I think the Spurs have made their moves under the assumption that LO was going back to the Lakers. I honestly believe that if our team gels well (and with no injuries of course) we can compete with them in a 7 game series. May the better team win.
Go Spurs Go!
July 31st, 2009 at 7:32 am
Of course if Ron Artest does his thing in LA (a la Indiana) then no saying what could happen!!
July 31st, 2009 at 8:00 am
Yes, the LO signing basically salvages the hopes of the Lakers for another championship run. But I still think our roster can be used to guard him effectively. We do have Ian and Haislip who has the length and quickness to guard LO. I think DuJuan Blair can outmuscle Bynum for boards and slow Bynum’s limited offensive game. Duncan on Gasol will be a challenge, but if Duncan can get Gasol in foul trouble, I would like our frontcourt depth vs. the Lakers. Not a cakewalk, but if healthy we should beat them.
July 31st, 2009 at 8:25 am
Let’s not kid ourselves. The Lakers of ’07 (i.e., Bryant, Gasol, Odom and a bucket of golf balls) were good enough to get to the Finals with relative ease. In ’08, they add Ariza to that group, and they win 65 games plus the title (Bynum was a non-factor after his injury). In ’09, they’re adding Bynum (can’t count on another freak injury, can we?) and switching Artest for Ariza (a wash — different skill sets but each obviously has his strengths and can add something to a team).
The mountain is higher today. I’m not sure by how much, but it’s definitely higher.
I don’t buy the chemistry thing. ALL of the top contenders have added a new piece (or pieces) this summer, so everyone’s going to have to deal with incorporating someone different into their system.
To me, the biggest issue is injuries. To go far, you have to get lucky and avoid the injury bug. That’s why Tony’s insistence on risking injury — knowing what happened to Manu last year!!! — is bugging the ____ out of me.
July 31st, 2009 at 8:50 am
I Agree with Rand on what I think he said about the swapping for Ariza and Artest.
Ariza is 24, young, and just beginning to really take off in his career. He was the perfect fit to L.A, and Artest just doesn’t bring the same hustle, athleticism, shooting, and slashing ability Ariza brought.
And Odom is a hard cover, I can’t think of a player who might be able to sufficiently guard him, Any ideas?
July 31st, 2009 at 9:33 am
i thought that was the reason the spurs signed haislip, isnt he gaurding odom? i would like to hear back from you guys, dont you think blair, can handle artest? they have the same stature
July 31st, 2009 at 10:07 am
[...] http://www.48minutesofhell.com/2009/07/31/a-night-of-ugh/The Spurs are pretty damn smart at what they do; from where I sit, they’ve already got this covered. If the sick with talent Lakers prove one player too much for the Spurs, San Antonio can piece together a nice package of expiring … [...]
July 31st, 2009 at 10:35 am
Just a bad time for no 1 in the league to have money that could lure LO elsewhere. But now the Spurs are prepared for Odom better than in previous seasons. Odom’s a tough cover cause he’s a 6’11″ slasher too big for perimeter players and too quick for our bigs to handle. This is the reason why we signed Marcus Haislip to guard guys like Dirk and Lamar. Ian is also another player on our team that can guard Odom which will be intresting.
Now will the Spurs counter this move? To me I have 2 concerns. 1. We have a lot of Bigs but r we big enough (you could argue we only have 1 true center Theo) 2. Do we have a lock down perimeter defender to put on Kobe and others.
Best case senerio for me is Bonner and Finley for Shane Battier.
Spurs Staring lineup: Duncan Mcdyess Jefferson Battier Parker
Bench: Ginobli Mason Hill Mahanimi Haislip Ratliff Blair Finley (possibly if Hou buys him out)
July 31st, 2009 at 11:11 am
There is a new threat in SpursTalk. They say Tony and Holt are mad at each other or something. Is in french so I don’t know the details. Please tell me is a media exaggeration.
July 31st, 2009 at 11:13 am
I like the idea of haislip inserted to challenge odom…it’ll be interesting to see how much playing time he gets this year.
no telling what artest would do if he was flipped like thabeet by blair!
July 31st, 2009 at 11:22 am
Zack:
I know that Blair can handle Artest, he might be able to give Odom fits on defense.
July 31st, 2009 at 11:27 am
I just had a thought: now that Ariza is gone, who are the lakers going to put on Parker and Manu? Artest cant keep up with them. Farmar and Vujajic will have to get some extended court time, which could be great for us. I’d say that cancels out the Odom advantage.
July 31st, 2009 at 11:32 am
I think the biggest danger for LA with Artest is that he is not content to just play defense. He wants to score. During the playoffs, he took countless ill-advised shots, I mean, just shitty, no-damn-sense shots. No one on the Rockets would challenge him when he did so. But with the Lakers, at least Kobe will. I can’t imagine any scenario in which Artest will not grow tired of such hounding really quick, no matter whether the team is winning or losing. I think he and Kobe will come to blows at some point, if not on the court, then off.
July 31st, 2009 at 11:53 am
I’m of the Pop mentality where the team should always want to beat the best. I too like the overall moves by the Spurs this off season. Matching up against the Lake Show looks very strong for the Spurs…with a few presumptions.
1. Healthy Tim, Tony and nearly as important as Tim, Manu. He cures what ails many wounds.
2. I think Gasol is ripe for a punch in the chops 24/7. He has a nice finesse game but more often than not my overall impression of him is as a big softy.
3. Until proven otherwise, I’ll mark down something similar for Bynum. At his young age a player has to be on the floor for long, dependable stretches of the season and during a game. I guess this is why they took a drive down “Artest Avenue”.
4. Presuming much, the Spurs collective drive to win is unmatched and Manu vs Kobe is tit for tat. That is one hell of a match up.
5. Lastly, I like the now “unknown” quality of the Spurs. As much as there is potential some of the new guys may falter, there’s also the possibility they may shine.
It will be fun to watch.
July 31st, 2009 at 12:42 pm
You can act like Gasol and Bynum are too soft, that Artest’s going to run the team chemistry, nobody likes Kobe, whatever. The Lakers are the better team until we prove otherwise. But I think one of the big things we’ve improved on with respect to LA is depth. However we match up against Odom, Gasol, Bynum and Kobe, I think we have a better chance at staying competitive when the starters are getting a rest. Farmar, Vujacic and Walton can rack it up against a mediocre bench without any consistent scoring threats. I’m confident that Roger Mason jr., Blair, and even a well-rested Finley with an improving George Hill at point will play a major role in a playoff series against the Lakers.
July 31st, 2009 at 12:50 pm
I think Rand’s analysis is on point. I also agree with BigJ re Pop’s mentality; I’m reminded of a few LA fans who didn’t care that their team edged SA in the ’08 WCF with Manu at 50%. Not beating a team at it’s best eventually exposes your shortcomings, as happened in LA vs Boston (and to Dallas vs Denver). If our guys beat LA I want them having no excuses and us to earn it. I also know that the winner of the East will be a lesser mental challenge, as LA has Kobe, Phil, their top 5 scorers from last season and are the defending champs.
I don’t recall SA struggling with Odom in the ’08 WCF even though Oberto was guarding him. Seems best to be physical with him and lay back enough to make him a shooter; it takes away his offensive rebounding and ticks of Kobe. Without Ariza, LA would not have won the title and we’d still be talking about Odom not coming through. It’s also worth noting that what guys like Odom and Brown gave LA last year came in contract years. Now Odom returns having to help babysit Artest and not receiving the contract respect he wanted.
Lastly, the pickup of Artest was meant to help with Melo and LeBron. The trade-off of him vs Ariza helps with those guys but hurts their overall defense in terms of foot-speed and athleticism. Artest is a worse matchup trying to guard TP or Manu. Perhaps LA worried too much about playing the Nuggets then Cavs and forgot who their main competition has always been. Advantage Spurs.
July 31st, 2009 at 2:16 pm
Bucks cut Bruce Bowen. I still think he’s a solid defender and believe we didn’t play him much last year cause Manu was hurt and we needed scoring. Anyone see the Spurs picking him up despite our limited roster space?
July 31st, 2009 at 3:47 pm
We have 0 roster space right now Kahuna, otherwise i’d say it was probably likely.
July 31st, 2009 at 3:53 pm
The Spurs could sign Bowen to a vet minimum and make a decision on him-or some other roster hopeful-at the end of camp. They’ll have to trim to 15 before the start of the season. Best bet scenario: find a trade partner that wants Bonner and gives nothing in return. That’ll clear a roster spot.
July 31st, 2009 at 4:10 pm
It’s kind of rich to get on Odom cuz he’s a ‘pothead’ when our star player has a tattoo of a jester and wishes to be called Merlin.
July 31st, 2009 at 4:10 pm
Right now i believe we have no roster space (13) guaranteed contracts:
1: Timmy
2. Manu
3. Tony
4. Jefferson
5. McDyess
6. Blair
7. Hill
8. Mason
9. Haislip
10. Finley
11. Mahinmi
12. Ratliff
13. Bonner
and 2 partially guaranteed…
14. Hairston
15. Williams
as a spurs fan, i would like us to pick up Bowen but i think we need to clear a roster spot to get him… if we can’t do that, i hope he decides to retire and maybe join the Spurs’ coach/training staff…
July 31st, 2009 at 4:20 pm
Timothy Varner,
i know Bonner lack some skills… but i think his shooting ability from 3 will be valuable to our current lineup… i believe he struggled last season being a starter (he should not be) now he will be just coming off the bench to provide some offense… i like the idea of clearing a spot for Bowen, but giving up Bonner for nothing seems too much… just a though…
July 31st, 2009 at 4:40 pm
Fact: Matt Bonner is a better 3 point shooter than Bruce Bowen at this point in time.
July 31st, 2009 at 5:27 pm
I believe the Spurs have moved on, even though a need for our team is a shut down perimeter defender it’s not worth cutting a prospect like Marcus Williams for probably a 1 yr signing. I’m keeping my fingers crossed the Spurs can get Shane Battier for Bonner and Finley
July 31st, 2009 at 5:43 pm
George Hill is an excellent defender. He did as good a job on Kobe last year as anyone else we had on the roster. I dont think we need anything better than what he brings. He cant guard Lebron/Melo because hes too small, but he can guard the Kobe/Wade types in the league.
July 31st, 2009 at 5:44 pm
Oh, and in my opinion, Udoke would be a better pickup than Bowen at this point.
July 31st, 2009 at 5:56 pm
It’s worth noting that in all those times we beat the Suns, we never had an answer for Amare. We never consistently shut down Dirk, either. We don’t have to nullify the opposing roster player-by-player if we play good team defense from start to finish. This has always been one of our major strengths, and I think with the added firepower and reliable bigs this season, the Lakers are going to be stretched on their own defensive rotation. If we can tire out their frontcourt, maybe get someone in foul trouble, it gets a little easier to tighten up on those second or third options, even when without that one lockdown perimeter guy. I’m not saying it wouldn’t help, but I’m not worried that it’s a glaring hole.
July 31st, 2009 at 5:56 pm
Robby,
You can call me Tim.
I agree about Bonner-as a back up he’s a terrific player with a unique skill set. But the Spurs are already going in a different direction upfront. And they contracted his replacement a few weeks back. The writing is on the wall, go read it and see what it says.
Beyond this, the Spurs currently have 7 bigs. He’s the odd duck out. He should be an attractive player for someone. He’s movable.
I don’t think that Bonner or Bowen would play much for the Spurs in 09/10. But Bowen could shore up the weakest point on the roster while helping groom the next generation. He has a legacy in San Antonio. Bonner is an expiring contract on his way to the next town. Between the two, assuming their current ages, I’d prefer Bowen to Bonner every time.
July 31st, 2009 at 5:58 pm
BB,
Great point re: Dirk and Amare.
July 31st, 2009 at 6:00 pm
SpursfanSteve,
Bowen is 5x the player Ime Udoka is.
July 31st, 2009 at 6:21 pm
Any chance we can get mark gasol? He’s young, big and awesome and i’d love to see him stick it to his brother in LA:)
July 31st, 2009 at 6:39 pm
Thanks for the clarification Tim *(Varner)… there’s another Tim here that why… just hoping for all the best for the Spurs…
July 31st, 2009 at 6:40 pm
The thing about not having Bowen that I’m gonna love is other teams would put their best perimeter player on Bowen they can’t anymore. Example Kobe would always have to work so hard to score against us but he’s a great enough player he could still go off, but then he would come down and guard Bowen which basically means he’s getting rest.
He can’t do that when we got Parker Ginobli and RJ on the floor, for the 1st time ever Kobe will be forced to play D against us.
July 31st, 2009 at 6:50 pm
Although with that being said we still need a perimeter Defender who might not have to play as many minutes as Bowen once had to. Yes we have George Hill but there’s a reason why were trying to teach the natural 2 guard to play the point. It’s so we can take TP out of the game for a guy who could D up chris paul and other pg’s while still being able to run the offense. Hill can stick w/ guys like Kobe but they just shoot over him. Hill suited to guard pg and undersizes 2′s like Ben Gordon.
July 31st, 2009 at 7:40 pm
BB, you got it right. Man I used to laugh while I watched Amare get his on the offensive end only to watch TP zoom by him and Nash to get an easy two. Or, when Manu would drive the lane at him and score.
This is an defensive aspect the Spurs lacked last year. If their team D returns to the tops of the league they tend to run into success with this formula.
Hmm, allowing the team’s best player to score 30+ points a game? That’s a strategy Kobe’s been known to fall for at times…
July 31st, 2009 at 7:40 pm
BigKahunaTC,
I think we have another good wing defender in Malik Hairston… he’s skill set is comparable if not better to Ime Udoka… and i think getting a year under his belt makes him more comfortable with our system… an he can also shoot, if things pan out he is own new version of Bruce…
July 31st, 2009 at 7:58 pm
Hey, one other thought: for a guy who has a career of responding marvelously to adversity, what should we expect from Manu this year?
He’s currently written off by scores of the national media as an “old” oft injured, not to regain form star. I can’t imagine that sits well with him?
At least I hope it doesn’t.
July 31st, 2009 at 8:15 pm
I would love to see Bowen back with the Spurs, but it appears there is no spot for him. I would also not want to see him wear the jersey of a Western Conference competitor.
July 31st, 2009 at 8:29 pm
I feel for you guys and Parker. Hopefully he gets his rest and comes back 100% healthy for next year. I know how much it sucks having your best players play overseas over the summer, as Pau Gasol is currently playing somewhere (i believe). Hopefully everyone can come back healthy and a full roster on all teams comes to play, as i think next year could be an NBA year for the ages with all the competition. Another blogger compared this upcoming year with the 1980′s, as that was a decade when the same teams basically competed for the championship. There were elite teams, just like this next year.
July 31st, 2009 at 8:41 pm
Rand,
Unfortunately your post seems more like a wish list than what is likely to happen.
I’ll try to answer them one at a time
1) You say Kobe is the most unlikable guy. Fine, but realize that he is also the most popular NBA player. He is both the most hated and loved player in the NBA. Lakers fans like me love Kobe for what he does and stands for. Plus, either way this doesn’t make a difference whether the lakers win or lose. Kobe’s likability did not change from last year when the Lakers won the championship, or perhaps from 2000-2003 when the lakers 3-peeted.
That “pothead” you are talking about, Lamar Odom, is the best role player in the entire NBA in my opinion. Here is a guy with the third highest +- in the entire NBA. That is the difference in points with him on the court vs him off the court. Here are the top 5: 1) Lebron 2) Chris Paul 3) Lamar Odom 4) Dwane Wade 5) Kobe Bryant. Now I’m not saying that Lamar is as good as those 5, i’m just point out 1 stat (a very important stat) that gives you a glimpse of just how important Lamar is to the team. To try and put him down by calling him a pothead who got punked, etc., is a bit immature. Not to mention that he is the hardest cover for your team -who is going to cover Lamar?
Artest vs Ariza. Well, I loved Ariza and was a HUGE fan. But in almost all aspects of the game, Artest is a better player. Especially on defense. Ariza is great at playing the passing lanes, but against the dominant 3s in our league, he would get man handled. Lebron/Carmelo/Pierce, etc. In fact, we would usually switch Kobe on those dominant people because Ariza could not handle them. Now we have Artest, who is the best in the entire league at covering those 3.
And this post is long enough, so i’ll stop there. As always, time will tell.
July 31st, 2009 at 8:46 pm
Great post Graydon,
I agree that although signing Odom makes the Lakers stronger, the Spurs were expecting this to happen anyways and I still like our chances. Although i’ll give them the edge in terms of talent in 1-5, the spurs have more depth, focus, and hunger. I think that will help us defeat them IF we’re healthy.
I’m a little worried about Tony getting upset at the organization, but not too much. The front office is too professional to let issues or grudges linger for too long without doing things to settle them down.
My only complaint:
That picture is painful to my eyes, and heart. It hurts to watch.
July 31st, 2009 at 8:47 pm
ahh! I meant Tim, great post Tim.
July 31st, 2009 at 8:52 pm
kaveh how’s richard jefferson’s +/- stack up against those guys you mentioned
July 31st, 2009 at 10:17 pm
RJ has a bad +/- because he was a starter on a terrible team. Now he is being asked to be a third, fourth, or even fifth bannana on a contender. I think not being asked to shoulder so much of the offensive load will help all facets of Jefferson’s game.
July 31st, 2009 at 11:59 pm
when the Spurs signed RJ, they don’t expect him to make them champions right away, Spurs are a reasonable team… thats why they added Dice and Haislip got lucky with Blair… and if things really go well Ian and Ratliff will contribute…
and more importantly we must stay HEALTHY… all of players specially the BIG 3. I wish Tony will understand why did the Spurs want more tests… only being cautious… I know you love to help your country Tony, the Spurs and fans love you here too… i hope there is no Hate between you and Spurs…
August 1st, 2009 at 12:01 am
i’m hoping BB was joking. Kaveh has flamed the boards with RJ’s +- since we made that trade.
August 1st, 2009 at 7:57 am
Indeed I was. Tony’s been mad at the Spurs before. I bet everyone will be best friends again by the time the season starts. He probably recognizes that the Spurs are among the more tolerant organizations when it comes to international play in the offseason, this episode aside.
August 1st, 2009 at 8:07 am
Tim,
What about trying to ship Bonner, cash (to even the salaries) and a 2nd round pick to Golden State for Brandan Wright instead of trading him for essentially a roster spot?
While BW had two disappointing years in the league, I think the gamble is good, both in the short run (he’s a combo forward who can play as a big 3 or a quick 4, despite definitely missing the 3pt range) and in the long run (if he has a strong training camp, the FO can exercise the option included in his rookie contract, if not, he basically would be the same expiring contract Bonner is).
Golden State is clearly going with Randolph (who, obviously, is far better) and I think they are quite open to trade young players with potential who saw limited PT in exchange of… nothing/Devean George.
August 1st, 2009 at 8:30 am
ok the bucs waived bruce. time to pick him up.
August 1st, 2009 at 11:06 am
Nick,
That’s an intriguing prospect you bring up there with the Brandon Wright trade. But ultimately, I don’t think BW would really have a place in SA’s system. They need someone who can defend not only mobile 4′s but also bigs who can play with their back to the basket (like Bynum, Gasol, Howard).
Speaking as someone who attended about a dozen games last season and watched most of the rest on TV, BW gets absolutely manhandled in the post. Did you see Gasol snap his shoulder like a wishbone? He missed a good 1/3 of the season due to that injury.
He does have a nice developing offensive game around the basket and rebounds and blocks shots at a pretty good rate. If the Spurs were in total rebuild mode, I’d say go for it, but at this stage he’s really a long term project. What with Ian’s development and Splitter on the way, combined with the addition of defensive minded bigs like Ratliff and McDyess, Brandon just doesn’t have a niche on this team as I see it.
If we could just somehow turn Bonner into Azubuike, now you’re talking. He D’d up Kobe last year better than George Hill, plus shot 45% from 3.
August 1st, 2009 at 11:23 am
Didn’t the Spurs openly covet Jason Kidd just after winning the ’03 championship? I’m sure that didn’t go over well with Tony, although it did motivate him to further his development as a player. I’m not sure I see a silver lining in this tiff (if the story is even accurate). However, I don’t see how it could be that damaging to the relationship between Tony and the organization.
Concerning Bowen, I would love to have him back with the organization, especially if we can open up a roster spot with a trade. If it means cutting Williams or Hairston, I would have to think about it a little bit longer. Essentially we would be signing Bruce for one year and losing (potentially) either of those players for good. I personally would trust Bowen, even at his age, more than anyone else to cover Kobe on those critical end-of-game shots.
August 1st, 2009 at 12:11 pm
Kaveh - love the perspective, you bring to the Spurs site as a laker fan
Odom #3 in +/- in Nba?? Cause he always plays with Kobe #5 and Gasol? Shocker!
Why don’t you extol the amazingness of Bonner on this site, #20 in +/- in Nba? Best of any Spur! If that is such an important criteria? Higher than Nash, Anthony, Gasol, Nowitski, Rondo, Bosh, Parker, Pierce, Billups, Turkoglu etc.,etc. Please…..give me a break.
Watch what happens to Jefferson’s +/-, playing with Parker and Duncan all the time.
I’m surprised the Lakers don’t want an asterisk next to their championship, i.e. “the year all our competitors were injured”, seeing that all-stars Ginobili, Garnett, and Nelson were all hurt.
Signing Odom was a must, but seeing how he said, if the Lakers had lowered the offer to the mid-level for 5 yrs like Miami, he’d have signed anyway, the Lakers clearly overpaid.
We’ll see if Artest can shoot 50% from 3 in the playoffs with the same open looks that Ariza got.
I hope the Spurs sign Bowen back, he would be an important defensive cog come playoff time. Brent Barry left bitter, and look how limited his playing time with the Rockets was this past year.
Go Spurs Go
August 1st, 2009 at 12:53 pm
I just think of something funny. Just like Horry had left LA to sign with us, I wonder what would happen had Trevor Ariza decided to sign with us instead of the Rockets…
He may not fit very well into our system, but its an intriguing thought.
August 1st, 2009 at 1:14 pm
lvmainman,
I agree with your points about +/- being a misleading statistic. I would guess Odom’s is further enhanced by the fact that he is a staring-caliber player who frequently came off the bench. There is no debate that he is a game-changer when he’s on, however, and a big matchup problem for our Spurs.
I can’t believe I’m doing this but I do have to defend Artest. As a resident of Houston, and a secondary Rockets fan (sorry!), I do have to point out that Artest (at least in his time here) was a great spot-up shooter from beyond the arc. He should thrive off open looks he gets playing with Kobe and Gasol. Unlike Ariza, however, he doesn’t stick to his role, and takes many other terrible shots and over-dribbles.
Additionally, although he is no longer good at defending quicker guards (Batter did a superior job defending Roy and Bryant, and accordingly was given the primary responsibility), he should be a good defender against one LeBron James (or other strong wings). So the signing may make sense from that perspective. Unfortunately Kobe is good enough defensively to cover the quicker assignments, like Manu.
As pointed out before, Ariza has had some of the most success against Tony’s penetration. By swapping for Artest, Tony should have a field day against the Lakers. For that reason, along with the questionable ability of Artest to stick to his role, I am not too worried about his signing. Odom will be more of a problem for the Spurs, in my opinion.
August 1st, 2009 at 1:15 pm
*Battier
August 1st, 2009 at 1:36 pm
I can’t think of a single roster spot I’d willingly give to Bowen right now. He’s not good enough and his career is just about over. He can’t defend Kobe either - Kobe shot better than 50% that entire series in the conference finals two years ago. At the other end, he makes us a 4-man team. I don’t even think he’s good enough any more to put in on defense every other possession at the end of the game. He’s just not that good right now - he’s a 38 year-old man who’s made a career out of defending the league’s best, and he’s just not up to it any more. I don’t see this as disloyalty, and I don’t think Bruce would either. I was really sad to see Malik Rose and Stephen Jackson go, too, but we just found other ways to win.
August 1st, 2009 at 1:56 pm
[...] further thoughts on the situation surrounding Tony, take a look at the second half of yesterday’s post by [...]
August 1st, 2009 at 4:40 pm
Nick,
If the Spurs could get BW for Bonner then they’d do it in a heartbeat.
August 1st, 2009 at 6:23 pm
Bonner for a roster spot is a good idea, in my opinion at least (future draft pick and/or cash in return can still be used in possible future trades right?). Let’s not forget the spurs are over the luxury tax line and Peter Holt isn’t one of the richest owner in the league. I’m assuming at least 2 million of salary can be shed if Bonner is replaced by (veteran-minimum-paid) Bowen, and that’s 4 million saved on Mr. Holt’s account when we consider the luxury tax.
Sure, Bonner may have some nice skills but let’s face it: he’s a defensive liability. Even at 38, Bowen can still defend and knock down occasional 3s.
August 1st, 2009 at 7:42 pm
Kaveh,
Actually, I think my post is a pretty good assessment of what is likely to happen.
- I didn’t say that *fans* don’t like Kobe. Who cares who the fans like? I said he’s an unlikeable guy as a teammate - he’s not a locker room leader, never has been, and pretty much every story I’ve read about his petty spats with guys he’s supposed to be inspiring bear that out. Which was the entire point. I’m sure he’s no less likeable now than he was during previous Lakers championship series - but he doesn’t have Shaq now, and he may not be able to count on other teams’ injuries giving him a soft road to a ring.
- Lamar Odom is the best role player in the entire NBA? You’re certainly entitled to your opinion, I just don’t think anybody else on the planet shares it, including Lamar Odom. And I wasn’t calling him a pothead who punked out to put him down - I was calling him a pothead who punked out because he’s a pothead, and because he punked out. Which, in the context of whether or not we’re gonna see a serious level of effort from him next season after he signs a multi-year contract with a team that dissed him, seems pretty relevant.
- “…in almost all aspects of the game, Artest is a better player (than Ariza).” Well, except for the aspects of not jacking up terrible shots, not disappearing for minutes at a stretch, not breaking plays, not having lost a step since his vaunted defensive heyday, not being on a steep career downslope, and not being a total lunatic.
August 1st, 2009 at 9:14 pm
This just in… Ron Artest is a lunatic.
August 2nd, 2009 at 9:05 am
http://www.hardwoodparoxysm.com/2009/07/30/oh-okay-when-you-explain-it-that-way-what-you-did-seems-perfectly-logical/
It’s a link that shows a video of Ron artest talking about the Brawl in the Pacers-Pistons game.
It’s proof that the man is just unremorseful, and just plain crazy
August 2nd, 2009 at 10:03 am
I am an unabashed Laker fan. But I love the Spurs (as I love any second-best competition) too. I believe that a healthy Spurs team will compete with the Lakers. Who has the advantage? Only time will tell.
My opinion is that next year’s Lakers squad is much different (and improved) from last year’s team. With a healthy Andrew Bynum (are those church bells tolling for a wedding or funeral?) and the addition of Ron Artest, dynamics for the Lakers second unit will probably transform/change the most. What we’re likely to see are second-unit lineups of Bynum/Gasol-Odom-Artest+parts. This year the people who (wishfully) dog Kobe’s “mileage” will be silent. Similarly, Derek Fisher and Pau Gasol might work a lot less during the regular season-ensuring they’ll be fresh for what’s important.
Ron Artest is probably one of the most entertaining characters in the NBA. Beyond the Palace incident, he’s a good enough guy. Loopy, but entertaining. He’s going to fit in perfectly as a 3-pt specialist on the starting squad and as a first, second or third scoring option on the second unit. He’ll probably get 10-12 shots a game and those posessions are coming from players like Sasha, Farmar, and Fish. I’ll take Artests 35-40% 3-pt shooting to any of the aforementioned players.
One of the pitfalls of Ariza was his inability to initiate offense. He don’t have a low-post game, he don’t have a handle, and he don’t do much else than spot-up and slash. Which is great-no-perfect for the first unit: but not so great for the second. Kobe likely logged significant minutes with the second team because Ariza could not “handle” any offensive responsibilities beyond his limited role. The advent of Artest likely means significant reductions in playing time for many of the starters. Over a season, that time accumulates and amounts to something. I know that Spurs fans are cognizant of playing-time dynamics and recognize their importance for a deep playoff run.
Really, Artest’s integration comes down to a conflict of force (Artest’s playing personality) and form (the Lakers’ system). I believe that the Triangle offense is perfect for a player like Artest; and that the team already has many strong personalities and a winning culture that will dictate Artest’s participation. Maybe this is optimism, maybe not. But I have a feeling deep in the pitiest of my stomach that the Artest crash-n’-burn camp are g(r)asping for hope.
For the Spurs: I know that Pop sits starters to keep them rested, but how have recent additions impacted this approach? Do the Spurs have enough depth now to play everyone for 82 (god willing)? How do y’all foresee the first and second teams shaking out? Which will be the most affected units, how does playing time change, etc.?
This really is a great time for Basketball. Are we there yet?
Sorry for the LA-invasion, but what can I say, I love this blog.
August 2nd, 2009 at 12:40 pm
Rand- I’ve got no love for the lakers or kobe (I’m a spurs fan thru and thru) and I agree with everything in ur posts, but for the sake of even handedness I must concede that Kobe showed less cockiness and smugness and overall more maturity and humility last year. Gotta love the 08 celtics for that!
Also I would tend to agree that odom might indeed be the best role player in the NBA, but that’s probably more because of his limited role behind gasol and bynum along with the fact that on most other teams he would be at least a second or third option. Underperforming and very versatile star=greatest role player.
On a different note, as good as the Spurs are this year, and as many players (and potential) we have in our front court right now, we still don’t have a legit 7 foot presence compared to the Lakers who have 2!
But hey, since when has height mattered in the NBA? Oh…
August 2nd, 2009 at 8:41 pm
Well, you do have Tim Duncan. He’s no slouch.
Another question for Spurs fans (that watched the finals): After “witnessing” Gasol’s work on Howard, would you say that he’s approaching Duncan’s defensive skill level? I know they have slightly different skill sets; but I have to say I was very impressed (and surprised) by Pau’s performance (not that he didn’t bring it consistently throughout the year) in comparison to the ’08 debacle.
August 3rd, 2009 at 3:45 am
Kareem-
Unabashed Laker fan that loves the Spurs? Now I’ve heard it all.
As far as I can tell, how the new look Spurs rest their players and manage their starting and bench this year will be determined entirely by the durability of Tim and Manu (duh). Personally I don’t think we have the frontcourt talent to rest Tim any more than we have in the recent past (especially when we play the elite teams).
I see MG coming off the bench like he did before 09 now that we have a slasher in RJ.
I also see Hill getting decent minutes…he’s definitely maturing nicely.
We do have the depth now to rest Timmy and Manu more during back to backs and while playing lesser competition, which will undoubtedly be welcomed come playoff time. Yet the regular season success of our front court may give us false confidence going into the post season.
If you couldn’t tell by my previous post, I’m still worried that our front court is still not elite. I know TD is no slouch, he’s my favorite player of all time (besides #23 of course), but TD for 33 min/g and Dice for 30 min/g just isn’t enough to contain Gasol (37 min/g) AND Bynum AND Odom and let’s not forget the oft unmentioned and underrated Josh Powell. Haislip/Bonner/Ratcliff/Blair must must must step up and contribute quality minutes for us to have any chance against LA in a 7 game series, simple as that.
As a Spurs fan, of course I hope they do, but the realist in me hopes our FO takes some action to consolidate that talent into a singular impact big man by the trade deadline. Who? Chandler, Gortat and Camby would have all made me so happy this summer…
Which leads us to whether Pau Gasol is as good a defensive player as Duncan now. Interesting how you worded this question. Not who’s a better player now, but whether he’s approaching TD’s defensive skill level. Surprisingly tactful for a Laker fan
I think that Gasol is an underrated defensive player and gets labeled soft because of his play at C. When he’s the PF, he can almost always hold his own (although Scola did do a number on him). Not sure if I would go so far as to credit Gasol with shutting down Dwight Howard….I’d say it was more of a team effort along with smart coaching. Howard’s offensive game, as your name sake - Abdul Jabbar pointed out, can be painfully predictable.
I also see Gasol’s defensive play as more like what I’d expect from an energy big man coming off the bench, he runs the floor and hustles and can make things happen on d. On the other hand, one-on-one in a half-court situation against a big man that has a proper, post and back to the basket game? Pau is no Tim Duncan. But then again, how many bigs play with their back to the basket anymore? Not Dwight Howard, that’s for sure…
Bottom line, TD is without question an all-time all-defensive PF, especially when it comes to half-court styled basketball. Pau gains ground on Timmy for being more spry and athletic than TD (at this point in time), in a league that is seemingly less half-court oriented which favors Gasol’s defensive style…
As far as I can tell at least…
August 3rd, 2009 at 9:19 am
Beat Counselor-
spot on with your analysis of the Gasol/Duncan question. Couldnt agree more, and definitely couldnt have said it as well, much less better myself. But i would like to elaborate a bit on something you mentioned: Pau is labeled soft because he often has to play at center instead of PF. I think this is a huge reason that Duncan is still much better defensively than Pau. Starting towards the end of The Admirals career, Duncan was forced to guard the other teams premier big man. Tim has often had to play the younger Shaq, and shut him down. Pau one on one against a 28-30 year old Shaq would have gotten completely abused, Duncan held his own. My point is that Duncan has always been able to match up well against the 4 or the 5 from the other team and Pau really only matches up well with most teams 4′s.
I do not agree that our frontcourt is not elite. The lack of a single dominant big next to Timmy does not mean that we wont be able to hold our own. Having the multiple bigs that we have allows us to match up with anyone. Ratcliff is an excellent defender and should be able to do some good work on Bynum or Gasol. Blair is a solid energy/rebounding guy. We have no idea what to expect from Mahinmini. Bonner can strectch the floor and keep other bigs from guarding the paint. I dont know anything about Haislip, to be honest, but even if our rotation is TD/McDyess/Blair/Bonner/Ratcliff, i think we can play the matchup game. We’ll pick our poison with the lakers and let Lamar go off and just shut everyone else down. In previous years its how we beat the suns, the cavs, and even the lakers. Lets look at it this way. Kobe will get 30 points a game against us- but we’ll make him work for it like we always do. We’ll throw a body on Lamar, but we wont let him be a passer or a playmaker. We make him a scorer. So he gets 30 a game. We can hold Artest to 20 no problem. But then where are the touches for the other Lakers bigs? The average NBA team takes what, 90 shots a game against us? To get his 30 points, Kobe will have to take at least 20 shots. Artest will probably need about 15 to get to his 20 points. To get his 30, we’ll say Lamar has a good day and only needs 15 shots. Bynum and Gasol have at most 20 shots a piece. With Duncan guarding Gasol, its unlikely more than 10 of those shots are going in, so we’ll say he gets 15 points. We’ll say Bynum gets 15 as well. That puts the lakers at 110 points. Dont be discouraged by these numbers, because they are hypothetical and for Lakers fans, that has to be the best case scenario, because realistically there is no way all those guys will go off like that on the same night- because those wont be the only guys shooting the ball. Fish will launch some 3′s, Farmar/Vujajic/Walton will shoot some. And all that takes away from your best players opportunities.
Basically, we still have the advantage of being able to control the pace. I think we’ve proven that with discipline, its much easier to slow down a game than it is to speed one up. If we hold our opponents to 90 possessions a game or less, we will win, its that simple. Our defense will be much, much better this year because of our added bigs. Ratcliff is a good defender, Blair is a good defender, Mahinmini might be a good defender. Bonner will get spot minutes and wont be abused by the lakers second string of Mbenga/whoever else. We just have to play Spurs basketball, slow it down, and play to our strengths. If i’m not mistaken, its how this blog got its name- playing against the Spurs is 48 minutes of slow, grind it out basketball. Its 48 minutes that feels like an eternity. Its 48 minutes of Hell.
August 4th, 2009 at 1:35 am
You know, Lamar Odom is still the guy that shows up once every blue moon.
Yes he’s an awkward person to defend because of his versatility, but that’s if he’s actually going to play well that night. And let’s face it, he doesn’t show up every night.
August 4th, 2009 at 7:33 pm
BB + Jblock,
Jefferson’s +- is surprisingly awful, and it has nothing to do with how bad his team is. Here is the link: http://www.82games.com/0809/0809MIL.HTM
The Bucks last year scored .7 points MORE than their opponents when Jefferson was OFF the floor. The Bucks last year scored -1.7 points LESS than their opponents when Jefferson was ON the floor. So his +- is very bad. But this is just 1 stat.
Also, it has nothing to do with how good your team is, since it is comparing how your team does against its opponents with you on/off the court. If you put Lebron on the worst team in the league, he would have the best +- in the league -perhaps the number would even be higher on the worst team because their is such a relative difference.
August 4th, 2009 at 7:44 pm
ivmainman,
I hope that you are not serious regarding this comment:
“I’m surprised the Lakers don’t want an asterisk next to their championship, i.e. “the year all our competitors were injured”, seeing that all-stars Ginobili, Garnett, and Nelson were all hurt.”
I give spurs fans the highest of merits, and this argument seems a little below you guys (as a collective at least, i’m not really familar with your comments since i don’t spend much time on this blog).
To quickly answer that, there are injuries in every year. I could use the same exact argument for the 08 celtics -should they have an asterix around their championship because they played the lakers who were missing 2 starters? Andrew Bynum and Trevor Ariza did not play in the playoffs that year due to injury. Believe me, it would have been nice to see Ariza playing D on Pierce rather than Vlade Rodmanavich and Luck Walton (no wonder Pierce was finals MVP and not Garnett). Also, who can forget just this last year -Bynum came back with only 4 games to go in the regular season. As you saw in the playoffs and the NBA finals, he was only 50% of his true self, not to mention rusty.
Again, these arguments are childish. Everyone can make them again and again. The fact is that the Lakers won the championship last year. Instead of attempting to discredit that championship, you should give them the credit they deserve and try to dethrown them next year.
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