Friday, September 25th, 2009...12:38 pm
Comparing Greatness: ‘05 Spurs vs. ‘08 Celtics
Zach Lowe has a nice article over at Celtics Hub asking whether the ‘08 Celtics were one of the greatest defensive teams of the modern era. And of course, if you are having a conversation about dominant defenses, the Spurs are sure to make an appearance.
Lowe makes an excellent point about the two-tiered history of defensive statistics in the NBA:
Of those 46 teams with sub-100 defensive ratings, 34 played during the hand-check glory years between 1997-8 and 2003-4. Think about that: Over those seven seasons, about five teams per season recorded sub-100 defensive ratings. In fact, the top 19 seasons on the list all in that span.
I know this isn’t news to people who follow the league closely, but people really should consider defensive numbers from those years like earned run averages from the late 1960s, when Major League Baseball raised the mounds and hitters looked like me flailing away in Little League.
Setting that particular period aside, the 2005 Spurs defensive efficiency rating of 98.8 (in other words, 98.8 points allowed per 100 possessions) is the second lowest since the introduction of the 3-point line. Only the ‘94 Knicks, who had an unbelievably low rating of 98.2, were better. But two teams, the ‘08 Celtics and the ‘83 Nets, are hot on our heels with a rating of 98.9.
I was not yet born in 1983 and, although I was a Knicks fan at the time, I was a little too young to have genuine insight into the brick wall that was the ‘94 New York team. But I remember both the ‘05 and ‘08 seasons clearly, and I’ll admit, I’m conflicted as to which defensive unit I was more impressed by (although I bet you can imagine which way I’m leaning). So tell me: Who do you think was the better defensive team, the ‘05 Spurs or the ‘08 Celtics?
26 Comments
September 25th, 2009 at 12:45 pm
05 Spurs but I’m biased. I’m old enough to remember the 94 Knicks, they were just brutes. They would have not been as effective with the current rules.
September 25th, 2009 at 12:48 pm
[...] *Update—it actually is an argument (sort of) for today. The fine gentlemen of the Spurs-themed blog 48MinutesofHell weigh in here. [...]
September 25th, 2009 at 12:56 pm
I’m also not old enough to remember the ‘94 Knicks, though I’ve heard the stories.
I’ll say the ‘05 Spurs. Didn’t Hollinger point out last year that one of the Spurs teams from the middle part of this decade have the all-time defensive efficiency mark? He also pointed out that they have the third place mark as well.
September 25th, 2009 at 1:02 pm
I am surprised to learn that I am older than you. I think the Bulls with Jordan, Pippen and Rodman were the most intimidating defense to face. The Spurs 4 years ago were ridiculous, but they kept some of their vets who should have retired.
We had a great team in ‘07 but we got lucky.
I think that was the only time Horry won a ring where he didn’t actually contribute something amazing. Except for that foul…
September 25th, 2009 at 1:24 pm
Rye,
I don’t remember that Hollinger article, although it wouldn’t surprise me. But if it was a team from later in the decade, it may have been during the hand-checking years that we are bracketing off and considering a separate era.
But either way, if I come across any related info, I’ll let you know.
September 25th, 2009 at 3:38 pm
Graydon,
Found the article.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/trainingcamp08/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=CelticsForecast0809
Scroll down until you see the chart. He’s got the 03-04 Spurs as number one all-time (since league began tracking turnovers in 73-74) in single season defensive efficiency, relative to league. The 04-05 Spurs are fifth.
September 25th, 2009 at 4:05 pm
Rye,
I misspoke earlier. When I said “the later in the decade,” I had misread you and thought you were referring to the ’90s.
But it still fits into my point. Those 03-04 numbers were during the era when the hand-checking rule was different. If you read the quote of Zach Lowe’s that I provided, he explains why we segmented that period off from the discussion.
That being said, some of the efficiency ratings Hollinger provides are different than those Zach used (which were the ones I used as well). It may be that Hollinger calculates the defensive efficiency rating slightly differently (for instance, the number of turnovers, the recording of which he uses as an historical marker, has little impact on one’s ability to calculate points per 100 possessions) but I don’t believe he does.
I’ll contact Zach and get to the bottom of the discrepancy between the statistics he and Hollinger are using.
September 25th, 2009 at 6:23 pm
http://www.nba.com/spurs/features/090925_jefferson.html
in this interview RJ says this:
“Also another thing is the Spurs cheat. They get every call, it’s kind of annoying. Tim never gets in foul trouble. Tony never gets a foul. Manu gets every call. So I am really looking forward to that.”
is this a joke or did the just detriment himself and our team? the new refs wont get too much pay so they wouldnt mind some more money and joey crawford being gone would be just amazing lol
September 25th, 2009 at 9:09 pm
Zainn, how about this quote, “I’ll just say if [Duncan] calls me “Princess Peanut” one more time, we’re probably going to have a fight.”
Haha, I love this stuff!
September 25th, 2009 at 9:34 pm
In the 2008 playoffs, the Celtics faced Atlanta, Cleveland, and Detroit before they played a not-yet-ready Lakers team in the finals. In 2005, the Spurs faced Denver, Seattle, Phoenix and the defending champions, Detroit. During their regular seasons, the 05 Spurs played most of their games against high octane Western Conference offenses, while the 08 Celtics played most of its games against a weaker Eastern Conference.
If you look at who these two teams played, I think the Spurs are the more impressive. And, yes, I’m biased.
September 25th, 2009 at 10:31 pm
I have a great way to settle this debate on which one of those two teams is better: make them play 82 games against each other. Too bad the only way we can is with video games. And I’m not even sure that’s possible, but wort a shot. As a Celtics fan, I have a hard time even figuring this one out, but it would be a ton of fun to watch.
September 25th, 2009 at 10:49 pm
The conference bias is completely valid, IMO. I know we are supposedly throwing away the 2003-04 results, but look at the disparity between the East and West on offense that season:
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/standings?season=2004
If we look at the 2007-08 season, the offensive averages are even further tilted toward the Western teams.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/standings?season=2008
I wish I could find the offensive efficiency ratings instead of going by PPG, as it would be more accurate. But the PPG stats show how dramatic the difference was between the conferences. That’s not to say that ‘08 Boston team didn’t have great team defense - they stopped the Lakers, after all - but they played 2/3 of their games against opponents from a statistically weaker conference.
Anyhow, let’s hope we can settle this once and for all in the 2010 Finals.
September 25th, 2009 at 11:17 pm
To play devil’s advocate, the ‘08 Celtics did go 12-4 against Western Conference playoff teams during the regular season, including regular season sweeps of the Lakers, Spurs, Houston and Dallas. Their Eastern Conference opponents may have been a bit less impressive, but they were impressive against the West’s top teams as well.
September 26th, 2009 at 6:03 am
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September 26th, 2009 at 7:08 am
I realize the parameters of discussion are only for the “non-hand checking era” (what a great descriptor) but I’m curious how the Spurs fared in the “hand check era”. Also, the original author implies that the “hand check era” was an aberration but I wonder if the “non-hand check era” could be considered normal basketball and the recent era is in fact the aberration, inspired, I would imagine, by a push from Stern and the league to keep scoring up and to “clean up the game” from any small threat of violence.
Back to defense. To me the greatest defensive team of all time is the 99 Spurs. I understand they played under different rules from what came later, but still, they played under the same rules as everybody else at the time. I wouldn’t be surprised if the 05 team was more efficient, but the 99 team was way more intimidating with two legitimate shot blockers and they were driven by a singular focus on defense,.
GG, I’m curious to read your thoughts on this issue.
September 26th, 2009 at 7:33 am
I like the point that Jones makes. I would probably agree as far as a “defensive presence”, regardless of statistics, that was probably our best year.
September 26th, 2009 at 7:59 am
Definitely gonna have to go with the 05 Spurs. Although I’m not sure what kind of games were played when Boston had the 12-4 record against the Western Conference last year, but in the 2005 playoffs in every series (but Phoenix) the Spurs played a hard-nosed, grind it out defense that eventually wore down all their opponents, especially in the Detroit series, where scoring in the crucial games was in the 80’s and 90’s(and 70’s for game 7).
Meanwhile it took the Celtics 7 games for Atlanta and Cleveland, many of those games were high scoring affairs as well. They played pretty good defense in the Detroit series and versus LA they did as well, but in that Finals series I just think Boston overpowered them on the frontline. To me, it seemed like Boston relied on their Big 3’s offensive ablitiy and Kevin Garnett’s defensive ability to win games. The 05 Spurs also relied on their big 3, but it was more so their defense that propelled them.
September 26th, 2009 at 9:58 am
05 Spurs’ statistical record was IMO badly affected by that ugly ankle sprain Duncan sustained in the opening minutes of an away game in Detroit during March.
September 26th, 2009 at 1:03 pm
The`99 Spurs.
September 26th, 2009 at 1:29 pm
Thanks for sharing that RJ interview. sounds like he is fitting in great from a chemistry standpoint. lets hope that translates on the court. i’m pretty confident it will.
September 26th, 2009 at 4:12 pm
Graydon,
I guess I missed or glossed over the part about the hand check rules coming into effect after 03-04, but figured the link would be useful as a comparison anyway (between Lowe’s system and Hollinger’s). I’m still going with the ‘05 Spurs though. Some of the comments in this thread have only solidified that thought for me.
September 27th, 2009 at 7:45 pm
I’m gonna chime in and say that the ‘99 Spurs definitely had the the best interior defense with a spry Duncan and a Robinson with a few years left.
The 05 Spurs had better team defense with Bowen and Ginobili in top form and Parker coming into his own (compared to the 03 Spurs). The frontline was weaker than 99 this year because Timmy was coming off an ankle injury and was noticeably slower. And even though Nazr Mohommad did a solid job that year for the Spurs, he’s no ‘99 Robinson. He’s not even an 03 Robinson.
As for ‘08 Celtics, I’d say they were right up there. The ‘08 Lakers (w/o Bynum or Ariza but with a productive Vujacic, Radmonovic and Farmar)
were a better team than the ‘99 Knicks, the ‘03 Nets and (probably) the ‘05 Pistons.
And remember, Kendrick Perkins was out for part of the 08 Finals as well.
The ‘08 Celtics front line was not as good as the ‘99 Spurs. No way Garnett and Perkins can compare to the Twin Towers in ‘99. On the other hand Garnett (defensive player of the year that year), Perkins and PJ Brown were probably about the same as ‘05 Duncan (slightly hobbled) and Mohammed.
‘08 Rondo and Pierce were GREAT defenders. I’d say it is a wash when you compare ‘05 Bowen and Parker. Bowen being the best of course, but remember the job Pierce did on Kobe? I’d give the slight edge to Rondo on the defensive end over Parker but it’s very close.
That leaves Ginobili vs. Ray Allen/James Posey. Tough. Tough. Tough. I’d go with Ginobli, but I’m biased
I love this topic, my favorite team vs. my second favorite team!
September 27th, 2009 at 8:05 pm
Ah, I forgot, we had Horry in 05 too. That should put us over the top in the 05 Spurs vs 08 Celtics.
As for ‘99 vs ‘05 Spurs, no way Elliot, Ellie and Johnson compare to Bowen, Ginobili and Parker on defense right? I’d like to hear what you think about this cuz ‘99 was a ways back…
September 28th, 2009 at 6:41 am
I know this is a little on the late side, but in that RJ interview when he made the comment about the Spus cheating, I think his humor is very tongue-in-cheek. Very dry. He and TD will get along fabulously!
On-Topic: I’ll take the ‘05 Spurs. They faced consistently better competition throughout their season and were more consistent overall, with fewer peaks and valleys, so to speak.
September 30th, 2009 at 12:24 am
The point made about West competition vs East competition made my point. Spurs consistently faced better opponents, both regular season and playoffs.
October 29th, 2009 at 9:45 am
[...] all the offense available in Kevin Garnett, Ray Allen, Paul Pierce and Rajon Rondo, it was Boston’s stingy defense that overturned the Lakers’ apple cart in ‘07-08. The same stingy defense is needed for the Spurs to maneuver past the Lakers this [...]
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