Sunday, November 15th, 2009...9:14 pm
Implications from the Spurs’ Final Five
You know what they say about a team’s final five being more important than its starting five. Well, that’s all true. In a perfect world, one free of foul trouble and injury concerns, a coach finishes the game with his best five players on the floor.
Through 8 games, George Hill is unquestionably the Spurs’ 5th best player, alongside Tim Duncan, Richard Jefferson, Manu Ginobili and Tony Parker. And he did finish the game in the loss against Oklahoma City, although it was because Coach Popovich elected not to play a gimpy Manu Ginobili in the final quarter. Hill was the Spurs’ best player down the stretch.
George Hill, Perimeter Stopper
And he had the best overall performance (I know, Tim Duncan apologist, you have a case) of any Spur, too. George Hill guarded Kevin Durant for a significant chunk of the game, giving up a half a foot in height, but he more than held his own against the superstar wing. Wayne Vore of PtR put it this way:
Sir HotBod [Hill nickname] played some serious-ass lockdown defense on Durant. Cubits [another Hill nickname] was phenomenal defensively against KD. He denied, he challenged, he worked early in the possession. He was just awesome. Nothing I can say can capture how well he played Durant.
The Oklahoma City Thunder make it a habit to trounce the Spurs, but this was the most effective defense anyone in Silver and Black has ever played against KD. Even Bruce Bowen struggled mightily during his late career battles against Durant. So if there is something to take away from the loss, it’s that George Hill is capable of world class defense. As Hill said after the game, “If [Durant] makes shots, he makes shots. My job is just to try to make it tough.” Sounds a lot like Bruce Bowen, doesn’t it?
Pop’s postgame interview was basically, “Is Manu Ginobili okay?” and variations on “How ’bout that George Hill?” Popovich acknowledged what we all saw-it’s increasingly difficult to keep George Hill off the floor. Popovich praised Hill’s play, and confirmed that he likes “he and Tony together.”
You can see where I’m going with this, but I wanted to justify the question before asking it. What is San Antonio’s final five?
Manu Ginobili, No Brainer
It’s too early in the season to know a definitive answer to this question, but whatever the answer, it’s not without a host of implications. I’m confident the answer will involve Manu Ginobili. And that’s the point where things get all knotted.
Popovich is taking the cautious route by not playing Ginobili because of a tight hamstring. But Manu Ginobili is still an all-world talent that has performed at a high level this season. No matter how you measure it, Manu Ginobili is one of the best 5 shooting guards in basketball. It goes without question that when healthy, he finishes games for San Antonio. He is, according to some studies, the best clutch shooter in basketball. He’s Manu Ginobili.
Ginobili is also San Antonio’s best pure passer. When he comes into the game, the offense starts to hum as each and every worker bee gets in on the honey-making action. Against the Thunder, he delivered six assists in 18 minutes. It’s increasingly common for Ginobili to make his most distinguished mark on a game with his passing.
Forced Into Small Ball
If the Spurs intend to finish games with their best five players on the court, they’ll be playing small ball in the final minutes of games: Parker, Ginobili, Hill, Jefferson, and Duncan. San Antonio’s best five is a problematic closing unit because of their lack of rebounding and size. The only realistic alternative is to play Antonio McDyess instead of Hill. The problem, of course, is that the Spurs would not have their best perimeter defender-George Hill-on the court during a game’s final minutes. But they would have rebounding, which they’ve sorely lacked during key stretches of this season.
Ugh. How will they approach this tricky development? Situationally, methinks.
The situational approach, however, pins the the Spurs between the horns of a dilemma. They must choose between perimeter defense and interior defense. And, of course, it puts the other team in a position of dictating to San Antonio whether it will play small or big. It’s always better to be the team forcing that issue.
Other Considerations: Finding Effective Defensive Units
The Spurs’ offense is ranked fourth in the league, with an efficiency of 108.9. This is remarkable considering the lack of cohesion with which the team is currently playing, and the fact that Parker, Duncan, and Ginobili have missed time because of injury. The offense will get better as the season progresses. Naysayers will scoff, but the Spurs have one of the most powerful offenses in basketball. By every statistical account, San Antonio needs to improve its defense.
Let’s approach this as if we were piecing together a puzzle. I’ve separated the frame from the interior pieces, and we have an early sense of the basic picture. How might the rest of the puzzle snap together? And what pieces slipped in by mistake? Are there pieces that ultimately won’t fit?
My sense of the early picture is that Gregg Popovich must go to his bench for defense. This means George Hill needs to play more, but that’s only a start. It’s not a full answer.
Hill is currently averaging 27 minutes a game, but he’d benefit the team if his minutes were north of 30. If end of the game minutes are not guaranteed-they’re not necessarily available, even if they’re deserved-then starting George Hill at shooting guard is the next best possibility. Starting George Hill is the easiest way-albeit only as a partial corrective- for the Spurs to address their defensive concerns.
Keith Bogans, Michael Finley and Roger Mason Jr.
But what does this mean for Keith Bogans?
Bogans has started four games for the Spurs this season, playing an average of 23 minutes in those games. He’s shown the ability to provide offense and, at times, terrific defense, but adjusted plus/minus data indicates the team is better with Hill on the court rather than Bogans. Of course, APM is more reliable with a greater sample size. Nevertheless, giving Hill some or all of Bogans’ minutes would seem appropriate.
Perhaps the answer is to give Bogans minutes behind Jefferson, leaving the shooting guard minutes entirely to Hill and Ginobili. But much to my surprise, the Spurs have had a better APM with both Finley and Mason Jr. on the court as opposed to Bogans. This is probably an issue with sample size, because according to my eyes Bogans has dramatically outplayed Finley and Mason Jr. this season. This is one of those check back after 20 games situations.
The point, however, is that giving George Hill more minutes at shooting guard is a must, while deciding how to divide the minutes behind Jefferson is an on-going, indirect consideration.
In the short term, Coach Popovich should remove one of Finley, Bogans or Mason Jr. from the rotation. And again, it’s not necessarily because of poor play, it’s because George Hill deserves more burn.
The Final Five
The argument, then, is this: since the Spurs will not always be capable of closing games with their best five players on the court, they need to find more more minutes for those players in the first 45 minutes. Or, at least, one of those players.
The important variable in this discussion is George Hill. Tony Parker, Manu Ginobili, Richard Jefferson and Tim Duncan are settled into the rotation. One of the Spurs’ bench players’ role will have to be reduced, reassigned, or eliminated to make more room for Hill. The question is who?
Popovich can decide between whether to close games with Antonio McDyess and George Hill based on the opponent. As much as I’d like George Hill on the floor against, say, Kobe Bryant in a game’s final minutes, playing Tim Duncan against the two-headed monster of Andrew Bynum-Pau Gasol is not a comforting option.
It’s an interesting season so far. The remade Spurs are full of riddles with many answers still forthcoming. But in this case, George Hill is forcing some dominoes to drop. Increasing his role is the team’s next important step toward surefire contention. Figuring out the minutes behind Richard Jefferson and improving the team’s defense, especially its interior defense, are the still-under-consideration items on the agenda. In this way, the loss to Oklahoma City provided a helpful moment of clarity.
77 Comments
November 15th, 2009 at 9:42 pm
Durant is 6’9, or 6’10 according to some sources. So with Hill’s 6’2 height, it’s more than a half-foot size difference (seven inches to be precise)… and yes Hill nonetheless did an amazing job making Durant’s offence difficult. Has Spurs finally found the solution against Durant and other athletic wings that tortured the Spurs’ defence in the past, perhaps? I, for one, would not mind seeing him in the final minutes.
November 15th, 2009 at 9:58 pm
Great article. After watching the game, I came to a similar conclusion in my recap: George Hill should be starting with Parker. It’s the easiest way to get him minutes at this point.
I’d also like to see Mason, Jr. getting more minutes. I know he’s in a shooting slump, but I’ve actually been encouraged with what I’ve seen from his all-around game this season, and I have every confidence that he’ll break out of his slump; he’s too good of a shooter not to.
November 15th, 2009 at 9:59 pm
wow, what a GREAT article! you opened my eyes, lol i was so proud of george yesterday. Isaw him on durant and i was really excited, but even I was shocked when durant went cold, or was forced to turn it over. unbelievable. Im loving this idea, however who becomes our back up point guard? i want to say mason so he can get his shot back but the fan in me is saying manu. so here it goes:
starting 5: Bench:
tony 1 manu 1
hill 2 mason 2
R.Jefferson 3 bogans 3
A.Dice 4 or 5 blair 4
tim 4or5 bonner 5
i like bogans at the 3 to help blair defend the post. and if bonner isnt scoring well, then we sub ratliff for bonner and rely on perimeter shooting and driving from manu. i think once they establish whos starting and whos coming off the bench, the majority of our players will get in rhythm. again great article.
November 15th, 2009 at 10:26 pm
One thought that keeps coming to me (I keep dismissing it out of hand, but it sneaks back in through a back window). Could George Hill play well enough to get Parker traded?
For the most part, I don’t think so. Manu’s injury history is a little too iffy to part with such a key piece of our core. Moreover, Hill is still fairly inexperienced, whereas Parker has been through all the battles for us.
On the other hand, if we get to January or February and the trade deadline is approaching, if the personnel issues that Tim describes are still an issue (and they could very well be), would our “all in, let’s do this now” mindset force us towards parting with Parker?
As I said, I keep dismissing this and saying, “No way.” But it keeps niggling at the back of my brain. Guess we’ll see.
November 15th, 2009 at 10:39 pm
But then one can make the argument that Manu/Hill are the co-6th men coming off the bench. Spurs 1st and 2nd units have the potential to be super strong.
A lot depends upon how quickly RJ and McDyess get fully up to speed, so that Pop can decide on how to distribute minutes.
I like Hill in the starting lineup, but then Bogans starting seems to make more sense. I guess tis is a good problem to have, when there is so much talent that we are thinking of ways to distribute that part, rather than so little like last season.
November 15th, 2009 at 11:49 pm
I’m sitting here reading the blog and one question keeps popping into my head. “Why is Tim shooting 18 to 20 foot jump shots from the top of the key and he can’t make free throws”? Anyways I had to get that off my mind before I got started on this new entry. I’m going to attack this final five from several directions:
The Obvious Line-Up
1. Tony Parker- love his ability to make everyone better but will he? Will he become that aggressive willing passer like stockton or magic? He has that type of ability with the gift of B-L-A-Z-I-N-G speed. He really could be a Hall Of Famer before it’s all said and done!!!
2. Manu (Great Players go by one name)
3. Richard J.
4. Antonio McDyess
5. Timmy
the problem with this line-up is Tony, Manu, and Tim are all great players with the ball in their hands. But Tony dominates the ball a lot eliminating the overall efficiency of this group (for right now).
THE DEFENSE WINS CHAMPIONSHIPS Line-Up against the Lakers and Celtics
1.(or pg) George Hill- Long arms makes him really good defender
2.(or sg) Keith Bogans- can guard both guard positions if needed
3.(or sf) Richard Jefferson- he can guard some of those jump shooting/ scoring PF
4.(or pf) Antonio McDyess- still looks like he can move those old dogs
5.(or center) Tim- Still solid
Against everybody else move Jefferson to the 4 spot and put Manu at the 3
My Right Now Line-Up
pg Hill
sg Manu
sf Jefferson
pf Tim
C McDyess
Reserves
Tony Parker
Bogans
Finley-Mason
Blair- Needs to get to his defensive rotation faster
Bonner-Ratliff
Now let me expalin before everybody go off…..It’s obvious Tim is not right at this time in the season, but the threat of Tim says enough. McDyess is a dread eye shooter great in pick and pop and drive and kick situations. Manu is the facilitator of this group and is a willing passer clutch shooter and gets to the line and make free-throws, he’ll make Jefferson and Hill better. Oh and this group can guard also.
That fact is…. this team needs time to gel. this was fun….
November 16th, 2009 at 12:21 am
^Even though Pop loves Parker, I really can’t see him taking Hill over him (even if Parker is crap compared to Hill relatively speaking).
And Parker will never be like CP3/Stockton/etc.
November 16th, 2009 at 3:15 am
Just thinking, why not leave Jefferson out of the lineup late on? Richard strikes me as a consistent player, but not someone who raises his game in the clutch.
November 16th, 2009 at 4:19 am
One thing you didn’t mention is the possibility of sitting RJ and playing Hill and Dice together (if the matchup is right… but can Manu slow Odom down?), which should be a consideration. I think all three scenarios will be trialled over the next 40 games, and then we’ll better be able to judge how the team should finish.
November 16th, 2009 at 5:55 am
Kb
im sure alot of people are thinking the same thing, i wonder how parker would take that news. theres so many options its almost a pain in the ass, but im sure pop wont hesitate on something that works consistently. afterall holts money is kind of on the line.
November 16th, 2009 at 6:22 am
I think KB hits the nail on the head. The four “constants” on the final five should be Manu, Hill, RJ and Timmy. Tony and Antonio could be used situationally. While we all love Tony, by now we know that he is not a distributor-first point guard, he doesn’t have great court vision (a la Manu), he’s not a consistent defender, he has a tendency, particularly at the end of ball games, to try and do it all himself, and his free throw shooting in the clutch is suspect. We have to hope that the huge drop off in RJ’s production (and even his on court persona) with TP back in the line-up was an aberration. But there can be little doubt that our chances of going far this year are closely tied to his comfort with his teammates.
November 16th, 2009 at 6:43 am
KB,
You are onto something. The only problem is that I dont think Parker would take the benching in a good way. I think Pop needs to split the “Big 4″ in two groups of two at all time and find which pairs fit better with each other.
The argument for benching Parker though is that he can clearly get his own shot whenever the paint is not clogged. In this sense I would argue for this (depending on how Ratliff improves in the next couple of weeks):
Starting: Manu, Hill, RJ, Duncan and Ratliff
Reserves: Tony, Mason, Finley/Bogans, Bonner and McDyess.
In this sense Manu will be creating and I envision a lot of back an forth passes from Duncan to perimeter shooters/slashers in the starting lineup. Ratliff will help defending the paint and make a dent on rebounding.
In reserves we will force the opposing team to guard the three point line, giving ample space for Tony to dominate the paint. Only problem is that McDyess would be by himself collecting rebounds and any three point misses from the Spurs will undoubtedly conclude in defensive rebounds for the opposing team.
November 16th, 2009 at 7:01 am
I’ve got Two important points to make:
First off,
Tony is taking A LOT of heat on here… and this is a GOOD thing.
Jump in the Delorean(think Doc Brown) and let’s head back to last season..
Manu’s hurt, Tim’s hurt. Tony is our only reliable scorer.
Pop - “Tony, you are going to have to carry us offensively. Our next best scorer is… we don’t have a next best scorer!”
Tony - “Oui Oui Poppi. I will score the basket!”
The rest is history: Tony becomes a top 5 guard becoming the leader of an offensively challenged team and has people throwing his name into MVP conversations.
The new season rolls around and bloggers start to write things like “This is Tony’s team now, the Spurs will build around Tony” (sorry 48MOH!)
Well, here we are. We have a revamped team from last season with TONS of firepower.
The point is: We don’t need Tony Parker from last season. We need a new Tony Parker. A player who busts his tail on D, a guy who looks to get others involved, a point guard who doesn’t worry about scoring.
We don’t NEED Tony Parker to average 20 points to win ball games. We need Tony to do the little things, like sacrifice himself for the betterment of the team (this should be called “pulling a Ginobili”).
Tony please pull a Ginobili.
November 16th, 2009 at 7:21 am
I agree with all, even though I like Tony Parker, we need to go with what makes more sense. Tony isn’t a great distributor and neither is Hill, so you get the same from each, but Hill can play very good defense, is more athletic an can shoot the 3 with about 80% accuracy so far this year, Tony is better getting to the basket, but Hill is the better shooter. This is a tough decision, I’m not sure what I would do exactly…. Pop?? get in here and answer these questions
If either Tony or Hill becomes a good passer and can make their teammates better by providing assists, then they get my vote… for now it is a close battle… but Hill is definitely getting a lot of attention
November 16th, 2009 at 7:22 am
(split into two b/c I hate long posts)
Second point,
Echoing some thoughts here, GEORGE HILL IS A BEAST. Bruce Bowen 2.0 looks like a miniature version of Scottie Pippen (I don’t think i’m reaching here).
George Hill needs minutes. Lots of them! Playing Hill makes the most sense for one reason in particular : Kobe Bryant.
Watching George and his abilities I have no doubt that he could make Kobe Bryant’s life very difficult.
I’m not saying “Kobe-Stopper” (Ruben Patterson, you are a joke), but i’m saying making Kobe work his tail off to get points.
I want George Hill to have Bruce Bowen’s career assignment: Bother Kobe Bryant.
The Lakers are a great team with tons of weapons, but you know what happens when someone plays Kobe hard?
Kobe tries to PROVE to everyone that that person can’t guard him. Luckily, most of the time that person CAN’T guard him.
This is how much faith I have in George Hill, he could do a great job making Kobe work.
Do you know what happens when someone challenges Kobe defensively?
Kobe kicks into ‘eff you competitive mode, forgets about his teammates and ends up putting up 30+ shots. This is a GOOD thing, unless you’re Doug Christie.
I WANT Kobe to try and beat us. I am more worried about Bynum & Gasol.
I know if we unleash Georgie Pippen on Kobe, those selfish tendencies of years past will surface.
If we beat L.A., we can beat anyone.
November 16th, 2009 at 9:11 am
For the final five against the Lakers, I would prefer to bench RJ and have Tony, Hill, Manu, Duncan, and Dice on the floor.
After RJ, the next on the benching list would be Tony. Tony is a terrific scorer and incredibly important to this team’s success, but he isn’t clutch and his defense is mediocre at best.
Manu and Duncan are the only ones who MUST be on the floor at the end of the game, no matter what.
November 16th, 2009 at 9:17 am
I didn’t get to watch this game unfortunately. I did get to see the first few games with Parker playing and he looks hesitant. I think the problem at the moment is too many chiefs and not enough indians.
RJ seems tentative to do anything that will upset the apple cart. When Tim and Tony went out with injuries, he realized he had to step up and did so in a huge way, unfortunately when those two came back, he’s unsure what his role is.
Tony seems to be the same way. Against the Bulls he seemed to refuse to go into the paint. I can’t remember how many points he finished with, but in the first half he either passively watched the game unfold, or he went against the Bulls Lebron style.
One thing to remember, and I know this isn’t a good excuse, is that we had no training camp with Timmy and Manu syncing with Tony. Because of the injuries and out of shapeness it’ll take a little longer for this team to gel. I have faith that Pop can figure it out.
November 16th, 2009 at 9:46 am
@all: Benching Tony Parker in favor of George Hill is insane! George Hill looks good, but does he look that good. Parker is one the best point guards in the league, an impossible guard, and a former Finals MVP. I’m saying promote him to the starting line up, not to the team’s leading alpha dog.
November 16th, 2009 at 9:55 am
on a different note, Timmy looked awesome and his dunks were sweet, its been a while you know…
November 16th, 2009 at 10:23 am
Love the take and feedback.
Here is my idea as far as rotation
starters: Parker, Hill, Jefferson, Blair, Duncan
second unit: Hill, Manu, Bogans, Dice, Blair
third unit: Parker, Hill, Jefferson, Duncan, Bonner
smaller roles/no role/situational play: Mason, Bonner, Ratliff, Fin
November 16th, 2009 at 10:38 am
Tim Duncan looks like Shaq against the pick and roll. This led to numerous open shots and a big Durant dunk. He also camps in the lane while shooters like Kristic line up wide-open 18 footers. Until this changes (after the All-Star break?) the Spurs defense will struggle.
Bogans completely blew a couple fast breaks Saturday, running to his man instead of playing the situation. This created Harden’s explosive quarter-ending dunk in the third.
Hill was impressive against Durant, but what about players who weigh more than 180? You can’t push Kobe (or Carmelo, etc.) around like that.
Tony’s defense has regressed. First year I’ve ever seen him regress in any category. Too much Euroball this summer? The good news is I’m very confident he can guard Fisher, who recently posted a 0-0-0 in 34 minutes!
I’m concerned that Sefalosha shut RJ down. Of course it didn’t help that when RJ did manage to power past the guy he ran straight into into Timmy or Bonner. Play over.
A lot of this will be solved in time. The harder problem to solve is too many good players whose games are not complementary.
November 16th, 2009 at 10:38 am
Regarding RJ, we seem to be missing something here. All of us were perplexed by his tentativeness and lack of production UNTIL Tony went down. Suddenly, in the ensuing two games he goes crazy, scoring in every way imaginable. Coincidence? I don’t think so. In those two games, while Hill was ostensibly playing the point, it was Manu who was the principal ball handler and distributor. Manu has always shown himself to do whatever it takes to win, with little or no regard for how many points he gets. Tony has seldom shown the same inclination. That doesn’t make him lesser of a player or trade bait, it just makes him different. I think the answer to our hopes for this season rests on whether Tony can be made to adjust his game to his new weapons, recognizing that it will likely mean less individual attention to him.
November 16th, 2009 at 11:10 am
Almost without fail, so long as the match-up dictated so, I’d finish with McDyess.
I’m starting to think that against the Lakers, assuming they finish with Gasol-Odom (which they have since Gasol arrived), we will probably see the seemingly small-ball obsessed Pop play Parker on Fisher, either Hill or Bogans on Bryant, Ginobili on Artest, Jefferson on Odom and Duncan on Gasol. The Spurs will likely get destroyed defensively (mainly in the post) in this alignment.
November 16th, 2009 at 11:22 am
A possible solution could be to divide the big four.
Have the starters be as this
Parker
Mason
Bogans
Duncan
Dice or Bonner
Bench.
Hill
Manu
Jefferson
Blair
Ratliff or Bonner
Last season when it was just Parker and Duncan playing, the team was doing fine together as a unit. Stay with the same unit for the starters. The trouble last year was no bench. This year that’s not an issue. Parker and Duncan can score on their own, and pass well out of the double team, so the other 3 get their 3′s. Makes sense.
And this past week, we saw how the team works without TP and TD not playing, and it was working alright. RJ lead the scoring, and Manu got the team working together.
But for the final mins of a game.
Stay with TD, Hill, Manu, RJ, Dice.
I would push splitting the big four.
This works with every team except for Boston and LA.
Pierce might be too big for Hill or Bogans, which then RJ would probably defend him, and throw this out the window.
Odom provides the same problem.
Unless the spurs get the already traded Capt. Jack, then this is gonna be hard to beat those teams.
November 16th, 2009 at 11:48 am
The key to stop the Lakers is to turn Kobe into a volume shooter which I definitely think Georgie Pippen can do. Last time I checked, Bruce did a pretty good job even though he was a skinny guy (Hill won’t have as much success against the Melo/Pierce’s of the world).
I wouldn’t put too much stock into RJ having trouble against Sefalosha.. that kid can play! He did an admirable job on Kobe the other night. I wish he was a Spur.
November 16th, 2009 at 11:49 am
Tim,
I agree benching Parker in favor of Hill is insane, but IF Tony is struggling and we need the defense I would not fault Pop for it.
November 16th, 2009 at 11:54 am
I think the best solution would be to trade for emeka okafor by trading bonner, mason, and mahinmi/hairston. This would open up minutes for mahinmi or hairston on our roster and also help dice get more minutes. I know bonner has been working hard this season, but I guarabtee you it will not be consistent.
November 16th, 2009 at 11:58 am
So far my favorite line up is when Hill, Ginobili, and RJ are together. I’ve noticed a lack of chemistry between RJ and TP, where when together, the offense seems to be too clustered and neither Parker or Jefferson get great shots off. On the defensive end, Parker isn’t the defensive force that Hill is. I think the larger question, which doesn’t need to be answered yet, is will the Spurs ultimately keep Hill over Parker when it comes time to rebuild.
November 16th, 2009 at 1:19 pm
trading for Okafor would be nuts. He is good on offense, but we dont need more offensive help. He isnt a defensive liability, but he is only a grade above Bonner. I still dont think trading for Camby would be worth it. Duncan is still getting into shape. The D may not be at the level it used to be, but when he gets into shape it will be good enough. We will have a chance to beat anyone- we wont dominate, but we are going to be in every game, and with the firepower we have i like our odds.
November 16th, 2009 at 1:27 pm
WOW.
8 games into the season, and 75% of Spurs fans are calling for Parker’s benching? For George Hill? Ridiculous. You don’t switch an IN HIS PRIME All-Star and Finals MVP for a second year player who struggled his whole rookie year. Don’t talk to me about potential when you have a known quantity that is in the top 5 at his position and is in his prime.
No one here can give a reasonable argument for a Hill/Parker switch. None.
November 16th, 2009 at 1:31 pm
I’m going to agree with Tim here in proclaiming all of you nucking futs.
George Hill has made remarkable improvements in one offseason, but calling him Scottie Pippen is like calling DeJuan Blair Charles Barkley. It’s insane. And I love George Hill.
That being said, Tony Parker is a top three point guard, behind Paul but right there with Williams. He’s a star and former Finals MVP. He also is the teams greatest offensive weapon PROVIDED you can provide him with spacing (i.e., hit open shots).
For all the talk about ball movement and offensive flow, you’re really not watching the games. If you want a simple breakdown here it is:
Spurs vs. Hornets: Parker leads the team with 17 pts and 6 assists in a blowout win. Bonner shots 3-6 from three and 4-9 overall. Finley shoots 2-4 on threes, 4-6 overall. The team shoots 37.5% from deep.
Spurs vs. Bulls. Parker scores 8 pts and 3 assists but is shutout in the second half. The team shoots a horrid 19% from threes. No lineup features ball movement as Manu leads the team with 4 assists. Bonner 1-4, Finley 1-3.
Spurs vs. Kings: Parker again leads team with 24 pts and 7 assists. The team shoots 50% from distance and Bonner and Finley go a combined 2-4.
Spurs vs. Jazz: Parker leads the team in points (24) and assists (3). The team shoots 37.5 % from deep but is killed defensively. And steals are 9-4 Jazz.
Spurs vs. Blazers: Parker only plays 11 minutes before injury. The team shoots only 19% from three and totals 16 assists.
Spurs vs. Raptors. No Parker. Team shoots 50% from three and has 28 assists.
Spurs vs. Dallas: No Parker. Spurs shoots 41% from three, starters a combined 7-15.
Spurs vs. Thunder: 16.7%. Parker struggles to get rythm early on. Finishes OKAY. Team struggles in second half as Spurs miss jumpers until late in the Fourth Quarter.
The Lesson: The Spurs are constructed in a manner that we rely on the three-pointer far too much. Our spacing and ball movement comes from our three-point shooting, not the other way around.
Neither Duncan nor Parker are particularly explosive so they need room to work. They are gauranteed a double team and neither one is selfish, so the team gets open looks. Watch the tape. If the team hits then Duncan or Tony usually shoot something like 11-16, because you can’t guard them one on one. When ALL of our shooters are cold, you get games like the other night and a whole bunch of you making stupid decisions like benching or trading Tony Parker.
November 16th, 2009 at 1:46 pm
Ok, Im right with Varner on this one. No offense to any of ya’lls analysis, but Parker is not chopped liver here guys. Man is a all-star and impossible to guard off the dribble. Dont get me wrong, Im loving what george hill is bringing to the table but he does not have the pedigree that tony does. Yes he has looked a bit sluggish at the beginning of the season but lets not forget that he was carrying France on his back in the European tourney this summer. Be patient.
Bonner should be starting at this point in time. He has been hustling, shooting, playing d. Hell he even had a dunk or two. Truth is, he knows our system, Timmy already knows where he sets up when he’s on the block, its the right choice.
I would like the second squad to be something like this. Manu, Mason, Blair, Dice and Jefferson. My reasoning is the PHENOMENAL two man game that Manu and Jefferson played while tony and tim were out. They were cutting off of blair and dice screens and even running pick and rolls together. Mason still has the shot, he didnt lose it.
November 16th, 2009 at 1:50 pm
Simple solution: offense-defense substitution pattern of TP and Hill.
Offense: TP, Manu, RJ, TD, Dice
Defense: Hill, Manu, RJ, TD, Dice
November 16th, 2009 at 1:51 pm
*At the end of games, obviously. I’m not advocating this as a full-time strategy.
In the meantime, trying Hill at the two seems a logical move.
November 16th, 2009 at 2:01 pm
What I don’t understand is why people feel the need to trash one player (Parker) to sing the praises of another (Hill). Especially when the two compliment each other so well in a lineup together.
I agree with the three man potential of Blair, Jefferson and Ginobili. I like starting Jefferson, but maybe a good option would be to take him out early for Finley or Bogans (if we’re starting Hill), and put him back in at the end of the first and to start the second with Ginobili and Blair. That way we have waves of Tim and Tony and then Manu and RJ. Plus our second unit is much more athletic and up and down, suiting RJ’s strengths.
That being said, Jefferson still needs to adjust to playing with Tony and Tim. He needs to be aggressive.
November 16th, 2009 at 2:26 pm
Of course its MANU.
If it were a playoff game, Manu would have been playing. The whole team on offense and defense just goes into another level when Manu is on the floor. I think Manu could have handled that close game if he was in.
Props to George Hill though for allowing POP the luxury of not having to press Manu in an early season game. They could have still pulled this one out without Manu. It was a good gamble, unfortunately it didn’t result in a win.
November 16th, 2009 at 2:35 pm
The key to the team’s struggles right now come down to one person, and it’s not Tony Parker. It’s Richard Jefferson. He’s being to deferential when Tony and Tim are in the lineup. As Jesse said above, Tim and Tony aren’t very explosive players - but I think we’ve all seen that RJ is. When he attacks the rim, the offense hums along like a well-oiled machine. When he defers, we shoot pretty badly. He creates a problem that defenses can’t solve without giving us the spacing we need for the other guys to be effective. Please, RJ, be selfish.
November 16th, 2009 at 3:38 pm
All great points guys. I know I’ve been a George Hill fan since the beginning, but one of the reasons he’s blossomed is cause of TP. I’ve posted earlier that of the Big 3, Parker is the one that seems most out of place and still trying to figure things out, but that’s to be expected with the position he’s playing. Further, after carrying so much of the load last year, he’s just thinking too much right now. I think he’ll get it, but my biggest convern in RJ. The guy has got some game. Yet with a healthy SPURS, I just think he sees the names on the back of those jerseys and is hesitant to step on any toes. We’ve seen what great things come when he’s aggressive and attacks. I wonder if Pop et al are supporting this guy in practice. Let’s see some plays run for him and I’m sure that confidense will show.
November 16th, 2009 at 6:15 pm
Tony is our starter and he has to be there in the finish. He has the experience and knows winning. He can handle the Laker gaurds. He does have weakness (free throws in last minute and defense) but his positives outweigh. Having said that, I would be much more confortable if he had not played this summer. Already turned his ankle once. A rested, healthy Tony is a force to be feared, but he is not rested or healthy. The good news is that Hill’s play should give Tony some much needed rest.
November 16th, 2009 at 7:00 pm
I’m thinking along the lines of Chris K. You sub in George for Tony when there is a need defensively. Tony is better offensively, while George is a step up defensively. If we can get away with small ball both could be out there. I also think you could look at playing McDyess instead of Jefferson depending on the matchup and keep both Tony and George on the floor with Duncan and Ginobili being the constants.
November 16th, 2009 at 7:01 pm
I still okafor would be a good trade. He’s much taller than bonner and mason has been in a shooting slump in threes over the past couple of games and I really don’t think it will get better. And it would free up many minutes for hairston
November 16th, 2009 at 7:23 pm
I agree that trading Parker is nuts. That’s why I stated earlier that I banish the thought as soon as it pops up. I’m just surprised that it does pop up periodically.
Parker is a fantastic talent, and a top point guard in the league. The frustration that I feel is that it feels like when the ball hits his hands, it sticks. He does get assists, but not as many as the point guard on a team with the weapons we have should be getting.
I don’t want to trade him, but I do want to make sure that we’re getting the best use out of the players we have. Like a couple of other folks have noted, Jefferson and Parker don’t get it done when they’re on the floor together. Some part of that will resolve as they get used to each other, but I don’t think it will be fixed all the way. The are both at their best offensively when they’re charging towards the basket, and they obviously can’t both be doing that at the same time.
I don’t know what the answers are, but I’m excited to see what happens. I have full faith in Pop and RC to evaluate what they have and make the best use of it.
November 16th, 2009 at 8:20 pm
anyone else think Manu was extremely unhappy with Pops decision? He untied his shoes before the games was over, didn’t pay any attention to the huddle during timeouts in the 4th, and sat crossed legged on the bench like he was relaxing watching TV. Hopefully it was just disappointment and no hard feelings are carried over, but Manu seems to be adding that his Hamstring feels great any time he’s had a chance (even his last facebook had “my hamstring feels great” at the end)
November 16th, 2009 at 8:56 pm
I think parker is the key to the spurs offense. His penetration causes defenses to collapse which, in turn, leaves shooters (hill included) open. Hill best fits in the line up with parker so that while tony is penetrating, george is in the corner ready for the three. (Isn’t he shooting 50% or something for the year? It sure feels that way)
That said, I think we need to trade tony while we can and capitalize on the uncertainty of the summer of 2010.
Hear me out: what we really need is a solid center to take of the wear and tear off of duncan now and spell timmy once he retires. From looking at splitters stats over in spain I do not think he will be the savior that we think he will be. He’s a little old to be making the transition from europe to the nba and I dont think his 5 rebs/game will improve much. He shoots 50% from the line. He does not score the ball well. Could he be better than his numbers? Possibly. I doubt it. We need to think big. When tim retires we will truly realize what he does for this franchise. Tony cannot lead a team to a finals victory all by himself.
Who should we trade for?
Lebron- It’s a personal dream of mine to see Lebron in a spurs uni. Lebron alongside duncan and manu would win some games. It doesnt answer any defensive problems but I love Lebron. I like what Chris Rock said about Lebron. He mentioned that its a little crazy that the cavs aren’t thinking about trading him away when James could walk away and leave the cavs with nothing. That is a VERY risky bet. Ferry is rather crafty and I believe spurs loyal. MAYBE just maybe we could get Lebron. I would give tony and jefferson and bonner for Lebron.
Okafor is a nice option and I’ve read that NO is shopping him. It would be gravy if we could package bonner finley and mason to get him, and give NO cap relief with a shot at getting a FA in the summer. I doubt NO would bite. A trade would probably include Dyess. Okafor is an upgrade by far.
Bosh is the best target. Though he has said he is pleased with the way Toronto has revamped their team, the raptors do not compare with our spurs. Bosh would play in Texas and have multiple opportunities to win championships. Our victory this year and next would be sealed. Duncan has his successor. All is well with the spurs world. We would have to give up tony and possibly manu. I would rather give up jefferson but with turkoglu there I doubt toronto would want him. I still think a Hill,bogans, jefferson, duncan, bosh lineup is championship worthy. bonner mason finley off the bench. Hell we could sign Iverson to start at the 2 and bring bogans in off the bench. Talk about firepower!
To summarize: Hill is a better defender than tony and if pop thinks that we need more focus on defense this is the best way to assure it. I completely agree that because of last year tony is still trying to do everything and that this spurs team does not need that. It needs defensive grit, energy and length. All of which Hill provides. (not to mention that great corner three) Hill will only get better. Imagine, fellow fans, next year when they give george all new things to work on and he comes back even better than this year. What will we do with tony then? At that point if Hill can hit a midrange jumper, finish in the lane, hit the three, and play defense, why would we still need tony? We dont need a scoring first pg. We need a pg that puts the team and defense first. Play defense first, pass second, and score third. Tony is the complete opposite of this. Tony is an amazing talent and a top 3 pg. I firmly believe hill is a year or two away from being at that same level. Trade tony for bosh. GO SPURS GO!!!!!
November 16th, 2009 at 9:20 pm
Im intrigued by the idea of dividing the Big 4. But not moving TP 2 the bench but Jefferson. Its very apparent RJ is an offensive force when he is not playing third fiddle to Timmy and Parker. Coming of the bench with Manu he can do his thing offensively. Maybe even starting Hill with TP. WOW!!! Pop has alot of options and possibilities. Always a good problem to have.
November 16th, 2009 at 10:10 pm
All i can say is WOW, lol.
Fans sure are quick to lose their MINDS! Someone said this above:
————-
I think KB hits the nail on the head. The four “constants” on the final five should be Manu, Hill, RJ and Timmy. Tony and Antonio could be used situationally. While we all love Tony, by now we know that he is not a distributor-first point guard, he doesn’t have great court vision (a la Manu), he’s not a consistent defender, he has a tendency, particularly at the end of ball games, to try and do it all himself, and his free throw shooting in the clutch is suspect.
———————
Wow, play Jefferson and Hill over Parker? Ok guys, don’t get crazy here. Tony Parker is one of the top guards in the NBA. Hill and Jefferson are at best AVERAGE NBA players. Hill is up and coming, which is true, and if he gets better that is something. But at his current level, he cannot be compared to Parker. Jefferson on the other hand is in the middle of decline, and the peak was not that high up. To rather have Jefferson on the floor than Parker is C-R-A-Z-Y!
If i were the coach, it would all be situational. However, the only players which would ALWAYS be on the court at the end of games are: Parker, Manu and Duncan. Those are your big three. In fact, if i had to pick 1 guy to have on my team this year out of all the Spurs, it would be Parker over Manu/Duncan. If i had a 100% healthy guarantee, then it would be Manu, but only by a little bit. Overall, i believe Parker is the best player you guys have.
November 16th, 2009 at 10:20 pm
Finally a voice of REASON:
—————-
Timothy Varner
November 16th, 2009 at 9:46 am @all: Benching Tony Parker in favor of George Hill is insane! George Hill looks good, but does he look that good. Parker is one the best point guards in the league, an impossible guard, and a former Finals MVP. I’m saying promote him to the starting line up, not to the team’s leading alpha dog.
—————————-
Talk about getting over-excited! One minute he is on the bench, the next the guy is the Jordan of this era, Mr. George Jordan Hill!
November 16th, 2009 at 10:35 pm
Zainn
Sorry to say, but you can’t trade a bunch of garbage for a star. Just doesn’t work that way.
You wrote:
——-
zainn
November 16th, 2009 at 11:54 am I think the best solution would be to trade for emeka okafor by trading bonner, mason, and mahinmi/hairston.
————-
I actually think that Spurs fans undervalue Bonner to a great extent, so this is not a bash on him. It is just that no one in their right mind would make that trade. It’s like saying you should trade Finley/Mason/pack of chewing gum, for Lebron.
November 16th, 2009 at 10:48 pm
Wow, i completely take back what i said! I went off on someone else because they were attempting to trade garbage for Okafor. A few posts later i read this:
————-
Ferry is rather crafty and I believe spurs loyal. MAYBE just maybe we could get Lebron. I would give tony and jefferson and bonner for Lebron.
—————————-
Look man, there is no way in hell that anyone would make that deal. First off, no team would take Jefferson for FREE. He is not even close to being worth what he is making. In effect, this would be a salary dump. You guys dumping your bad contract on the Cavs. That leaves Tony for lebron. Tony is a great point guard, don’t get me wrong. But no way in HELL anyone is trading Lebron for Tony. Just not happening.
The Cavs wouldn’t even think about it. That would be the end of their franchise. Secondly, Lebron would not agree to it. He would still go into the free agency market at the end of the year.
It’s just all ridiculous.
November 16th, 2009 at 10:52 pm
Parker has struggled like no other Spur with this revamped roster and thin playbook. His assist to turnover ratio is horrible and he seems to not find players in the right spots yet. Maybe Hill running point and Tony at the 2 would be a good way to start the game, because at this point Tony can’t seem to distribute properly, as was seen when RJ got only 4 attempts against the Thunder. TP seems to be forcing the issue and it costs his team winnable games. Its true: Its time to limit the rotation to about 8-10 players so that they can end up finding their roles.
November 17th, 2009 at 5:46 am
I can’t stand all of this confusion. I know it’s early, but it seems there’s no light at the end of tunnel. If the Spurs could find a way to get back to twin tower basketball with Tony, Manu and RJ in the back court,,, problem solved.
November 17th, 2009 at 5:54 am
I wasn’t going to get back into this conversation, but the fact of the matter is if you have a shoot first point guard YOU CAN’T WIN (ask Allen Iverson).
In my experiences a shoot first point sucks all the life out of a team, and good shooters need touches in rhythm. We can’t expect Mason, Finley, and Bonner to be productive if they are not getting the ball in good spot and in a timely rhythm. The reason Tim is consider the best power forward of all time is because of his superior understanding of situational basketball and of course he’s a baller.
November 17th, 2009 at 5:55 am
Tony should take note of that
November 17th, 2009 at 6:10 am
Please folks, there are many, many logical arguments that can be made in favor of Tony. But please don’t use “he’s an All-Star and Finals MVP.” Iverson was an All-Star ten times, a LEAGUE MVP. We all know that the league, fans and television reward offense only. How many nights on NBA TV’s highlight reel do you see defensive plays or even assists? I love Steve Nash, as a player and a person. But his two MVP wins were a joke. He is a major defensive liability. We continually beat the Suns during their glory years by exploiting that fact.
November 17th, 2009 at 6:39 am
In response to the idea of the Cavs trading Lebron.
If I was a Cavs fan and Lebron left in free agency this summer I would be pissed! However, I’d get over it.
If I was a Cavs fan and they traded Lebron, for anyone, I would burn the stadium down! Or just be pissed and stop supporting them all together.
So basically, the idea of trading Tony and others for Lebron is pretty silly, and would never happen.
I completely agree with Zeus that Pop should start cutting the rotation down. I think it’d help the players gel more.
November 17th, 2009 at 7:01 am
I’ve always thought about this, but if the Spurs need another big they should have at least tried to acquire Samuel Dalembert because he has a decent offensive game and he actually is a good help defender. There is no doubt that Philly would like him gone soon.
And regarding our current record: I would like to see the Spurs pick up far more wins than they are currently getting, because it is FAR beyond obvious that the schedule-makers gave the Spurs as much rest as they needed. They’ve had all these days off with just 1 set of back-to-backs so far. Meanwhile, upstart teams like the Blazers, Hawks, Thunder, and even Nuggets play all these back-to-backs and are all over playing the road right now.
I mean, if the Spurs don’t play well soon do you think it is just a mental thing where the Spurs give the excuse that they didn’t have enough rest; Pops has beaten the issue of rest over and over and it has gotten to the Spurs. And now they ARE getting rest and they’re still picking up the losses.
It is upsetting that the Spurs aren’t taking advantage of what the schedule-makers have generously given them so far (as well as a league-low 17 back-to-backs) all because of the infamous game in Denver last year.
Its time for the Spurs to start thinking like the Celtics, who are old but still maintain that fire every night, with no worry of injury.
November 17th, 2009 at 7:31 am
You mean, the Celtics who lost in the playoffs because Garnett was injured? Those Celtics?
I trust Pop & RC. They’ll get this figured out, one way or another.
By the way, my trust in Pop is why I’m so bullish on Hill. He’s not the second coming of Jordan, Pippen, etc. I get that. However, how many players have you seen Pop openly and enthusiastically gush over? The ones I can think of wore/wear numbers 50, 21, 20 and now 3. He’ll praise other people occasionally when he’s asked, but it’s very rare that he volunteers that kind of praise.
I don’t really see Hill as being in that class, but obviously Pop is seeing something that makes him think George could be special. I’m excited to find out what that is.
November 17th, 2009 at 8:01 am
Did no one read my first post? Parker is not selfish. Him and (the new, older) Tim Duncan have the EXACT SAME FLAW. If you don’t hit jump shots the defense collapses and gives both those players fits because neither one is explosive. If you’re hitting threes then it’s a layup line for either of them. Hell, on a good shooting team Tony Parker is as dangerous an offensive weapon as any in the NBA.
So far, every game that Parker has played with the Spurs hitting threes his line has been near 20 and 7. Without the outside shooting, the whole offense bogs down regardless of who is playing.
And as far as comparing TP to Iverson (or using AI in an arguement), it’s not like TP is dribbling out the shot clock or shooting 12-32. He shoots at 50% WITHOUT turning the ball over.
There is no such thing as a “pure” point guard. The point of a lead guard, an offense in fact, is to get efficient shots. I would qualify layups and open threes, something Parker generates in bunches, as the most efficient shots possible.
Assists per game, which is what many of you are using as a barometer of a point guard, is the single most overrated stat in today’s NBA. I would even argue that the high assists generated by Paul and Nash actually shows great flaws to their teams.
Do you want to know why they both average over 10 assists? Because their teams run nothing but pick and rolls, an entire game, through just the ONE player. Why? Because unlike the Spurs (Duncan, Ginobili) those teams have no other talents capable of creating. They also (Suns more than Hornets) speed up the pace at insane levels to mask a weak defense. More possessions, more opportunities for assists. And all that is before mentioning that the other guys have teammates more conducive to P&R assists (mobile, athletic bigs with jumpers).
The real measure of whether an offense has a “ball stopper” or not is to look at a teams overall assists. According to ESPN, last year we finished above the league average while playing at a far slower pace.
November 17th, 2009 at 9:50 am
OK, a lot of the comments here have just gone off the deep end.. Lebron?? really???
Let’s turn this forum back into intelligent comments instead of fantasy b-ball.
November 17th, 2009 at 10:04 am
The funny part is some of the people have spent teh first part of this comment section trashing Tony Parker and then think he has the trade value of a Lebron or CP3.
November 17th, 2009 at 10:11 am
Kaveh,
You wrote: “Sorry to say, but you can’t trade a bunch of garbage for a star. Just doesn’t work that way.”
Just who did the Lakers give up for Gasol again? You can and it happens.
Parker, Manu and Duncan should be on the court for the close of close games. I think the rest of the team is situational. If you have a big like Dirk, put Dyess out there. If you have a player like Kobe or Durant, keep Hill out there. If you just need another 3pt threat, put Bonner out there.
I love Pop for not getting all crazy. He’s always started out semi-slow and in this case it’s only exacerbated by the fact that Boston, LA and Phoenix are doing so well. Personally, I’d rather have the Spurs come playoff team doing well because they spent the first 10-15 games gelling than to fizzle out at the playoffs because they’re out of gas.
November 17th, 2009 at 10:42 am
The Spurs should try to trade Mason. Mason is a good shooter and that’s about it. Bring in Malik Hairston and see how good he is on D. Hairston is bigger and stronger than Mason. Hairston can play the 2 and 3.
November 17th, 2009 at 2:14 pm
I think Mason’s defense has improved. i’m surprised hes not getting more minutes.
please, guys, cleveland is not trading lebron for anybody. lets keep the conversation realistic.
there is no REALISTIC trade out there that would benefit us more than it costs us. give the guys some time- if parker and timmy hadnt gotten hurt, now is about the time i would expect to see everyone gelling. their injuries set us back about a week though. i’d say give it through the end of the month before we start getting anywhere near the panic button.
On the Parker criticism, i DO think he is one of the top 5 pg’s in the league. I DO NOT think he is a ball hog, nor do i think he hurts our offense more than he helps it. I’ve got to agree with Jesse. Most of you are using assists per game as your primary stat, and much of that is out of Tony’s hands. He makes good passes, but when other’s shots arent falling, how is he supposed to get assists?
He should be a better defender than he is though. When it comes down to it, i’m not sure if we would notice a dropoff. Allowed points vs what tony makes, then looking at what George allows vs what he would make. George is quick on the dribble too, and he is improving. Honestly, i think he could end up being one of the most underrated players in the league when all is said and done. He wont have enough flash to ever get to an all star game, but he is going to be damn good, starter quality pg/shooting guard material.
Bottom line, though, is RJ needs to stop deferring and start attacking. If he does that, and Tony keeps doing it, and Manu keeps doing it, eventually everything is going to open up.
November 17th, 2009 at 3:00 pm
I think comparing Nash and other teams that have a high assist ratio to failure is not a good measure. They simply lacked the defense we have. The Hornets did almost beat us if I remember correctly, The suns, unfortunately for them, never had any defense and that’s why they lost.
I don’t think it should be called trashing Parker more as to pointing the obvious, it is hard to go one on one in the NBA, specially with the big front courts we are up against. Pick and rolls are important and assist do provide and show good ball movement and I don’t think is an overrated stat. We have a lot of offensive weapons this year and we need Parker to be a facilitator, why is that so hard to understand. If Parker will be scoring most of the time, then whats the point of having Jefferson and the guys we just got, we could have stayed the same, I know they also are good defensively, but I still think we need a good distributor and I hope the Parker/Hill combination can provide that need.
November 17th, 2009 at 5:43 pm
Long post. Sorry guys.
Parker has got a ton of talent. I don’t think he should be benched, but that I said, I do get frustrated with him sometimes. I feel he should be better at getting everyone else involved.
Next game (when he’s on the floor), don’t look at Parker. Instead, try to follow the 4 other Spurs on the court.
Look for the following:
1) Is everyone else just standing there? Are they just waiting for either Parker to take a shot, or are they simply clearing the floor to TD to get the ball down low.
2) Are they working hard to get loose and curl off screens? If they are open, do they get the ball passed to them at the right time — when the defender is a step behind?
3) Are they NOT working hard to get open? Maybe Parker has overlooked them a couple of times and they might be half-assing instead of cutting hard to the open spot.
4) Look at the shot clock - how much time has the ball been in TP’s hands?
5) How many touches do the four other guys get per possession?
Just take a look at judge for yourself.
On a side note, I like what Jesse has to say about 3 point shooting. However, I disagree with his conclusion. He says, “If the team hits then Duncan or Tony usually shoot something like 11-16, because you can’t guard them one on one. When ALL of our shooters are cold, you get games like the other night and a whole bunch of you making stupid decisions like benching or trading Tony Parker.”
TP and TD will definitely go nuts if guys are hitting 3′s. But hitting 3′s is not simply a matter of luck. I think that cold shooting is DIRECTLY related to a lack of ball movement. Something that Parker himself may be responsible for.
It’s hard for our shooters to find a rhythm if they haven’t touched the ball in 4 trips up the floor, or if they are asked to bail out the team with a 3 point chuck with 2 seconds left on the shot clock (and a hand in their face).
Anyway, like I said…watch the 4 other guys in silver and black.
November 17th, 2009 at 6:51 pm
Tim!! Hurry up and put up another post before 48minutesofhell turns anymore into Spurstalk.com!
8 games into the season and George Hill, who has less minutes in the NBA than Parker does playoff minutes, is a better option to finish the game with than Tony Parker?!
I’m surprised that you guys haven’t started calling for Popovich to be fired yet…
November 17th, 2009 at 6:52 pm
Some of these posts are insane.
November 17th, 2009 at 8:34 pm
Jesse,
I respect your opinion as far as Parker is concerned, but the fact of the matter is there is a such thing as a pure point guard we’ve seen them before, and assist tells more about the true IQ of a player then any other stat. A pure point guard understands personnel, game situation, and when to shoot and when to pass…I think some of the bloggers think I hate Tony, they couldn’t be more wrong, I see greatness in his ability. I would like to see him trust his teammates more.
November 17th, 2009 at 9:11 pm
Tony isn’t the problem
November 17th, 2009 at 9:25 pm
We should trade those expiring contracts of Bonner,finley, and mason for a big our offense ins’t the problem. Interior D is a big problem though Duncan needs help down low and a 6’9 powerfoward playing center dosen’t help. The truth is we overthought this offseason Getting sheed instead of dice would’ve helped but i wont dwell on the past. I agree with most of you when jefferson is attacking the offense flows much better but it seems when everyone is healthy he cant even get more than 4 shots in a game. I think we should turn the team over to Parker when everyone was injured last year he stepped up and showed why he is a top 5 pg in this league. He needs to attack more and the offense will flow better. when the deffense collapses can you picture tony giving jefferson a bounce pass for a dunk, a pass to duncan for a lay up or dice. That would solve alot of problems all while getting the other team in foul trouble. Ginobli is like what 31 hes on the downslide of hes’ career and the thing is other than last year he was really never injury prone it just comes with age we made all have to accept the fact that duncan may just retire with 4 rings. And oh yeah ive seen splitter play and im not impressed and at age 25 i dont see him getting any better .
November 17th, 2009 at 9:28 pm
agreed. insanity on a spurs message board? for shame, people.
in prevailing to the more level headed amongst us, i think jesse makes the strongest points. i agree that those torching tony to praise george are downright nuts, as well as denigrating the work both have done to become the players they are. tony’s assist numbers are where they’re at because that is what pop and the system ask of him. calling him a shoot first point guard is misguided. comparing him to allen iverson (for shame! a man of his ilk?) is also fallacious, as the past year and change have revealed iverson to the world to be the cancer and one-man show most of us close observers already knew. tony is not such a person, and any spurs fan would and should know it.
look, when it all comes down to it, the lakers are the gateway to the finals. what gives the lakers the most problems? it’s not post play, but the blazing speed and quickness of guards like aaron brooks and tony parker that give them problems. is tony a defensive liability? hardly, and especially not against the likes of fisher. i think tim’s suggestion of ending games with hill NEXT to parker is spot on. if it’s against the lakers, a lineup might look something like: tp, gh, manu, mcd, timmy. but honestly, i wouldn’t mind putting in jefferson for dice. sure, we go small, but that didn’t seem to stope houston from taking the lakers to game 7. jefferson is a decent rebounder for his size, and if he’ll work his tail off at the end of a game, i don’t see why his size should be an issue.
November 17th, 2009 at 9:44 pm
also, for those wanting to trade for okafor: no no no no no no.
one of the things [a geek like me] takes the most pride in as a spurs fan, is our managment’s flexibility with the cap and our personnel. okafor kills it. in every which way (and i like okafor’s game and as a person, not just because he’s a fellow texan and child of immigrants). if he could be had more cheaply and for a shorter contract length, then i’m all for it, but since we live in the real world, no. camby would be a far better solution, and i’m not sold on him either.
let the guys do their business, and then if the sky is falling during the second half of the season, make adjustments, not 8 games in.
November 18th, 2009 at 5:45 am
@andy: agree about cap management, but Okafor is too much of a talent to pass up if he’s on the block for scraps, although I don’t think he is.
And I still think the Hill is better than Parker crowd should step away from the crack pipe. Slowly, and thank you.
November 18th, 2009 at 7:39 am
Individual assists are the most overrated statistic in the NBA. Remember that in their primes, Iverson and Marbury would be good for 8-10 assists on any given night. But we would hardly consider them high basketball IQ players. They would just pound the ball unless they were sure it would get them a stat. Hell, Wilt once led the entire NBA in assists for one season. And some of his teammates and peers stated it was the most selfish they’ve ever seen him play.
No. I’ve seen Parker make as many non-assist passes and hockey assist passes as any point guard in the NBA. I’ll concede on occassion he can be caught over driblling, but it’s not a very frequent habit.
I think Hollinger sums it up best in this season’s scouting report on Parker in that he keeps his passes simple (i.e. kickouts on drives and swinging it around the perimeter). He can hit cutters on some P&R when the passing lanes are open but he doesn’t wrap behind the back passes through three defenders. Nor does he thread a bounce pass the length of the floor while running full speed. That’s what seperates Chris Paul from Parker. That’s what Manu Ginobili does. But in the case of Manu, his passes do lead to turnovers too.
If you want to see if you have a dominant ball hog on your team don’t look at individual assists. Look at team assists per game (Spurs were above average last year), factor in pace (Spurs were among the slowest teams in the league…less possessions) and look at percentage of baskets assisted. In rare cases where these are down for a successful team, check team field goal percentage. Again I want to stress an offense’s true goal is not to have everyone fit a specific role according to their position. It’s to generate the most efficient shot. The Spurs (and Tony Parker do that).
November 18th, 2009 at 7:53 am
well most of the time tony kicks it out to the baseline three after driving in the lane, so therefore he does not get the assists he should be getting. I like it when parker takes it in b/c there is a higher percentage of him making a score inside the paint than a three pointer from finley (even though we are a great 3 point team), a quick two is a much better way to do it
November 18th, 2009 at 2:59 pm
Man, the Tony fans really got up in arms over this one.
“How dare guys suggest Tony come off the bench in favor of Tony parker “
The top argument given by who those who find Tonys benching ludicrous is that he’s “A top five point guard”.
I don’t see how benching tony necessarily means that George is thought of as in the same class as Parker. Is George Mason or Michael Finley APPROACHING the class that Manu Ginobili is in?
I don’t see why this should be thought of as such an insane suggestion when most other teams have an offensive punch coming off of the bench, rather than the luxury of a Swiss army knife like Ginobili.
Besides, Tony would still be seeing starter’s minutes and be on the floor for most of the crunch time minutes (sound like another all world talent on the Spurs?)
Clearly Manu is a better passer than Tony and would be better suited to distribute the Ball to Tim RJ and Hill.
Wouldn’t the following scenario encourage Tony? “Tony, the lanes will be open because Timmy and Dice are not going to be in the game. Drive to the hoop like a madman and occasionally dish the ball to the open man” …isn’t this what Tony already does? He may even be more productive off of the bench with the knowledge that the lane won’t be as clogged.
The belief that maybe Tony should come off the bench doesn’t make me less of a fan.
Last but not least, we all know that Pop would probably try bringing RJ off the bench before he did Tony, and who knows, that scenario may work very well.
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November 18th, 2009 at 4:59 pm
hey guys…manu ginobili is very much better than tony parker..so i think that if manu can come of the bench for the betterment of the team then tony should too also!!!!
tony parker is a one man show..doesn’t know how to involve his teammates!..doesn’t know how to make them better!
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