Tuesday, August 4th, 2009...10:45 am
Spurs 2009-10 Schedule Released
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The upcoming season’s schedule is officially available. Games of note: We open the season at home against the Hornets. We close the season at Dallas. The rodeo road trip begins February 3rd and includes games against Portland, the Lakers, Denver, and Detroit. Not including NBA TV broadcasts, the Spurs have 20 nationally televised games.
Also, for those fellow Spurs fans who reside in the Second City, the Spurs are at Chicago on October 29th, the second game of the season. If 48MoH readers in Chicago would like to get together before or after for a drink, I’d be down.
73 Comments
August 4th, 2009 at 10:52 am
Great! I live in Chicago so definitely up for drinks, and to cheer on the Spurs!
August 4th, 2009 at 11:03 am
ps Just realized that is a back to back. I hope we get to see Timmy/Manu..
August 4th, 2009 at 11:47 am
The Spurs have the second fewest back2back games in the league, lucky break since we need all the rest we can get.
August 4th, 2009 at 11:51 am
It’s probably because Pop threatened to not play his starters on the second night of back-to-backs again
August 4th, 2009 at 11:56 am
It’s probably unrelated, but it is interesting that the Spurs probably got the most attention in Denver last year and now they have the 2nd least back to backs. Interesting anyways.
And I’d be down for a chicago meet up/drink up as well!
August 4th, 2009 at 1:04 pm
I’ve just skimmed through the national TV schedule and have yet to actually study the Spurs schedule, but it’s good to hear they have the 2nd fewest back-t0-backs in the league, and that they start off with one; reason being as many as they can get out of the way early, while they’re a) still building up their conditioning, and b) still fresh, the better.
August 4th, 2009 at 1:28 pm
I like the 2nd fewest b2b games. I’m sure Stern wanting to maximize attendance/audience was part of it. Another , IMO, is that we are not defending champs. Seems defending champs have to be considered for holiday games and national TV matchups which can create odd start times and scheduling. That we still have so many national TV games and are one of the legit title contenders leads me to believe it’s more about Stern’s knowledge of Pop’s willingness to sit his guys.
Closing with 5/7 on the road could be a tough way to close if we’re fighting for seeding.
August 4th, 2009 at 2:43 pm
Gonna do my best to support the team while they’re out east. Can’t wait!
- Sun, Dec 27 - at New York
- Sat, Jan 2 - at Washington (4th straight year!)
- Fri, Feb 19 at Philadelphia
- Sun, Mar 28 at Boston (long shot)
August 4th, 2009 at 2:48 pm
October 28th cannot come fast enough.
And nice to hear about the second fewest back to back games.
August 4th, 2009 at 4:03 pm
Roger Mason
I realize this is off-topic, but clearly that will not stop me. I watched the video about RM’s legendary shooting. I remember the story from a year ago when he was just joining the Spurs and was looking forward to having a 3pt sharpshooter on the team. But, as the season wore on, I forgot about the story. After watching the video today, I wondered how his 3pt shooting turned out last season, so I looked it up. “Survey Says -” 0.421 which is not bad since he had to share point gaurd duties.
In the video, Roger states great confidence in his 3pt shot! So, what can we expect this year? With the Spurs having more scoring options on the floor (e. g., Richard Jefferson) plus well stocked in the front court, I would think there will be many open looks for RM outside. Let’s hope for a repeat of his roughly 90% shooting described in the video.
August 4th, 2009 at 4:13 pm
would it be crazy to pick up AI as a shooting guard to play 15 mpg for us?
August 4th, 2009 at 4:47 pm
AI is garbage..
but would love to meet up with some spurs before/after the game!
August 4th, 2009 at 5:21 pm
AI is one of the five best basketball players of the past 10 or 15 years, a first-ballot hall of famer, and if we had the money and the need, I would gladly have him on my team. I think he could make big contributions to handful of teams right now, but the Spurs are not one of them.
August 4th, 2009 at 5:23 pm
Noticing that 12/27 game in NY, I know well ahead of time what I will demand for Christmas.
August 4th, 2009 at 6:58 pm
AI won’t play for a team that won’t start him, as we saw in Detroit last year. He’s too proud to not be a star, and he’s probably too proud to play for the minimum, too. AI just wouldn’t work for us.
August 4th, 2009 at 7:10 pm
It’s nice to see the Spurs land a favorable schedule at a time when we are trying to extend the Tim Duncan window. This might have just been fannish paranoia but I feel like we have had a lot of back to backs the last few seasons. Does anyone have the actual numbers of back to backs for the last 10 or so years?
August 4th, 2009 at 7:16 pm
AI will be good even great in the right situation, but in the Spurs’ he won’t start so that gonna be a problem… and he wouldn’t sign for the minimum… i think he fits well with the Bobcats…
Can’t wait ’till October 28….. hopefully the Spurs will live up to expectations and compete and win the championship this coming season, Go! Spurs Go!
August 4th, 2009 at 7:22 pm
I agree with you that he wouldn’t work for us, but that’s all.
Anyway, NY Spurs fans? There is such a thing, right? December? Anyone there for the game two seasons ago when we were down 20+ pts. to the worst team in the NBA? AND THEN THERE WERE DUNKS!? Magic happens at MSG, guys. Live it.
Alternatively, upstate NY fans that like to watch spurs at bars for tv games?
August 4th, 2009 at 7:41 pm
BB,
I live in Chicago but my girlfriend lives in NY, so any excuse to come out there is a good one. If I’m in the neighborhood on Dec. 27th, you’ve got a date for the Knicks game.
August 4th, 2009 at 8:09 pm
Here is a new article up on basketball-reference regarding Richard Jefferson and the Spurs:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=3122
August 4th, 2009 at 8:10 pm
How’s his plus minus looking these days
August 4th, 2009 at 8:23 pm
any fans excited about the toronto date?
August 4th, 2009 at 8:32 pm
Celtics and Cavaliers got spared with the 3rd fewest back to backs(only 1 more than the Spurs). David Stern knows where his bread is buttered.
August 4th, 2009 at 9:00 pm
I don’t know if I buy that the league or Stern gives a hoot about who starts for the Spurs on a given night or how far we go in the playoffs. We have one of the smallest markets in the NBA, and whenever we draw significant tv ratings it’s strictly tied to recent success. Last season we played in an (excellent) Christmas day game, but that was only because of the incredible series against the Suns & appearance in the Western Conference Finals. After last season I don’t think we have any pull with the league vis-a-vis scheduling. If anything, we lucked out.
From a travel standpoint, it’s interesting how different the West has become in the past decade, with Seattle, Vancouver and the Hornets turning the very isolated Texas triangle into the western end of a six-city Mid-South NBA corridor.
August 4th, 2009 at 9:04 pm
kaveh said that currently pau gasol is better than time duncan. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Ask anyone team if they could get Tim Duncan or Pau Gasol next season for one season and who would 100% of them pick?
Kaveh thats a joke that you can even think that.
August 4th, 2009 at 9:41 pm
Kaveh-
+/- is an incredibly overrated stat. Bonner had a kickass +/- last year, and he was the worst defender on our team. We have refuted your claim MULTIPLE times on this blog that +/- is an uber stat. if you are going to keep dogging the RJ move, please come up with some new material.
and as for your claim that Pau is better than Duncan, i’d love to see your stats to back that up. Over the last half of the season, we saw a decline in Duncan’s numbers when it was basically him, TP, Bonner and Mason carrying the load. Put Pau in that situation, and he would be a sitting duck (see every year with the Grizzlies). Duncan has averaged essentially the same numbers every year since getting in the league. Nobody is anywhere near as consistent as him. But i’m willing to listen to your argument that Pau is better, just show me something to back it up.
and andrizzle, i hate to turn on another Spurs fan, but you suggested we pick up AI. Thats at least as big of a joke as Pau>Duncan, if not moreso. If there is one position the Spurs are loaded at, its wing scorer. RJ, Finley, Hill, Manu…and with the exception of Finley, they all play better D than AI does too.
and any fans in the OKC area? The Thunder are suprisingly worth watching as well. i dont think they are more than a year or two away from being real competition. I definitely think they are closer than Portland.
August 4th, 2009 at 9:53 pm
To be fair, the link kaveh posted was fairly interesting and concluded that RJ would be a major offensive upgrade for the Spurs’ starting five. The major question it posed was whether RJ’s recent defensive decline would negate his shooting and his ability to move off the ball. It didn’t suggest, for instance, that RJ is a volume shooter, thus not a legitimate third or fourth option (as a certain commenter tends to argue).
August 4th, 2009 at 10:04 pm
I’m dissapointed that the Spurs don’t get a Christmas Day game this year.
But at least we get 20 nationally televised ones
August 4th, 2009 at 10:37 pm
i didnt suggest picking him up. i asked if it would be crazy. no way in the world would i ever want him to play for the spurs. AI is exactly what the spurs dont need.
August 4th, 2009 at 11:28 pm
Interesting analysis about Richard Jefferson from the basketballreference site, to go along with many other similar remarks and analyses from blog commenters, stats geeks, and sports writers.
However, at the end of the day (or, at the beginning of the season), I’ll trust one man’s opinion on Spurs roster moves above all others: RC Buford, the best GM in the league, who just happens to make a living day-in and day-out by analyzing NBA talent for the Spurs.
If he thinks that RJ is the best fit for our team, a fantastic offensive addition and defensive key, then I have full confidence in him. Can you really doubt RC?
August 5th, 2009 at 1:12 am
“AI is one of the five best basketball players of the past 10 or 15 years, a first-ballot hall of famer, and if we had the money and the need, I would gladly have him on my team. ”
BB: Someone obviously hasn’t been watching the
league these past 10 or 15 years.
“AI is one of the five best basketball players of the past 10 or 15 years”?
You’ve got to be kidding, that is hilarious, and completely offensive.. to so many players.
Maybe a notoriously selfish, practice hating, only-knows-how-to-play-one-way, ring-less, scoring-machine, idiot?
We (Spurs) wouldn’t even take the risk of having such a parasite in our locker room so don’t worry; you’ll never see him in black and silver, even if we did have the cash and the need. It’s not even about his skill, he’s just a wack-ass teammate. Too bad he’ll never win a championship. What a waste of talent.
August 5th, 2009 at 5:06 am
092021,
AI’s talent was a not a waste at all. This guy was six feet tall and scored 27 points a game for his CAREER. He changed the image of the NBA (not to mention the crossover). He led the league in scoring 4 times and steals 3 times. All of his scoring abilities attracted fans everywhere. He won an MVP, and to be fair he never had enough talent on his team to win a ring. I’m not saying I want him on the Spurs, but he was an electifying player that changed the game of basketball.
August 5th, 2009 at 5:17 am
Down for a Chicago meet and drink.
August 5th, 2009 at 5:19 am
Well Araz, I don’t think you can give Allen Iverson the benefit of the “not enough talent on the team” reason since it can be argued that the 2000~2001 76ers team that reached the Finals was able to be that successful only because it had a team designed to defer to Iverson’s every whim.
August 5th, 2009 at 7:25 am
It’s lonely out here in L.A. My buddy and I seem to be the only Spurs fans in this sunny, soft breeze-swept, 75 degrees every day, Kobe-obsessed hellhole.
OK, I actually love it here, but it would be nice to have a few more silver and black supporters to fight off the hordes of Laker bandwagoners. I know a friendly sports bar where some folks know my name…
August 5th, 2009 at 7:38 am
No Lakers till January!!! DAMN! I wanna see that game now!! Go RJ, MANU, TONY , and TIMMY!
August 5th, 2009 at 8:09 am
Try being a Spurs fan smack dab in the middle of Iowa.
Seriously, I don’t know an NBA fan with in my entire community. College basketball trumps all around here.
August 5th, 2009 at 8:22 am
I am so ready for this season, and excited to see how all our new players will fit in. I am in Jacksonville, FL and know maybe one other Spur fan, but I’ve been recruiting
Anyone in the FL area thinking of going in March to the Miami or Orlando game?
August 5th, 2009 at 10:29 am
I live in DC and am from outside of Philly so I make those two games every year. My sister is moving to LA so I’m trying to plan my first visit for when they play the lake show. Also trying to see Boston this year too but that may be a bit ambitious.
Go Spurs!
August 5th, 2009 at 10:31 am
Araz:
Sigh..
I clearly said it wasn’t about AI’s skill level that makes him a poor basketball player.
Not winning a championship for the sake of one’s diva-esque pride is certainly a “waste of talent” especially if one is as gifted as he is:
“Having spent much of the 2008-09 season with the Detroit Pistons after a Nov. 3 trade from Denver, AI shut it down on April 3, officially because of a bad back, but really because he DIDN’T WANT TO CONTINUE COMING OFF THE BENCH for Joe Dumars and then-coach Michael Curry.
“I’m in a position now that I’ve never been in my whole life,” Iverson said at the time. “It’s harder than I thought it would be. With the back injury, I have to sit out at the start, then go in, then sit again. It’s tough to really get going. I take my hat off to the guys who can come off the bench and be effective. It’s tough for me. I’m struggling with it.
“I’d rather retire before I do this again,” he continued.”
- Adam Hirshfield
Not that Detroit had a chance of winning at all last year, but refusing to play even when his teammates needed him on the floor? Absolutely Gross. What a joke, what a waste of talent.
August 5th, 2009 at 11:27 am
I suppose I’m the only 48MoH reader in Phoenix. Dec. 15th can’t come soon enough.
August 5th, 2009 at 11:29 am
As much as AI embodies everything that is NOT San Antonio Spurs, I completely agree with BB’s statement that AI is one of the 5 best basketball players of the past 10-15 years. In terms of talent, he’s right up there with the best - shaq, kobe, duncan, etc. And HJ, your argument that the 2000-2001 Sixers were only able to make it to the Finals was because it was designed to defer to AI’s every whim is faulty. Tell me - how was the 2008-2009 Lakers team designed? Pau Gasol had to give up his shots for Kobe. Ariza had to give up shots for Kobe. Odom had to go to the bench for the sake of the “team”. Basically, everyone had to sacrifice except Kobe. So, it deferred to Kobe’s every whim. Not necessarily a bad thing if you have one of the best talents in the NBA like Kobe Bryant… or Allen Iverson.
And what did you expect out of Iverson when he was traded for his contract, not his skills, was put on the bench, and basically lost all his superstar status? I expect the same from Kobe when he gets too old.
August 5th, 2009 at 12:09 pm
drew:
Except the players you listed above: shaq, kobe, TD, would all take a role off the bench if the time came, and they were asked to do so. That is what makes them truly great basketball players, because they understand it is a team sport.
The talent is there. It’s AI as a human being that plummets his stock. His basketball skills are too good for his own good.
You say everyone on that 09 Lakers team had to sacrifice except for Kobe and that Pau and Trevor gave up shots for Kobe? What are you talking about? It is quite the contrary; he sacrificed the most. Everyone else on that team was able to play the way they did because of Kobe’s dedication and sacrifice. He could have easily scored 35 a game, and still taken that team to the finals, but he knew that in order to maximize the potential for that team, he would have to accept, lead, and most importantly, trust his teammates and take on another role.
A critical difference compared to another prolific scorer who didn’t trust his teammates or his coach and tried to do everything by himself, his way. It took him pretty far just because he is really that great of an (basketball) athlete, but a truly great (basketball) player can adjust and adapt to his surroundings. AI can’t do either, and that is why he would never win a ring.
Again, what a waste.
August 5th, 2009 at 1:00 pm
My bad on starting the AI discussion haha. Anyway, what do you guys see Marcus Haislip doing for us this season? He could end up being a huge surprise for us and the rest of the NBA I think.
August 5th, 2009 at 1:06 pm
Very excited to see this new spurs team play. Im from arkansas so I have to travel to see them play regardless. Me and the wife went to San Antonio last year for a game and plan to go to the thunder games and memphis game this year. GO SPURS
August 5th, 2009 at 1:13 pm
HJ,
Did you really expect the Sixers of 2001 to beat the Lakers at that time who seemed unstoppable to anyone?
092021,
Yes, I know that his attitude and demeanor recently has been unacceptable. I was just trying to defend him because of the phrase “what a waste of talent” because of the way he influenced the game. You can’t tell me that you did not like to watch him in his prime.
August 5th, 2009 at 1:16 pm
andrizzle,
I am also very interestd to hear what people have to say about what Marcuz Haislip can bring to the team.
August 5th, 2009 at 1:18 pm
As far as I’m concerned, all Haislip has to do to make a difference is to make a defensive stop or two off the bench. If his one-on-one game translates or if he can hit NBA 3s against NBA Ds, that’s gravy. Can George Hill toss up lobs?
August 5th, 2009 at 2:17 pm
Rikiddo:
if you’ve got a robert horry spurs jersey, please wear it to those games
August 5th, 2009 at 3:01 pm
Am I the only person on this site who actually lives in San Antonio?
August 5th, 2009 at 3:08 pm
Nope. Well I go to UT at Austin but im in San Antonio often enough.
August 5th, 2009 at 3:54 pm
I was born and raised in SA. Go to school at UT in Austin, but glad to see that Spurs fans are getting around.
August 5th, 2009 at 4:17 pm
According to Spurstalk, via Shamsports, Haislip’s deal is apparently NOT guaranteed, as was originally assumed. Supposedly it’s a two-year, non-guaranteed contract with a $50 thousand guarantee the first year (if he’s cut).
All this means is that he, like Hairston, and Williams (as well as Gist and McClinton, although they’re both long shots) will battle it out for the remaining 2-3 available roster spots, which will generally be the inactive spots, I presume.
August 5th, 2009 at 4:29 pm
SpursfanSteve:
I wish I had the Horry jersey, but they hate Manu just as much… so I’ll wear that one. It’s always fun to get those dirty looks, and know that it’s really all jealousy.
August 5th, 2009 at 4:37 pm
Must take guts to put on a Ginobily jersey in Phoenix.
August 5th, 2009 at 4:37 pm
*Ginobili
August 5th, 2009 at 5:20 pm
That isn’t a good sign about haislips contract being non guaranteed, I thought it was to good to be true when i watched the youtube clips of him, I showed them to my brother and said look at this guy this is who we just signed, he said is pop still coaching them. They don’t seem to like dunker’s I actually sent them an email when they released james flight white that kid could dunk, had crazy hops
August 5th, 2009 at 5:29 pm
Bentley:
I am born and raised in SA and I am back in town.
August 5th, 2009 at 5:38 pm
This is great! I’ve counted 4 more Spurs fans who live in Chicago! I didn’t know you guys existed! I need to come over here more often. I lurk here, but am active over at PTR. I love this blog too, btw.
August 5th, 2009 at 9:18 pm
Graydon, do you ever come up to Toronto?
August 6th, 2009 at 2:17 am
France won against Italy, yey!
August 6th, 2009 at 6:08 am
20Manu20,
My girlfriend is from Toronto although I’ve never been. We’re planning a trip for some time this year. If I’m in the neighborhood, I’ll let you know. Hell, maybe I can rig it so that I’m there while the Spurs are in town.
August 6th, 2009 at 6:11 am
No, I did not expect the 76ers to win. Did anyone really?
August 6th, 2009 at 1:01 pm
I’m from San Marcos. I’d throw in a vote for the Austin/Buda/Kyle/San Marcos/NB/Selma/San Antonio corridor to be renamed San Austonio. That would make me a hometown Spurs fan. However, I’m moving to New Mexico, where no one team has a hold on the affections of the masses, so I shall recruit and start a small camaraderie of like-minded individuals. I’ll also have plenty of fun with my Dallas native roommate…
August 6th, 2009 at 8:43 pm
Who is better Tim Duncan or Pau Gasol? This board obviously thinks Tim Duncan, and claims anyone who thinks the opposite to be “a joke” as one poster stated. “A joke that not even you can believe.”
So let’s get the facts straight now —I’m saying that right now Pau Gasol is better than Tim Duncan. Since we would have to wait until next season to see if that statement is correct or not, I think the best option is to look at last season. Note that i’m not saying that Pau Gasol is better than Tim Duncan in his prime. I think Duncan has obviously started to decline from his peak -while Pau is still in his peak.
So let’s look at last year’s stats:
PER: Tim Duncan 24.4 Pau Gasol 22.2
Roland Rating: Tim duncan 7.7 Pau Gasol 7.3
Win Shares: Tim Duncan 9.7 Pau Gasol 14.3
These are the only all around ratings I know of players. They say that basically it is a wash, if not Tim Duncan has the slight advantage. However, these statistics tend to rise the more amount of touches/possessions each player gets. Here is the most important stat in my opinion: Usage Rate. This is the percentage of possessions that each player gets when he is on the floor.
Tim Duncan: 28.5
Pau Gasol: 20.4
This means that while Duncan is on the floor he uses 28.5% of the Spurs possessions (shots/turnovers/etc), while Pau only uses 20.4% of the Laker’s possessions. This is a HUGE difference. Pau Gasol is by far the more efficient player -with 1/3 less touches, he gets similar overall ratings. My contention is that Pau needs many more touches -he needs the same as Duncan is getting. If he had 28.5% usage rate, his overall ratings would be far superior.
Thus we move on to the efficiency ratings:
True Shooting Percentage -this is shooting efficiency taking into account free throws 2pt FGs and 3pt FGs.
Tim Duncan: 54.9%
Pau Gasol: 61.7%!!!
An absolutely huge difference here. Pau Gasol is by far the more efficient shooter when taking into consideration free throws and field goals (3pt are also included but neither take any). When Pau gets the ball, you are getting much more bang for the buck than when Tim gets the ball.
Next we can look at just normal FG% -this is not taking into account free throws:
Tim duncan: 50.4%
Pau Gasol: 56.7%
Again, it is obvious that on the offensive side, Pau is far more efficient.
Passing is next —i sure hope that there is no doubt here. Pau is by far the better passer. If he got as many touches as Tim Duncan, he would have higher assists. As they are with the lower number of touches for Pau, they have the exact same assist numbers per game at 3.5 vs 3.4.
This goes over offense -if you look at the offensive rating for each you see the drastic difference. ORtg is an estimate of points produced per 100 possessions (which takes out the difference in touches or possessions between the two.
Tim duncan: 111
Pau Gasol: 126!!
Huge difference. Pau is obviously the better player on offense, and far more efficient.
Defense is what i’m sure most of you are going to use as your #1 reason. Well let’s take a look.
Defensive rating which is an estimate of points allowed per 100 possessions.
Pau Gasol: 105
Tim Duncan: 100
An advantage to Duncan, albeit slightly.
Total rebounds:
Tim Duncan: 10.7
Pau Gasol: 9.6
A 1 rebound advantage, per game, to Tim duncan.
Blocks: Tim Duncan 1.7 Pau Gasol 1.0
Another advantage to Duncan on the defensive side.
But then again, defense is very hard to gauge. Pau did an excellent job in this years season and playoffs, as was seen when Dwight Howard was stopped in the finals. Pau was guarding him mostly. Tim Duncan on the other hand seems to have lost a step. He is slower, no doubt.
And next year these stats will move further in the direction of Pau. He is still in his prime, but Duncan will be another step slower due to age.
An unbiased individual would say that they are very close in ability at the current time. No way any unbiased individual would say an argument in one favor or another is a “joke” or is ridiculous.
August 6th, 2009 at 9:54 pm
Kaveh,
i think you have a good argument here… but you should take into consideration that Tim Duncan literally played on “half-a-leg” most of last season.
i also tend to disagree about this
“My contention is that Pau needs many more touches –he needs the same as Duncan is getting. If he had 28.5% usage rate, his overall ratings would be far superior.”
more touches does not always translate to better production specially if you are regularly doubled/ triple teamed. (as in the case for Duncan)
Gasol just benefits from having Kobe.
Bottom line: The Duncan decline is overrated.
Gasol’s defense on D.howard is overrated (the guy has no post moves. His offense is predictable as Kareem pointed last season’s finals)
Duncan might be aging but i’d still take him over Gasol at this point. THERE IS NO POINT OF COMPARISON… Duncan won Finals MVP 3 times, 2 time season MVP. 4 rings and top dog of the Spurs.
Gasol? 1 ring with a bunch of help and luck… to mention Gasol in the same breath with Duncan is a joke…
August 6th, 2009 at 11:05 pm
Kaveh - I thought you were a troll
but it’s clear that you’ve simply never watched a basketball game.
robby made most of the relevant points.
Timmy gets the lion’s share of touches, but the Spurs have fewer possessions than the Lakers, and play a slower game generally speaking.
And I wouldn’t quick to minimize his defensive contributions. You can’t pull a bunch of peculiar secondary stats and ratios like possession shares or true shooting percentage as evidence of PGs offensive advantage and then claim that ‘defense is very hard to gauge’ when the same dumb numbers favor Tim.
Also Pau played 12 games against the Warriors, Clippers, and Kings.
August 7th, 2009 at 10:16 am
Robby,
You wrote: “i think you have a good argument here… but you should take into consideration that Tim Duncan literally played on “half-a-leg” most of last season.”
I tend to agree with you. As i said in my post, Tim Duncan at peak level is better than Pau Gasol. But i think where we differ is that I think Tim Duncan is playing on “half-a-leg” due to age and the natural decline you get from it. You on the other hand seem to believe that it is a temporary injury. If Tim Duncan regains his health fully, and his athleticism comes back to 90%+ of its peak, then I would agree with you. But I just don’t see that happening. I wish i were wrong (i actually do because i love to see great teams at full strength go against one another), and we will see next year.
But here is when you start to contradict yourself. You say that the Tim Duncan decline is over-rated -yet a paragraph earlier you said that he was playing on half-a-leg. Obviously if it looks like he is playing on half-a-leg, then he has declined.
And on the comparison between Tim Duncan and Pau, you go into Duncan’s life time achievements. These have no relevance to the conversation since the argument is not who has had the better career, but rather who is the better basketball player at the current time. Also it should be noted that Pau did have multiple 50+ game win seasons with the Grizzles, a team which outside of Pau was an abomination on the basketball court.
And of course Pau has gained due to his play with Kobe. I believe Kobe is the best player in the league and one of the 10 best all time. However, it should also be noted that Duncan has had some great help with his play: Tony Parker and Manu Ginobli to name 2.
And luck really has had nothing to do with the lakers winning the championship. This is the 2nd time in 2 years that they made it to the NBA finals -last year the lakers played the NBA finals without 2 of their starters, Trevor Ariza and Andrew Bynum. This year they had those starters back, although Bynum was definitely playing on half-a-leg. Thus last year they only got to the NBA finals (beating your spurs in the process) and this year winning the NBA championship. I don’t call this “luck,” and i doubt that any unbiased individual would.
August 7th, 2009 at 10:21 am
BB,
I don’t respond well to insults, so in the future if you would like dialog please lay off them.
One point i’d like to respond to is this:
“Timmy gets the lion’s share of touches, but the Spurs have fewer possessions than the Lakers, and play a slower game generally speaking.”
All the stats that i talked about take into consideration the lesser number of touches that Tim Duncan gets. For instance the offensive efficiency is points produced per 100 touches. The true shooting percentage and field goal percentage obviously have no relevance to how fast you play. And I believe PER and the like take pace of play into consideration as well.
On the defensive stats, it is well known that it basketball offensive production is far easier to quantify than defensive production. This is not my bias speaking, but rather common sense.
August 7th, 2009 at 10:23 am
Correction
Instead of: “all the stats that i talked about take into consideration the lesser number of touches that Tim Duncan gets.”
It should have been: “all the stats that i talked about take into consideration the slower pace of play of Tim Duncan’s team.”
August 7th, 2009 at 10:28 am
I know we all feel passionately about many of these topics but let’s keep the chippy remarks to a minimum, ladies and gentlemen. We’re all friends here.
August 7th, 2009 at 11:23 am
I’m not sure you can exactly gauge who is better with stats like that. But Kaveh has a good argument, and Since Pau came to L.A he’s been twice the player he was in Memphis. He’s very skilled offensively and plays some pretty good defense.
As of now he isn’t the defensive player Duncan is, but if you compared their numbers offensively and watched both, I would give the slight edge to Gasol based off of what you see…but again, its hard to for sure say anything, because both play in different offenses.
Pau is 29 now. Duncan is 33. If you compared Duncan 4 years ago to the Pau now, I would say Duncan of then has the edge. That Duncan dominated the finals against Detroit, while Pau played a sidekick role in this finals series.
As far as overall careers goes. It’s not close. Duncan wins. He led 4 different teams to championship rings.
August 7th, 2009 at 3:38 pm
Kaveh,
I only mentioned that Duncan played “half-a-leg” last season… and you and yes i believe it is a temporary injury… on the other hand you seem to insists it would be permanent.
Remember that Duncan never rely much on Power and athleticsm. he is effective because of his high Basketball IQ and great fundamental skills… (No wonder great big men of ALL TIME has high regard for him Bill Russel, Dr. J, Bill Walton just to name a few…)
and yes the Duncan decline is overrated… it has been mention since 2006, and guess what the Spurs still was able to win a ring in ’07.
We also know that besides hardwork, teamwork and dedication, championships still need a little luck (we could argue that with a healthy Manu in ’08 the Spurs could have won that series…)
“On the defensive stats, it is well known that it basketball offensive production is far easier to quantify than defensive production. This is not my bias speaking, but rather common sense.”
in case you don’t remember DEFENSE wins CHAMPIONSHIPS… and you pointed out that statistically speaking Duncan has the edge over Gasol even at this point. For the last Decade, champioship teams wins because of great defense (see Spurs ’99, ’03, ’05, 07, Detroit ’04, Boston ’08, maybe even Lakers ’09) so there goes your common sense…
I agree with you on this…
“If Tim Duncan regains his health fully, and his athleticism comes back to 90%+ of its peak, then I would agree with you. But I just don’t see that happening. I wish i were wrong (i actually do because i love to see great teams at full strength go against one another), and we will see next year.”
and yes i also wish you where wrong… We this upcoming season and hope that everybody stays healthy only by then we can have a better argument…
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