The Curious Case of George Hill

by

From the Express News via Navin:

As things stand today, rookie guard George Hill won’t be in [the playoffs]. If that wasn’t made obvious by Hill’s flagging playing time lately, Popovich all but made it official before Monday’s game at Golden State.

“This playoff probably isn’t for him,” Popovich said.

I’ve been concerned that this would happen for some time. As Jeff McDonald said, there was no reason to believe Hill’s recent lack of playing time (last night’s game aside) would equate meaningful minutes during the postseason.

The issue for Pop, more than anything, is Hill’s confidence level (particularly on the offensive end of the ball). In the wake of Parker’s injury, Hill did a surprisingly good job picking up the slack. He was not particularly consistent (what rookie is) but 20 point performances from IUPUI’s mystery man were not uncommon. He was aggressive at home but often seemed sheepish on the road.

That sheepishness never diminished. If anything, it began creeping into his play in San Antonio as well. Hill may have hit the infamous “Rookie Wall.” But the increasing inertness of his development was partially a by-product of Pop’s tinkering. Hill is not a natural point, and is not a talented enough scorer to see consistent minutes at the two. So Pop began using Hill (and his stout defense) in an increasingly surgical manner. In terms of in-game management, this worked excellently. But it made it difficult for Hill’s development to have any broader direction. Yesterday Pop spoke directly to Hill’s progress:

“He’s working at the one guard, working at the two-three,” Popovich said. “Playoffs is a time for people who feel very confident about what they’re doing, and George isn’t in that category yet. He needs more time.”

I agree with Pop: Hill does not currently possess the confidence to be a productive member of the playoff rotation. But his lack of confidence was not a foregone conclusion. At the beginning of the season, when Hill’s role was concretely defined, he flourished. As his purpose became more diffuse, his game suffered. Had Pop settled on Hill’s position, his mental and emotional development could be much further along.

That being said, I still think Hill deserves minutes during the playoffs. Maybe Popovich and I have different goals this postseason. I think player development, although not our primary goal, shouldn’t be far behind. The playoffs would be a baptism by fire for the 22 year old. Even if he comes out without a few burns, he’ll be a better player because of it. (Not to mention, mental toughness be damned, his lockdown defense would be a tremendous asset.)

Traditionally Popovich and the Spurs do an excellent job developing talent. For a while there, Hill seemed to be no exception. But as the season has progressed, I’ve felt the coaching staff has mismanaged his situation. I have no doubts that one day Hill will be a valuable member of the Spurs but I’m dissapointed that his current level of play isn’t higher.

  • Duaneofly

    I am getting rather tired of Pop’s insistence on playing well past their prime vets over young players. So instead of seeing Hill or Hairston get some burn, we get to see Jacque Vaughn? Awesome.

  • ChillFAN

    Great read, thank you for this discussion.
    Duaneofly, well said.
    I trust Pop when he says that Hill’s not ready yet, but at the same time I blame Pop that Hill’s not.
    How long can he ignore that we are a step slow at wing? Apparently an entire year-other teams have so much tape on Finley, Bowen and Udoka-Hill could have been our X factor this playoffs.
    My only consolation is that Hill seems to be buying into whatever Pop is selling.
    Last night I heard WOAI’s postgame interview, and Hill said something to the effect of, “I have such respect for the organization’s success that I am working on doing whatever it takes-defensive drills, shot reps-to develop into a Spur.”

  • Navin

    Unfortunately for us, we have no way of knowing what Pop’s rationale is. You have to remember that his mentor was Larry Brown who particularly likes playing veterans at the expense of rookies.

  • Ken

    I have no problem with anything you are saying, but one thing I am not sure about: I am not sure that George is a “lockdown defender” right now. I have watched just about every game this season, and I have been impressed with his occassional three point shooting and reckless (in a good way) drives to the basket and getting to the foul line more than his D. I guess, it is hard to quantify what makes a good defender, but could you elaborate a bit more on why you think he is-or at least, could be-a lockdown defender?

  • Navin

    Ken: You can see an example here

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHGleTaT2x4&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fvideo%2Egoogle%2Ecom%2Fvideosearch%3Fhl%3Den%26client%3Dsafari%26rls%3Den%2Dus%26ei%3D4QPlSc%2DdKcbflQeWkMXgDg%26resnum%3D0%26qiurl%3Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fi3%2Eytimg%2Ecom%2Fvi%2FjHGleTaT2x4%2Fhqdefault%2Ejpg&feature=player_embedded

    Important things:
    1. Playing close w/o fouling.
    2. Not leaving the ground in response to fakes.
    3. Perhaps most important, playing defense with ur feet and not hands.

    Hill has some of these qualities in addition to his length and with some added muscle could be a real nice defender in the future.

  • gospurs44

    The case of George Hill isn’t so curious! He’s been treated just like every other rookie under Pop.
    “Traditionally Popovich and the Spurs do an excellent job developing talent.” Really? other than a can’t miss #1 overall pick, a second round find in the best player in Europe and a 18 yr old PG who had already played 3 yrs professionally, I can’t think of one young talent that Pop and his hierarchy have developed. As much as everyone loves Pop, you can’t deny that his track record on “developing talent” is horrible! We haven’t had a draft pick since 2001 contribute. Only Ian is still on the roster! Ok, now Marcus Williams.
    I don’t believe Hill is ready either but he but he gives us a better chance at back up PG than JV or Mace.

  • SpurredOn

    I understand Pop’s rational of going with vets come playoff time: dance with the one that brung ya, especially when you’ve danced before and never been embarrassed. That said, the chances of winning a title having been cut as severely as any point since 2002 and Manu’s absence provides a huge slot of minutes that need taking. I can’t understand why there are not 10-12 min p/ game (especially at home where role players shoot better) that Hill’s athleticism would not be useful.

    I agree with Graydon: define his role with clear expectations and I bet he does fine. Just imagine him chasing around Terry or Barea next week, or Billups and Smith two weeks later. It makes him a better player tomorrow and helps the team today. Based on last night he’s also improved his stand still jump shot which could mean a made 3pt shot or two when he’s on the floor.

    Without Manu we need someone whose floor time creates steals and open court opportunities. Other than TP there are no fast-break baskets. That extra layup made or stopped is usually the difference, even more so when not at full strength.

    I just hope that coach is playing (P)opossum.

  • http://www.48minutesofhell.com Graydon Gordian

    Ken,

    Navin is right: Hill does all three of those things.

    Aside from my own observations, Pop has repeatedly referred to Hill as a “stopper.” That’s why he had him cover Kobe down the stretch during our last game against the Lakers.

    Or take this quote from Pop after our second game against the Bobcats: “[Hill]’s doing a great job. He’s playing fantastic defense. He hits the boards and is aggressive on the offensive end. The last two games he’s been on the floor at the end of the game, so that should tell you something.”

    Or just listen to young Mr. Hill himself: “That’s one thing that Pop loves about players is if they can play defense then they’re going to be out there, no matter offense or anything like that. That’s one thing that I try to bring to the table every time even if my offense isn’t there. I try to do a good job on defense.”

    Effort is a big part of effective defense. How many other rookies would so frankly state their commitment on the defensive end?

    GoSpurs44,

    Saying we haven’t drafted well in the last few years (or kept the guys we drafted) is different than saying we don’t develop talent well. Parker’s development has been nothing short of miraculous; nobody in the NBA thought he would be what he is today. And a lot of the credit goes to the coaching staff.

    No one we have attempted to develop has been a failure: We just draft guys who either don’t come to the NBA (because they chose to stay in Europe) or who we chose not to keep for some reason.

  • Mason

    Spurs aren’t winning this year’s playoffs. Why not give George Hill some playoff experience?

  • Jose

    I agree, the Spurs have not operated Hill’s minutes right. I also agree, if Pop had defined a role. One in which he stuck with. Hill would be an asset, for the playoffs this year.

    Plus the Spurs are not marching into the finals. So why, doesn’t Pop give Hill some burn? It will help for the future. For both Hill and the Spurs

  • gospurs44

    The Spurs didn’t know what Tony was going to become either because Pop was ready to run him out of town if he could get JKidd. Even if they did develop Tony, 1 player in 12+ years? I think the problem is they don’t try to develop talent. That’s why I didn’t agree with the “Traditionally Popovich and the Spurs do an excellent job developing talent” line. Look what they’ve done in the draft. They draft foreigners and keep them overseas to develop and that hasn’t been working out lately either.

  • Will

    Graydon, I actually agree with GoSpurs44 and I’ve already expressed this opinion before. I think Pop is actually REALLY AWFUL at developing players. Duncan was just a can’t miss player, Ginobili already knew everything he had to, etc. The only player that has developed is Parker, and it’s more because of his will to win and be the best player he can be. Actually after the way Pop treated him in the first couple of years many players would just have quit. And then the Kidd story. I think Parker’s development into a superstar is more to his credit (or Engelland’s) than Pop’s.

    Pop is giving up way too easily on players, and most of the time we didn’t really notice or care, but it’s obvious that Hill is a raw gem… and he’s not going anywhere right now, “thanks” to Pop. Vaughn should have been cut long ago.

  • http://www.48minutesofhell.com Graydon Gordian

    gospurss44/Will,

    The Spurs do a good job developing the talent that is available to them. When you are one of the top 5 teams in the league for an entire decade, you are not in a position to draft top flight talent year-in, year-out. Our picks come too late in the draft.

    That’s why we don’t attempt to develop talent: If no one in the draft is worth taking when our pick comes along, we aren’t going to waste our time trying to make whoever we are forced to take into a quality NBA player. When we have come across quality players (Parker, Ginobili), we have put in the time to make them better.

    Parker’s progress has been more steep than Ginobili’s because Manu was more skilled when he arrived. But that does not mean that Manu hasn’t also developed significantly while with the Spurs. When healthy, he is one of the best shooting guards in the league; that was not an inevitable destination for his career in 2003.

    I have never contended that we don’t give up on players. But I often felt those players were worth giving up on. Has there ever been a player you thought had serious potential that we earnestly attempted to develop and failed to do so? (Players who “got away”, like Scola, are slightly different issue, in my opinion).

    Also, we haven’t even touched upon the Toros, who are head and shoulders above any other D-League operation in terms of player development.

    I will admit “excellent” is too strong a term to use. But I stand behind the main thrust of my assertion.

  • Navin

    Graydon makes a good point in my opinion, the fact that we have been a good team hasnt helped our draft position. For all the criticism of Pop, please remember that he morphed his coaching style to allow Manu more freedom with his crazy plays and unreal playing style. He realized that Manu was one of a kind player and that he needed to adapt his coaching style to allow more freedom and helped Manu’s confidence and development in the process.

  • LionZion

    I have to agree with Ken here. Hill of course has lots of potential. He could be developed into a “lock down” defender.

    We haven’t seen much of him recently and I will concede that the last few bits of him we saw(on Kobe etc) he did reasonably good.

    But(!) he is nowhere near Bruce in terms of cerebral positioning or game nuance when it comes to defence, or even Manu’s craftiness(not saying he has to flop) when it comes to disrupting offense and making the other guy frustrated and out of his comfort zone. I can’t remember exact instances, but for me he hasn’t passed the eye test on a number of game instances when it comes to defense. Anyone good he is guarding just seems very comfortable and still in their rhythm, so his defense is solid but not “lock down” or exceptional yet to me.

    Great read and I agree Pop could have developed Hill a lot more only if he had tried a bit harder, but maybe there is some element in practice we all will never know.

    Lastly, I know we all talk about how Pop favours vets and its true, but I can’t remember, why did he give Tony the keys early back then. Whats different about Tony’s attitude and Hill’s? If anything, Hill is prob more mature than Tony at the same age :P(eezz true)

  • Christian

    Parker got a few burns those first few playoff series. Look at him now.

  • ThatBigGuy

    Point #1. It took Bowen until the age of 28 to really establish himself as a top flight defender in this league. Of all the attributes a player can have, playing defense is the one most likely to be learned. Passing, shooting, scoring, rebounding, dribbling, finishing at the rim, jump hooks, dunking, and stealing passes take a certain degree of natural skill and athletic reaction to accomplish. Playing D effectively takes learning combined with time. You think Bowen became a great defender because he just happened to be a great defender? Nope, it took him 6 years after college to understand that in order to shut down “X-superstar,” he had to take away y-attribute. When the touch foul on the perimeter started to be called, Bowen changed his defensive position to a 2-hands-up position to make sure he didn’t get called on touch fouls. All this is to say that being a lock down defender takes time, maturation, and study, none of which Hill has yet.

    Point #2. Saying that Pops preferring vets over rookies is unfair. Parker played 29 mins a game while Antonio Daniels played only 25 mins a game in Parker’s rookie season. It took Manu 2 years to even make the team after we drafted him. Graydon hit the nail on the head: We haven’t been in the lottery since Duncan because we are so consistently good because of our ability to find players that have been overlooked. Saying that Hill should be getting some of Finley’s minutes should watch Parker’s last drive against the Kings. You really believe Parker would have passed Hill the ball in that situation? Hardly, Parker saw a big game player open and dished it to him. Sure, time had ran out, but Ice-In-His-Veins Finley still had to shoot that shot with the authority of a 15 year scoring threat. So that shoots down the argument for Hill being used a scorer.

    Point #3. Graydon said this and I will reiterate it. We haven’t had a lottery pick since Duncan. Since then we haven’t had a pick higher than 24 and only 8 picks in the first round. There isn’t a large amount of non-lottery picks making solid contributions to a perennial Finals contender. Name someone playing important minutes for a Finals contender and I will prove he is an exception to the rule. Parker, Ian, and Hill are still with the team. Udrih played inconsistently in a back-up roll, so he was allowed to leave as a free agent and got a big salary from the Kings. Splitter would be playing for us right now, but he stayed in Europe because he could make more money than the NBA rookie scale would pay him, so that’s out of the Spurs’ control. 2 other picks, John Salmons, and Leandro Barbosa are very good players that we couldn’t keep due to previous trades that brought championship pieces to the Spurs. As a bonus, each of those 2 guys are very good players, which is a testament to our drafting ability. The only guy who isn’t in the league anymore is Felipe Lopez, a guy we traded to Vancouver for Antonio Daniels. Our drafting abilities are pretty dang snazzy.

    Point #4. The Spurs haven’t given up yet on a chance to go all the way. We can beat any team not named the Lakers in a 7 game series with the team we have now. It seems to me that most have given up on this team. What a bloody shame, to have the proudest and most loyal fans literally begging for a playoff tank to give a rookie some playoff experience.

    Point #5. Tim is the window, and this window is slowly closing shut. That is life. We can choose to politely bow out (playing rookies that the coaching staff obviously doesn’t have a lot of faith in), or we can choose to go down scratching and clawing and beating teams we weren’t supposed to and winning games that were deemed over before they begun (dancing with who brung ya). We will not mosey sedately into the sunset, we will not ponder morosely out of town; we will kick ass until we can no longer kick ass, just like the defenders of the Alamo did.

  • GMT

    Even though Hill may not be Bruce Bowen, he could become just as good on D as Bruce is. It took Bowen years to develop into the stopper that he is. Hill may be smaller, but he’s a more versatile offensive player than Bowen.

  • gospurs44

    You can find good picks at the end of the first round. David Lee 30, Jason Maxiell mid 20’s, Kevin Martin 26th, etc. I look at a team like the Lakers who used to drafts at the end of the first round and they’ve done a pretty good job. Walton 2nd round, Vujacic 27th pick, Bynum 10th pick but experts thought that was to high for him, Turiaf 2nd round (left via free agency), Farmar 26th pick. All these players now play a role for them. Turiaf until this year. It frustrates me to death that we can’t draft a college kid and actually see some progress. Hill is a perfect example! He looked great to start the year and then Pop jerks with his confidence, has him switch to a position he’s not suited to play and then says he’s not ready. I agree he’s not but he could have been!! As for the Toros, they’ve only been around for a couple of years but I still haven’t seen where the Spurs have seen the fruits of their labor.
    Love the Blog, keep up the good work!

  • SpurredOn

    ThatBigGuy - You got me ready to rock & roll. It is playoff time and only one current group of guys can show off a full trophy case knowing that they’re the champions who brought them home. Those guys reside in San Antonio. It is my hope that reality is reminded quickly and often in these playoffs.

    gospurs44 - I too have wondered why the Lakers have done a good job developing solid role players. Their stars came via trade but the guys you listed were all draft choices that matured under Zenmaster Phil. As much as I don’t like him, he is very good at getting guys to focus on the details and fit their play to his triangle system. It may just be that he is better than Pop at developing young guys or at least has more patience. But it is also true that most of these guys grew up when the Lakers had no other talent. Thus they had a three year stretch of no playoffs, then two 1st round exits. If they would’ve had vets to surround Kobe with and try for a championship they would’ve. Those guys got better because they played but only because L.A. had no other options. When you are a 7 seed with no chance at a title, the young guys play. When you have a chance, you tend to leave playoff games in the hands of veterans.

  • http://www.48minutesofhell.com Graydon Gordian

    I think SpurredOn makes a good point about the difference between the Lakers post-Shaq/pre-Gasol trade and the Spurs over the last 5 years.

    Anyways, I just wanted to thank everyone for a hearty debate today. Whether you realize it or not, Tim and I really do appreciate your commentary. We are constantly mentioning to one another that we learn things from you guys everyday. Today was no exception.

    After the season is over and the draft approaches, we should definitely address this topic again.

  • ChillFAN

    Great comments, good discussion.

    Graydon, I agree with you that Pop can develop players when he wants to: Tim, Tony, and Bowen are proof of that. NBA success is never guaranted, not even for Tim Duncan.

    GoSpurs44, I agree with you on some points, but what say we shelve this debate for the offseason?

    Stop the what-ifs or should-ofs, we have the roster set and we know the players. The Spurs are right where they need to be: about to enter the playoffs with all the pieces needed to win and advance.

    So step up your game, fellow posters. Sharpen that wit, put your feelings aside, and just tell it how you see it-this Hornet’s game is as important as any game on the horizon. As far as the Spurs are concerned the playoffs start tonight against the Hornets.

  • Will

    Sorry ChillFAN but I want to rebound one last time on a few things TBG said. After that we can all agree to disagree and cheer for the same team and hope they go all the way.

    So, to TBG: first of all your point #4 is uncalled for. That’s all I will say about it.

    Point #3, nobody said the Spurs didn’t draft well. Obviously they do, and I think it’s fair to say we all agree on that. What we are discussing is what they do with the players they have drafted.

    Point #2, I don’t understand your example with Parker/Finley. There is obviously a realm of possibilities between playing Hill major minutes or in the clutch, and not playing him at all. Can you seriously say that during the last stretch of games (where the Spurs basically sucked big time) none of Vaughn or Finley’s minutes could have gone to Hill? I trust Pop as much as any other guy (or more) but this is really hard for me to swallow this season. Yes, he’s a rookie, but as I’ve said before, it’s not like the other options are so much better.

    Now, and to bring something new to the table, I’ve given it a bit more thought and the following struck me as very odd, from Pop: “He’s working at the one guard, working at the two-three”.

    I took it for granted that Hill would be our future back-up point, with maybe a few shooting guard duties when the Spurs needed a push on the offense. But now I’m wondering if that’s really what Pop has in mind - otherwise why have Hill “work at the two-three”? Did the Spurs change their mind and Hill isn’t forecast to be Parker’s back-up any longer, but rather the next Ginobili?

  • gospurs44

    I would like to ask Pop these questions? If you expect Hill to be a part of this team’s future, why in the hell would you give 1 of his minutes to JV? What has JV done to make you think he is the better option?
    TBG- Salmons and Barbosa were pre-arranged draft day deals.
    Good points by all. Look forward to addressing this after the season.
    Go Spurs!!!

  • Ben Smith

    We assuming that Pop is telling the truth about benching Hill for the postseason?

  • rou

    Beno: Part 2

  • ChillFAN

    Every time, I think I’m out, they suck me back in…
    Ben Smith, I think Pop is telling Spurs fans, don’t expect for Hill to be a priority.
    Rou, Beno part 2?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEySaI_yBRQ

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HlET1K9hCBo

  • Xavier

    I’ll throw my two pennies on the pavement and side with Graydon that Pop can develop talent. Basketball fan’s need to remember that the Spurs don’t build through the draft like traditional teams: they most always pick late into the 2nd round, often go for Euro seasoned players or trade for young/veteran talent. In reality they hardly have young talent to develop and the talent they do have are either in Europe or D-League. One example of developed talent would be Beno Udrih. Many of you may believe Udrih is a scrub but I think Sacramento would argue that he was vital in them winning the few games they were able to win. So vital is Udrih to Sacramento he played an average of 31 minutes in his 72 games played. The Spurs use an unorthodox method of “molding” the players around the team concept and cannot be viewed as a traditional team that relies on the draft. Spurs members adapt to the system rather than develop. Good or bad, it seem’s to be the Spurs way of building a solid team year in/year out.

  • Pingback: 48 Minutes of Hell » Blog Archive » A Crown That Seldom Kings Enjoy: Assessing Pop’s Performance()

  • Pingback: How Well Do the Spurs Draft?()

  • Pingback: A Crown That Seldom Kings Enjoy: Assessing Pop’s Performance()