Friday, August 14th, 2009...7:31 am
Love for Combo Guards
In a recent post, I made a couple suggestions that are regarded with suspicion by some of our readers. First, some readers scratch their heads over my categorization of Andrew Bynum as a star player. Second, they question whether the league really has moved to a place where the elite teams place 4 star players at their core. I’m still persuaded that is the case, despite several thoughtful comments to the contrary.
One contrarian is 48MoH reader Tim in Surrey. He left a comment this morning that deserves a promotion, so I’m going to quote the majority of it in the space below. His thoughts take a helicopter view, a helpful approach in this case.
About Bynum: I think he can be a star and showed that he was on the verge of it for some long stretches last season, before breaking down. But although he’s a first-rate talent and LA is well known for developing players, it still remains to be seen whether he can convert those flashes into consistent stellar production over a period of years. And for a young player he has had a lot of injury problems already. But the real point is that LA essentially won the title without him. Technically he was on the roster but he certainly wasn’t playing at a star level. So LA in 2009 still fits the 3-star model, from my point of view.
If you’d like a good example of champions that didn’t follow that model, I think you either have to look at Houston in the 90s (Olajuwon, Drexler, and co.) and possibly Detroit’s back-to-back teams (Dumars, Thomas, and co.), or go all the way back to the West Coast champs of the 70s (GS, Portland, and Seattle). Portland fans will argue that Lucas was a true star but he certainly wasn’t a big one. It was really just Walton & Luke plus a bunch of future coaches and GMs, all led by Dr. Jack. Seattle had a great pair of guards (Johnson and Williams) plus another bunch of future coaches and GMs, all led by Lenny Wilkens. Golden State? Well, there were guys on the roster other than Rick Barry who were stars–but not really during that year. (Jamaal Wilkes is a good example. He was not yet at that star level.)
The interesting point about all of this is that the only teams that I can think of that didn’t follow the 3-star model, going back more than 45 years, either had a truly dominant defensive center (Russell, Walton, Olajuwon) or did it with a legendary backcourt duo. And those backcourt-dominated champions each had two guys who could pass AND score AND defend either position, at elite levels. As rare as those guys are, though, it’s probably easier to get two of them than a great defensive center. Everybody likes to scorn the “combo guard” but just think about how many great teams have been built around them!
51 Comments
August 14th, 2009 at 8:15 am
I was about to say that the 90-93 bulls only had Jordan and Pippen. But in hindsight Horace Grant was a badass! (http://www.nba.com/playerfile/horace_grant/index.html)
In 91-92 his stats were: 14.2 ppg, 10 rpg, and 58% FG SHOOTING PERCENTAGE!
Seriously, throw those stats on any of the current contenders and see what happens. What an unbelievable underrated player. What would his stats have been with more touches?
August 14th, 2009 at 8:18 am
Jonathan,
When I looked up Grant’s stats I had the same reaction. He didn’t seem that good, but those are solid numbers. For all the heat he took, Jerry Krause knew what he was doing.
August 14th, 2009 at 10:08 am
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August 14th, 2009 at 11:55 am
How about the ’99 Spurs, who only had two stars (Duncan, Robinson) and the ’03 Spurs, who only had one star (Duncan)? Despite how much his game may have resembled it, Duncan was clearly a power forward back then. ’99 did it without a truly great creator on the perimeter, which is extremely rare, and ’03 did it with one star, and it was a non center.
August 14th, 2009 at 12:38 pm
Wow. What a great insight. Damn I’m going to miss Tim Duncan. Let’s bring another one home for the guy.
August 14th, 2009 at 12:47 pm
Good point. That ’03 team was extremely well-balanced and had 3 guys who were on the cusp of stardom. There numbers weren’t great yet, but Ginobili, Parker, and S-Jax were all clearly headed somewhere. If even one of the young guys on our roster right shows that kind of burgeoning talent, I like our chances in the offseason.
It’s funny that Steve Smith had the biggest contract after Tim Duncan and David Robinson that year.
August 14th, 2009 at 3:14 pm
You would have to say in ’99 that Sean Elliot was a star. I don’t have the stats in front of me, but he hit shots (Memorial Day Miracle) that won playoff games and put us over the top. His best days were probably behind him, but so were Robinsons.
August 14th, 2009 at 6:20 pm
So Tim ,Graydon and fellow 48minute readers, is the Spurs offseason over? I’ve been of the mindset that probably not, especially with a new target date for reloading.
We’ve all been aware of the Spurs 2010 offseason plans, and how those have now been scrapped for a likely 2012 offseason reaload with the additions of Jefferson and Mcdyess.
Also we all know that Roger Mason and Matt Bonner both expire due to contracts that the Spurs negotiated when 2010 cap space was the main goal.
My question is who would you guys like the Spurs to target from a team looking to make a splash next offseason?
My recommendation awhile back in these comments had been a trade with Houston sending them Mason/Bonner and us getting Mr Shane Battier. To me this works on all levels, Battier fits a need (perimeter D, outside shooting, small ball 4, and great glue guy) and Houston gets a replacement for Von Wafer who they recently lost and about 7 million more dollars of cap space next offseason. For us this also frees up a roster space for one of our Toro projects.
And last but not least Battier’s contract expires in time for our new 2012 offseason plan. This is a 2 year go for it all swing for the back to back titles that have eluded us.
Does anyone have anything better? Here is a list of teams courtesy of Chad Ford from espn.com
“Given current projections, nine teams — the New Jersey Nets, New York Knicks, Miami Heat, Minnesota Timberwolves, Houston Rockets, Chicago Bulls, Oklahoma City Thunder, Los Angeles Clippers and Sacramento Kings — could have significant money under the salary cap to spend in 2009.”
August 14th, 2009 at 9:06 pm
Roger Mason’s a better outside shooter than Battier, and 2 years younger. The Spurs aren’t lacking in “glue guys.” They could use a lockdown perimeter defender of Battier’s quality, but I don’t believe that Mason is a disposable part. Battier makes more than $6mil/annum, while Mason’s contract pays out around 3.8 million per year. Additionally, Battier’s a favored son out in Houston, and I don’t think they’re going to give him up that easily. Do THEY need Mason and Bonner?
Roger Mason the best new Spur to join our team in the past half decade. He disappeared in the playoffs. But we wouldn’t even have gotten there without him.
Give the man some respect.
Also, who gives a what about 2012? We can win championships right now.
August 14th, 2009 at 9:10 pm
Oh in the course of my thoughts there I lost sight of the ‘take advantage of teams clearing cap space’ angle, cory, so ignore my contract stuff..
But Shane Battier’s a marginal improvement over Mason, all things considered.
How do you determine the value (in wins, not dollars) of a perimeter defender?
August 14th, 2009 at 9:12 pm
3x post of power - I love Roger Mason, you should too.
August 15th, 2009 at 5:25 am
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August 15th, 2009 at 7:26 am
BB, I agree with just about all your points, and I’m not trying to dog out Roger Mason but here are a few other points that I didn’t make in my original post:
-Mason’s 2 year contract expires next offseason, since he has not played three straight seasons w/us we will not have his Bird Rights and would be forced to use the MLE to sign him. The problem with this is how much money will we really be willing to spend to keep Mason? With so many teams being under the cap I would not be surprised if, with another solid season, he priced himself out of our range, especially considering that we’ll be looking to resign Manu and bring Splitter over. So my thinking is I would rather have Battier locked up for 2 years like the majority of our team than Mason for possibly only one.
-Roster Flexibility is my next point, I honestly think we are stacked in the backcourt. We will to divide 96 backcourt minutes between Parker playing 35 minutes a game, Manu playing 30 minutes, & George Hill hopefully playing 25 minutes, that leaves us with 90 of those minutes taken not even counting combo SF/SG guys like Richard Jefferson, Marcus Williams and Malik Hairston who I can see carving out a few minutes here and there. I think we have a ton of options even if we have to sit Manu a few games throughout the season.
By bringing Battier in, who is able to get his minutes playing SF/PF we give our team soooo much flexibility. And think of defensive lineup of George Hill, Jefferson, and Battier in the game all at the same time, add in Duncan and Ratliff and I promise teams will have trouble scoring! As much as I like Mason, a lockdown defensive unit like that gets me really hyped.
-My 3rd point is this, you mentioned who cares about cap space in 2 years when we can win a championship now. I think this trade gives us an unbelievable two year run and in addition we would have the flexibility to build a team around TP who I think teams will be going after very hard that offseason. With probably only Duncan, Splitter, Blair, Hill, and maybe some late 1st rounders on the cap (Manu is the ?) we will be able to reload in any direction we want.
*On a side note, excuse any errors, this was typed up on my Blackberry*
August 15th, 2009 at 9:15 am
Ha! Very good points, all. I feel dumb now. I’d still like to see what Mason can contribute after a full season learning the system, since he was so valuable so early. But your logic is sound.
August 15th, 2009 at 2:19 pm
Cory Clay,
I suspect you have the breakdown of the back court minutes distribution way off. Hill will be the fourth guard in the rotation, and barring injury to any of the top three ahead of him for an extended period of time, there’s no way he’ll see 25 mpg.
I’m guessing Parker plays 33 mpg, Ginobili plays 27-28 mpg, Mason plays 22-24 mpg, and Hill plays 12-14 mpg, with Hairston mixed in here and there. Jefferson will be used exclusively at SF, and Finley, barring myriad injuries in the back court, likely will be too. Williams will be mixed in here and there.
You can say “stacked” all you want, but the reality is Hill is still mostly unproven as a rotation player, and Hairston and Williams are still unproven as NBA players period.
I like the depth and options, but the lack of a proven, true backup at the point is somewhat worrisome. If healthy, it should be fine though. Hill looks poised to take a step forward in his development, and Ginobili is capable of being the de facto point for stretches, if it’s needed.
August 15th, 2009 at 3:35 pm
Battier is definitely an upgrade. There is no doubt about that. If you could trade Bonner/Mason for Battier it would be a heist. But there is no way in heck that Houston would trade Battier to you guys. Battier has a very reasonable contract and he is a very good player. Why would they want to shed his contract? Also Battier is a leader in Houston and is loved by the fans. There is no chance of a Bonner/MAson trade for Battier.
Teams that trade higher talent for lower talent want to shed bad contracts. That is, RJ was definitely better than what you guys gave the Bucks talent wise. However, he had a bad contract -ie he is not worth the money he is making. Thats why the Bucks traded him to you guys. But Battier is worth the money he is making. So I doubt they will trade him for lesser talent.
August 15th, 2009 at 3:36 pm
Rye,
I see your point but here is my counter, as much as I like Mason, giving Hill 20ish minutes a game serves us better in my opinion b/c it allows him to further develop and he is much better at getting to the basket and he is also a much better defender than Mason and in my opinion Hill’s development makes us a more dangerous team than Mason’s.
Also I agree that with our roster as it currently stands Richard Jefferson will be primarily used as a SF, but my point is that he would be just as effective getting minutes at SG which would further negate the need for Mason if a trade were to be available that would help us in other places.
Lastly when discussing my 2 for 1 proposal I mentioned that free roster spot could be used on one of our numerous projects but if we do have a weakness it is possible lack of sturdy PG options so how about that free spot be used on someone that would sign for the minimum such as PG Bobby Jackson.
August 15th, 2009 at 4:24 pm
Kaveh,
This is an excert from the Chad Ford article where he discusses Houston’s cap space next offseason.
“The Rockets, assuming they don’t re-sign Tracy McGrady, can get $12 million to $14 million under if they don’t pick up team options on Carl Landry and Chuck Hayes. However, they have a couple of significant restricted free agents — Luis Scola and Kyle Lowry — whom they probably want to keep. If they keep both, they’ll have much less cap room. All of this assumes that the injured Yao Ming won’t terminate his max contract in 2010.”
So with the knowledge from this article we know that moving Battiers 7 million dollar contract would get the Rockets possibly 19-21 million in cap space, enough to resign Scola to a 6-7 million per year deal and go after top tier free agent with a Max Offer. If I’m Houston the chance to make a run at someone like Chris Bosh, Amare or Joe Johnson would be giving up Shane Battier when they have absolutely no shot at a title.
August 15th, 2009 at 5:37 pm
I would personally love to see Battier in a Spurs jersey. He’s a great defender who still has something left in him. The talk about him coming to San Antonio looks good on paper, just not too sure it could really work out
August 15th, 2009 at 5:47 pm
Cory Clay,
As much as I like Hill’s game, I find Spurs fans tend to overrate him. He’s not a future star, or even starter for that matter. His ultimate upside is that of a 20-25 mpg third guard who can play lock down defense at either guard position and provide adequate offense. In time, that’ll likely come to fruition naturally as he progresses.
There’s no need to go overboard though and cut down minutes/out entirely a current better player in Mason in order to achieve this though. Right now, the prudent thing is to, unless a can’t pass up type trade arises, keep Mason, start him and play him 22-24 mpg, and use Hill for 12-14 mpg.
Jefferson is a pure SF, something the Spurs have needed for a long time, and at 29, with past ankle problems he’s not as quick laterally as he once was, which means he’d likely get exposed defensively there, and leave a gaping hole at SF. The Spurs need Mason, because he can shoot, create some, and productively eat up plenty of minutes in order to save Ginobili wear and tear throughout the season. Also, he’s only 29 (by the time the season starts) and is relatively cheap.
August 15th, 2009 at 6:46 pm
I don’t know if thinking that a 2nd year player that showed promise his rookie season can be sparkplug off the bench is the definition of over rating someone. Also you’re missing the fact that in a trade you have to give up something to get something, Mason is a valuable role player who in my opinion is replaceable, me discussing how we would cover Mason’s minutes if he was traded isn’t me going overboard, it’s simply being thorough when discussing trade proposals, all I did was explain how I could see the Spurs replacing Mason if he was dealt.
Also all you did was attempt to shot down my idea with out even acknowledging the benefits of getting a player that strengthens our roster and gives us a type of player that we currently don’t have.
And we’ll just agree to disagree about Jefferson being able to handle minutes at SG, I think he can and maybe we’ll find out once the season starts and Popovich starts playing with his rotation.
August 15th, 2009 at 6:48 pm
What I just wrote was to address Rye’s post, sorry I forgot to mention that.
August 15th, 2009 at 7:38 pm
Agree with Rye on Mason, plus i believe he is seriously working on his game this offseason.
Although there is room for improvement with our current roster, I’m confident that it can compete for the title this upcoming season.
As far as trade is concerned, perhaps the Spurs will have to see first what kind of team they really have on the floor and make proper adjustments (if necessary) before the trade deadline in February.
August 15th, 2009 at 8:26 pm
25 mpg when he’s on a team with Parker, Ginobili, and Mason, at his positions, and is just entering his 2nd year? This team has title aspirations, they don’t have time to give THAT MANY minutes to a developing player with three clear cut better players ahead of him. It makes no sense and would negatively impact the team’s record.
I know you have to give up something, but you’re assuming a trade has to be made. I’m for letting this roster show what they’re capable of before the All-Star break. Maybe Jefferson can effectively guard top opposition wings. We know Hill is a good on the ball defender, Hairston shows the capabilities to be one, Mason said he’s worked on his body to be more agile, and Ginobili is back. You’re making an assumption that the Spurs will struggle in this regard, but you don’t know that to be true.
Of course Mason is replaceable, but he’s also highly valuable on the team, because he’s relative young (29), cheap, and is a good talent who’s committed and hard working. His three point shooting (not just standstill, he can shoot it off the dribble) and ability to double as the third PG WOULD BE hard to replace when you consider that Bowen is gone, and Finley and Bonner are due to receive considerably less minutes than last season, the Spurs will need at least one elite 3-point shooter who plays a significant role.
I would be absolutely stunned if Jefferson plays a single minute at SG this season. He will play SF, and possibly in some small ball alignments PF.
August 15th, 2009 at 10:03 pm
Rye,
I understand that Mason is a favorite of yours but from everything the Spurs F.O. has been putting out their in the media George Hill is our backup PG so it makes since to let him develop. The only way a player develops by playing. Spurs fans know that the regular season is used by Popovich to prepare the team for the playoffs. I think it was clear to everyone that the Roger Mason as backup PG was an absolute failure. I hope we never see that again. Now with saying that Mason in my opinion is what he is, why do you keep saying he is only 29? At 29 a player has already played more than half of their career. From the start of the season to the end George Hill has much more room to grow. That’s not an overstatement, or over rating him. George Hill had a very solid rookie season until Popovich changed his role, a mistake that I doubt will happen again.
Another thing about Hill, by the end of the season he was our best perimeter defender, that is something that will also get better with the more time he plays as he will continue getting used to the NBA game and getting more respect from officials.
You said that I assume a trade has to be made yet again you completly ignore the reasons why I said a trade would be beneficial. Even without a trade I am absolutely positive that Richard Jefferson will see minutes at SG, it’s more of a question of how much. Who do you think will be playing SG when Jefferson and Finley are in the game together or do you think that combination will never see the court together during 82 reg season games?
Another point that I made earlier that you continue to ignore is the fact that with a 2 for 1 trade we would then be able to sign a 3rd PG like Bobby Jackson, CJ Watson, or etc. which would give us a more well rounded roster.
August 16th, 2009 at 12:34 am
Most of you guys are making good points on what should be done with the Spurs, here’s my take:
(probable) Starting 5
C MyDyess
PF/C? Duncan (depends on how we call him)
SF Jefferson
SG Mason
PG Parker
Rotation (Bench)
C Mahinmi/Ratliff
PF Bonner/Blair/Haislip
SF Finley/Hairston
SG Ginobili
PG Hill/Williams
Currently, we have considerable depth at the C and PF positions (although some are unproven at the NBA level [Blair,Mahinmi and Haislip].
I chose or think that Mason will start because he played better as a starter last season, also Manu is so effective coming off the bench. Mason will not be our 3rd PG, he is best at the SG position hitting jumpers. (we need shooters in this lineup Mason might be our best pure shooter and maybe Finley)
Williams is listed as Forward but he plays the PG position Arizona and D-League. He might have some time at the PG position together with Manu. (i see Manu as a combo 1/2 guard)
Perimeter defenders, we currently have:
RJ (part of his job as Pop mentioned when we
acquired him, i think he is a 3/2 combo)
Hairston and Hill proved to be a capable defender at the perimeter (and both showed improvements during summer league).
I would think that Spurs will stuck to the current lineup, see what they have, and if a need arises make a move before the trade deadline in February…. (otherwise, we stick with the current roster lineup)
If a trade is to take place, i think the odd man out is Bonner (but it might be hard to find takers).
some possible trades for Bonner might be Thabo Sefolosha from OKC or B.Wright from Golden State…
If we need a roster spot (for roster flexibilty), the Spurs might make a move similar to what Denver did by trading Hunter for a future Draft pick (hello Memphis!) and i would like to mention that of the 15 spots we have, 2 of them or unguaranteed (or partially guaranteed contracts [Hairston and Williams]).
August 16th, 2009 at 3:15 am
In the regular season last year I really liked Rodger Mason’s swagger and willingness to step up and take the last shot - he had some great buzzer beaters. Pop loves that kind of confidence and that particular ability. Playing him at point kind of made him lose that approaching the playoffs. I’m sure that with the development of Hill Rodger can get back to what he does best.
Battier is a great player but on offence with the clock ticking down Mason is a great option to have on the floor. Pop knows the value of that.
Just thought this point should be made.
August 16th, 2009 at 5:13 am
That is exactly my point about Roger Mason, that is why I suggested that he should be playing the SG position rather than the point… And just for the record, Mason was taken by Spurs precisely because on his accurate shooting… By being a 5th or 6th wheel of this Team, he might be more effective… So unless a can’t pass Trade proposition comes along I’d say we should keep Mason…
As for Bonner, for all his faults and limited skills he also proved to be a decent Shooting big… If we go big, we might see a lineup of TD, Dice, Bonner, RJ and Manu on the floor for short streches…
This is the reason why, I think the Spurs should have a ‘wait and see’ attitude before making a trade. If we really need to thinker with our lineup a bit, we can ‘wait’ ’till February comes…
August 16th, 2009 at 6:02 am
Cory,
How about Finley and Bonner for Battier? I would keep Mason because he is younger and I know he can develope a better defensive game.
August 16th, 2009 at 9:25 am
Robby & Wesley,
Those are all good points made by both of you, we are definitely on the same page. Mason was great for most of the season, even being touted as the best Free Agent signing of the offseason, until of course the PG experiment. Like I said, hopefully if Mason stays on the team he will not see anymore of him at backup PG and strictly be used as a space spreading 4th option.
Having said all of that, I still think getting a player such as Battier would be a can’t pass up trade.
Just too many positives, the added roster flexibility, the fact that his contract perfectly ends at the same time as most of our roster, and that chemistry wise he is a perfect fit.
BayArea,
That would be unbelievable if that trade went through, in fact I could even see Houston buying out Finley to save some extra $$. I don’t know if Houston would be willing to do a straight salary dump but this still accomplishes the main thing of allowing the Rockets to have enough flexibility to resign Scola and still go after a Max Free Agent next offseason.
The main question is how much interest could they possibly have in Mr Matt Bonner? Hopefully I’m looking at this unbiasedly but I can talk myself into thinking that the Rockets would like Bonner for the same reasons the Spurs have kept him around, a decent role player that seems to be getting comfortable with his role (which would stay the same once Yao comes back)
The other potential problem is, for some reason I have in my head that Finley has some veto power in being traded, if someone knows for sure please clarify this.
August 16th, 2009 at 2:19 pm
I like Mason (like Duncan, and Parker, although not to the same extent, I find he’s under appreciated by Spurs fans), but I never said he was “a favorite of mine”, though he is more valuable than many think.
Hill will be the backup PG to a consensus top 3 PG in the league, so he’ll be at most a 15 mpg player. Mason is the starting SG, and due to the fragility of the one behind him, he’ll be asked to play a more significant role.
Mason is a young 29, with little wear and tear on his body because he hasn’t played 7-8 full NBA seasons with playoffs at 30 mpg+. Clearly, as witnessed last year, he’s still getting better and he works extremely hard.
Big time misconception by the majority of Spurs fans. The reality is Hill’s play had begun to slide before Pop pulled him from the rotation. He inability to run the point and near awful shooting were becoming liabilities. For the record, Bowen was still the Spurs best perimeter defender last season.
Jefferson and Finley will rarely play together, I suspect. Possibly in small ball alignments, but in terms of one sliding down to SG, it’s not likely very often. Finley no longer has the lateral quickness to stay with quick SG’s, and besides the Spurs boast nice depth at SG with Mason, Ginobili, Hairston, and Hill, all capable of playing there.
How can on one hand you trumpet Hill relentlessly, then on the other say “this trade would benefit us because it would allow us to better balance the roster by bringing in a 3rd PG”? If you’re so sold on him, then the Spurs should be fine at the point. If healthy, the Spurs have Parker, Hill, Mason, Ginobili, and possibly Williams, all capable of playing with the ball in their hands and initiating the offense. The fact that the front office has not prioritized 3rd PG means they’re confident in the latter 3 options, particularly Mason’s, development in that role.
August 16th, 2009 at 2:29 pm
Finley does have veto power, and I seriously doubt the Rockets would make that trade. The Spurs would likely have to throw in an asset of some value that the Rockets could keep, develop, and build with going forward, such as a 1st round pick, the rights to Splitter, or, if he shows anything in the first half of the season, Mahinmi.
Theoretically, it’d be awfully difficult to pass up that trade, but the problem would be how do you get proper minutes for the four man swing man rotation of Jefferson, Ginobili, Mason, and Battier? All are capable of finishing games, and outside of Mason, all definitely should be.
How can you bring Battier in for his defense, then say with 6 minutes left in a key playoff game “you’re not playing because we have Jefferson and Ginobili ahead of you”, wouldn’t that defeat the point of having him to guard the Bryant’s of the world?
Of course, if Jefferson could be counted on to handle Odom (seriously doubtful), then it could work against the Lakers, but then that leaves McDyess on the outside looking in. The reality is the Spurs have their closing five, and even if their is a move for a wing defender, I doubt it’s someone who compromises that five being intact to close out games. It would likely be a 2nd tier type, in the class of a Udoka, but by then Hairston may yet prove he’s in that class.
August 16th, 2009 at 4:13 pm
Cory,
While Battier is an upgrade over Mason, i don’t think its a “can’t pass out trade”. because of the following reasons:
Battier is a better defensive player but…
Mason is better on offense, has a more accurate shooting percentage
(specially on the wings and 3′s).
Defensively, we have to see first on what RJ/Hairston/Hill can do…
(individually, i think they’d do a decent job. Collectively, they might be great).
We have alot a of players that plays the ‘wing position’ Manu/Mason/Finley/RJ/Hairston/ and maybe even Hill or Williams for short stretches… So there is no enough minutes for Battier to show his value…
August 16th, 2009 at 4:24 pm
Here is my view of Roger Mason and George Hill in detail so that my words will no longer be twisted around.
Roger Mason-
A younger version of the Spur’s Michael Finley. Now when I say younger version of the Spur’s Michael Finley that is exactly, word for word, what I mean.
Not the Michael Finley that played for the Phoenix Suns or Dallas Mavericks that was an above average defender and athlete that could get to the rim at will.
No, I mean the Michael Finley that signed with the Spurs during the 05-06 offseason. The Finley that is a hard worker, very clutch shooter, and very professional, that is the player that Mason is a younger, faster version of. Roger Mason is a very solid pro, a solid role player, an excellent shooter, an average defender at best, and a player that has difficulty getting to the basket and difficulty finishing on the times that he does get to the basket.
George Hill-
Athletic combo guard, still developing a feel for the role of floor general, streak shooter with NBA 3pt range, has the ability to get to the basket but still has trouble consistently finishing.
Also potential to be a top of the line NBA defender with his quick instincts, active hands and active feet.
Now with that done, let me say that above all I am a fan of the SPURS and I want to see my favorite team win their 5th and 6th titles over the next two seasons.
When looking at our roster in comparison with the other rosters of contenders throughout the NBA the main fact that strikes me is that teams this past offseason have stocked their war chest and are ready for battle. Who will we face on our way to a championship? The Lakers, almost without a doubt. Possibly Denver, Portland, or the Mavs before that. In the Finals likely the Magic, Cavs or Celtics.
The thing about those teams is that they are all very different. Let’s take the two teams that were in the Finals last year the Magic and the Lakers, two teams that are almost completly different.
The Lakers are a team with a dominant perimeter player with a long list of athletic long post players.
The Magic are a team with a dominant post player with a long list of sharp shooting perimeter players.
We need to be able to have a roster that is able to match up with both of those teams and the development of George Hill or the acquisition of another elite perimeter defender and the acquisition of a player that can guard perimeter players and post players gives us the best chance to do so.
Against both of those teams a more developed George Hill could help us by helping slow down a Jameer Nelson or making Kobe work a little harder for his points. Or maybe we do to the Lakers what they did to us a ways back when we had Terry Porter running the show. Those of you that remember, will remember the Lakers full court pressing Porter making it almost impossible for the Spurs to get into their offense with enough time in the shot clock to get past their 1st or 2nd option. I know I would love to see the Spurs using that same tactic against Derek Fisher and then possibly forcing the Lakers to turn to either mainly using Shannon Browne, Farmar, or even Kobe to bring the ball up.
And then on top of that having a Battier type player giving Artest, Odom or Kobe problems. That’s a matchup I’d love to see.
Against Orlando a lineup of Dwight Howard surrounded by Vince Carter, Rashard Lewis, and Pietrus is another situation where I could see the option of having a Battier type player to match up against one of those players is much more helpful than what Mason would bring spotting up from outside.
And that’s the thing Battier is a player that you can throw at the Paul Pierces, Lebrons, and Kobe’s out their and also at times at the Carmelo’s, Rashard Lewis’s, and the Odom’s. That type of flexibility is what the Spurs are missing and having that type of flexibility is what will put the Spurs in their best position to still be playing in June.
August 16th, 2009 at 4:37 pm
Rye,
I agree with what you’re saying, my main concern with the Spurs roster as is, is the ability to guard the bigger 3/4 combo forwards.
That is why I am so fixated on Shane Battier, he is one of the only players out their that could potentially be available to us that gives us an answer to these potential problems.
If their are any other solutions out their let me know.
Or if you remember seeing the Bucks play against any of these teams and got to see how RJ handled Lewis, Carmelo, or Odom please let me know.
August 16th, 2009 at 4:48 pm
Good points Cory,
But I still think we need to see what we have as a team. Particularly RJ (he could turn out to be a decent/capable defender) and maybe Hairston to a lesser extent… Besides, this trade is all speculation… and as I said if needed, the Spurs could make a trade before the trade deadline. (we have to see on how it all pans out first).
Agree with your assessment of Hill and Mason… (but i do believe [hoping/wishing]) that he will improve on his major weaknesses as he is working on his core and agility this offseason.
I don’t totally disagree of acquiring Battier, but if we can get an elite defender (Bowen perhaps) without giving up much value, then thats the route i want to go…. defending the best players in the NBA is not a one mans job… I think collectively, the Spurs can get it done.
August 16th, 2009 at 5:23 pm
Yo Robby,
That last post I wrote was to you, and I wrote Rye’s name by mistake.
Yeah you’re right who knows what will be available at the trade deadline once these teams start really hurting if the economy doesnt bounce back quickly. So like you said waiting until the deadline might be the best route.
As for Bowen, I’m a little surprised that it seems like the Spurs have completly closed the door on that option. I honestly think if he was going to be back he would have been already, but what do I know. Maybe they have an arrangement with him and that’s why he hasnt signed anywhere else. Maybe the F.O. told him to hold tight until we clear up a spot for him or maybe until the season starts and they can decide between Marcus Williams or Malik Hairston.
Who knows their all possible options.
August 16th, 2009 at 6:10 pm
Cory,
You maybe right about Bowen because the only way he can re-sign with us is to free up a roster spot for him. There are alot of options out there and who knows when the time comes the players that we mentioned (Battier or Bowen) might end up playing for the Spurs…
As for RJ’s defensive ability, althought his lateral quickness slowed a bit, last seasons performance (defensive end) will not be an accurate reference because he has to take much of the Buck’s offensive load…
Now that he will be playing for the Spurs, I’m inclined to think that he will be better defensively (under Spurs great system and training staff), plus he doesn’t have to worry much on offense (he is our 4th or 3rd option at the most) and instead can focus more on playing D.
As a Spurs fan, we can only hope and wish the best for our great team… The San Antonio Spurs!
August 16th, 2009 at 7:32 pm
I think the days of San Antonio playing 4 on 5 while on offense ( anytime Bruce Bowen , Or Ime Udoka was in the game) are over.
Bruces hall-of-fame defense was at one time enough to overcome his one dimensionality, but hes not the same anymore.
I dont see pop agreeing to take Bruce Back. Hed never see the court.
August 16th, 2009 at 7:36 pm
Im anxious to see what Jefferson, Hairston( and perhaps Haislip) can do in the place of Bruce and Udoka.
August 16th, 2009 at 8:11 pm
I’m also eager to see on what RJ, Hairston and yes Haislip (i think he can guard the Lewis, Dirk and the Odoms) can bring into the Spurs defense…
Bowen is a sentimental choice (he is a true Spur).
And eventhough he’s not the same, I honestly think he can still be of great help on the defensive end (say 10-15 mins…). But right now its unlikely that the Spurs will bring him back…
August 16th, 2009 at 8:50 pm
Rye,
I don’t really see how you can back up this quote of yours: “[Hill's] ultimate upside is that of a 20-25 mpg third guard who can play lock down defense at either guard position and provide adequate offense.”
Ultimate upside? That’s ridiculous, nobody knows what his ultimate upside is. Remember people were far from sold on Parker and that’s one guy whose “ultimate upside” we still don’t know for sure…
Maybe you think Spurs fans in general overrate Hill, but you’re seriously dissing him for no reason in my view. And funnily enough I fully see him as a potential All-Star some years down the line.
August 16th, 2009 at 10:33 pm
I agree george hill will become as good as tony parker in the next few seasons and will see an all star game soon enough.I just can’t wait for the new season to begin! Hopefully school starting will take my mind off being a die hard spurs fan.
August 16th, 2009 at 10:45 pm
I really think Haislip is going to be a big surrise for us this year. Alot to prove, Fairly young, Very athletic. I don’t think he would be here, if the FO didn’t think he could slow down the Odom, Dirk, Lebron.
August 16th, 2009 at 11:31 pm
Vince Carter 6-6 220 Either Marcus Williams 6-7 207 or Richard Jefferson 6-7 225
Pietrus- Same
Lebron James 6-8 250! Either Richard Jefferson 6-7 225 or Marcus Haislip 6-10 230
Rashard Lewis 6-10 225 Either Marcus Haislip 6-10 230 or Theo Ratliff 6-10 235 or Bonner 6-10 245
Lamar Odom 6-10 230 Either Marcus Haislip 6-10 230 ( Same specs… Interesting) or Theo Ratliff 6-10 235
Dwight Howard 6-11 265 Either Dejaun Blair 6-7 265 ( I think this will be a really interesting matchup) or Ian Mahinmi 6-11 245 or Antonio McDyess 6-9 245
Pau Gasol 7-0 250 Either Ian Mahinmi 6-11 245 or Antonio McDyess 6-9 245 or Dejuan Blair 6-7 265 might be able to keep Gasol out of position with his weight advantage.Then of course Duncan always loves to match up with Gasol.
Andrew Bynum 7-0 285 Either Ian Mahinmi 6-11 245 or Dejuan Blair 6-7 265 but hopefully Duncan can keep him in check.
I also think Ian Mahinmi would make a good matchup for Dirk 7-0 245
We look to be alot more balanced this year.
Any of these matchups look out of place?
August 17th, 2009 at 12:57 am
Spurs are good. We will score points. It’s a novel approach. Get used to it. Duke sucks?
Pop has obviously c0mmitted to shooters in favor of perimeter defenders. Let’s watch.
August 17th, 2009 at 2:22 pm
Cory Clay,
Good, detailed write up. I’ve been worried about the Spurs’ inability to matchup with athletic, long combo forward for years, but am not sure Battier is the answer. He’s listed at 6’8” 220, and Jefferson is listed at 6’7” 225, but is supposedly actually 6’7” barefoot (which is rare for NBA players to have their actual size without shoes as their listing) and is 6’8” in shoes. Basically, he’s about as tall, and at least as strong as Battier. Pop also claimed he gave the Spurs, at long last, a big wing who can post up smaller guys on one end, and defend the post well (presumably without help) on the other.
I’ve never bought the whole “Hill effectively guarding Bryant” logic because he has a 6’9” wingspan. Bryant is like the Duncan of perimeter players; he’s too smart a player and far too skilled/fundamentally sound to fall prey to a guy he can easily post or shoot up over the top of. Hill may be able to give a guy like a Carter fits, but not Bryant.
As for pressing Fisher full court, I completely agree, and would love to see the Spurs do that with Hill for a stretch or two each game when playing the Lakers, but not in the regular season. Save it for the playoffs. Jackson will obviously adjust, but maybe it’s something that takes them out of their offense periodically and contributes to winning a playoff game or two, ala Hunter being sicced on Udrih in the ’05 Finals, and making the Spurs have to play with Ginobili/Barry as a back court tandem when Parker was resting.
Back to Battier, though. Like I said, as good a perimeter defender as he is for the likes of Bryant, James, Pierce, Carter, etc., who are you sitting out to finish playoff games at the expense of having him out there, is it Jefferson or Ginobili? It just doesn’t make sense. Let’s see if Jefferson can adequately defend these types first. With what the Spurs are paying him, there’s no question he will be finishing games.
August 17th, 2009 at 2:31 pm
Will,
of course technically there’s no way any of us can know Hill’s ultimate upside, but I watched him play all last year, and have watched the game for years and like to think I know how to project players. I’d be downright shocked if Hill were to be anything more than what I said he’d become (which is a solid player). I just think it’s been a long time since Spurs fans saw an athletic rookie who could contribute some right off the bat, and because the team was filled with unathletic geezers on their way down/out, many ended up overrating Hill in the process, because he was different from the norm. Calling Hill a future All-Star is downright delusional hommerism. Not a chance. This isn’t baseball or football where half the league makes it in their career.
I forgot to mention something in my last post. We’re all thinking about the Spurs from a defensive perspective because we’ll all so used to them having a razor thin margin for error against top opposition and having to win with defense, but this team, at least on paper, shapes up to be different from that. Sure, Pop will preach defense, but the Spurs now have an abundance of weapons that other teams will have to worry about, so if they have trouble covering a guy like Bryant, for example, they may still win because they’ll have enough firepower on the other end.
August 17th, 2009 at 4:03 pm
About Hill, last season he had shown promise to be a solid NBA player, I think he is more a defensive type of guy, although offensively he can knock 3′s, slash to the basket and finish with authority…
On early parts of last season, (specialy with TP went out with injury) Hill proved that he is also a capable scorer (if I remember correctly he has 3 straight 20 point games)…
As far as how good he can be, we don’t know yet for sure maybe give the guy 2-3 more years then we’ll have a better assessment. For now, I think the Spurs would be happy enough if he can provide 15-20 solid minutes of PG duty…
August 17th, 2009 at 5:12 pm
Hill still has a lot to prove at the NBA level, but throughout the season he has to prove some kind of consistency coming in and backing up Tony Parker. However I love the man’s athletic ability, something that may not exactly help his point guard skills and court vision and basketball IQ, but something that sure doesn’t hurt either.
I agree with Rye, I don’t think its necessarily going to be about defense wins games. If you look at a lot of our games, we held our opponents to 90-95 points, but couldn’t score enough to win.
And usually scoring 100+ points is a good thing for the Spurs.
August 17th, 2009 at 5:56 pm
On the Spurs, although we still emphasize defense (Pop does this all the time).
This team will be a little different, we now have enough fire power to outscore opponents but at the same time slow them down playing D. So i’d say we have more balance right now….
(Last season the Spurs, tried this approach giving extended minutes to Bonner and Mason)….
But now we have more weapons with addition of RJ, Dice, Blair and Ian and Haislip (to a lesser extent)
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