A Note on Horry’s Jersey

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Between Bowen’s retirement and last week’s Hall of Fame inductions, we’ve been having a lot of conversations about the ways in which we memorialize the players we love. So it seemed like a relatively appropriate moment to bring up the question of Robert Horry and the future use of the number 5.

We’ve had an extended conversation about whether or not Horry deserves to be enshrined in the Hall of Fame and, in all honesty, I’m still undecided on the matter. But as the winner of 7 NBA championships, it seems like he should at least have his jersey retired somewhere. The question is where?

I’m more than happy to offer number 5 a spot in San Antonio’s rafters. If a player was a key contributor on a championship team (not to mention two), and spent more than just a season or two with a franchise, I think that player deserves to have his number retired. Some people might say that role players, even great players, don’t deserve that type of treatment. Personally, if they brought championship banners to town, I wonder what more you could ask of them.

It’s always possible that one of the teams he played for (Hou, LA, SA) may be uninterested in retiring his number, which would simplify the issue slightly, but I think that is unlikely. He is remembered fondly by all 3 franchises, and in some sense, is more important to the Rockets and Lakers than he is the Spurs. (He helped win the former franchise’s only two titles; he helped win 3 for the latter).

Oddly enough, the answer might be quite simple: Where does Horry want to have his number retired? Is there a franchise to which he feels most connected? Let that be where his jersey hangs. But make no mistake: It deserves to hang somewhere.

  • 09.20.21.50

    Agreed.

  • http://atxsports.net Andrew A McNeill

    As much as I enjoyed the Big Shot Bob days in San Antonio, the fact the he won titles with the Lakers (and defeated the Spurs on the way to a couple of them) turns me against seeing his number retired in SA.

    Say what you want, but because of those days, he’s never been a true Spur in my eyes. More like a gun for hire.

  • GMT

    I tend to see him in the gun for hire light as well. But that’s not to say I didn’t like him as a Spur, because I admired his grit (especially that Nash hip-check). However, I couldn’t help but hate him while he was on the Lakers. There’s just too much ambivalence for me to say that #5 should be in our rafters. I think he’s more worthy of that in Houston.

    Also, I think that jerseys should be retired for players that are more representative of the franchise. Take how so many other NBA fans have called the Spurs a dirty team. That’s almost entirely due to Bowen, which is why he deserves his to get retired.

  • http://celticshub.com Zach

    Without doing any extensive research, I feel like Horry’s best moments came in Houston and LA.

  • jacob

    I agree with Andrew, I never felt Horry was a true Spur. He was on the Houston team that beat us in the WCF and the Laker teams in the 00s. Let’s save #5 for someone else.

  • NL

    Even though I agree I never felt Horry’s strong connection with the Spurs as other players, I would welcome #5 if San Antonio if he chooses so but I just don’t think he would. I think he’d choose the Lakers buut would the Lakers do so?

  • Sean

    I don’t think Horry deserves to be in the Spurs rafters any more than Steve Kerr does.

    Didn’t he only play, like 5 seasons for the team and average 16-20 MPG?

  • Jimbo

    No. I cannot believe that fans are just willing to have the jerseys retired of players who may have contributed to championship. Retiring the jersey is the HIGHEST honor a player can get and, as such, should be extremely limited and be handed out ONLY to those with an exceptional body of work. Horry, Bowen and Avery didn’t do nearly enough…

  • John

    No. I also see Horry as a gun for hire. Furthermore, I think that retiring a player’s number should really only be reserved for the absolute best players in franchise history; do you think the Boston Celtics are going to go back and retire all of the jerseys from “key contributers” from all 17 of their championships? Heck, by that standard they’re going to wind up retiring Kendrick Perkins’ number!

    Avery and Sean Elliot get a pass because they brought in our first title, and the first one is always extra special. Bruce, I’m on the fence about. He was a truly unique player and I think our third most important player (not 3rd most talented) from 2004-2006 behind only Tim and Manu while Tony was still coming into his own, and along with those three he was the only one who was here for all three titles this decade. It’s been said that he spawned a player “archetype,” which is pretty incredible for someone like him, and his philanthropic work in San Antonio is incredible. But at the same time, he was ultimately a role player. I can lean either way on him.

    Beyond that, there’s absolutely nobody who I will hear the case for when it comes to retired numbers. Right now, we have 6 retired numbers (00 Moore, 6 Johnson, 13 Silas, 32 Elliot, 44 Gervin, 50 Robinson). You know that Duncan (21), Ginobili (20), and Parker (9) are all mortal locks to have their numbers retired, so that’s nine numbers retired. Then if you want to throw in Bruce (12), that’s ten. Players mostly try to stick to numbers that are fifty and lower, so when this era’s all said and done, that’s going to be about 20% of all commonly used numbers will be off-limits.

    If you just keep retiring the numbers of players who were popular or were a nice role player on every championship team, those retired numbers suddenly stop meaning anything. I’ll always remember Horry fondly for all of the things he brought to the table and helped get us a couple of championships, but there’s just no way he deserves to be up in the rafters alongside the likes of Robinson, Duncan, Gervin, et. al.

  • http://www.48minutesofhell.com Graydon Gordian

    John,

    Just FYI, the Celtics have retired the numbers of 22 players. They don’t have to go back and retire the numbers of key contributors. They already did.

    And yet somehow they still manage to think of numbers to put on the back of the jerseys, so I wouldn’t stress too much about that either.

  • Ray

    AJ was loved by the team and fans, but Bowen contributed much more during our championship years than Avery and between Bruce and Timmy, they truly were the defence everyone else in the NBA feared about the Spurs. Given Bruce’s work ethic, Community involvement, and the way he truly embodied the defensive toughness our championship teams were known for, I can’t imagine his number NOT hanging from the rafters.

  • dacho

    no way horry will have his jersey up at staples… if you see the names up there, they were not only important lakers but all time greats. horry was cool but nowhere near that criteria. let houston retire his number.

  • Ray

    Also, I don’t believe 5 should be in our rafters, definately houston, mabe LA.

  • NL

    He didn’t play very long with Houston, either. 4 or 5 seasons maybe? Perhaps the Suns will retire it, along with the towel he threw in Ainge’s face and the scorers’ table he checked Nash into during the playoffs.

  • http://www.48minutesofhell.com Graydon Gordian

    As I think about it further, I am increasingly convinced of the idea that Houston is the most appropriate place. But I would still offer it to him if he said he wanted to be remembered as a Spur most.

    NL,

    “Perhaps the Suns will retire it…”

    +1

  • ralphredimix

    He has 7 rings. He belongs in the HOF. NUFF SAID.

  • John

    wasn’t Horry’s number in Houston ’25’?

  • Zeus

    Let’s say a regular roster-filling player was signed by the Spurs in one of their odd year championships. He never gets playing time and bides his time on the bench, but finally sees the hardwood around March. What if he hit his stride and made a contribution during the playoff run, made some gutsy shots, and helped win a title with his 10-20 minutes per game off the bench? Does that player get his jersey retired?

  • Aly

    Big Shot Bob was interviewed by Dan Patrick on this exact topic and he himself said he’d go in as a Laker.

  • http://www.goodtimescomic.blogspot.com Jordan

    I would have to agree that Horry’s jersey shouldn’t be retired by the Spurs. Personally, I’d like for the jerseys to be retired only for players who were Spurs in their career. By that I don’t mean they never went to another team, but rather that they spent their blood, sweat and tears here.

    Bowen should be retired but he’s barely making it, if only for the reason that he means a lot to the organization. And if we don’t retire Bowen’s jersey, we definitely shouldn’t retire Horry’s, especially since he did break our backs in LA before this.

    I think he’s a special player and I hope we honor him in some way, but I agree that retiring a number is the highest honor given by a franchise to a player. Horry was too much of a journeyman for my taste.

    On an interesting sidenote, by this logic I wouldn’t retire Shaq’s number anywhere, since he kept jumping from franchise to franchise. He’s a HoF player for sure, but I wouldn’t retire his number if I was any of those franchises (even LA) after the way he treated them.

  • Spurlady

    I have to disagree with you on this one. Horry doesn’t deserve to have his number retired by San Antonio. This isn’t his city and while he did contribute to titles, he doesn’t hold a place in the hearts of Spurs fans like David, Sean, or even Bruce. I think for a franchise to retire a number, that player should have played all or most of their career with only that team. I realize as Jordan points out, that some deserving people wouldn’t ever have their number retired, but that is how the business side of basketball plays out.

  • Sean

    Aly,

    With the insight you have offered…

    end of thread.

    Anyone who wants to hang in the Lakers rafters is not welcome in the Spurs rafters.

  • http://myspurslink.blogspot.com Robby

    I think the main reason why Horry might choose the Lakers to hang his jersey is by the numbers…. I mentioned it in the previous Bowen thread…
    2 rings with the Rockets 3 with the Lakers and 2 with the Spurs and maybe he also felt he made more big shots for the Lakers.

    Having said that, I respect Horry’s game and his jersey should be retired somewhere, where it should be retired is not really that important, main point is he deserves his jersey to be retired, just my thoughts…

  • Kalis

    Didn’t Horry wear #5 and #25 for roughly equal amounts of time? Which do you retire, then?

    I’m actually wondering which Bryant jersey they’ll retire in LA in a few years. He wore more titles as #8, but accomplished more individually as #24.

  • Rey

    When they promoted the NBA Legends game here in the Philippines, Robert Horry was advertised as “from the Los Angeles Lakers,” and the poster that has his picture showed him as a Laker. I’m not really sure about how the other Rockets and Spurs fans would react to it, but for me (a Spurs fan, first and foremost; but my second favorite team is the Rockets), it was quite annoying, especially since he was, after all, partially responsible for the two championships in Houston and was a special part of the two championships in San Antonio. But in thinking about it… well, he got three rings in LA, so maybe his number should be retired there. After all, the Celtics retired Jim Luscotoff’s number, right?

    I think that before consider Horry’s number for retirement, there are a lot of other Spurs out there who deserve their numbers in the rafters more than he does, but who haven’t, for one reason or another. Personally, I would also consider Alvin Robertson, Malik Rose, Brent Barry and Vinny del Negro’s numbers as well if we are going to consider Horry’s number. I would agree that Big Shot Rob is more of a hired gun rather than a great commander or captain of the Spurs.

  • Phil

    Should Brent Barry’s number be retired?

    They were Spurs for almost the same amount of time. Horry had some more notable playoff moments, but Barry was arguably a better overall player, both in terms of his contributions to the Spurs and his overall career.

    He had some notable contributions on the court, but beyond that 4th quarter against Detroit, nothing truly meriting such a lofty award. He is not someone who has helped shape Spurs culture the way that other retired players have. He really has not earned it.

  • johnny

    Horry GAME 5 FINALS AGAINST THE PISTONS. NUFF SAID. One of the best games I have ever seen everyone. He won that game for the spurs. Best big game performance from big game Rob. In this game he was not just the guy hitting the opportunistic 3 to win the game. Which of course he also did. But for the first time on the big stage he was the best player on the court for the 4th qtr and overtime. Amazing, he saved the Spurs not with a shot but by being the 4th qtr and overtime star of that game.

  • Rye

    I can’t say for certain, obviously, but I’m pretty sure Houston is the place he’d want his jersey retied most, if he could choose. He speaks more fondly of his time their and of playing with Olajuwon than anywhere else.

    As for whether or not the Spurs should retire his jersey, I’d have to go with a resounding no. This is the same question I brought up with regards to Bowen: where do you draw the line?

    Yeah, Horry made a cadre of bigs shots in his time with the Spurs, and was a key component on 2 championship teams, but he was not only not consistently great, he was not even consistently good. He generally sleep-walked through the regular season, and shot poor percentages.

    I’m a huge Horry fan, and not just for what he did in game 5 of the ’05 Finals, which was the stuff of legend. He’s easily one of the most heady players I’ve ever watched play the game, but overall, at his best he was a slightly above average player, but never anything resembling being a consistent impact player.

    You have to be rational, and avoid being nostalgic in these types of situations. At this rate (particularly if the Spurs win another 1-2 championships in the Duncan era), 20 years from now the team will have a bunch of common numbers retired. You’ll see the 2029-2030 Spurs all wearing football numbers.

  • Jones

    Houston should retire him.

    But if he wants to hang in LA, then that’s his choice. The thing with Horry is that he’s almost like a politician - I get the sense he’ll change his tune depending on his audience. Was he in LA when he made that comment to Dan Patrick? It’s a valid question.

    However, not matter how we cut it, his SA years were his relatively worst years. It seems odd to retire someone when for the majority of their career for that team they should have already been in retirement. I love his contributions, but let’s remember this clearly - his last few years were of fairly non-existent contribution.

  • ThatBigGuy

    I vote no. He was a good player, but I agree with the idea that only truly great players or players who mean more to the organization than their numbers suggest should be be hung, not some one who didn’t play very well most of the time, but hit some shots in crunch time, when everything is completely overrated, and bumped Nash. Good player, but not rafter worthy.

    I’m a huge Bowen fan, and I will agree that he is a stretch for getting his jersey hung, although I’d argue all day for it. Just saying.

  • Kaveh

    I can’t believe everyone agreed on Bowen, who was at best an AVERAGE role player, and at worst a below average all around role player. I mean if you guys retire Bowen, I think you would retire an individual who is at least statistically, the worst player ever to have his number retired. I dare you to find a statistically worse player than Bowen, because you won’t.

    Of course there are 2 sides to basketball, but even on defense, a defensive wing player is perhaps the most common player in the NBA. On offense his numbers were quite atrocious. Here are his PER numbers for his time with the Spurs in the reg season:

    8.2
    9.1
    8.2
    9.5
    9.1
    7.1
    7.0
    5.4 (i don’t quite EVER remember seeing a number this low before…on any player)

    His playoff PER:

    9.1
    8.9
    6.5
    5.4
    7.9
    8.5
    7.0
    7.4

    The man has never broken into double figure PER, EVER, either in the regular season or in the playoffs. PER is what Hollinger uses as an average for how good a player is. Of course stats are not everything. But Bowen’s stats are the worst i’ve ever seen for any player, no less someone being considered to have his jersey retired.

    Horry is much more deserving than Bowen in my opinion. But even Horry would only be considered in my book for his 7 titles. His big shots were historic, and give him a huge leap over Bowen in deserving this honer, but still leave him a bit short.

  • vikombe

    There are two questions here, the hall of fame and the spurs retiring his jersey. I’ll start with the fringe question regarding his nomination to the HOF. I think he is a second or third ballot hall of famer. Why? Because of playing a critical role in 7 championship teams with credible offense, defense and clutch plays. Without Horry you can argue the rockets win one ring, the Lakers win two and the spurs miss out on the 2005 championship. Horry was responsible for 3 rings. Let’s not choose to ignore this. Additionally, his dominant skill (outside shooting) was an integral part of all three championship teams, the perfect side-kick to a big man who attracts double teams. NBA teams have constantly tried to find players that duplicate this skill (think of our current obsession with likes of Bonner, Haislip or players like Rashard Lewis). Horry’s play contributed significantly to the development of the game to justify his “eventual” nomination to the HOF.

    The question of whether the spurs should retire his jersey is less straight forward. My personal view is no. As much as he contributed (basically won us the championship) to the Spurs 2005 championship, he was in the twilight of his career. Horry was in his prime with the Lakers and he did most of his damage with them, that’s 3 rings with the Lakers vs. 2 with rockets and 2 with the Spurs. If his number is retired it should be with Lakers or rockets as the team that drafted him. What if he opted to have his jersey retired by the spurs, should the spurs turn him down?

  • Ralph-John

    I’ve the arguments, some enlightening and some being somewhat asinine…does anyone know that players can have multiple jersey retirements?

    I think before it’s all said and done, Horry will have his jersey number(s) retired by Houston and Los Angeles.

    No championships with no Horry for Houston, and ditto for L.A.

    In the case of San Antonio, he didn’t play very many minutes during the regular seasons, overall, and he was therefore less of a factor, and the smart fans will recognize this…but that doesn’t mean he won’t be honored.

    Just my opinion.
    ————————-
    Someone inquired about Kobe’s jersey being retired, and I believe the Lakers will honored Nos. 8 and 24 as retired numerals.

  • Jordan

    Kaveh,

    I think that’s what makes Bowen a good retired number. He helpe shape spurs culture. We aren’t about stats here. We’re about loyalty, wins and teamwork. Bowen brought all of those to the table, Horry (while I’ve heard he’s a great teammate, and definitely a winner) did not personify the culture, nor can he be considered loyal to the Spurs, he is professional for us.

    I don’t think we should retire a bench player that isn’t someone like Manu. And to all those posters talking about Horry’s epic performance in game 5. Role players are supposed to step up. If you don’t have a role player stepping up, you usually won’t win a series. Steve kerr stepped up, Malik rose did too. I don’t think we should retire their numbers.

    Bowen = yes in my book. He’s loyal, sacrificed his own personal glory for the team and was integral to 3 championships, that in itself should be enough.

  • g

    As far as Horry being in the HOF I don’t think so. The Hall of Fame is reserved for the greatest in the game. While I agree Horry is a heady player and clutch shooter (possibly one of the most clutch non-super star basketball players), I don’t think he is deserving of the hall of fame.

    I also do not think he deserves to have his number retired for the Spurs. As others have mentioned, he didn’t play here very long and isn’t one I personally think of as a representative of the Spurs. He isn’t one of those that I think of as proud to be a Spur and wanted their career to be all about San Antonio.

    Bruce, in my opinion, represents Spurs basketball. When I think of Bruce, I can only picture him as a Spur. He is so involved in San Antonio’s culture and community and seemed to me as one who loved both the city and organization. He is definitely one of the best perimeter defenders during his time/prime and (again just my opinion) definitely deserves his number to be up in the rafters. His character, work ethic, willingness to play a role, contributions to the community. Representative of the Spurs and one of their all-time great Spurs? You bet!!!

  • Alex

    This is absolutely redic. Horry has street cred across the league. He may not have won the rings for the spurs. But they definitely wouldn’t have won them without him. You can say that for everyplace he went. Look at kc jones for his HOF cred. Similiarr career stats and 6 rings with the celtics. He has more cred because he did in 3 different places.

  • SA_Ray

    I don’t think Horry spent enough time and made enough impact as a Spur to get his jersey retired. Don’t get me wrong. He was great and we probably don’t win in 2005 without him.

    But I think if you are going to have your jersey retired then when someone hears your name they should think Spur.
    And when I saw Robert Horry I imagine most people think Lakers or Houston first.
    Maybe he can get a 3 colored jersey hung somewhere with all 3 teams.

    Bowen should be a lock for jersey retirement since he was a defensive anchor for the Spurs for 3 championships and for all the work he does in SA outside of basketball.

  • L-Man

    Wow! A lot of interesting opinions. I too say no, but I loved Horry and he was clutch for three different teams. Like Fisher (who I can’t stand) they have been the most clutch role players of all time.

  • Ivander

    I think it should be Robert Horrys’ decision where he wants to have his jersey retired. I think it should be in LA or Hou, even if he has contributed a lot to 2 titles of the Spurs.
    I totally disagree with Jimbo though who thinks that Bruce Bowen doesn’t deserve to have his jersey retired. The man was on the roster on every single title year in the 2000’s and without his defensive efforts many things would have gone differently!

  • Kyle

    There are two substantial plays that come to mind when I think of Robert Horry and Spurs championship runs: 1. His shot in Game 5 of the NBA Finals against Detroit. He doesn’t make that and I don’t think San Antonio pulls out the series. 2. The hip check on Nash in ’07. Without this one I still think the Spurs would’ve taken the series, but you can never know for sure. All that said, I’m enough on the fence to say he shouldn’t have his jersey retired in San Antonio. That should only happen when its a certainty. What if he got the key to the city instead?

  • andy

    Re: Horry in the hall,

    i’m sorry, but if kickers can be in the football hall of fame, horry deserves a spot in cooperstown. i don’t care how many minutes he played, not even jordan has had a big impact on winning 7 championships. i don’t remember there every being a guy who could impact a game in such fleeting but pivotal ways.

    i love bowen, despite his stats, and even prided myself on more than once being compared to him on the ut austin courts, but i don’t think he should have his number retired. in my opinion, the only spurs numbers that should be retired are gervin’s, robinson’s, and eventually duncan’s and parker’s. call me hard, but retiring a number should be extraordinarily special. sure the celtics have retired 22 numbers, but at that pace, 100 years from now they’ll only have 44 numbers left. what happens in 200 years? yes, i’ve thought about the state of basketball in 200 years. i’m not crazy.

  • Kobe fan

    Robert Horry should hang his jersey up in staples center because i remember when he hit the buzzer against the kings in the playoffs and also when he hit it against the Pacers.