Friday, April 2nd, 2010...12:54 am
NBA Championship dreams? Think big or go home
Is Tim Duncan still better than Dwight Howard?
The Devil’s greatest trick was convincing the world that he didn’t exist. Michael Jordan’s greatest feat? Convincing the NBA that greatness is measured in 40-inch verticals wrapped in 6-foot-6 packages.
Since Jordan hoisted his NBA Finals clinching shot over Byron Russell, it’s been assumed that the next great player would come replete with game-clinching fadeaway jumpers and ESPN highlight packages.
But if history has shown us anything, it’s that the league has been littered with high-flying, high-scoring swingmen. Yet most championship teams have been built on the sturdy foundations of seven-foot behemoths. That Michael Jordan finished as the greatest player of all time from his position is the exception, not the rule.
Tonight two of those giants face off at the AT&T Center in Tim Duncan and Dwight Howard. And while Duncan may represent the old guard, Howard’s best days are still ahead of him and the Orlando Magic. What do they share in common? Many fans will miss out on their greatness while looking for the next facsimile of Michael Jordan.
Post Jordan, the NBA sifted through several suitors to take up the title of game’s best player. While the world first tried to awkwardly force the mantle onto Kobe Bryant, Tim Duncan was quietly dropping in bank shots on the way to the San Antonio Spurs first title.
As Vince Carter and Tracy McGrady’s brief ascensions into greatness came and quickly flickered out, Duncan was quietly drop-stepping his way to three NBA Finals MVPs.
When the NBA’s newest wave of superstars first emerged on the scene-starting with the LeBron James/Carmelo Anthony/Dwyane Wade draft-casual fans and lazy columnists were quick to point out that the NBA finally had successors worthy to Jordan’s shoes, even as Duncan proved himself to be, from a basketball standpoint at least, the greatest player of his era.
For many, the 2007 NBA Finals between the Spurs and Cavaliers were looked upon as the potential coronation of King James. All the while fans cheated themselves out by overlooking another masterful performance from one of the league’s top 10 greatest players of all time.
The coronation of LeBron James continues today. It’s widely assumed that James will win multiple titles over the course of his career-I’ve already submitted my argument for LeBron being the best player-but isn’t it just as likely that Dwight Howard wins those titles?
The Orlando Magic were in the NBA Finals last year and are again one of the handful of NBA teams that can reasonably expect to compete for a championship this year. Dwight Howard is easily the best player on a defensive squad saturated with reputably sub par defenders.
Yet, when talking about the NBA’s great young stars most lists go through the likes of LeBron James, Dwyane Wade, Carmelo Anthony, Chris Paul and now even Kevin Durant before Howard’s name enters the discussion.
Often times diversity, skill sets and statistics, especially offensively, are set as the standards for measuring greatness. So the following argument might be met with heavy opposition, but, Dwight Howard is a better basketball player than Wade, Anthony, Paul and Durant.
Absurd? All the aforementioned players are certainly more skilled and offensively more dynamic right now than Howard will ever be. But can you honestly say that any of them make as big an impact on both sides of the floor?
Basketball analysis is hypocritical. On one hand, it’s cliched but accepted to say that defense wins championships. On the other, we measure greatness in terms of offensive statistics and skill set. Defense is generally left to role players and coaching schemes.
More than any other player since Tim Duncan (and Duncan continues this role for the Spurs to this day), Dwight Howard is quite literally his team’s defensive scheme. Like Brent Barry and Danny Ferry of days past, Howard’s teammates have been players who, to put it kindly, are not known for being defensively inclined. Yet the Orlando Magic are consistently a top tier defensive team.
In basketball there will always be a simple statement that, no matter how small and fast the NBA trends toward, will always ring true. Height cannot be taught. And while height in itself might not seem like an NBA skill, when a player combines it with athleticism, skill and defensive instincts, that player is a much easier piece to build a championship team around than even the most talented wing player (not named Michael Jordan).
This is because at heart basketball is a simple game and it’s most complicated analysis boils down to a simple fact, the team that can both make and prevent the easiest baskets has the greatest chance to win.
The best perimeter defender in the world (take Bruce Bowen for example) might be able to shut down a single player, but ultimately his impact is limited to that one player. A defensive big man (Tim Duncan) is more valuable because his presence near the rim effects the opposing team’s entire offense, no matter who he’s guarding.
Offensively, for all the skills and otherworldly moves the Kobe Bryant’s, Dwyane Wade’s, or Chris Paul’s of the world unleash, none will ever be as effective as catching the ball a few feet from the basket, turning and shooting a hook shot over a helpless defender.
Dynamic wing players have the ability to make the most difficult shots imaginable, which is certainly a valuable commodity. But dominant big men can get the easiest shots whenever they want to.
So while Kobe Bryant might be the Lakers’ best player, it’s Pau Gasol that keys the Lakers’ championship aspirations. Before Gasol, the Lakers were first round playoff fodder for a Suns team that was, itself, soft in the middle.
The championship teams before the Lakers? They featured Kevin Garnett, Tim Duncan, Shaq and Wallace (Ben and Rasheed).
The lesson? Impact being equal, size still matters.
69 Comments
April 2nd, 2010 at 1:51 am
Well written and quite true. You need good guard play to finish games and series, but it’s still a big man’s league and they can do more to help their guards than guards can to help them.
April 2nd, 2010 at 2:29 am
It also helps that a 7 foot guy starting a game is still 7 ft tall at the end of it.
April 2nd, 2010 at 4:19 am
Go Spurs Go!!
April 2nd, 2010 at 4:58 am
A win tonight would be huge, given that we’re in a virtual tie with Portland for 7th (who wins the tiebreaker?). Their next game is against SAC, a practical W in the bank; if we could keep pace with a W against the Magic (quite possibly the best team in the league right now), that would be sweeeeeeeeeeeet. Although, as this blog has pointed out, this is a team we really struggle with. We’ll need Manu to be huge. I don’t expect much offensively from Timmy, but a big game from him would really make me feel better about this team.
Go Spurs Go!
April 2nd, 2010 at 6:18 am
Fantastic. I wish I could write so well.
April 2nd, 2010 at 6:23 am
Dwight Howard is great, but Lebron is starting to look more and more like that transcendant wing player that can win without a dominant big.
Through 41 games this season Howard had a WP48 of .341. This is really, really, good.
James had a WP48 of .420. This is ridiculous.
Last year Howard had a WP48 of .378, even better. James ahd a WP48 of .436 (and he plays more minutes). The dude is a production machine.
Of course, these scores our position adjusted and it is easier to produce, as was pointed out, closer to the basket. More rebounds, easier shots, etc.
Using win score to look at raw per game production, Howard has a WS of 14.7 and James a WS of 14.
So it looks like Howard produces a bit more, but less relative to his position. So if you surrounded each with average players at every position James’ team should win (at least if you believe in wages of wins). I wonder who’s supporting cast is better?
April 2nd, 2010 at 6:29 am
Good Article. Most NBA championship teams had a contributing player at the 5 spot. We only have one true center and he gets more DNP’s than the coach.
It is extrmely puzzling. Spurs get beat in the paint defensively and on the boards consistently. They have a young center on the bench that they just will not play.
Even if he played 10 minutes and gave Spurs 3 blocks and 5 rebounds, his production would be huge. Who cares if he picks up a few fouls. With a little PT he could work that out.
My assumption is that the team is throwing in the towel. To even consider going into the Western Conference playoffs with a PF playing center, and his back up is a 6′7 rookie with no ACL’s in his knees, is bizarre from any angle.
I wouldnt hesitate to play Mahinmi against any team in the Western conference playoffs. Why not? It would be flat out stupid to wait until D Blair and Mcdyess are in foul trouble or get injured to play this kid,.
Its not because his name is Ian. Wouldnt matter who my 7 foot center is at this point, with this awful frontcourt, he would play. Pop acts as if this kid is just too horrible to contribute, yet in the same breath, he calls for Bogans and Bonner to eat up minutes.
Bogans brings nothing. Shouldnt have been here in the first place.
Bonner is a victim of himself and this coach. Over the years that he has been here and getting significant minutes, he could have improved his game. Added dimensions to it. He failed to do so. Indicates to me that what he shows now is all he has. Translation, cut him and move on, and for heavens sake, bring in a real basketball player or two at that spot.
Im watching the College tournament….There are literally tons of PF’s that could help at a bargain basement price.
However, if the coach and Fo continue to bring in players with more character than talent, we are doomed.
As for the team, its in turmoil. We hear of these ideas that certain ALL PRO players cannot play with other players. Jeff cant play without Ginnobli, or Hill cant play with Parker, etc…
True Players can play with thier Aunt Susie if need be. The rest is just excuses.
April 2nd, 2010 at 6:33 am
Nicely done. Its funny to think about all the “next-big-things” and their trade-demand drama over the years, while the whole time Timmy always had his team in a position to win.
April 2nd, 2010 at 6:41 am
I can’t believe that SI article. It was very lazy writing. Of course Duncan is going to say he’s not in the top ten and if he did the writer would say that he was arrogant and self centered. It’s sad that people have missed out on the greatness that is Timmy. I would think anyone that has watched more than 5 games that Duncan has played in would know he’s in the top 10 of all time, and greatest PF of all time.
April 2nd, 2010 at 6:57 am
Great article. It isn’t very often that the flashy offensive small men can carry a team to more than the first round of the playoffs. But when they can take their team farther, it sure is amazing to see. That is why they are considered so great.
@BallHog
I’ve really seen some improvement in Bonner’s game over the years. He puts the ball on the floor a lot more and takes it to the rim. At times it doesn’t look great but I’ve seen him make some impressive teardrops/hookshots. That being said, I’d prefer to see him just sticking to shooting the 3 ball. Leave the other offensive dimensions to the four other players on the court.
I’m not quite sure about Bogans…some days he really impresses me, other times I forget he’s even on the court…
April 2nd, 2010 at 7:23 am
One of your best columns, well deserving of today’s link on Truehoops. I remember seeing the night in the SBC Center (so long ago it had its original name) when Howard caught an alley-oop with less than 2 seconds on the clock and dunked over Tim to win. Talk around the league the next day was that we’d seen the future, and Howard would leap over our beloved Hall of Famer. That, and Howard saying his role model was Tim.
That was several years ago, before anyone called the Magic’s big man Superman. 20 rebounds last night against a Mavs team with plenty of talent. Orlando, with endless ways to outscore you, perimeter and inside with Superman, challenges us tonight.
Tonight is only a possible win with a Manu game the likes of last week’s Cavs sparkler, or his anything-he-wants showstopper in the Celtics win. The Spurs must outhit 3s — or face the same crushing loss as they did in last year’s visit from Orlando. Hedo and the rest shot the lights out in ’09’s ATT Center vist, and Howard took care of the paint. The Spurs never saw Orlando again, until they could watch them in the finals.
With the coming week a meat grinder on par with March’s, tonight’s home game is a huge chance for a major win. Both to convince the Spurs and their fans that Tony’s return can make the playoffs more than a tease, and to show off our Big Man’s game once more. The week is a mine field. Five games in seven days starting Sunday, four on the road and two back to backs. Only the Griz and the Kings to supply any relief. Playing West seeds 1, 4 and 5, all away. And those 4 and 5 games are the second of back to backs. And think of how hard Denver and Phoenix will be playing, trying to climb out of the bracket slot where the Lakers await in Round 2.
The wild card may be Tony’s return in time for Phoenix, another place the crowd hates us with battery-throwing passion. Absolutely, a paint presence, both on Spurs defense and Manu-Tony penetration, can keep our Spurs out of the dreaded 8th seed. As for the big men other than Tim, since Ian doesn’t play, we can wish for Blair to outplay his height and master Pao, Amare and Nene in one week. Welcome to the NBA, rook. Along with G. Hill, you’re part of our future that still doesn’t include a Tim apprentice on the roster. At least not one who plays.
April 2nd, 2010 at 8:11 am
For those that haven’t noticed, Tim Duncan is the center right now.
April 2nd, 2010 at 8:29 am
@ Jesse,
And still the best center in the league, with highest PER and points per 48 minutes at that position.
April 2nd, 2010 at 8:37 am
@Jesse Blanchard,
Never thought I would say this; but, “in defense of Ballhog,” I don’t think he ever argued that Duncan wasn’t playing center. Rather, he was saying that Mahimi is the Spurs’ only “true center” and deserves more playing time, particularly when considering 48Minutes’ contention that in championships “size matters.”
Actually, that maybe not what Ballhog means at all. So just chalk it up to my own two cents.
April 2nd, 2010 at 8:49 am
@Cheyenne Harty
So often assists are needed. Thanks for that one. Size has always been critical in the NBA. Now that centers around the league are mostly marginal, A guy like Mahinmi could actually hang.
On a side note…
Wow! Cowboys release Flozell……
April 2nd, 2010 at 9:16 am
Please stop calling the Sac. game a win, that is what everyone said about the Nets game.
April 2nd, 2010 at 9:35 am
I think Ballhog has a few good points, but some that I disagree with. He is a good coach. He has a system that is taking this team to the playoffs even though some (many?) of the pieces in that system are not playing to the caliber they should. Nevertheless, the young bloods are deserving of more time in my opinion.
I of course have never played at the NBA level and I am an average size person (those two are probably connected) but from the games I have played and watched, I fully believe that altering shots is the best defensive weapon. Even if Tim and Dwight don’t block every shot that comes by them, they make their opponent shoot in a way that is not their most comfortable. Even the best offensive players, like Kobe, will see their shot percentage decrease when they are forced to alter their shot.
The big difference I see between Bonner and Mahimni is that Mahimni can be the inside presence that causes opponents to alter their shots, decreasing the other team’s productivity. This is why a fast wing defender like Hairston is valuable as well as why an athletic center like Ian can be a game changer against the Magic tonight.
I want to see these guys increase their playing time and be productive. Then, let’s sign Splitter. I still think that a future of Mahimni, Blair, Splitter, Hill, and Hairston looks pretty bright.
April 2nd, 2010 at 10:13 am
@pastypride - Portland wins a tie breaker with us since we went 0-3 vs them. We win a tie with OKC however.
April 2nd, 2010 at 10:37 am
it was time for flozell to go… lumbering, fat, penalty machine that he is, I’m surprised he managed to anchor the tackle spot for this long.
April 2nd, 2010 at 11:01 am
What has puzzled me all year with Pop is his failure to try certain players in game situations against teams we are likely to face in the playoffs. This happened with Theo. Could he have helped us against guys like Gasol, Bynum, Boozer, Aldridge, Amare, Nowitzki, etc.? We don’t know because first he never tried him, then he shipped him out (and Larry Brown tried him and he’s no slouch as a coach). Same goes for Haislip and Mahinmi. Could any of these three offer some resistance against Howard tonight? We don’t know, and whatever Pop and the FO say, they don’t know either. What we do know is that no one else on the team has been able to, and that includes Timmy. What’s more, I’m not sure you’d even want Timmy to try. That’s a helluva way to run a ship.
April 2nd, 2010 at 11:22 am
I think Kenny Smith summed up pretty nicely last night what the knock on Howard is. To paraphrase:
The best players don’t have to have excuses made for them about why they’re not getting the ball. They demand it from their teammates.
As good as Howard is defensively, he should be more involved in the offense - and involved doesn’t mean asking for more shots in the press. Right now Howard’s career trajectory is somewhere around David Robinson’s - the main difference is Howard is surrounded by much more talent. But they are both hyper-athletic, supremely talented defensive bigmen without much in terms of offensive go-to moves in the low post. Aside from Dunks, put backs, and transition buckets, the cuppord’s pretty bare. If he’s surrounded by enough talent, maybe he wins some rings.
Not a bad career - but if he wants to move up to the Hakeeem or higher Duncan levels he needs to improve his footwork and be a bigger part of the offense that makes his teammates better.
April 2nd, 2010 at 11:52 am
great article, but you didn’t exactly cover “is tim duncan still better than dwight howard” argumnet.
i strongly hesitate to say this considering the difference in age, but duncan is still better. supposedly patrick (ch)ewing and dwight howard study tim duncan in hopes that dwight may learn some things. the truth is, dwight should model is game off of robinson more than duncan. to try to emmulate duncan requires much more than film study. it requires a particular personaltiy trait of meticulous polish and intelligence. dwight howard muscles and leaps his way to 20 and 15 games where as tim, to this day, executes and thinks his way to 20 and 10
OUR BEST CHANCE TO WIN A TITLE IS PLAYING LA IN THE 1ST ROUND!
we are an older team and anyone in the west will have to face the lakers anyway. why not now when we are playing our best? this will also be the most fresh we can be in a playoff series. shouldn’t loser our way to the 8th seed, but it could be a blessing in desguise
April 2nd, 2010 at 11:54 am
Great article. Well written.
April 2nd, 2010 at 12:11 pm
Phoenix Suns to sign Dwayne Jones for the rest of the season. C’mon Spurs, what’s wrong with this guy?
April 2nd, 2010 at 12:17 pm
Looking at our front line, I know it’s been frustrating for many fans on this blog to not see a guy like Ian get much burn. That said, you just can’t overlook his weaknesses, which at this point are still quite large. He is a fundamentally unsound defender in the paint, and often gets lost on defensive rotations. He gets way too many fouls per minute on the floor. With more minutes this would result in our getting in the penalty early on a regular basis, which would give up an unacceptable number of FREE points to the opposition. He’s also a very unpolished offensive player, and does not quite know how to “fit” within the offensive scheme. This would cause us problems with longer & more steady minutes.
That said, he clearly does have some athletic talent for a seven-footer, which is important, and is why we’ve spent so much time & effort to develop him. For example, he’s actually pretty good at guarding the pick & roll outside the paint (a nice skill), he has some shot-blocking ability (sorely needed), and also appears to have a knack for getting the ball in the hole, although this has been primarily against inferior competition, or in garbage time.
I’m skeptical that he’s going to make it in this league as anything but a bottom of the bench type player (i.e., Mbenga in LA), but I’d have to be able to see him in practice on a regular basis, & talk to the coaches to make a more firm assessment.
Mark in Austin
April 2nd, 2010 at 11:22 am
Fair points, but it’s unlikely Howard is ever going to score 71 points in one game, as D. Robinson did. Dwight’s got a ways to go to catch David as an offensive player.
April 2nd, 2010 at 12:25 pm
rj
April 2nd, 2010 at 11:52 am
“OUR BEST CHANCE TO WIN A TITLE IS PLAYING LA IN THE 1ST ROUND!”
I hate to be the one to bring you the bad news: WE’RE NOT GOING TO BE WINNING A TITLE THIS YEAR.
And even if a miracle did happen, we should not want to play LA in the first round. There is absolutely no logic in that idea that the FO would find very convincing. None.
April 2nd, 2010 at 12:51 pm
We are not likely to win a title this year, but since I want to win a title every year regardless of whether or not it’s reasonable, I’d rathe ber a 6 or 8 seed then a 7. Right now LA is not playing great and Utah is. I’d rather face Utah in the finals after giving TP more time to integrate with us. As for the FO, they should hope forever whatever keeps them in the longest clearly. I agree we’re a small market team that needs the money.
April 2nd, 2010 at 12:54 pm
Tim Duncan is not better than Dwight Howard right now. Period.
April 2nd, 2010 at 12:59 pm
Dwight Howard is overrated right now.
April 2nd, 2010 at 1:03 pm
At his best (first half of the season), I’d still take Duncan over Howard because while Howard is virtually all power and no finesse (Gasol is the opposite), Duncan is the perfect blend of the two, which is part of the reason he was/is better than O’Neal and Garnett in their salad days. But, because of durability issues, Howard is the better player to have over the grind that is the NBA season. Still, if Duncan is physically right come playoff time, there’s still not another big I’d rather have than him.
April 2nd, 2010 at 1:24 pm
Dwight Howard dominated that Mavs last night. His blocks and goal tends made them change the way they ran their offense. The key was that he got 0 fouls in 42 minutes.
From 1998 to 2003, I knew that we were almost a lock to win the game if the score was close and both David and Tim had a low number of fouls. The could build a nearly perfect wall around the rim.
The key to tonight’s game is how many fouls Manu and George can get on Dwight. This means attacking the rim from the opposite side as Dwight, getting him into the circle and jumping into him without reguard for the block. A foul on Howard is worth much more than two points.
This is where not having Tony really hurts.
April 2nd, 2010 at 1:49 pm
Bentley
April 2nd, 2010 at 12:54 pm Tim Duncan is not better than Dwight Howard right now. Period
———————-
Agreed but definetly better offensively than Howard…Duncan has way more ammo in his arsenal than howard who gets 90 percent of his points via dunks. Duncan can post you, Dunk on you, shoot over you, pump fake you. Howard tries to just overpower you. How is howards mid range jumper?
April 2nd, 2010 at 2:08 pm
To add to what Jim Henderson said, Mark from Austin, I’m going to have to agree that David Robinson was always a much more complete offensive player than Dwight Howard is or likely will be. Perhaps that gets forgotten since Howard is surrounded by such talent, but Robinson was an amazingly solid player on both ends of the floor. Offensively, the Admiral’s soft hands, sure jumper, and blistering speed averaged 29.8 points in one season. That’s almost 10 more points per game than Howard in his best year. And Robinson’s career average in points-even including the offensively deferential tail-end of his career-are more than Howard’s highest single-season total. And Howard’s already six years into his career. Simply put, he’ll never been the offensive juggernaught Robinson was. (As a final nail in the coffin of this argument, look at Robinson’s assist numbers compared to Howard’s. Again, Robinson’s career averages significantly surpass Howard’s best single season-and that’s even with Howard being surrounded by some of the best shooters in the league. (Please excuse the rabbit trail within a rabbit trail here, but don’t forget about free throw percentages. There’s a reason Howard doesn’t often have the ball in his hands at the end of close games.))
And while the two superstars are more comparable on defense, Robinson is still more impressive. He averaged a simply sick 4.5 blocks per game and 2.3 steals per game in his 3rd season in the league. What was Howard doing at that time in his career? Less than half as much in both catagories. Half. And it wasn’t just a season of fluke greatness for Robinson, either. Once again, his career averages in both catagories are significantly higher than Howard’s.
In fairness, Howard’s a better rebounder. Not a much better rebounder, but at least somewhat better.
All of this is not to say that I dislike Howard. Actually, his self-effacing, friendly attitude is a breath of fresh air in a typically egotistic league. And his athleticism is undeniable. But I got to stick up for Mr. Robinson.
April 2nd, 2010 at 2:16 pm
@ agut
Haislip isn’t on the team and hasn’t been for awhile, so quit including him in your “give them a chance” arguments. He wasn’t getting the burn he thought he deserved (which is a character red flag) and so he asked and received his release.
@ muwu
Dwayne Jones is slow slow slow. He gets his numbers because he’s big and stronger than the weak competition in the very weak D-league. I’ve been to Toro games and have seen him play. He doesn’t move with any semblance of athleticism. He is the very definition of a “plodder.” He’d get eaten alive by any sort of mobile big man.
I like Dwight. I think his up-side potential could possibly be a Shaq/Robinson hybrid. He’s already got the power of a quasi Shaq and the mobility of David, now he just has to meld everything together. Two things I witnessed last night that makes me believe he’s on his way.
1. He had a running, left-handed hook shot from the right block that was impressive to say the least. But the fact that he read when and then where the double team was coming from, ripped the ball through the help, and got into the wide open paint was even more impressive. That was a legitimate read and react post move.
2. His shot blocking is becoming less Shawn Kemp and more Duncan. Sure, he had at least one that he blocked out of bounds, but I’ll cut him some slack on that one since he blocked it left handed while swooping across the lane at full speed. But his block against Berea where he literally palmed it and brought it down instead of sending it into the 18th row was beautiful.
If he can get his free throw % up to 70ish, he’ll average 26 ppg no problem. He is definitely a center with which you could build a championship team.
April 2nd, 2010 at 5:05 pm
I think that at the very least, every dominant championship team has that dominant big man who, while not necessarily is the “best player,” is a very effective “sidekick” to the “superstar” - the Lakers had Kareem, Chamberlain, Shaq and now Gasol; the Celtics had Russell, Parish and now Garnett; the Rockets had Hakeem; the Spurs had Robinson and Duncan. These players (with the possible exception of Chamberlain) were not really the ones who solely carried the team in their shoulders, but they were effective enough to make the other players be legitimate threats.
April 2nd, 2010 at 7:05 pm
Wow!!!!!!!! what a great win. great win of the season. iam impressed GO Spurs! GO!
April 2nd, 2010 at 7:06 pm
Manu Is a not a man. he is a michine what a play manu Giiiiinnnnnnnnnooooooooobbbbiiiilllllliiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii
April 2nd, 2010 at 7:07 pm
Hey Fakers manu is coming beware of manu. Go! Spurs Go!
April 2nd, 2010 at 7:13 pm
Great win tonight! Good to see the Spurs playing their best when it counts……..playoff time!
Let’s see what happens and who we draw.
Junierizzle
“Dwight Howard is overrated right now”
Uhhh….over 18 ppg, 13.5 rpg, and almost 3 blks per game? Yeah dude is soooo overrated. Not. Those stats speak for themselves, especially the rebounds and blocks. Even though he didn’t quite perform up to par tonight, still not enough to change my stance.
While I’m not getting into the conversation about how he compares to Duncan/Robinson etc, he is anything but overrated and probably the best 5 in the league right now. So, I would say he is pretty good.
April 2nd, 2010 at 7:14 pm
Manu is a Machine………
April 2nd, 2010 at 7:20 pm
F*** of your article Dan Shaughnessy(SI.com ) Duncan is only the fourth player in NBA history to scored 20,000 points with 10,000 rebounds, 2,000 blocks and 2,500 assists (alongside Kareem, Hakeem and Shaq)
He’s the first player in NBA history to be named All-NBA and All-Defensive teams in each of his first 12 seasons.
Tim Duncan is defenitely top 10 of all-time
great player!! NoDoubt about it. Go! Spurs GO!!!!
April 2nd, 2010 at 7:23 pm
Today I have seen a Playoff type play by Timmy. GO SpursGO!!!
April 2nd, 2010 at 7:39 pm
Daniel B - Show me anything in my comment that said Howard and Robinson were on the same level offensively. All I said is that they both don’t have go-to post moves and are better defensive than offensive players. The next sentence was meant to describe Howard - maybe you thought I was talking about them both in terms of dunks, putbacks, etc.
It would be hard to find a bigger Robinson fan or defender than I am - and the pre-injury David is clearly the better player compared to Howard - but I stand by my original post. Howard might win a ring or two as a complimentary player, but if he ever wants to be able to carry a team to a title like Hakeem did in ‘94 or Duncan did in ‘03, he needs to be spending his summers watching tape of Hakeem and Duncan. He needs go-to post moves for the post season.
April 2nd, 2010 at 7:52 pm
Phenomenal Win! Ginobili on fire! Resign him right away.
Bonner, impressive game. He’s not living on the 3 pt line anymore. But, playing the Magic was advantageous in that their 4 man(Lewis, Anderson) is a perimeter player and not a post up/shot blocker like we’ll face in the playoffs. But, nevertheless, good game.
McDyess played great battling Howard and getting offensive rebounds.
Bogans under 6 minutes, good. I still believe Hairston should get his minutes as well as those of Mason. We need Hairston’s athletic ability for defense/rebounding more than Mason’s shaky ball handling and lousy 3 pt shooting.
Jefferson hasn’t made a jumper in the last 4 games. Jumper=shot outside of the paint
How come his jumper has vanished? He needs to be told by coaches “Never ever shoot a jumper.”
Duncan 23 pts in 24 minutes, way to be aggressive and assertive, we’ll need that come playoff time.
Great win. Go Spurs Go.
April 2nd, 2010 at 8:49 pm
With respects to my favorite Argentinean, I particularly enjoyed Professor Ducan’s teachings from the lectern this evening.
Said Dr. Duncan:
“Good evening Mr. Gortat, I advise you to pay attention, particularly on my chapter on post moves; their might be a quiz. As you will find in your readings, it is not advisable to lunge forward when an opponent seems to be setting his feet for a trusty bank shot. This may very well be an attempt at deception, and the unsuspecting defender will likely suffer punishment. Furthermore, if you have avoided the shot fake and managed to keep up with a spinning drive to the left, do not move too hastily towards the rim, as you will simply open space for an embarrassing baby hook that is easily makeable when launched at a 49-degree arc.”
Take notes students. Take notes.
April 2nd, 2010 at 8:58 pm
woo..thats a huge win!now i think the spurs have the chance to win the title again as long as ginobili stays healthy as well as duncan,and kinda little help from jefferson, i think hes worth playing for the spurs.and im proud the other spurs players are helping too..and lets not forget tony.hes a great player.remember hes the MVP when they sweep the CAVS!! keep doin great.i still believe in you SPURS!!
Go Spurs Go!!
April 2nd, 2010 at 9:16 pm
so tonight timmy proved his the best big man in the league. with manu having the biggest heart, and pop the best coach were not out of this yet.
April 3rd, 2010 at 1:00 am
hey just a heads up. Ian is not very good and has not been very good for quiet some time. The main issue is poor d and just being raw .
Apparently though, being seven foot and athletic means you rock enough to log heavy playoff minutes.
In actual fact it generally means your what is termed a project. Maybe if we had thabeet we could play him and ian together so they could take turns screwing up help defence and looking inept on the low block.
April 3rd, 2010 at 4:12 am
“SAS
April 2nd, 2010 at 7:20 pm
Duncan is only the fourth player in NBA history to scored 20,000 points with 10,000 rebounds, 2,000 blocks and 2,500 assists (alongside Kareem, Hakeem and Shaq)”
set the bar for assists to 2,400 and david robinson makes that list as well.
April 3rd, 2010 at 5:35 am
In his The Book of Basketball, Bill Simmons has Duncan ranked #7 all time. It’s a great read. It shows much more insight than Dan Shaughnessy’s analysis does.
April 3rd, 2010 at 6:32 am
Magic were luke warm, but Spurs did play a better game. Perfect allocation of minutes for Bogans….However, maybe 5 minutes too many.
Hairston should have gotten a chance to guard Petrius.
Ginnobliu killed. Second game straight that Duncan decided to get his big azz back in the low block. Again, welecome home Timmy.
Mcdyess is beginning to resemble himself more and more.
Hill is great as a young player, but Tony Parker is still greatly missed.
Bonner played better game. Didnt sit on the perimeter like a fan with good tickets for once. Mixed his game up a little and kept defenders off balance. He read our posts.
Front court still looks very vunerable though. It is the piece that concerns fans the most with this team. Too many 2nd chance opportunities and too many offensive boards.
Side note….Terribly officiated game. Might have been the worse called game Ive ever seem, for both teams. The Boston/OKC game was called even worse. Alarming!
@ Bushka
Still feel that Mahinmi can compete. Should be getting spot minutes. But, since you (Pops second cousin) feel that he is so hopeless…Here is my take.
Play him one on one with any role player on this roster and he kills them all. Especially your main man Matt.
No offense, but just because Bushka and Pop say the kid cant play means squat. Same guy that said many players couldnt play, including Scola. Then the genious kept Bonner, signed Bogans, and brought up 3 D League guards in the midst of frontcourt collapse. Any that choose to ignore this pattern, have that right. I choose otherwise.
Bring on Coach JimJim Henderson, as long as he doesnt go out and sign Iggy.
April 3rd, 2010 at 2:26 pm
at jim
im not saying we are going to win the title. i don’t think have had posted anything this year that has said anything of the sort. and to play devils advocate, who are you to say we won’t win it all? there is always a possibility no matter how grim the circumstances may be. how many people were saying we were not going to win a title in 2007 when dallas was supposed to be the juggernaut of the west?
i just think that it isn’t a terrible, dead-in-the-water scenario if we played LA in the first round. LA’s play of late has been questionable and we are in a surge right now beating the best in the league without one of our primary stars. anyone who has any aspirations of winning the west knows that it goes through LA so why getting a crack at them in the 1st round isn’t bad. if we lost to them (which we probably would) at least we lose to the team likely to represent the west anyway. the only losers are ticket sales.
why don’t you finish reading a post before you make an off the cuff remark
April 3rd, 2010 at 3:21 pm
rj
April 2nd, 2010 at 11:52 am
“OUR BEST CHANCE TO WIN A TITLE IS PLAYING LA IN THE 1ST ROUND!”
“rj”, that’s a quote from you above. To rephrase, you say that if we play LA in the first round, we have our best chance of winning a title. That’s what you said. Your whole premise for facing LA first is give us the best shot a winning the title. Now, let me repeat: THE CHANCES ARE VERY REMOTE (vegas odds have LA at 7/5, Spurs at 20/1) THAT WE WIN A TITLE THIS YEAR, AND PROBABLY THE BIGGEST REASON WE WILL NOT WIN A TITLE THIS YEAR IS LA.
And yet you want to play LA first? Why would anyone want the highest likelihood of losing to occur the soonest? Certainly the FO and most fans don’t!
“why don’t you finish reading a post before you make an off the cuff remark”
FYI, I read entire posts, and I NEVER make off-the-cuff remarks.
April 3rd, 2010 at 4:09 pm
BALLHOG
April 3rd, 2010 at 6:32 am
“Bring on Coach JimJim Henderson, as long as he doesnt go out and sign Iggy.”
Yeah, Iggy is a horrible idea. What could I be thinking about!
A guy, 26 years old, just about to head into his prime, and again, here’s his line from last nights game against the Raptors:
33 pts., 8 rebounds, 11 assists, 5 steals & a block, 9-14 from the field, and 4-7 from three.
Yup, the guy just can’t play. I’ve changed my mind.
April 3rd, 2010 at 7:29 pm
Good point, aside from Jordan’s Chicago Bulls these are the outstanding big men that have been key to championship teams; Gasol, Garnett, Duncan, Shaq, the Wallaces, McHale, Rodman, Parish, Worthy, M. Malone, Abdul Jabbar…the list goes on.
April 3rd, 2010 at 10:54 pm
Jim Henderson
I’d have to agree that Iguodala isn’t the type of guy we’d like to have next season. We should stick with Ginobili and look to get some younger, athletic bigs with more proven talent and experience than someone like Mahinmi. Iguodala doesn’t know how to play on a team that can’t win more than 25 games………a la Richard Jefferson……fool’s gold man. Iggy isn’t the kind of player we would like to build a team around.
April 3rd, 2010 at 10:57 pm
I’m not arguing the fact that AI can’t fill a stat sheet. There are plenty of players on horrible teams that can do that. We’re looking for players that we can build a franchise around of and Iguodala isn’t it. He is a younger version of RJ and I don’t have any reason to believe he won’t be anything more than that………
April 4th, 2010 at 1:58 am
Collin,
You act like putting up strong, ALL-AROUND numbers (not just scoring) means nothing because he plays on a “horrible” team. Number one, the Sixers are NOT a “horrible” team. Most people would not classify their record as “horrible”. The Nets yes, the T-Wolves yes, but not the Sixers. Number two, I keep hearing from guys like you that because a guy plays really well for a sub-standard team, it “usually” means he would not be nearly as good on a very good team, yet I never get examples of this from you guys when you say this. The fact is, when this does happen it’s the exception, not the rule. But go ahead, give me examples of guys that had exceptional, ALL-AROUND “numbers” on sub-standard teams that were a big flop once they went to a good team. For every one you can name, I can name three others that became tremendous assets when they came from a substandard team to a good team.
I know one thing, Iggy is a COMPLETELY different player than RJ is; always has, and always will be. Iggy has averaged about twice as many apg & spg over the past 4 years compared to RJ, plus about 1.5 more rebounds per game. Iggy is a much better passer & play-maker, a much better ball handler, and a much better defender. RJ’s never had a triple double in his nine years, Iggy’s had four in his six years, and has come very close on multiple occasions.
K. Garnett put up excellent numbers for the T-Wolves — was he suddenly crappy when he went to the Celtics and won a title? Was Ray Allen a dog when he came from the crappy Sonic team to play with a Celtic team that won the title? Did Pierce after being a star on the crappy 2006 Celtic team become a lesser player when he was paired with better talent during the 2007 title run? Did Gasol stink up the joint when coming over from the crappy Grizzly team to win a title in LA? Does it appear that Jamison simply can’t be nearly effective on the Cavs after leaving a Wiz team in disarray? I could go on all night, but I don’t have the time.
Can you give me “solid” examples of excellent, all-around players that just were a bomb once put on a good team? Is the RJ anomaly the one you can come up with? (and not a great example because RJ never was ANY of these: great shooter, play-maker, or defender).
No offense, but until you guys can come up with solid examples, I have to say, you have no idea what you’re talking about.
“We should stick with Ginobili and look to get some younger, athletic bigs with more proven talent and experience than someone like Mahinmi.”
Any brilliant ideas how to accomplish that?!? How are we going to afford it? Do we need to trade anybody? Who??!!??!!?? Ginobli is a FA, he’s 32, and he’s probably got a market value of 3-4 million per year more than we can afford to pay him! What, he’s going to stay just because he loves us?! What are your “real” solutions here, not just pie in the sky drivel?
April 4th, 2010 at 9:40 am
Jim
Don’t act offended because we don’t agree that Iguodala is who the Spurs should get. This is just locker room talk and you sound like someone killed your dog because we don’t have research-validated examples. It’s not like we’re being paid by the front office to figure this out or anything.
Elton Brand, Richard Jefferson, and Baron Davis (with the exception of a couple of years w/hornets and warriors) are a few examples……Allen Iverson for every team he played for after the Sixers……..Paul Pierce was that guy his whole career (with the exception of the one good year with Walker) until he got Ray Allen and Kevin Garnett to help him out. Gasol single-handedly led that Memphis team to a couple playoff births (although they didn’t win a game), so I wouldn’t put him in that category. Ditto with Kevin Garnett who WAS the Timberwolves, he isn’t in that category. Aside from Garnett (who has made EVERY team better), these examples of swing players really don’t matter anyhow……………..The Spurs have won their titles built around solid, Hall-of-Fame bigs and we’re not gonna compete with the best building our team around AI. My POINT is that it won’t matter if we get Iguodala in the sense that we need some new blood in the front court to make it succeed. If we solidify the front court, then fill the gaps with Iguodala-type players we can be realistic about this. As for swing players we could build a team around Lebron James, Kobe Bryant, Kevin Durant, Dwayne Wade are about it.
April 4th, 2010 at 1:27 pm
Collin,
The point is, a blog can dissolve into utter inanity and irrelevance if participants primarily engage in off-the-cuff comments, and offer completely unsubstantiated, and even illogical opinions. At least you came back this time with “something” to work with.
On your examples:
Elton Brand: Brand never went from a substandard/bad team to a good team - plus, he had one of the worst knee injuries to fully recover from mid-career as a front court player, during his first year in Philly - this example DOES NOT QUALIFY - COMPARE TO THE IGGY-TO-SPURS COMPARISON.
Baron Davis: Davis never went from a substandard/bad team to a good team. He’s always had good numbers - if anything he’s had better numbers on better teams - this example DOES NOT QUALIFY - COMPARE TO THE IGGY-TO-SPURS COMPARISON.
Allen Iverson: Iverson is notorious for not being a very good “team” player - he’s always been too much of a shooter, and not a very good one at that - he’s been a high volume scorer, but not an efficient one - early in his career, his athleticism combined with better talent allowed him to get to the finals once - his numbers were good in Denver his first year, though at his age he was now in decline - he was never a good fit for Denver - even so, it’s hard to fit Iverson with any team because he’s not & never was a good “team” player. His game is totally different than the ALL-AROUND, versatile IGGY - this example DOES NOT QUALIFY - COMPARE TO THE IGGY-TO-SPURS COMPARISON.
You say about Paul Pierce:
“Paul Pierce was that guy his whole career (with the exception of the one good year with Walker) until he got Ray Allen and Kevin Garnett to help him out. ”
THE WHOLE POINT IS THAT EXCELLENT PLAYERS ACTUALLY NEED OTHER VERY GOOD PLAYERS AROUND THEM TO WIN, SO THAT THEIR “NUMBERS” BECOME MORE THAN JUST “NUMBERS”. Your suggestion is that a very good all-around player (good overall numbers) is going to get worse (not have a central impact) when going from a worse “team” to a team with better talent - Thus, your point here is totally illogical: PIERCE STILL WAS THE FOCAL POINT ON A CELTIC TEAM THAT NOW HAD BETTER TALENT & COULD “WIN”.
Pau Gasol: Gasol had ONE year (2003-2004) in Memphis that was worth anything, and he didn’t single-handed lead that team to a playoff birth. No, I wouldn’t call playing with Mike Miller, Shane Battier, James Posey, Bonzi Wells, & Jason Williams “single-handed”. Gasol’s LAST FOUR YEARS with Memphis sucked, and then he comes to the Lakers and you see what happened in his first year.
Garnett’s first seven & last three years with the T-Wolves were lousy. Sure, he still made his team better, just like Iggy makes his team better in Philly every year, but KG didn’t have really good “team” results when he was not paired with two or three other talented players, and solid, scrappy role players. Garnett’s biggest impact came when he left a 32-50 T-Wolve team to come to the Celtics, where, as you know, he won a title.
As to your last point, and I paraphrase, you typically don’t build your team around a swing-man? Almost ALL teams are NOT built around ONE player, and we are NEVER going to have another Tim Duncan. No, most teams are built around two or three really good players, and they don’t have to be of “Wade”, “LeBron”, “Kobe” quality, OR a “big” man, because it is impossible for most teams to build that way. Take a look at OKC: they’re building around Durant (very lucky to have him), Westbrook, and Green (they have high hopes for Ibaka to be a bigger factor some day); Portland: Roy (very lucky to have him), Aldridge, & Batum. And neither of the those teams have an aging but competent superstar on their roster. Granted, Iggy, Hill, Dalembert, Blair and Williams is probably not enough to build on, but they could still pick up another important piece with RJ’s expiring, and develop some young talent’s before TD rides off into the sunset. That said, Iggy, with his all-around “team” type skills is clearly a key wing player that you can build your team with, which would include two or three other excellent players. Unfortunately, there’s not too many Roy’s & Durant’s around the league. Thus, I’d be happy to settle for Iggy as a key piece to building a title contender any day.
April 4th, 2010 at 2:55 pm
Jim
Alrighty then…………….you’re making up your own facts and wearing me out. I’m gonna agree to disagree.
April 4th, 2010 at 3:28 pm
I can’t believe that anyone who regularly watches the NBA could believe that Andre Igoudala would be a bad fit for the Spurs. The entire NBA doesn’t revolve around the Spurs and there are other good players out there besides the handfull that ESPN continually pimps. Iggy would be absolutely unreal if he were the 3rd option on the Spurs behind Manu and Timmy. If there was a way we could trade cap relief for him (aka Tony or RJ) we should absolutely give it a try. AI is definitely capable of being at least the 3rd option on ANY championship team. Period. Spurs need to get another playmaker and bigman this summer and AI counts for one of those.
April 4th, 2010 at 4:28 pm
For the love of pants…
Ballhog
“Play him one on one with any role player on this roster and he kills them all. Especially your main man Matt.”
So? I mentioned Ians weakness was his poor Defensive rotations and bad lack of any polish on the post.
How does him being able to take Matt Bonner 1 on 1 (something which for gods sake is the most ridiculous conjecture and I will not even start arguing about), have absolutely anything to do with his value to the franchise?
The NBA is littered with project big men who are 7 foot tall and athletic. Fans nearly always fall all over themselves in support right until the day they fade gently away.
April 4th, 2010 at 5:31 pm
Colin
April 4th, 2010 at 2:55 pm
I don’t “make up” facts, I research them, and then present them. If you disagree with any fact that I present, cite your source that contradicts it, but don’t just claim that somebody “makes up facts” without providing evidence to support your contention. That’s like delivering a cheap shot and then running away.
April 4th, 2010 at 5:43 pm
Hobson13
April 4th, 2010 at 3:28 pm
“I can’t believe that anyone who regularly watches the NBA could believe that Andre Igoudala would be a bad fit for the Spurs. ”
Thanks, Hobson. I couldn’t of said it better myself. I was just trying to provide evidence to those that don’t understand, hoping they might learn something. I guess it’s been a waste of my time.
“AI is definitely capable of being at least the 3rd option on ANY championship team.”
I just want to emphasize, “at least”. He could very well be a second option, maybe even a first option (just has to improve his shot a bit more) on the right team. Can you imagine him playing with TD, and a great coach like Pop. It would literally take his game to another level.
April 4th, 2010 at 5:44 pm
Jim
Sorry for the “cheap shot.” You support your opinions well. Maybe you just care more than I do. I don’t have the time to research this stuff for a blog, I have my own research for school that takes up my time. This stuff is just a pleasant distraction from the grind. Any upgrade to our team would be welcomed in my book.
I never said that AI would be a “bad fit.” Without making him the centerpiece, my opinion is that we should shore up the front court BEFORE suiting up a player like him. That’s all.
April 4th, 2010 at 6:22 pm
Collin,
I understand. It does take time to research the pertinent facts. I just think that all of us on here should be a little less firm in our opinions if we don’t take the time to research the facts. And also, I think those of us commenting on the blog should just be more open to others suggestions about how to improve the team, unless we can counter their point with some convincing evidence to the contrary.
And your following point I do wholeheartedly agree with:
“…….my opinion is that we should shore up the front court BEFORE suiting up a player like him. That’s all.”
That’s why Dalembert was actually a critical component to the Iggy trade that I was suggesting. He’s not Tim Duncan, but I think he’s a great fit, and is a top 10/15 center in the league. He gives us youth, height, shot-blocking, defense in the paint, & rebounding — just what we need next to an aging, but still productive Tim Duncan.
Also, if we can somehow keep Ginobli & Parker, and sign a guy like Splitter, plus get a shooter like Kapono, I’m fine with that.
April 5th, 2010 at 8:37 am
Duncan-Howard?? who’s much better? No doubt Tim Duncan is the best. even on this time.. howard’s prime over the present Duncan. still Duncan is the best! Duncan aint done yet.. still hingry. still dominating.. silent operator going for another ring! keep it up!
April 5th, 2010 at 8:55 am
Go Duncan Go!
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