Spurs to Sign Theo Ratliff
The Spurs have come to an agreement with veteran big man Theo Ratliff. Ratliff, who has been in the league for 14 seasons, adds further depth to what already looked to be one of the deeper frontcourts in the league.
A common reaction to this signing (and, in all honesty, my initial reaction) will be bemusement: Do we really need another big man? Well, Someone in the front office sure thinks we do.
You can draw a direct line from some of last week’s summer league performances to this signing. It’s reasonable to assume that neither James Gist nor Jack McClinton showed Pop and Buford enough to earn a roster spot this coming October. With some roster space open and the LLE to spend, they decided to give Tim Duncan more backups than he will know what to do with.
And that’s the question: Do we now have more big men than we know what to do with? Oddly enough, I don’t think we do. There are 15 roster spots available to any NBA team. It is not absurd to spend 7 of those spots on the frontcourt.
Although I couldn’t be more excited to watch the Spurs dominate the paint this season, the truth of the matter is this frontcourt may be more fragile than we would like to admit. Tim Duncan’s knee issues have not suddenly disappeared. I am very excited to see what both DeJuan Blair and Ian Mahinmi can do, but they are still untested. If, as they did last year, Duncan’s knees limit his minutes during the regular season and one of our two big men prospects doesn’t pan out, the Spurs could do much worse than having Theo Ratliff plugging the hole.
When the news hit, I was in the process of writing a post about how we should save the LLE in order to make a late season acquisition in case any part of the rotation appeared to shallow. But, in all honesty, Ratliff is as good a player as we would have gotten in such a scenario. I am fine with making the rough equivalent of such a move now.
Over at PtR, Rikkido said he believes this move makes a trade almost certain. Personally, I’m not so positive but I will admit that I like some of the names he puts on the table (Raja Bell is realistic and would be an excellent addition at this point). When we’ve had some time to thoroughly consider our trade options, Tim or I will be back with some further analysis on that front.
Correction,
When RJ was on the court, his team scored 1.7 points LESS than their opponents. When RJ was NOT on the court, his team scored 0.7 points MORE than their opponents. That’s a -2.4 net difference.
That’s the correct version.
The Bucks would’ve been lucky to win 10 games without RJ last season.
It’s not that Jefferson is a truly great player, it’s that he’s a good player being asked, for the first time in his career, to play a complimentary role to the best three man core in the game, that has Spurs fans excited. That, and, we’re not the Lakers, we don’t have big names falling in our laps regularly.
Think about it though, as a 4th offensive option (he’s an improved spot up shooter from earlier in his career, especially on corner 3′s, a Spurs specialty) he gives the Spurs a big, power SF who can create his own shot, post up, get to the line, defend bigger SF’s in the post, and now he’ll focus the majority of his energy on being a stopper, something he could never do before. It’s also who he’s replacing. Most of us like Bowen and Finley had a decent year, but he’s a massive upgrade over both.
Artest over Ariza? Maybe marginally, as an individual player, but for how much longer? And, most importantly, will he fill the role Ariza played any better? With his volatile personality and penchant for trying to act like an elite perimeter player offensively, I doubt it. Artest also can no longer guard jet footed perimeter players, which is why Battier had to defend Bryant the majority of that series. The reality is Artest is an overrated player, over hyped on reputation, and in all honesty if I had to choose one, I’d pick Jefferson.
It’s about role, fit, and who’s being replaced. That’s how I evaluate acquisitions. Sure, I’m biased, but I truly believe the Spurs have had they best off season in the league by a mile.
Puzzling signing, I would have preferred Rasho, but adds the 3rd big man with fouls for the Bynum, Shaq, Howard, Perkins center matchups.
I do think the Spurs need another swing defender for Kobe, Lebron, Carter, Pierce. I’m not a Raja Bell fan.
Shane Battier should be the 1st choice.
Thabo Sefolosha should be the 2nd choice. Presti might help us out again like he did with Kurt Thomas.
Thabo Sefolosha, might be a good option he can be acquired through a straight up trade with Matt Bonner… and he’s young… it might happen, Go Spurs Go!
I like this move. Not because of the possible trade option down the line but someone who can put in solid minuets off the bench. I would trade Bonner in a heartbeat. Yeah he got had a few games when he got hot beyond the arc but he can not defend. Package him with Finley only because of the age difference between Finley and Mason. Everyone keeps talking about next year the Spurs will get Splitter. Like my Father told me ” Tommorow is always tommorow”. The Spurs are set and if Bell becomes available cheap then the Spurs should consider him. Anyways I like this pickup. Enough said.
Haislip may also play some at SF Express is Reporting. Man am I excited for this year.
I think that’s a little bit of a flawed argument though Kaveh,
When Jefferson was on the court, almost certainly the opponents had their best starting five (which for almost any team is better than the Bucks) and when he wasn’t on the court, it was the backups which is more of a crapshoot.
+/- is a helpful statistic but is also somewhat flawed.
I think Jefferson’s PER will go up on the Spurs because unlike the Bucks, he’s not being asked to be a primary scorer. He’s probably the third option behind Duncan and Parker when he’s on the floor and if Ginobli is on there, he’s even after that.
I honestly think that the spurs will keep all 7 bigs. Here is why. We are preparing ourselves for the matchup with the lakers who in a few days here will sign there own free agent Lamar Odom. And with there quality bigs we now have a rotation of players for each of them. Pau Gasol will draw Matt Bonner and Theo. Lamar Odom will draw a combo of Blair and possibly Mahinmi both of which have quick feet and the grit to match up with a smaller more aggressive forward and Bynum will get a rotaion of Duncan and mcdyess. Two big strong professionals against a unproven youngster. I wonder who will win those battles. I am all for this roster. Now bring on the lakers.
Please also note that Jefferson’s best statistical season came playing behind both Jason Kidd and Vince Carter.
Joe,
LLE refers to the Lower Level Exception, also known as the Bi-annual Exception. It’s just an amount of money (1.9 million, I believe) that a team is allowed to spend once they have gone over the cap.
Basically, it’s exactly like the Mid-level exception except it’s bi-annual and its for less money.
1) whoever suggested that the Spurs should play RJ 20-25 minutes is mistaken. We didn’t spend 30 million over two years for him to play half the game. We have him for two years. We will use him up.
2) While I’m a propenent of dumping the expiring contract of Bonner, who has outlived his usefulness, I only see us trading him for a player who also has an expiring contract.
We’ll need that money next year to sign Tiago Splitter. As either Tim or Graydon said a while back- that’s Splitter’s salary slot. We’re not likely going to use it on anyone whose contract runs beyond this season.
3) I think this team is almost done tinkering. Were it not for the signing of Ratliff I would have thought we were done. But adding a seventh big makes it almost inevitable that another one will depart, thus the Bonner talk.
But I don’t anticipate any move involving a major name- someone like Battier or Bell. I suspect the F.O. would like one more long, defensive-minded three, but not if it means adding another contract beyond this year.
4) I’m still worried about Timmy’s tendonosis. I hope my concerns turn out to be overstated, but I wouldn’t be at all shocked if he misses a third of the season or more. When it comes to Duncan’s knee, things seem far too quiet on the southwestern front.
All these signings show that the Spurs are looking towards matchups.
Haislip was signed to be an agile SF/PF player; with his athleticism and length, he can cover the Nowitzki’s, the Odom’s, the Rashard Lewis’ of the league.
Now, the Ratliff signing was done so Pops could send him to the post, to the trenches, where he could see the bangers of the league: Shaq, Gasol, Dwight, Bynum, etc.
R.C. and Pops are ready to gamble, and they definitely have with their all-out spending sprees, albeit some that are seen as unSpur-like transactions. But I deem these moves successful. They have weapons loaded at every single position, with room to spare; also, in their signings, they have fortified their roster into morphing into any shape the game calls for.
The fast-paced, 7-seconds or less systems:
Parker, Mason, Ginobili, Jefferson (PF) and Haislip (C).
The usual, Spurs-themed, grind-it-out affairs:
Parker, Ginobili, Jefferson, Duncan, McDyess (or insert Ratliff when Duncan/McDyess in foul trouble).
Araz mentioned picking up Marvin Williams, and I think that’s actually a pretty good idea. The numbers would work if Atlanta did a S&T and we ship out Bonner & Finley.
He’s a jump shooting SF (actual hits more long 2s than Jefferson, only Travis Outlaw shot better in this category (07-08)) at 6’8″ with a 7’4″ wingspan but is still really quick and can offer some respectable D on the perimeter.
The Hawks could use a a 3 pt shooting big like Bonner, and right now it seems like they only have one SG, so I’m sure Finley could be useful.
I am also concerned about Duncan’s knees. Yes we have surrounded him with proven talent, but if Duncan isn’t at 100% because of his knees, whats the point?
Duncan has to be at 100%, he has to be a near 20-10 guy this season,command double-teams in the post, be a defensive stopper, and play 60+ games in order for us to have a good chance at de-throning the Lakers
But I’m not sure if we can on Duncan’s knees.
Also I agree with Rye, Trevor Ariza would have been a much greater fit in the Lakers system than Artest. Without Ariza, the Lakers aren’t even champions this year.
Shane Battier and Marvin Williams are attractive wingmen, hopefully the FO does something soon, cause I just want my curiosity satisfied
I don’t know if Finley would go for the trade, but the Hawks are definetly looking for a shooting big man like Bonner. So if the Spurs offered Bonner and Hailsap or Hairston, the Hawks would take a look.
Araz, We can’t package Hairston or Haislip until mid December since we just signed them. Are you a Hawks fan? I’m curious to know if this is coming from a Hawks fan’s perspective.
Yeah, I don’t think Findog would let that fly, but we could trade Bonner and Mihimni. Williams would be a good young forward to have alongside Blair, Hill, and maybe Hairston. We would be building for the future as well as winning now. It would be a great idea, but I’m not so sure the Hawks would go for it. The only negative about getting Williams is that his 3 pt% is pretty low compared to Bonners. But maybe that can improve with age and Chip Engelland.
I just don’t see the FO trading Finley.
GMT, The Hawks are my 2nd team. (behind the Spurs)
I have not yet checked the free agent market but I imagine that the money spent on both Ratliff and McDyess could have been used to get a post player who is younger, healthier, and has more basketball ability than both of these two players. The Spurs claim to be wanting to get younger but they are not willing to trust the young guys to step up. So instead of developing the younger players, they pray that the much older ones they pick up in the free market have enough in the tank for just one more season. They still refuse to take chances and this will come back and bite them when they have nothing but old, worn-out veteran legs and young, inexperienced legs to support the stars of the team when it comes to crunch time in the playoffs again.
Ricky,
You’re kiddding, I assume. The Spurs have three young, agile big men on the roster and I suspect that each will be given every opportunity to win quality minutes over the course of the season.
I HAVEe checked the free agent market and there were no available free agents who were “younger, healthier…more basketball ability,” at least none that the Spurs could afford.
Guys like that (Odom, Milsap, Lee) are getting signed (or looking to) in the 8-10 million range. The Spurs simply didn’t have that kind of money to spend. If you’re aware of a top-notch, young, athletic big man who could be had for what was spent on Dice and Ratliff, about $6.5-7 million, I’m all ears.
So, being a reality-based organization, they wisely invested in two veteran hands, one of whom still seems to have a lot left in the tank.
having said that, I seriously doubt that the minutes of either DeJuan Blair or Ian Mahinmi are going to be sacrificed in favor of Theo Ratliff.
Ricky, thanks for introducing us to “a post player who is younger, healthier, and has more basketball ability” and of course can be signed immediately for $5 million a year. I guess for that price we could also add “lockdown defender” and 50% 3-pt shooter to the wish list?
I know you migt say I’m crazy when I say this but lets look at richard jefferson. I think he migt not be as good of a player as yall think he is. The milwaukee bucks had their two top scorers, mike redd and andrew bogut injured all last season and him being part of their big three he should have gotteb much better stats with redd and bogut out of the picture. I think we should trade jefferson bonner and mahinmi or some other players for jermaine o’neal or chris bosh or some other dominant center. This could be possible and would make out team much bette than having jefferson. Just a thought here
The consensus on this board is that Shane Battier would be a nice addition on the Spurs, but I have not seen a truly convincing offer that’s on-par with his value. The Rockets were built on grit (Artest, Battier, Scola) and hustle (Hayes, Landry) last season. What is their identity if you take out Artest and Battier? Battier is undervalued by everyone except for the Rockets.
Zainn, who would our SF be then? Finley? Hairston?
If we did your trade, we’d still end up with 7 big men, but then we’d be lacking in the SF department.
And Ricky, please tell me who this player is that has more talent than McDyess and Ratliff. I would love to know.
Also, I’d really wish that people would stop questioning the Spurs for being old. Almost every championship we’ve won, there were talks of, “Oh the Spurs are too old, they can’t keep up with the young legs, etc.” Seriously, how many championships do we have to win for this argument to die?
agree with DanielB, RJ was signed to start at the SF… and offensively he will 3 or 4 option for the Spurs’ so its good that we signed him….
Zainn/Kaveh,
Jefferson was just about the only good player on the bucks this year due to the injuries of everyone else. The opposing team pretty much just had to load against him like everyone does against Kobe/Lebron. While Jefferson is a good player, hes not a superstar like those two. He was at his best when he was playing alongside Jason Kidd and Kenyon Martin. And he wasnt half bad after Kenyon left and they got VC. The point is, hes not good enough to be “the man” on a team, but he is definitely better than a role player. I would say that your PER is going to improve when you dont have to carry as big of a load. If you want evidence of that, look no further than Matt Bonner. His responsibility was “stand and shoot 3′s, and any rebounds you get will be a plus.” He averaged for awhile pretty close to 12/10, and his PER was in the upper teens. Does anyone actually think bonner is a better overall player than RJ? I doubt it. You say that RJ needs lots of touches to score his points, but i dont think that is necessarily true. Since hes not carrying the load anymore, his attempts will go down, but i look for his average to be roughly 15 ppg. We shouldnt need more than that from him. He gets 15, Manu gets 15, Parker gets 20, Duncan gets 20, and everyone else gets 20, thats 90 points per game, worst case scenario. I dont think its farfetched to say that both Blair and Mcdyess could end up averaging 1o a piece, so that leaves 0 contribution from Hill (who could also easily average 10 off the bench), Mason, Bonner, and Mahinmini. We’ve got the firepower this year for sure. And RJ should be athletic enough that since he no longer is required to carry the load on offense, he can contribute on D. And even if he cant, Hill did as good a job as anyone when he was guarding Kobe last year. He fought through screens and had his hand right in Kobe’s face everytime he went to shoot. He didnt often fall for fakes and get himself caught in the air, either. I would say that in the next year or two Hill will be about as good as Bowen at guarding those tough matchups, except for maybe Lebron because of how big and explosive he is.
The too old argument is also, well, too old. Last year it wasnt about age, it was about a lack of talent. We’ve now addressed that. We got some old guys, and we got some good young guys that can contribute.
i’d like to hear Ricky’s answer as well. Who could we possibly have gotten that would have been better? Drafting Blair and signing Mcdyess, as far as i’m concerned, have been the real steals of the offseason. RJ could be really, really good, but Mcdyess is a perfect fit and the most championship hungry player in the league. The guy wants it, bad, and you can tell by the way he plays. He’ll kill himself for a title. Blair has a chip on his shoulder, and hes going to be better this year than any player drafted aside from Blake Griffin. I’d bet money on that. Thabeet was way overrated. I’d take Ratliff and Blair over him for the next 2-3 years any day. And thats what all these moves are planning for- the next 2-3 years while we still have Timmy.
And as far as all these potential trades to get Bell or Battier or Thabo or whoever, i do not think they are necessary. Give George Hill a chance and watch him work. He can do it on D.
And my guess is Udoke could come back for the veterans minimum. That would be another defensively minded player that already knows the system that we could plug in to go up against Dirk/Kobe/Lebron. He’d do as good of a job as anyone else for much cheaper, and he also wouldnt complain about sitting on the bench when hes not needed.
sorry for the triple post, but also please never refer to modern day Jermaine Oneal as a dominant center ever again. I’d rather have Shaq. At least hes entertaining.
SpursfanSteve,
problem with Udoka coming back is that the Spurs have currently 13 players under guaranteed contracts… with 14th and 15th spot partialy guaranteed (Hairston and Williams). if the spurs would like to re-sign him, they have to free up a roster spot, Plus Malik Hairston showed alot of improvement during summer league play… Some even think of him as younger, bigger and more athletic version of Udoka…
i wasnt aware of the contract situations. the point remains that we dont really need any more wings, either. we’re pretty set.
Just a heads up… Dice was signed for the majority of the mid-level but not all.. we’re basically getting him and Ratcliff for about 6 million this year. I don’t think even in hindsight the FO could have done any better than that.
Dice and marcus haislip were part of the mle and ratliff was part of our lle fyi
Zainn, Thanks for the exact details.
Actually, I thought the MLE was McDyess + Blair, with Haislip and Ratliff being minimum signings.
I love this site and the amazing coverage they have had of this glorious offseason.
But please, people stop posting trade scenarios that have no value for the other team. Trading for Battier? Hmm. What would Daryl Morey want for his favorite player. I don’t think it would consist of a package of spare parts with no marquee name.
Kalis, thanks for the more exact details
To all the above comments referencing Drew Gooden – he just signed with Dallas. That debate is over.
And for the record, I’m not as firm in my belief that the Spurs will(or need to) make a trade anymore[thanks for the plug, Graydon]. It still seems pretty likely, but may not happen until midseason, when the Spurs have had time to evaluate the current personnel.
Wow you just killed the discussion
Yeah, it does appear that Gooden has signed with the Mavs. Oh well. Been there, done that, have the t-shirt. I was actually a pretty big Gooden fan when he first joined the team, but he just never seemed to get it. Sure he is a decent offensive weapon, but he misses defensive assignments, doesn’t rebound that well for a big man, and just doesn’t seem to be that bright. You’ll notice that the Mavs only signed him for 1 year. That lets you know how much faith they have in him since he could potentially be a 1 year rental. He’s a good guy and I wish him the best, but we could have signed him a month ago if the FO wanted and believed in him.
To me the fact that the mavs only signed him for one year speaks more to his questionable health, not ability. Remember in game 2 against the mavs in this past year’s playoffs Drew took a funny hit on his way down and landed pretty hard on his back. He got DNP-CD for the rest of the series, and I remember hearing on the radio on my way home from the game that he was caughing up blood, the Spurs later called it a sports hernia. But when Pop was asked after game 5 if it was Gooden’s health that kept him out of games 3 – 5, he said that his health had nothing to do with it.
Personally, I like Drew Gooden, he’s a good guy and the Spurs organization thinks he is too. I believe that knowing that his contract was expiring and the Spurs were not in the series against Dallas, Pop and RC just shut the door on any injury talk and benched him to hide it so he could have career this year. Chances are, Gooden got seriously but not permanently injured that night, it will be interesting to see the state of his conditioning, whether he looks like he’s coming back from some injury or his numbers go up as the season goes on.
Frankly, with all the gambles we’re already taking on health this year, the FO just decided it didn’t need one more.
Hey guys, I read somewhere that the signing of Theo Ratliff is in preparation for a trade for Raja Bell with Finley and Bonner. Ratliff is a sort of insurance big man for the Spurs given that they’ll be losing a center in Bonner.
Do you have any other source of information on this? This seems too good to be true to read now.
@Rey
Pure fan board speculation, as far as I know.
I would like to hear Tim and Graydon’s thoughts on this, though.
Getting Raja Bell doesn’t make sense from a roster standpoint. If we trade Finley then the only true SF on the squad is Jefferson.
I’ve floated this out there before, but I wouldn’t mind sending the Finley/Bonner package to Sacramento for Andres Nocioni.
Nocioni has that tough, get under your skin style of the Argentinians and can play the SF position + shoot the 3 at 40%.
The only issue is Nocioni’s contract.. we would have to throw in an additional player (Haislip) or get cash from the Kings.
The Maloofs would love to shed any multi-year contracts and Bonner/Finley’s 1 year deals would be very enticing.
Thoughts?
Re: Raja Bell
Like Kalis, to the best of my knowledge this Raja Bell talk is nothing more than fan speculation. But it does make sense. Even if Bell’s defense has slipped a bit, he would still provide far better perimeter D than Finley. And his outside shooting would more than make up for the subtraction of Bonner and Finley’s offensive contributions.
It’s not a blockbuster trade or anything but, if the Bobcats were willing, I can’t see why we wouldn’t do it.
I also don’t like our roster with Raja Bell. We’ve got a good option backing up at SG right now, even if that is our weakest position defensively. And if we wanted to use Bell as anything other than a late game specialist, his lack of offense would hurt us with the minutes we’d have to give him. As a late game specialist, a Finley and Bonner package is a bit steep to me. The FO consciously gave up some perimeter defense in favor of firepower, and I don’t see why they’d go backwards on that decision now.
Deep Thoughts:
(1) This thread is insanely long, with mostly excellent analysis, but a few GoCrazyForSpursandGolosetouchwithreality comments..namely
(2) “Raja Bell is as good as Bowen.” If this is supposed to convince me to trade for him, think again.
(3) “7 Bigs is too many.” Frankly, we could have 8 and still lack a solid minutes guy that is going to spell TD and McDyess (who are like a hundred years old.) If we could not afford a solid guy, like Brandon Bass, that’s cool, but don’t pretend Mahinmi-Blair-Bonner-Ratliff strikes fear in the Odom-Bynum-Gasol frontcourt. Gist doesn’t either.
(4) No team is excited about trading for Michael Finley. A few like Matt Bonner. They are probably most useful on our roster.
(5) Games on the line, do we currently have a guy that can defend Kobe (with help)?
(6) Please Pop, let TP, Manu, and Hill run the point. We don’t need another PG. FYI Mason can’t do it either.
(7) Great offseason for the Spurs, don’t get me wrong, huge upgrade from our team that only won a game against the Mavs with home court advantage. But the only thing that worries me is we lack a guy that can soften minute load on TD and McDyss, and could use a good perimeter defender.
(8) Ratliff is not a low risk pick-up, but he may just be another Oberto.
Should read (8) Ratliff is a low-risk pick-up.