Creationism vs. Evolution: Spurs get front row look at the Kobe-Lebron debate

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Texas is no stranger to intense debates, having long been the national hotbed for our public education system’s creationism vs. evolution discussion. Over the next few days a different sort of debate will play out in the AT&T Center, one that still challenges longstanding values and beliefs.

Kobe Bryant or LeBron James, which one is the best player in the NBA?

Ask Tim Duncan, who at one point in his career could make a pretty convincing argument for himself, and he’d probably answer Kobe on Wednesday and LeBron on Friday. As far as opponents go, the San Antonio Spurs will never face better players in consecutive games.

And Texas may not ever again be privy to as heated a sports debate.

For all the high-flying wings that have been built up as the next air apparent, from Grant Hill and Vince Carter to Tracy McGrady and Dwyane Wade, it’s been Kobe Bryant who has come closest to Michael Jordan.

His career arch mirroring Jordan-transforming from high-flying scorer to coldblooded midrange tactician-Bryant has been mistakenly labeled at times as the greatest player throughout the past decade.

Michael Jordan is the best that ever played. Kobe Bryant is the player that most closely resembles Michael Jordan. Therefore Kobe Bryant is the best player in the NBA.

It’s a logical and somewhat comforting argument. One that certainly works within the framework of what we know and value in today’s NBA, namely that the league’s best player fits into the mold of 6-6 swingman with a 40-inch vertical and acrobatic grace.

But much like creationism sufficed in explaining our origins before being supplanted by the theory of evolution, a new player is laying claim to being the world’s greatest basketball player. But because LeBron James plays nothing like Michael Jordan, it’s called into question NBA fans faith and created quite a stir.

Just read Henry Abbott’s argument on last season’s TrueHoop discussion:

He just doesn’t move like the best basketball player in the world. Put almost any part Kobe Bryant’s game in super slow motion, and you’ll see beauty. Every little part of his game is refined, perfected, tested and honed … Put LeBron James clips in super slow motion, and you’re liable to find things here and there that he could do a little better. That footwork, that release, that way that he walks a little bit like a duck.

This is where the debate gets heated. What, exactly, should the NBA’s greatest player look like?

Ungenerously listed at 6-8 and 250, Lebron’s physique is closer to Karl Malone than Michael Jordan’s. His style, while jaw-dropping, is more violent than creative, more raw than refined. As Abbott said, it lacks the level of artistry of Kobe Bryant, or his template, Jordan. It’s as if someone took a young Shawn Kemp and gave him Magic Johnson’s skills.

Bryant fits our comfort zone as the greatest difficult shot creator/make in the NBA. In this regard, he may even surpass Jordan. He also probably has the most expansive skill set in the history of the league. This is why when it comes to discussing last shots, most people would want Bryant.

But as Bill Walton use to say, never mistake activity for achievement. Or in this case, skill set for dominance.

Whereas Bryant might be able to execute an intricate series of feints and jabs before rising up for a jump shot over two defenders, LeBron James simply blows by the fastest perimeter defenders and overpowers the best front lines.

LeBron James does not have Kobe Bryant’s skill set, quite simply, because he does not need it. The NBA may be defined by creativity, but it’s ruled by dominance. For all his gifts, Kobe Bryant will never physically be able to do what LeBron can.

At heart, basketball is a simple game ruled by efficiency and intelligence. Bill Russell epitomized this, Magic Johnson and Larry Bird put their own unique flairs on it, and Jordan eventually embraced it and become the greatest player of all time.

Even the greatest two players of the post-Jordan era, Shaq and Tim Duncan, understood this. And despite being un-Jordanesque visually, James owns it in a package of skills and physically ability the world has never seen before.

For those fortunate enough to be in the AT&T Center the next two games, bare witness and let the debate continue.

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  • junierizzle

    All I know is JORDAN was 6-0 in the finals. Bulls would’ve won 8 straight if it wasn’t for the unfortunate passing of Jordan’s father.

    KOBE:4-2 in Finals or 1-1 depending on how you look at it.
    LBJ: 0-1 in Finals

  • agutierrez

    Interesting that so many bloggers on this site bow at the altar of numbers, yet say that Jordan was the best ever. If you go by numbers, Wilt makes everyone else pale by comparison: Career averages; 30.1 ppg, 22.9, rpg, 4.4 assistsper game. They didn’t keep blocks back then, but was considered to be at least Russell’s equal on defense. Didn’t get that many titles, but that was because he had the misfortune of playing on so many bad teams and back then there were no equalizing forces (salary caps). Scored 50+ points 118 times in his career. Not to mention how many times he “scored” off the court!

  • jeff

    I love the debate.

    I think we should revisit it after the next two games.

  • BALLHOG

    @ Bigballs…

    Been a while since I encountered a fan of the Iceman. I was a huge fan. Guy weighed 2 pounds soaking wet, yet scored at will.

    As for the Lebron/Kobe comparison, It depends on the standard of grading. Talent, skillset, rings, teamamtes, etc..can all be considered.

    Before last season, I would have taken Kobe all day long. But, since then, Lebron has improved his jumper, its all that he was missing. Now, he cannot be guarded.

    Lebron is the guy now. The King is that guy that is capable of playing all 5 positions on the floor. Defensive skills are flat out nasty, and his competitive fire is comparable to Jordan’s.

    As for your comment on Lakers tonight.

    Cant wait to see how Pop will prepare for this game. Luckily, Bynum is out. His absence improves our chances considerably.

    With Bynum in the Lakers lineup, we just cannot match up. Dont get me wrong, we still dont match up well with this team, even without Bynam.

    Hill will have his hands full with Fisher. Fisher doesnt have the foot speed to keep up with Hill, so he will try to intimidate him. We get to see if Hill has moxy 2nite.

    The most intresting match up will be Jefferson and Artest. Looking forward to it.

    Now, the question…Who guards Kobe? Putting Ginnobli on him will just send G to the bench early with fouls. Spurs cant afford long stints in this game without Ginnobli.

    Hill is just not big enough to play Kobe, so if coach uses the same starting line up that he has been using, who gets the first stab at Kobe?

    I sure that this coach will bring Bogans in and put him on Kobe. The outcome wont be pretty.

    Duncan should be able to stay with Gasol without picking up excessive fouls.

    Cant wait to see Bonner on Odom and Bogans trying to stay with Shannon Brown.

    As for Spurs, Hopefully Hill plays well and the home crowd energy helps, but without Parker, this will be a difficult win to get.

    As for the negative posts being directed at The Ballhog….Who are these newbies trying to bandwagon jump and get into the 48′s VIP?

    The Nerve…..

    I still say this new 2010 Popovich sucks!

    He will prove me right again tonight. The pucker factor will be high…..

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  • http://[email protected] mvg03

    Ive been saying it for at least 2 seasons now. Matt Bonner sucks!!!!!! Spurs fans r to faithful. The guy cant rebound the freakin ball. Did u see Atlanta get like 20 plus offensive rebounds. Why did pop have Matt in there so long. Ian can at least rebound. bonner is only serviceable when hes hitting his 3′s. If he misses one or 2 he should be benched for the rest of the game. Cant wait till the offseason n bonner is not resigned.

  • http://[email protected] mvg03

    BTW did i mention Bonner SUCKS!!!!!!

  • Jim Henderson

    From main post, on LeBron:

    “It’s as if someone took a young Shawn Kemp and gave him Magic Johnson’s skills.”

    Great description, and that’s what makes James “scary good”. And I know it’s hard to believe, but he’s only 25 yrs. old and has 15,000 points already! Are you kidding me?!

    Then, LeBron brings an all-around game that we haven’t seen since the big “O” (though Magic was also close). His passing, rebounding and “team” play are above where Kobe & MJ’s were at age 25. Lebron has been the focal point of his team since the beginning. Same was true for MJ, whereas Kobe had Shaq, which allowed him to win his first title earlier.

    That said, I can’t consider giving LeBron the “best player” moniker until he wins a title. That’s just my view; whether it’s fair or not is perhaps debatable. So I’d say it’s a toss-up between Kobe & Lebron at this point. Maybe this years results will tip the tide one way or another depending on which of them, if any, wins the title? We shall see. To be continued……

    andy
    March 24th, 2010 at 5:50 am

    AP
    March 24th, 2010 at 6:00 am

    ThatBigGuy
    March 24th, 2010 at 7:47 am

    Nice job, Andy, AP, ThatBigGuy!

    Jesse Blanchard
    March 24th, 2010 at 6:08 am

    Great post!

    Tyler
    March 24th, 2010 at 11:34 am

    Nice job on the Blair issue. Your points are so obvious it’s not worth me elaborating on. It’s unlikely the detractors will get it, though. Ho, hum…

  • Dingo

    Add Curtis Jerrells to the team:

    http://www.nba.com/spurs/news/spurs_sign_curtis_jerrells_100324.html

    I am a bit surprised!

  • zainn
  • Ian

    @BALLHOG - Oh so you and your fellow WE-NEED-TO-FIRE-POP bandwagon are setting the tone of this blog? Wow. Did I miss Graydon, Tim & Co. announcing that their blog will be a place where people can have endless rants about the same topic over and over? Did I miss them encouraging their readers to insult others?

    And for the love of god, do learn to write it simple - you don’t need to write an essay every time you leave a comment.

  • Jim Henderson

    The team probably thought he’s worth an audition with thoughts of next year. Hopefully he’ll get a look in some blow-out games. The fact is, we don’t have a lot of salary cap room to play around with next season (i.e., we still MUST sign a solid, tall, shot-blocking big next to Duncan), and we could be a bit thin at guard if we do not re-sign Mason, Bogans, and even Ginobli, so I expect they want to look for a “diamond in the rough” (ok, maybe even “emerald”), that we might have a good shot at signing to a contract for “cheap” in the off-season. They probably hope that they can feel comfortable signing one (at most two) of the following guys if they decide they need to move in that direction (signing young, “cheap” guys to fill out their roster next season): Cedric Jackson, Garrett Temple, & Jerrells.

  • Gregg Popovich

    Hey, all. Any suggestions for tonight’s game before I head out of the tunnel for warm-ups? (I’m looking at you BALLHOG, bigballs, et al.) I am thinking up putting Hairston on Kobe to start the fourth-thoughts? Again, more specific advice than “you suck, fix the personnel packages and rotation” would be appreciated.

    Cross your fingers!

    GP

  • BALLHOG

    @ Ian

    Move on guy….
    Great spot to post….Why poison it with useless verbal combat…..

    As for the Jerells signing,

    Jerrells has game. He is a gutsy player with a lil swagger for a youngster. Of the three most recent additions to the team, he would seem more likely to earn a roster spot next season. He could play now.

    Finally, a role player who can play.

    Coach might be starting to wake up a bit…

  • BALLHOG

    @ Greg Popovich

    Dang, you want in too? Rookies….Please see Jim Henderson for approval. Only JimJim can fire heat rounds at the Hog.

    However, You are a skilled stabber. I am wounded!

    Your attempted sarcasm actually made sense.

    Actually, Hairston is probably the only player on the current roster that could make Kobe work.

    But, Coach Popovich, who is second to only Phil Jackson as a coach, is far too wise to pull an idiotic move like that. LMAO

    Instead, he will do what any top 5 NBA coach would do. Put Keith “The Glove” Bogans on him, right?

    With Bogans’ superior defensive skill set, Pop would be insane not too, right?

    What do I know?

    Cant wait…..

  • bigballs

    @Gregg Popovich

    The post is true to Pop’s arrogance and egomaniac based approach to coaching.

    It is about time that you have asked for some guidance as you have been adrift all season - you are a hall of famer based on past accolades, but you I can grade you know higher than a “D” at this juncture of the season but could very just fail you. After all, it was you who stated that if you could not and did win with the 2009-2010 version of the Spurs, you should be fired - Quotes from very on words.

    1/3 of your squad has quit on you, so you don’t leave me much to work with.

    As for tonight’s game - DNP - Keith Bogus. Don’t even waste minutes on him.

    a) Bring Hairston off the bench as your first fill at the 2 spot for Gino and 5- to 7 minutes at the 3 spot for Jefferson - depending on Jeff is playing - may need Jeff to give me 35+ mins tonight. Dang Pop, this is what I mean, you don’t have a legit body on the bench to really get 3 spot minutes as you decided t let Haislip go. As a result, Jeff forced to play long minutes or have to go small at that spot.

    Can mix and match Mason and give him a few of Gino’s minutes, if he shooting well - play Mason a few more minutes. If not, can’t really play him against the Laker’s as he does not match up well.

    First 4 off the bench should be Blair, with Mahimi first up for McDyss at the 5 spot. Need 20+ minutes tonight from Blair and at least 15+ from Mahimi.

    The SpursNation will be watching tonight to see your personnel packages and rotations tonight.

  • bigballs

    Coach Pop’s current grade for this season is: D-

    Why? Because the Spurs were picked to contend this year and really challenge the Laker’s in the west. Instead, look at this mess of a team, a team struggling not to be in the draft lottery. A team with no identity, no purpose. Just a bunch of overpaid - under producing jocks with an overrated coach.

  • bduran

    agutierrz,

    For those of us who bow at the altar of numbers, Jordan is king. So far no one has done what he as done statistically (at least since they started keeping complete data, so Wilt may have better).

    bruin,

    Jordan put up better numbers than Lebron under Phil Jackson, so that’s not the whole story. Also, if you want more fair comparisons you should look at wages of wins WP48. Those are based on the same box score statistics but adjusted by position to rule out things like it’s easier to rebound from the 3 vs the 2 etc. In general raw production is higher the closer you get to the basket simply because shots are easier and you get more rebounds. Of course WP48 tells a similar story. Jordan>Lebron>Kobe.

    Rings do matter but to me the say less than the numbers, which is why I brought up the extreme of Horry’s 7 vs Jordan’s 6 (clearly everyone knows Jordan is better). Duncan has 4 rings, but he’s also had great talent around him. Kobe has only won with great talent around him. Lebron has had terrible talent around him until recently, so it’s not a fair comparison.

    I think another example of this is the Garnett vs. Duncan argument. Most people claim Duncan as the better PF because of his rings, but for most of his career Garnett played on really bad teams. Clearly rings do not tell the tale in this case so where do you turn? When making the (likely pointless) attempt to rate great players I like unbiased production metrics such as WP48, although I guess it does remove the fun of heated debate if we all say “yep, he’s .053 higher WP48, he’s better”.

  • Ronald

    @Jim Henderson

    I think you have to view Jame’s numbers in light of the minutes he has played. Kobe has played:- 866 Games and a total of 37099 minutes whilst James has played 541 games and a total of 21872 minutes.

    And honestly, it’s a bit unfair to compare James and Bryant at their current state when James is at his peak of his game and Bryant is at the twighlight of his career (which is extremely worrisome for James as you are supposed to iron out the wrinkles of your game when you hit your peak i.e Jordan’s mid-range game, knowledge on when to score/pass). Maybe, the whole question of who is better would be better put in a career perspective when both James and Bryant are retired.

  • Jim Henderson

    Ronald
    March 25th, 2010 at 5:01 am

    “I think you have to view Jame’s numbers in light of the minutes he has played. Kobe has played:- 866 Games and a total of 37099 minutes whilst James has played 541 games and a total of 21872 minutes.”

    How does this relate to my post? What is your point, here?

    “And honestly, it’s a bit unfair to compare James and Bryant at their current state when James is at his peak of his game and Bryant is at the twighlight of his career…….”

    Well, I’m not sure what you mean by “unfair”. I wasn’t comparing them “now”. I’m comparing them for their careers up to this point. So actually James is at a disadvantage in this regard (not had sufficient time to win a title), not Bryant.

    And furthermore, here are some stats based on 36 mpg:

    James:

    24.8 ppg, 47.5 FG%, 33.1 (3FG%), 6.2 apg, 6.3 rpg, 1.6 spg, .8 bpg

    Bryant:

    24.9 ppg, 45.5 FG%, 34 (3FG%), 4.6 apg, 5.2 rpg, 1.5 spg, .5 bpg

    Also, while Bryant may not be at peak anymore (James may not be either - may be still on way up!), his drop off is very minimal at this point.

    For example, here are his main stats for this year (again, based on 36 mpg):

    25.5 ppg, 46.1 FG%, 4.6 apg., 4.9 rpg, 1.5 spg

    So, in looking at this years numbers, and then his numbers over his 14 year career:

    - he’s only had 2 years in career +27 ppg
    - 3 years +47% FG
    - 3 years +5 apg
    - 3 years +5.5 rpg
    - 2 years +1.6 spg

    As you can see, drop-off is quite minimal. He’s still pretty close to his prime in terms of numbers. When including intangibles, he’s even closer.

    ……..”(which is extremely worrisome for James as you are supposed to iron out the wrinkles of your game when you hit your peak i.e Jordan’s mid-range game, knowledge on when to score/pass)…….”

    If you’re suggesting James still has some “meaningful” weaknesses to his game that he hasn’t yet “ironed” out at the ripe old age of 25, I’m not sure what those are. Would you like to describe them for me?

    “Maybe, the whole question of who is better would be better put in a career perspective when both James and Bryant are retired.”

    Of course, this is true, but this it was not what the main post attempted to stimulate, obviously.

  • Vahagn Mkhikian

    Laker fan talking about the Kobe / Lebron debate.:

    Lebron’s stats are ridiculous. The problem is they have ALWAYS been ridiculous. Lebron’s stats in 2006 were better than ANY SEASON between 1991-1998 that Jordan had. Jordan wasn’t getting 7 or 8 rebs and dishing out 7 or 8 assists during the 90′s but if I ask you who you would take Lebron in 2006 (even in 2009) or Jordan in 1991-1997 I think I would know the answer.

    What’s interesting to me is that STATS keep mentioning Lebron as the better player but we can all agree that the Rockets have some AMAZING secret stats that no one knows about yet Shane Battier, who famously gets reports on the players he’s guarding says time and time again that Kobe’s the best player in the NBA.

    I find a general trend. Nerds say Lebron’s better, actual ball players and coaches say Kobe’s better. Lebron MAY BE BETTER, his skill set is insane, his athletic ability is through the roof, but the stats argument doesn’t matter. Big Z Was an all star in 2007 when they got to the finals, when the Lakers got to the finals in 2008 Pau wasn’t an all star. It’s not Kobe’s fault all Mo Williams and big Z are asked to do in Cleveland is catch and shoot jumpers. The entire Cavs team PLAYS TO LEBRON’S strengths. Big Z should be posting up instead of setting screens 30 feet from the basket. as an efficient low post scorer and 80% FT shooter he should do that but that would clog up the lane for Lebron. That is why Lebron’s scoring numbers go up whenever Shaq gets injured.

    I think Lebron is a phenomenal player, and maybe even the best, but no way do I worry about stats. Kobe leads his team in assists every season, if he gets less than Lebron it’s only because he doesn’t dominate the ball on every possession and plays off the ball.

    I have yet to find Lebron fans who don’t PERSONALLY DISLIKE Kobe. Because if they do, they’re appearing objective using stats to cover up their subjectivity. Of course asking them if Lebron is better than Magic in 85 or Jordan in 92 although be statistically superior will result in a NO, but somehow he’s better than Kobe? Does anyone doubt Kobe could lead the league in scoring anytime he wanted to? watching the passes he was making last night in the 3rd quarter does anyone doubt his passing ability is pretty close up there with D Wade or Lebron??

    Lebron is amazing but its not his stats that matter, those simple box xcore stats (as well as PER) don’t mean much. If they did GM’s wouldn’t consistently choose Kobe to shoot the last shot when he’s shooting 29% in those situations or call Kobe the best on ball defender (as they did again this year) when he’s not in the top 10 in steals or blocks.

    Lebron plays playground basketball, Kobe plays system surgical basketball. Lebron is more consistent due to Kobe’s injuries this year, and if you had to make a case for Lebron it would be his consistency that wins over Kobe rather than his RPG and APG numbers.

  • Jim Henderson

    Vahagn Mkhikian
    March 25th, 2010 at 2:26 pm

    Nice post. Thanks for being honest that you’re a Laker/Kobe fan. In other words, you’re not trying to cover that you have a clear bias on the issue. That said, you do at least make a good effort at being as objective as you can on the matter, and in fact make some solid points in your assessment of Kobe & Lebron, in terms of their respective impact in the system they play in.

    Of course, one should NEVER look at stats in a vacuum, and I know you attempted to downplay the “numbers”, but I’m sure you also realize that considering “numbers” is not meaningless as a tool for assessing & documenting how productive a player is during his minutes on the court. In particular, if the numbers indicate broad-based productivity it suggests the player’s impact on his team is greater, and probably suggests that the player is generally less selfish, certainly so as a scorer. And after all, the bottom line is: does the player make his teammates better, and does the “team” have considerable success winning “big” games against other elite competition.

    By that criteria, in my view the jury’s still out on who is better, Kobe or LeBron. Kobe’s had Shaq (one of the most dominant players to ever play the game), and has had more time to win titles. That said, in my view, Lebron has enough talent to win a title this year and/or next year. Until LeBron wins at least two titles, if I had to choose, I would give the edge to Kobe. Should he reach that height, or more, than we’ll see.

    “The entire Cavs team PLAYS TO LEBRON’S strengths.”

    That’s true, but all teams play to the strengths of their star players.

    P.S. I do not dislike Kobe. I have a lot of respect for his talent & accomplishments.

  • Cody Steffen

    I find it very odd that everyone still refers to Lebron as raw. The guy has improved multiple aspects of his game the last three seasons. His three point shooting, post game, and free throw shooting have all seen relatively significant improvements. He’s around the peak of his athleticism but his will and mind for the game are also clearly exceptional. I’m not even comparing him to Kobe, it’s just obvious that his game is getting pretty damn well-rounded

  • Cody Steffen

    Also, I get that the Lebron/Kobe debate is heated, but it’s worth noting a key difference between it and the creationism/evolution debate: Kobe and Lebron are both rational, reasonable arguments that can be based on evidence for either of them. I mean, we all might have our opinions about Lebron or Kobe, but we can probably universally agree that the other side of the argument certainly has some credibility.

  • Jim Henderson

    Good points, Cody!

  • Cody Steffen

    Thanks, friend.

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