The biggest question facing the Spurs
Chanel recently launched an ad campaign with plus-sized model Crystal Renn. The promise of the fashion house, or so it would seem, was to capture the outer charm of Christina Hendricks in a tasteful still frame or two. But when the campaign launched, there wasn’t much of anything plus-sized about it. Renn was captured from the shoulders up, and any suggestion of plus-sizes was  left in the public relations office.
This is how I felt about the San Antonio Spurs’ last season. During training camp 2009, Gregg Popovich vowed a return to defensive form, wanting his team to get back to the top of the NBA’s defensive rankings. But the Spurs never got there. The Spurs weren’t plus-sized; they weren’t even fat-faced. Â The promise of a defensive return to form fell flat from Day 1.
Now, of course, Gregg Popovich is not Karl Lagerfeld. There is no doubt that Popovich preached defense as ardently and sincerely as ever before–his intentions were true. The Spurs’ defensive failures were not bound up in a disingenuous promise. The Spurs failed because they didn’t have the right personnel to meet Popovich’s defensive demands. And this was true across the roster–it wasn’t simply a problem of Richard Jefferson’s inability to recreate Bruce Bowen.
The Spurs’ signing of Tiago Splitter will help their front court. Splitter’s ability to defend the pick and roll is well-documented. Â But what else have the Spurs done to upgrade their defensive personnel?
This is me pleading ignorance, not protesting the team’s offseason. Neither James Anderson nor Gary Neal nor Matt Bonner nor Richard Jefferson nor Alonzo Gee are defensive specialists, at least they’re not billed that way. Tim Duncan is a year older. DeJuan Blair is still short. Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili give great effort, but are, generally put, offensive players. Garrett Temple was a good defender in limited minutes last season, and he is the one “new” face on the perimeter whose defensive abilities put a little pollyanna in this blogger.
In addition to the absence of capable defensive personnel, the Spurs lacked quality perimeter shooters last season. The front office seems to have addressed the issue of shooting this offseason, but left their die hard faithful with questions about their the team’s overall defensive ability. So, in short, the big question facing the Spurs this season is whether Popovich can make good on his ambition to return the Spurs to the top of the league’s defensive rankings, a year later than he had originally planned. And if so, who will emerge as San Antonio’s go-to defensive specialist(s)?
I agree, there’s is still much to be desired. The report that the Spurs are looking at tough defender Chris Kramer is a good start, but he’s a 6’3″ combo guard, not a 6’8″ wing defender. The Spurs need to begin to groom a defensive go to guy because we are hurting without a Bowen in our deck of cards.
We’ll never be able to recreate the suffocating defensives of old, simply because Timmy is old and Bowen and Robinson are gone. However, we can get back into the upper realm of defensive teams this year. Let me explain.
With the addition of Splitter, Timmy now doesn’t have to leave the low post on D. Any combination of Splitter/Blair/Dice/Bonner with Tim allows him to stay down low. He’s our best low post defender anyways, and since his P&P D has slipped, he’ll be maximizing his strengths and minimizing his weaknesses. Basically, Splitter is a much more talented Oberto, who fit alongside Timmy extremely well.
Hill is already a solid defender of PG’s and SG’s. Tony and Manu can hold their own and Temple has shown flashes in limited minutes.
Our weakness now is SF. Of course, with Bowen gone, the SF spot will always be our weakness. I do have faith in Jefferson this year. I think he’s realized what it takes to be a part of a TEAM. He’s got the long term contract signed, he’s not worried about money, and I think he concentrates on being the 4th banana. I think his numbers stay about the same, but his consistancy sky-rockets. I also think that he exerts himself more on D. I think he could be a capable defender, especially once he trusts the other 4 guys to have his back.
Keys to defensive success this year:
1. Keep Timmy off the P&P as much as possible.
2. Splitter has to be Oberto + 25%.
3. Manu and Tony can’t regress.
4. Hill improves 10%.
5. Blair improves 20% by watching film of Ben Wallace guarding Shaq in the 2004 Finals.
6. Jefferson ups his defensive intensity by 25%.
7. The SF back-up (Anderson, Gee) just can’t suck.
These are very small things that can be easily accomplished. When added together, I think they can make a huge impact.
I actually don’t think teams need a perimeter defensive specialist. Last year’s Celtics mostly played their starting 5 and did fine.
For the perimeter players, I think teams just need one elite defender and no liabilities. In the big man rotation, two shot-blockers are probably enough.
Timmy’s not as agile as he was, but he can still disrupt shots. Him, Tiago, and George could be enough for a good defense.
“who will emerge as San Antonio’s go-to defensive specialist(s)?”
Answer: George Hill will be the next defensive specialist.
Go Spurs Go!!!
No fellas.
Doesnt matter how open minded and optimistic we try to be…
This roster is actually wore than last years initial roster.
Bogans and Mason ended up sucking but at least they were veterans. Now we have Anderson and Neal? What?
Lets just hope that they are the second comming.
Realistically,
How in the basketball world does this roster even come close to being correct?
Why is nobody adressing the issue?
Whats wrong with asking “Why the Spurs cant seem to bring in quality role players”? Who is making the decisions, and why?
Ive heard many trase scenarios and they all sucked.
Now Denver is ready to move Martin, Anthony, and Smith…
Spurs yawn with disinterest? Why?
Is Bonner more of a player than K Mart?
I wont even mention Carmello, Its obvious…
JR Smith would be immediately the best 2 guard on the roster behind Ginnobli…Hands down…
Spurs fans are being hoodwiked and under estimated…Organization thinkgs that its fan base is peaceful and uncaring to an extent and passive. Wont make waves, wont cause problems…
I hope they are wrong…
Keep bringing in bums, fans should cancel season tickets, stop going to games and demand change….
Whos in:)
Coaches are mostly over rated anyway. THis definately includes Pop.
Doesnt matter how good a coach thinks he is…If he doesnt have the talent, he wont succeed.
Spurs dont have the personnel to return to the NBA defensive elite status…Havent for some time now.
and,
Instead of going out and getting the missing pieces,
We sign more wanna-be’s……….
From the main post:
“The Spurs failed because they didn’t have the right personnel to meet Popovich’s defensive demands.”…….
…..This is me pleading ignorance, not protesting the team’s offseason.”…….
But Tim, the initial quote of you above indicates that you recognize that the lack of strong enough “D” last year was at least partially a personnel issue. Then you spend much of the post questioning whether we made much of an advance in this regard during the off-season. But then mixed in there is the second quote above, backing away from criticizing the FO for not upgrading their “defensive” personnel enough during the off-season. I don’t think it hurts if you indulge yourself from time to time in questioning the FO’s player personnel moves on occasion (or lack thereof). Sure, you might be wrong, the FO probably knows what they’re doing on this issue, but they’re not ALWAYS right. Why not question them sometimes? Why weren’t we able to make even one solid acquisition by trade or the FA market? And for example, why no sign & trade efforts to get a guy like Amundson, whose energy & defense we could really use? Now, maybe efforts were made, but I certainly haven’t heard anything about it. And it makes sense for Amundson to do a sign & trade, which would also ostensibly make our lack of cap space less of an issue.
…….So, in short, the big question facing the Spurs this season is whether Popovich can make good on his ambition to return the Spurs to the top of the league’s defensive rankings, a year later than he had originally planned. And if so, who will emerge as San Antonio’s go-to defensive specialist(s)?”
Yeah, that is a big question, and I don’t see how our off-season moves gets us there. Who’s going to emerge defensively enough to get us up into the top five defensively as a team? I simply don’t see an answer with the personnel that we have. And I don’t see us with a shot at a WCF appearance without a top-five defensive ranking.
ThatBigGuy
August 27th, 2010 at 8:55 am
“Basically, Splitter is a much more talented Oberto, who fit alongside Timmy extremely well.”
Timmy was way better defensively 3-4 years ago when he was playing with Oberto. And for that matter, Manu & TP are older as well, and plus we no longer have Bowen & Horry. And we don’t yet know how good Splitter will be at the NBA level. Better than Oberto? Probably. How much better? Nobody knows for sure.
“Hill is already a solid defender of PG’s and SG’s. Tony and Manu can hold their own and Temple has shown flashes in limited minutes.”
Hill still needs to make considerable improvement. He got torched often by the Suns. TP is not a strong man-defender, and Manu’s now 33, and unlikely to get stronger defensively. Temple’s “flashes” in extremely limited minutes is not a lot to count on.
“Our weakness now is SF.”
We are not strong enough inside OR on the wing.
“I do have faith in Jefferson this year.”
Yeah, faith is all one has with RJ at this point. Good luck with that.
“Keys to defensive success this year:”
Accomplishing that whole list is a lot more difficult than you think, and it still might not be enough for a trip to the WCF’s.
ruth bader ginobili
August 27th, 2010 at 9:40 am
“Him, Tiago, and George could be enough for a good defense.”
Unlikely to be good enough for a WCF’s appearance.
ITGuy
August 27th, 2010 at 10:10 am
“Answer: George Hill will be the next defensive specialist.”
Keep dreaming.
From my previous post in the “San Antonio Spurs defensive principles” article.
The main problem in the team’s defensive decline is of course not having Bruce in his prime….a younger more mobile Duncan…and the missing presense of great weak side help role players like Horry, Nesterovic (I can’t believe I said that), Oberto and Kevin Willis.
That pretty much summed up Spurs defense. Forcing players baseline into clogatorium (new word) and sufficating perimeter close out.
And the system has worked great as long as it had the players to execute it’s demanding level.
Ever wonder why the Spurs have never been (offensively) a great close out team at the end of games? It’s because they have expended so much energy on defense throughout the entire game their legs have nothing left to make even an easy shot. It’s simple physics. For every action there is an opposite and equal reaction.
But also…after this amount of time and success…ways will be figured out to exploit one’s weaknesses. Opposing coaches are finding out ways to beat the once dominant Spurs defense not only through attrition of the players they once had…but through study and finding the cracks to penetrate.
It’s going to take very gifted, talented and youthful replacements to help bring that kind of defensive dominance back up to championship quality. But it’s also going to take ingenuity and game time adjustments to keep it going at a high level to combat the ever present changes opposing coaches are implementing to beat the system.
I think one of the reasons we are seeing the team aquire more offensive talented players than defensive talented players is because it’s probably looking to seal the penetration of teams who have somewhat figured out how to beat the defensive system with offensive prowness. And I think Pop (though he would never publicly admit it) knows this team with the players they have now could never be the effective defensive team they had in the past. So in essence…another way to slow down an opposing team from scoring more is forcing them to play defense as well.
But if the team can revert back to it’s defensive hey day…I’d be one happy camper. But seeing a more potent offensive team would be rewarding to watch as well.
It looks like we will be able to handle challenges from the PF/C positions, and we can handle point guards. The problem is that we don’t have an answer for the scoring 3, which is the West goes by the name of Kobe Bryant. Sadly RJ is the player responsible for this defensive task and not he, nor many, can at least slow Kobe. So if we cannot find a way to stop Kobe from scoring, we need to find a way to balance the scales. We need to find ways to score against Kobe and hopefully tire him out and hurt confidence on the other end of the court.
rob
August 27th, 2010 at 11:00 am
“The main problem in the team’s defensive decline is of course not having Bruce in his prime….a younger more mobile Duncan…and the missing presense of great weak side help role players like Horry, Nesterovic (I can’t believe I said that), Oberto and Kevin Willis.”
Yes, that’s basically correct.
“And I think Pop (though he would never publicly admit it) knows this team with the players they have now could never be the effective defensive team they had in the past. So in essence…another way to slow down an opposing team from scoring more is forcing them to play defense as well.”
Valid point, but certainly not a way to get back to championship level performance. We can’t duplicate the “D” of the teams in the past, but we should be pulling out all stops to come close, even if the personnel configuration is modified to some extent. And going after a guy like Amundson would have been a big step in the right direction. Instead, all we got is former draft pick Splitter coming over. Not enough to solidify the “D” sans Bowen, and with an aging core.
Ballhog’s plan to return to elite defensive status is to get JR Smith and Carmelo Anthony. Glad I checked 48MOH today, I needed a laugh.
“And if so, who will emerge as San Antonio’s go-to defensive specialist(s)?”
Surely we aren’t looking for 1 player to remedy our defensive lapses. The days of having a Bruce Bowen defender who is a beast on defense but can’t create on the offensive end are over. Teams simply have too much firepower for the Spurs to essentially play 4-on-5 when they are on the offensive end. The answer is not to have one designated “defensive specialist” in the Bruce Bowen mold.
The answer, IMO, is to have virtually the entire team step up their dedication on the defensive end.
I’m not a great basketball player, but what I have discovered is that defense is entirely mental (as long as you have the athletic/physical capabilities). We have an athletic team so our physical capabilities should be adequate to keep up with the competition (outside of Duncan’s continued decline). What we lacked was the mental dedication on the defensive end to lock in on opponents. Players like Tony and RJ must do a better job against perimeter penetration. They have the speed, size, and quickness to be good defenders. They simply need to do a combination of the following:
1) Spend more time in the film room
2) Lock in for the entire 24 second shot clock
3) Understand the strengths and weaknesses of the player you are defending
4) Better understand the strengths and weaknesses of your team defense.
These aren’t revolutionary concepts, but the fact that we are discussing the weakness of our team defense is proof that more work must be done in these areas. Again, having a defensive “ace” that is only effective on one end of the floor will not beat the elite basketball teams of 2010. We need numerous players on the team to actually be dedicated to defense in the same way the players of the Celtics and Lakers were during their recent playoff runs.
@ Jim
“Accomplishing that whole list is a lot more difficult than you think, and it still might not be enough for a trip to the WCF’s.”
Having each player improve incrementally is difficult? I disagree. Team defense is going to be paramount, and if each guy improves just a little defensively, the team D is going to get better.
Here’s my logic: We know it’s the job of the wing players to funnel the ball handler toward the baseline. Let’s say Hill gets a little better at this and Jefferson tries a little bit harder at this. Duncan, an elite low post defender who is still 7 feet tall, is there to cut off the baseline because Oberto 2.0 is in the high post defending the P&R big man.
I’m genuinely excited about the opportunity for my favorite players to take it on themselves to improve their game enough to have the TEAM improve. I’m excited to see how Jefferson reacts this year. I’m excited to see if Blair put down the autotune longe enough to gain a 15 foot jumper this summer. I’m excited to see if Hill can finish his evolution into a lock down defender. I’m excited to see if Splitter can make a run at ROY.
I’m just excited about our potential.
I guess my argument is “Well, if they do…” and yours is “Well, if they don’t…” Two ways to look at it…
Hobson13
“The answer, IMO, is to have virtually the entire team step up their dedication on the defensive end.”
Hence… IMO…the Spurs have elected to acquire the youth it has. Not so much that they are outstanding in any area of play…but more so that they are hungry to play in the nba and the coaching staff probably visualizes them being more receptive to the defensive strategy and implementation more so than acquiring a vet who might be close minded to the idea knowing they can always either get cut or move on later to another team. I know that’s some what a gamble…but big business does it all the time in hiring youth over experience so that they can be taught more easily in doing it their way.
“Surely we aren’t looking for 1 player to remedy our defensive lapses. The days of having a Bruce Bowen defender who is a beast on defense but can’t create on the offensive end are over.”
I totally agree with this comment. Today’s nba teams have far too many offensive options than it used to have in the past. So shutting down just one player isn’t necessarily going to negate a team’s ability to score as it used too.
“These aren’t revolutionary concepts, but the fact that we are discussing the weakness of our team defense is proof that more work must be done in these areas.”
Again…I totally agree. But players like Tony and RJ are those virtuo vets I just mentioned. Tony isn’t that bad when he puts forth the effort at playing defense. But as I pointed out before…is Tony there for his defensive prowness or scoring ability? If Parker is “made” to play more effective defense…his effectiveness at scoring probably will deminish.
But if the team (across the board) can be more consistent in it’s scoring ability…then Tony would not need to be the effective scorer he has been given carte blanc to be.
Your point is valid. Getting all the components to function as one will be the critical aspect. All the players knowing they can (and will) have each others back at any given time both defensively and offensively will be the truest tesitament of this team.
Jim Henderson
August 27th, 2010 at 10:35 am
“Yeah, that is a big question, and I don’t see how our off-season moves gets us there. Who’s going to emerge defensively enough to get us up into the top five defensively as a team? I simply don’t see an answer with the personnel that we have.”
According to Hollinger’s defensive efficiency ratings, the Spurs were #9 last year at 102.0. Boston was #5 at 101.1 (and Charlotte was #1 at 100.2). A difference of 0.9 between the Spurs and #5 does not seem to be an insurmountable difference to overcome. If Splitter, Jefferson, Hill and Temple improve the Spurs’ team defense, I could see them having a top 5 defense (or close to it) statistically this year.
@Hobson13,
“Surely we aren’t looking for 1 player to remedy our defensive lapses. The days of having a Bruce Bowen defender who is a beast on defense but can’t create on the offensive end are over.â€
I would have to vehemently disagree with that statement.
The last 6 NBA Champions had such a player!! Their names are Bruce Bowen, James Posey, Ron Artest, and Trevor Ariza. Limited offensively but tenacious defensively.
rob
August 27th, 2010 at 12:45 pm
“But as I pointed out before…is Tony there for his defensive prowness or scoring ability? If Parker is “made†to play more effective defense…his effectiveness at scoring probably will deminish.”
I agree. Tony’s main job for the past several years has been to orchestrate the offense. Defense has not been his main priority. It’s like you say, if he were to put more effort into the defensive end, his offensive numbers would suffer. However, I think we could make up for his offensive numbers as a team.
“But if the team (across the board) can be more consistent in it’s scoring ability…then Tony would not need to be the effective scorer he has been given carte blanc to be.”
Rob, I think this can be done. We have 3 players that can consistently go for 20+/game as long as they’re healthy. We have 3 others (Hill, Jefferson, and Blair) who can score anywhere from 10-18 ppg. We really don’t need Tony to shoulder the bulk of the offensive load like we did 2 years ago. I really needs to be distributed more evenly between the Big 3 and their support players.
Great article, however I disagree in labeling Manu as an offensive player, many statistics show he is one of the top 5 perimeter defenders in the league. I wouldn´t be surprised that as he gets older transitions into a defensive specialist with great three point shooting and passing skills.
George Hill can be a great defender, but lacks the height to defend bigger 2 and 3s.
Overall, with the addition of Splitter, a healthy Manu, a wiser Hill, the spurs can be one of the top defending teams, however, there is a big void in the three spot, which RJ can´t really fill.
Wow…I never thought I’d read a basketball post that referenced Chanel and Lagerfeld…
Hobson13
August 27th, 2010 at 11:36 am
“The answer, IMO, is to have virtually the entire team step up their dedication on the defensive end.”
Sure, that’s always what a defensive-minded coach preaches, but you do have to have the right types of players in terms of talent, experience, and attitude to make such exhortations have any chance of success. As currently constructed, I doubt our personnel meets the minimum level of talent, experience, & attitude needed in this regard. But your general principle as quoted above has to be stressed, and just maybe we’ll get lucky.
“We have an athletic team …….”
Compared to the rest of the league, really, pretty average, or slightly above average, in my opinion.
“What we lacked was the mental dedication on the defensive end to lock in on opponents.”
That is true, but that’s not always teachable.
“We need numerous players on the team to actually be dedicated to defense in the same way the players of the Celtics and Lakers were during their recent playoff runs.”
Again, I do agree with your basic point, I just have my doubts that we have the necessary personnel to make “significant” strides this year on the defensive end, which is something we MUST do to have a decent chance of getting as far as a WCF appearance.
ThatBigGuy
August 27th, 2010 at 12:39 pm
“Having each player improve incrementally is difficult?”
All of them in the same year, yes.
“I’m genuinely excited about the opportunity for my favorite players to take it on themselves to improve their game enough to have the TEAM improve. I’m excited to see how Jefferson reacts this year. I’m excited to see if Blair put down the autotune longe enough to gain a 15 foot jumper this summer. I’m excited to see if Hill can finish his evolution into a lock down defender. I’m excited to see if Splitter can make a run at ROY.”
There are some possibilities that offer some hope, and that is exciting. But always banking on the positive scenarios is not realistic. I’m just more naturally a business person and an analyst than I am a cheerleader. You make valid points, but they generally tend to focus on more rosy scenarios. There’s nothing wrong with that as long as you accept disappointment well.
Mike T
August 27th, 2010 at 1:38 pm
“A difference of 0.9 between the Spurs and #5 does not seem to be an insurmountable difference to overcome.”
Actually, .9 is a pretty big difference. It’s the difference between being #5 and being #1. Also, you’re making the assumption that others in the top ten won’t improve, like OKC, LA, Boston, Miami, Milwaukee, & Orlando, which is probably unlikely.
I think the spurs need one more big. Bowen was as good as it gets on the perimeter d but whenever he got beet he had 2 shot blockers behind him. Now if you look at the spurs D they just give up way too many lay ups. Sorry Duncan is not nearly the low post defender he once was he’s a step slower and isn’t jumping nearly as well. For the Spurs to have a chance next year Splitter has to be a defensive force in other words he must be a better defender then Duncan that way Duncan is a solid #2 shot blocker. I think we have plenty of scoring options so therefore trading Parker should given serious consideration for a serious defensive big. Then the Spurs slow the game down to a half court game and execute better in the half court offense. I mean that’s what killed me watching that Phoenix sereis, the Suns were able to score at will in the 4th in the half court set. Man take me back to the days when the Spurs struggled to score down the stretch but it was ok because I knew the other team couldn’t score and if they did it was an extremelly difficult shot.
Hobson13
August 27th, 2010 at 3:07 pm
“However, I think we could make up for his offensive numbers as a team.”
I agree. We need EVERYONE committed on the defensive end, and that includes TP. If players would work hard enough on conditioning they could still be very effective at both ends. Plenty of players have before, and others are still doing it.
“We really don’t need Tony to shoulder the bulk of the offensive load like we did 2 years ago. I really needs to be distributed more evenly between the Big 3 and their support players.”
That’s right.
lvmainman
August 27th, 2010 at 3:01 pm
“The last 6 NBA Champions had such a player!! Their names are Bruce Bowen, James Posey, Ron Artest, and Trevor Ariza. Limited offensively but tenacious defensively.”
We might need a player or two to stick out, but we don’t necessarily need a Bowen-type stopper. Artest was important for LA last year, but their entire team played pretty strong and solid “D”
lvmainman
August 27th, 2010 at 3:01 pm
“The last 6 NBA Champions had such a player!! Their names are Bruce Bowen, James Posey, Ron Artest, and Trevor Ariza. Limited offensively but tenacious defensively.”
Ron Artest and Trevor Ariza are both superior offensive players compared to Bruce Bowen. You may have a point with Posey, however he played for the Celtics two years ago. The game of basketball is evolving before our eyes. The rise and/or evolution of the super teams (Celtics, Lakers, Heat, and Magic) and other young-up-and-coming teams (Bulls, Thunder, maybe Portland and Houston) are making the one way players obsolete. There are simply too many players who are decent defenders AND decent offensive players to go into a game with someone who is excellent at just one end of the court. Besides, unlike a number of years ago in the NBA, all of these teams have MULTIPLE wing players who can score. So simply having one great wing defender won’t cut it.
We must rely not on the outstanding efforts of a great defender, but upon the entire defensive system of players who can both defend well and score. We (and everyone else) need two way players more in the mold of Artest and Ariza (without Artest’s insanity of course).
I think Ruth Bader Ginobili nailed it.
“I actually don’t think teams need a perimeter defensive specialist. Last year’s Celtics mostly played their starting 5 and did fine.”
Having a Bruce “Kung Fu” Bowen is great but heres how I see it.
If we raise the collective IQ of our team Defense through both instinctive skills and continued time invested in the system we can shave a few more % points off the statistics that matter.
I think we fall in love unnecessarily with perimeter stoppers. Great team D is about making great decisions. Channel penetration to your help, rotate correctly, stay at home on the corner 3, keep your feet on the ground, close out hard etc.
How quick the young guys get this will be important but guys like RJ & Blair should benefit simply from having time in the system, and having another legitimate 7 foot guy who can defend the pick and roll will be outstanding.
DaveMan77
August 27th, 2010 at 3:19 pm
Solid assessment. That’s why even getting a guy like Amundson, one the leagues better shot-blockers, could have made a big difference on this team.
Jim I don’t disagree that Amundsons talented, but do you really see the minutes for him on this team?
I can see it now,
Against the Lakers, Pop trots out Temple or Anderson, or Neal to guard Kobe. I can imagine the look on Kobe’s face. I can imagine the look on the ref’s face when one of those three feels he should have gotten a call. Really, get a call in this league? This season? Really…
Guys, not trying to be overly critical, but I agree with previous posters in that this roster just wont get it done.
Seriously, OKC, Portland, Dallas, Houston, LA, Denver, Memphis, to name a few…and we go in to the season with this roster? Really?
A veteran back up center and a back up for Jefferson are critical pieces.
Of course, if we get a guy to spell RJ, that guy MUST be a defender.
He must have size and length, and he NEEDS to have a nasty streak. This player (who ever he may be) is critical for the Spurs.
Besides, the only way for Pop to truly be able to rely on these young players is to give them sufficient minutes.
We all know how this coach is about playing young players.
It all just smells a bit…
Doubt all you want. I see the transformation of good defense (not great) combined with offensive potentcy as a real substinant to this team making a run in the playoffs.
Pop and staff…I believe…are not subsequent enough in their own beliefs to think they can formulate a team that depends on the ways of the past to perpetuate them into the champions of tomorrow.
This league is changing. The way to win is changing. I like our chances with who we have if the style of play is changed as well to accomodate the talent at hand. To expect the same without adding what worked in the past is of course ludicrous. Talent is talent…if you don’t have it…you don’t go far. But the Spurs do have talent in their big three. Support talent at levels not warranted in the past 3 years has been accumilating.
I like the chances based on who we have now. Would it be great if substantial talent were acquired?….of course. But there’s something to say about the Spurs ability to find such talent when nobody took a chance.
Parker, Ginobili, Blair. And now Splitter and Anderson.
Less not forget…the Spurs have been one of the top teams in the NBA to acquire substantial talent. Some of them traded on to become significant for the teams they play on today. And some still here keeping the Spurs significant in playoff contention.
A signing of a defensive stopper would be nice compared to yester years. But a more balanced team both offensively and defensively is what I’ve been wanting for some time.
This years team has the personnel to achieve that balance. Maybe not in experience…but definately in potential.
Bushka
August 27th, 2010 at 4:04 pm
“Jim I don’t disagree that Amundsons talented, but do you really see the minutes for him on this team?”
Yeah, I do. It would make the most sense to include McDyess in a sign & trade with the Suns (and perhaps Gee or a draft pick if necessary). The Suns have a small and/or inexperienced front line. That team’s going nowhere with that front line. McDyess would give them some veteran toughness and depth on their front line, and is pretty good at hitting the mid-range jumper in a Suns transition offense. In that case:
TD – 28 mpg
Blair – 24
Splitter – 24
AND
Amundson & Bonner – 12 & 8 respectively –
depending on the situation and matchups – in some cases I would sit Bonner, particularly if our other 3-point shooters are doing well, and boost Amundson’s minutes up to 18 or so. And of course, we should rest Duncan as much as possible, in which case the minutes for the other bigs would all go up. Amundson is a different player than McDyess, but is an overall upgrade, and is 9 years younger.
If we couldn’t unload McDyess (I don’t mean this pejoratively – I like Dice), than I would turn Bonner and/or McDyess into situational bigs, depending on front line injury status, the matchups, and perhaps some minutes during some of TD’s rest days.
Anyway you look at it, I would still get another big for our front line, even if I had to go for an LLE or vet min. guy like Mbenga or Boone. They can battle McDyess & Bonner for minutes, and they would help with size in certain matchups. But then gain, I wouldn’t have signed Bonner for 4 mil. either.
McDyess > Amundson. Seriously, you practically made the point yourself, Mr. Henderson:
“McDyess would give them some veteran toughness and depth on their front line, and is pretty good at hitting the mid-range jumper.”
Toughness and front line depth would be the purpose of getting Amundson in the first place. For such few minutes per game, I’d rather take a mid-range shooting threat, who is also a solid rebounder and defender, over a rebounding threat, who is also a solid defender (the few points he scores are largely attributed to his offensive rebounding). Oh, he’s also undersized for his position. Thus, he’s basically a much less talented Blair.
My point is, I would not trade McDyess for Amundson. All the Spurs need is another god-awful free throw shooter.
rob
August 27th, 2010 at 5:39 pm
“I see the transformation of good defense (not great) combined with offensive potentcy as a real substinant to this team making a run in the playoffs.”
“This league is changing. The way to win is changing.”
Sure, the league is dynamic, but there’s no evidence that a secular trend change is going on as to what are the most important facets of the game that a team must be strong in to have a shot at winning a championship. The fact is, unless you have two or three mega potent and dominant offensive studs (meaning durable young/in prime) on your team, you’re going to need a top-five “D” to have any realistic shot at a championship (unless you have a freak of nature like Shaq on the 2006 Heat – and that’s just one exception out of the last 12 years). Our best offensive players are 33 & 34 years old, are in the relatively early stages of descent, and have had some injury issues in the past couple of years. We are a good offensive team, but we are not a top five offensive team either, and are unlikely to get there anytime soon. We need to be a top-five defensive team to challenge — period.
Not only that, but Pop is more suited to coaching a team that wins with “D”. That’s when he’s the most special, and the most comfortable. And there’s no reason not to continue to draft & make acquisitions with “D” high on the checklist. Granted, each incarnation is going to be different than before, but that doesn’t mean that we can’t become a great defensive team again, and we should try to do so. Maybe we end up morphing into a 2004 Piston’s type “D”, and that of course would be fine. But there’s no reason to focus more on our offense. We will not win a title with a better offense and only a top-ten “D”. The Spurs pedigree during the Pop era has been, “D” is huge for winning. I don’t see that changing until after Pop leaves. Not going to happen. If it did, I’d say Pop’s ready for the looney bin.
“But a more balanced team both offensively and defensively is what I’ve been wanting for some time.”
Balance is fine as long as they’re both in the top five. However, we can still win with an offense outside the top five, but not vice versa, in my view. Miami though, for example, is the type of team that “could” win with a “D” outside the top-five, or perhaps top-ten, because of their studs on the offensive end. There’s no way we could match up with them offensively. We’d have to have an edge on the defensive end to win a series against them.
I think we should sign Rodney Carney and make him a go to defender. He has all the upside to being one. He has the athletism, length and quickness. With the Spurs preaching defense to him, he will be more likely to be one of the top defenders in the league. With that, I think Pop can have the luxury on trying a lot of defensive and offensive combination that he desires.
Brian K
August 27th, 2010 at 7:01 pm
“Seriously, you practically made the point yourself, Mr. Henderson:
“McDyess would give them some veteran toughness and depth on their front line, and is pretty good at hitting the mid-range jumper.â€
That’s what PHOENIX could use. WE could use a guy with Amundson’s skills/attributes! Hello?!
“Toughness and front line depth would be the purpose of getting Amundson in the first place.”
You apparently don’t know Amundson’s game, and what the Spurs are still sorely missing on our front line. Amundson is a high-energy guy that is an offensive and defensive live-wire around the basket, and is great in transition. He is an excellent overall defender (a real pest!), a very good rebounder, and one of the best shot-blockers in the league. And he’s just 27 years old.
The Spurs need additional defensive help in the interior, they need shot-blocking help, they could use another HIGH energy guy off the bench, and they need to get younger in average age of their top 4-5 front court players in the rotation. And Amundson fills all these needs perfectly; McDyess does not, and Blair is not half the defender & shot-blocker that Amundson is. Blair has much more potential on the offensive end, especially when he fully develops his mid-range game, which I expect he will within the next 2-3 years.
Splitter makes McDyess more redundant (both good post defenders, and mid-range shot), but not Amundson (Splitter is not a particularly good shot-blocker).
If you’d care to debate the issue further, at least come armed with some stats to back up your assertions. I would initiate the same, but I’ve made stat-based points numerous times before on this very issue, and to be honest, it’s becoming a drag.
Don’t mean to burst your bubble, Jim, but Amundson has already narrowed down his choices to sign either with the Warriors, Hornets, or Pacers, according to Yahoo. I personally don’t mind him coming to the Spurs, just as long as he doesn’t sign back with the Suns. But, assuming that report is true, why not bring back Oberto? I don’t think it would hurt us.
I see an ominous trend developing for SPurs fans, whic is pretty indicative of how the other NBA players view Spurs championship window.
There was a time (earlier this decade), when experienced & established stars would take less money and sign with the Spurs as role players to have a shot at the title (e.g. – Horry, Finley, Barry). Most of these players were offensive threats and filled the need, since the Spurs were already a dominant defensive team earlier this decade…
Now the tables have turned….Just this off-season alone, in an attempt to bloster their defense, Spurs tried to get Raja Bell, Matt Barnes, James Jones; all of whom took similar or lesser salary, that was offered by the spurs, to sign with other teams for a shot at the title (sure I agree Spurs are in a better position that Jazz, so not sure what Raja was thinking). Raja would have been a good fit with the Spurs and would have brought that defensive presence and toughness the Spurs need on the wing. But i guess being the last cut from a spurs training camp few yrs ago, still irks Raja..
My point is, now players are looking at other team for a shot at the title….Any of these 3 players would have played the Bowen role and would have brought the defensive presence against the big scores…I think their decisions are pretty indicative on how they feel about the Spurs chances…Sure, a sample of 3 does not justify how the majority of the league feels about the spurs…but still the fact that we could not even land 1 of the 3 defensive players (a need for us) mentioned above should be a telling sign..(I believe Barnes and Jones signed with their teams for Vetran Min $1.3 mill)…..
I would like to think Pop and RC are relying on increased ‘corporate knowledge and internal improvement’ to get this group to have better chemistry and results (although i think ‘chemistry problems’ might have arised due to lack of personel to respond to Pop’s defensive demands)…
Anyways, I am being optimistic on the spurs chances this season…but i also feel the years of opponents fearing the Spurs defense (as George Karl mentioned last season), which i used to relish, is loooooong gone…thank god, I have the championship DVD’s:)
Go Spurs Go!!
Mark
August 27th, 2010 at 10:05 pm
“Don’t mean to burst your bubble, Jim, but Amundson has already narrowed down his choices to sign either with the Warriors, Hornets, or Pacers, according to Yahoo.”
I’m quite aware of that, Mark. I don’t have a bubble yo burst. Those are published reports. Until he’s actually signed, he’s still available.
Ravi
August 27th, 2010 at 10:27 pm
“There was a time (earlier this decade), when experienced & established stars would take less money and sign with the Spurs as role players to have a shot at the title (e.g. – Horry, Finley, Barry)…”
Actually, Finley, Horry, & Barry were not stars at the time we picked them up, and did not sign that cheap with us, despite the fact that we were bonafide title contenders at the time. In 2010 dollars, Finley signed for about 3 mil., Horry about 4.5 mil., and Barry about 5.5 mil., which is more than we could afford on the FA market this off-season.
“Now the tables have turned….Just this off-season alone, in an attempt to bloster their defense, Spurs tried to get Raja Bell, Matt Barnes, James Jones; all of whom took similar or lesser salary, that was offered by the spurs, to sign with other teams for a shot at the title…..”
Jones decided to stay in his home town to play with the hyped up Heat, who Vegas puts as the favorite for the title this year (I don’t agree). Barnes decided to play for the two-time defending champion Lakers. S0 neither of these choices are too surprising, since we didn’t have much more in dollars to offer them, and we’re not the threat that either of these teams are for a title this year. And Bell signed with Utah because they paid him about 2.8 million more than we could afford over 3 years. That’s too much for a guy like him to give up this late in his career. So again, not a surprising decision.
“My point is, now players are looking at other team for a shot at the title..”
Of course, but it’s not like we had much money to offer them any way (a max of 2.4 mil. per year).
“(I believe Barnes and Jones signed with their teams for Vetran Min $1.3 mill)…..”
No, Barnes got about 1.7 million. Jones did sign for about 1.3 mil., but he has a decent amount of money coming in from his contract buyout from the Heat when they were freeing cap space to sign the big three.
Sure you’re going to get some breaks on signing some decent FA’s for cheap if you’re a TOP title contender. Usually that only happens sometimes with the top 2-3 teams in the league. However, money is usually the biggest issue, and we’ve simply had busted cap situation for awhile now.
@Jim
“but I’ve made stat-based points numerous times before on this very issue, and to be honest, it’s becoming a drag.”
To be honest, seems to me no other person posting here has a chance to be remotely right when going against a “glass is always half empty” type of person.
Long posts are also a drag, specially the pessimistic type of long posts.
@Jim
Alright, cool. I didn’t mean to say it in a bad way. It was just reported on Yahoo, and I didn’t know if you knew already. But yeah, it would make sense for Amundson to sign with a potential contender like the Spurs rather than the likes of the Warriors, Hornets, and Pacers.
@ Jim
I cant understand why they still attempt to come after you. Did you show them your VIP card Jim? I read your rebuttals…LMAO!
@ Ravi
Nice Post….
Our problems though, are unfortunately, much larger.
Pop is going to be forced to change his spots. Forced to play rookies and unproven players. It will no longer be a choice for him.
He and RC have actually placed a lot of thier hides in Splitter’s hands. If he doesnt play well, (and he probably wont for a couple years), they lose. Suddenly, they dont seem so clever anymore. We may even find a reporter with the Balls to
Then there is Blair. Comming into his last year. We know that Pop has not used this kid properly and has been sporadic at best in giving this kid adequate minutes.
Blair is a competitor and will have a strong market in the league. If things dont improve between he and Pop, He too will be gone.
Then there is our warrior. Our closer and relentless leader, Mr. Parker…
You dont trade Tony Parker. You treat him correctly, pay him his money, surround him with the RIGHT supporting cast, and keep it moving.
George Hill is a nice young player, but he is no Tony Parker and no game changer.
Its all going to be intresting. I fear that Pop is losing steam fast, taking on water, losing his way. Unfortunately, he is taking the team down with him.
I have a feeling that after this season, things will never be the same in Spur Nation…
Thanks Coach Ballhog for telling us we are losers. First off, Tim may be 34 but has not dropped off like many of the older players. His minutes and games have been controlled. Manu is 33 but he too has had his time controlled. Parker is still a solid point guard. Each of the 3 rested this summer. Something they have not done in several years. As for Splitter, he is the best player in Europe and has 10 years experience against older and better players than the one and done rookies. When Anderson was drafted at 2o, I was jumping for joy. We had a player who can knock down a 3 and defend AND who is a team leader after 3 years at OSU. The Big12 player of the year. Following in Blake Griffins steps. Why should he not be consider a possible wing player who can contribute? Bonner showed better defense after he broke his hand was out. Jefferson was beginning to come around late. Gee, ROY of dleague, may be something to watch if he works hard in preseason. Neal should dump a few 3′s off the bench.
I, also, dont understand how the lakers siging Barnes 8 teams in 8 years and Blake 7 teams in 8 years plus 2 head cases from the draft makes them better.
I like the chances the Spurs and OKC as well as, the Blazers to knock off the Lakers. I just look at the Spurs and think to myself “if everyone stays healthy, look out Miami, we can take you down”.
Popovich will finally be called out for what he is this year.
Last year he stated that this was his best squad, yet he finished worse (50 wins) than hes ever finished… strange huh?
He blames the performance on defense, yet hes the coach and HE selects the players.
The problem his defense sucks is because he plays MATT BONNER AND MCDOOSH over Blair.
If you dont have the horses to be lock down defenders then you have to change your scheme. To keep plugging in the same numbers and expecting a different result is ignorant. A good coach would have done things differently. Unfortunately were stuck with pop.
FRAUD.
A big man rotation of Duncan, Splitter, Dice & Blair is deeper then any other rotation in the West. Dice guarded Dirk way better last year then any Spur has ever guarded him (remember how awful the great Bruce Bowen was guarding him in ’06?). I too worry about the the small forward depth and wish the Spurs had someone like Aaron Afflalo backing up RJ. I think the notion that Pop doesn’t play rookies has been debunked since Hill got serious run two years ago, Blair got serious run last season and Splitter figures to start or be the first big off the bench.
Having another mobile, good defensive 7 footer will improve the Spurs’ defense immensely. They haven’t had that the last two seasons, which is when the Spurs defense began to regress. And I’d much rather have James Anderson (reigning Big 12 POY isn’t anything to sneeze at) and Garrett Temple as the deep wing reserves then one dimensional Roger Mason and not that great Keith Bogans.
One.
Trevor
August 28th, 2010 at 2:04 pm
“A big man rotation of Duncan, Splitter, Dice & Blair is deeper then any other rotation in the West.”
We have two guys that are 34 & 36 years old, and in decline; we have one guy who’s just 21 years old, is only 6’6″, has no mid-range shot, and is a defensive liability; and you have one guy that hasn’t yet played ONE game in the NBA. And none of them weigh over 250 lbs. How is that the deepest and most talented front line in the West? We don’t have ONE established player that’s in his prime on that front line.
And you’re telling me that line is better/deeper than Gasol, Bynum, Odom, & Ratlif? I think you’re on drugs.
Better/deeper than Oden, Pryzbilla, Aldridge, & Camby? I doubt it.
Better/deeper than Yao, Scola, Miller, Hayes, & Hill? I doubt it.
Better/deeper than Nowitzki, Haywood, Chandler, & Mahinmi? Debatable.
Better/deeper than Dalembert, Thompson, Cousins, & Landry? Debatable.
Better/deeper than Nene, Martin, Harrington, & Anderson? Debatable.
And there are stronger front lines in the East as well.
If we want to challenge in the West, let alone for a title, our front line still needs some help from someone that is young & in their prime. And someone with weight, or an excellent shot-blocker, if not both. Why are so many on this blog so sanguine about our front line?!?
“Having another mobile, good defensive 7 footer will improve the Spurs’ defense immensely.”
Immensely? I think you’re putting way too much pressure on Splitter. He hasn’t even played one game in the NBA yet! You’re putting the cart before the horse here. He’ll help, but “immensely”? That’s not realistic. Could he be a major impact for us? “Possibly”, but by no means likely.
@Jim(aka Spur Hater)
So you think Amundson would be a better pick up than Splitter? Keep Dreaming. Amudson disappeared against the lakers front line. Splitter is a much bigger player. Offensively Splitter will also put up better numbers than Amudson. Splitter will end up a starter for the spurs. Amudson would be a servicable backup for certain situations. Splitter was MVP of the Spanish league. Averaging a high number of blocks doesnt neccesarily mean you are a great defender. It is similar to steals. If you gamble a lot , you can get a lot of steals and blocks. No one would ever say Iverson was a great defender, yet he jumped lanes and got lots of steals. Splitter may not get a lot of block shots, but is a better pick and roll player and would play better positional defense than Amudson.
Are you a spurs fan or analyst? Do you even root for the spurs to win anymore? Or do you just look at what they don’t have and predict gloom and doom. True fans believe in their teams. When the spurs play well this year, don’t jump on the bandwagon and claim them to be your team. GO SPURS GO!!
Amundson is a solid player, but he’s not a game changer on defense or anything. I don’t think he will ever start in the league. He is a solid bench player and I mean that as a compliment- he brings energy and crashes the glass. But he’s not going to lock down a quality power forward.
spursfanbayarea
August 28th, 2010 at 4:47 pm
“So you think Amundson would be a better pick up than Splitter?”
I really don’t appreciate people “making things up” about what I supposedly say. I DID NOT SAY that “Amundson would be a better pick-up than Splitter”. It wasn’t even in the conversation.
And to be honest, I have no idea who would put up better overall numbers (or would have the bigger impact on the team winning) on the Spurs next year if they both got the same number of mpg., primarily because Splitter hasn’t played one minute yet in the NBA. You may assert that Splitter will put up better all-around numbers than Amundson, but you’re really just guessing. And say what you will, but there’s still a considerable difference between the Spanish League and the NBA.
“Averaging a high number of blocks doesnt neccesarily mean you are a great defender. It is similar to steals. If you gamble a lot , you can get a lot of steals and blocks.”
If you’re trying to say that all Amundson is is a shot-blocker, then you have no idea what you’re talking about. You saw how I described his game in previous posts on this thread, and it was more than “just shot-blocking”. I’ll leave it at that.
But again, the point I was making was not a choice between Amundson & Splitter. I want them both in our front court rotation. They would compliment each other very well, along with Blair & TD.
“Are you a spurs fan or analyst?”
Both.
“Do you even root for the spurs to win anymore?”
Every game, and I can get pretty upset when they lose.
“Or do you just look at what they don’t have and predict gloom and doom?”
I try to analyze the team as objectively as possible. I sometimes make predictions of likely scenarios as I see it, whether good or bad.
“True fans believe in their teams.”
True fans root for their team, and wish them the best. And that’s what I do. But the fact is, if you were a Nets fan last year, rooting for your team is not the same as believing that they were going to win the Eastern Conference. That’s not being a fan, that’s being a cult member.
“When the spurs play well this year, don’t jump on the bandwagon and claim them to be your team.”
The Spurs are my favorite team, whether they play really well, or not so well this year. The irrational side of me still hopes that they could win another title this year! My more objective side sees a good season, but a playoff exit shy of the WCF’s. And I’m sorry, but that does not make me any less of a fan.
And by the way, in the future can you cease and desist with the two-word diatribes: “spur-hater”. That’s utter bunk.
Jimbo
August 28th, 2010 at 7:42 pm
“Amundson is a solid player, but he’s not a game changer on defense or anything.
Actually, he is, in a limited role off the bench.
“I don’t think he will ever start in the league.”
Nobody ever said anything about him being a starter. He’s too limited offensively, with little upside at age 27. We don’t really need a starter, and we didn’t have the money this off-season to buy one.
“He is a solid bench player and I mean that as a compliment- he brings energy and crashes the glass.”
We could very much use exactly that to supplement our front court, plus he plays solid all-around “D”, and he’s a fabulous shot-blocker, a weakness of ours. He’s a perfect fit as a 12-18 mpg. role player on this team. These types of guys can put you over the edge, in the sense that our defense would at least have a shot at getting into the top-five, something we must do to make a legitimate run at a WCF appearance.
A bit off topic, but did any one see Ian play for france? hope this doesnt turn out into another Scola…
@ Jim
Well put…The “Fan or Cult Member” statement was too real for words.
An opinion in reference to the absolute failure of this Front Office to bring in the type of role players that are needed for our 3 star players, is warranted.
If you are a true fan, you dont enjoy watching the Spurs lose. In order for the Spurs to win, we need the right type of players.
Anyone on the thread who is looking at this realistically, would openly admit that this roster is not sell put together at all. Neal, Temple, Bonner…
OK, but they are simply not the players that this team needs at this particular point.
Even the wasted pick on Richards….Spurs could have gotten some type of value there…A back up big that could give us 5-7 minutes here and there and add size and rebounding.
I dont like Pop as the Spurs coach.
Dont like Buford either…
But a Spurs fan…No doubt….Back to the ABA days of George Gervin, Larry Kenon, and Red, White, and Blue basketballs………..
Spurs need new coach, new way of thinking, and actual NBA caliber players.